Pakistanis in Afghanistan, Nothing New

Amit--27

``faanoos bunn kay jiss kee hifazat havaa karay

voh shammaa kyaa bujhhay,jisay roshan khudaa kray``

Fanoos:lamp glass,chandelier.

There is complete calm & serenity in the eye of the hurricane or tornado.Only those on the periphery are flailing & thrashing about.

How beautifuly has the poet utilised this in the above couplet.

``Islam tiraa deis hai,too mustafavee hai.``

My country is Islam,my citizenship travels with me & no one has the power to take it away from me.The rest of the activity in the world is abode & transport management which must be entrusted to those most capable professionally,irrespective of creed or color.Such material management is called secularism....& it is & will always be harnessed by belief whether enunciated in constituition,Bill,Manifestos,or earth-motherhood.

re: stuka

{{Jithey AnNy da sawal hai, meri mat maree gayyee hai kee udey naal panga lewan? :) Changi kudi hai, Sameer saab, gustakhi maaf, post tey mai waise dal ditta see.}}

...cut it out..no funny languages allowed...stick with hindu/urdu or English...

Amit #27
`` because in the long run Indian nationalism is no match against Islam``
If you are speaking wrt Kashmir, have you forgotten that India has Muslims too?

If you are speaking generally, are you saying India cannot survive as a multireligious country?

The negative emotions of hatred for others cannot provide a firm foundation for anything meaningful, the instances you mention are not instances of Islamic fervor but of hatred of India/Hindus.

Re:SameerJB#24

Sameer, you have certainly more insights about the muslim world than I have. I was observing the phenomena in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where young people from well to do families show passion for their religion at a level that I can barely imagine, including a willingness to give up their lives. I will give you two examples.

Recently on CNN, there was an interview with a family in Islamabad. The family was economically well off and living in a posh house. The oldest son was openly saying that he wants to join jihad against USA and his parents did not seem to be too upset about it. Similarly, I was watching a local Pakistani channel in Chicago called Pakwatan TV, which airs some really nice shows on Pakistani music. They were telecasting their annual banquet, where various cultural events were taking place. At the end, a six year old boy came on the stage and launched a vitriolic attack against India and Hinduism. He was saying that India attacked its own parliament, India would break up like Russia etc. and finally he was mocking multi-handed gods and godesses etc. Now if this was a Jamaat function, that would be understandable, but here well to do Pakistani Americans in Chicago were wildly cheering on this young kid in a Pakistani function.

My point is that Islam is an extremely powerful faith, whose impact is really profound on people. It is an entire way of life and it influences people to a degree that cannot be imagined in other religions. I think non-muslims need to understand it and not get offended by it; rahter they should respect it as a unique attribute of Islam. If some Pakistanis think that they can circumvent the religion and establish a secular system, they are clearly underestimating the faith. A more realistic approach is for Pakistan to build a system around their religion. In the same vein, India should really evaluate whether it can hold on to Kashmir, because in the long run Indian nationalism is no match against Islam and I doubt whether Kashmiris will ever become Indians.

SammerJB

Thank you for the invitation. Would love to be part of any such brotherhood. I noticed your presence on WWW.APNAORG.ORG and read some of your thoughts there. It is an excellent website.

Jithey AnNy da sawal hai, meri mat maree gayyee hai kee udey naal panga lewan? :) Changi kudi hai, Sameer saab, gustakhi maaf, post tey mai waise dal ditta see.

Ref SameerJB #: 24

[Why would, otherwise, god has forsaken Muslims in favor of non-Muslims?]

On another board I had asked the questions: Is Allak playing you guys for fools? Was Prophet Muhammad playing a huge practical joke on you guys?

You must admit that those two possibilities are within the thoretical, but not theocratic, realm!

Good article Khar Saheb; consider it additionally a welcome from a Rajput to a Jat. Lets have this bond of Punjabi identities transcend the Islamic brotherhood feeling Amit is talking about. And you too, Stuka, could join the brotherhood but only after you stop altercation with my friend, AnNy :)

Amit the feeling you are talking about is really a manufactured feeling. The consent building through extremely one-sided and mythologized Islamic education in Muslim countries over a long period has succeeded in creating a sympathy for each other among the have-nots of Islamic world. The haves really don`t give a damn about the phenomenon you are talking about. The Saudis and other Sheikhs, for example do nothing for Muslims in need except buying influence and new wives. The common feeling of Islamic untouchables or shudras, the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indians, Afghans etc feel for each other more than Somalis dying in thousands during famine. The Shudra Pakistani peace Keeping forces imbued with pan-Islamic feeling went there and befriended with Muslim Somalis until one day they ambushed and mowed down 25 of them in cold blood. You will be surprised to know the feelings in Islamabad towards Afghan refugees. There is almost total mutual alienation and deep hostilities between them. Only thing Muslims are united is hate for rich, non-Muslims and Western cultures. Leaving aside the contribution of jealousy, it has to do with feeling of following the only true godly path and yet others beating the sh1t out of them in prosperity, progress, good governance and just society. Somehow they feel it is due to colonialism, neo-colonialism, cheating, plundering and stealing. Why would, otherwise, god has forsaken Muslims in favor of non-Muslims?

Muslims have killed lot more Muslims fighting among themselves than fighting against non-Muslims throughout history.

Moreover, where state sponsored fantasizing Islam is weak, as in villages, the brotherhood feeling towards anybody except within village is non-existent.

All you can really say is that those who actually think the way you mentioned are more vocal, vulgar, arrogant, law breaker, bearded and so on.

There are always good reasons for any phenomenon. Perhaps ome billion Muslims around the world are a reminder and proof of evolution. I wonder why the heck Darwin had to go to Galapagos Islands? This last one is just a joke!!!

YLH:

Imo Gandhi did not support Khilafat for cynical reasons. You have to understand that religion was a big part of Gandhi`s life, and I think he just felt more comfortable with people who were religious in nature, be they Hindu or Muslim.

I don`t think Gandhi was capable of seperating religion and politics at all. His secularism was ``respect for all religions`` rather than it being ``seperation of church and state``. Jinnah`s secularism was the latter. He was a man of this world, not the next, and therein lied the essential difference between the two. In fact the former is the definition of secularism in the Indian constitution rather than the latter, leading to (again, in my personal opinion) problems, because where does the respect stop.

this is in reply to Mr Amit, you have good relations with Iran for one reason that you do not

share a border with them ,secondly a common

History and what is the point you are trying to make here???? to become like iran to have good relation with india, but iam soory ....if only it was so easy, hey!we have good relations with CHINA

though,hint hint ....

Reply Amit # 20

``Unlike other religions, Islam is unique in its ability to evoke very strong passions on a very large scale. As a hindu, I find it hard to understand...I can never imagine any hindu dying for his religion...``

Hmmm...run this by a Ram Bhakt and see if they agree with you.

Khar Sahib,

I think it is very important to analyze the macro effect of Islam on a community. Unlike other religions, Islam is unique in its ability to evoke very strong passions on a very large scale. As a hindu, I find it hard to understand but I think Islam creates a feeling of an extended family. Just as one gets very emotional about one`s family, the same way muslims feel a sense of belonging that generates extremely strong impulses regarding the faith. For instance, I can never imagine any hindu dying for his religion, whereas it is a glorious thing for muslims. So, when you have such a powerful force in your midst, how do you handle it ?

One option is the Turkish model which tries to suppress this force. This model has not been very successful and it has no chance of widespread implementation. The second option is autocratic rule by sultans, dictators etc. who tend to exploit this force to latch on to power. The results are really lousy, as has been proven with Pakistan. The third option is the Iranian model that embraces Islam and develops a democratic structure around it. This is a very difficult process, but it is perhaps the only reasonable manner to develop a democratic, civil society in a Islamic nation. A key thing to remember is that a conservative, religious society does not have to be a fanatical society, that indulges in foreign policy adventures. Maybe an Iranian type model may ultimately prove to be ideal for Pakistan. By the way, Iran has excellent relations with India.

Well stuka .. atleast Jinnah was not criticized for the supporting the obscurantist Khilafat movement.. :) that honor was left for Gandhi and Ali Brothers.

``weren`t hesitant in criticizing leaders like Gandhi, Jauhar Brothers and Jinnah. ``

HAIN???? Kya kaha? criticized Jinnah? yeh kaisey ho sakta hai. Duniya key akeley farishtey ke Tauheen hai yeh. All because Gandhi made him look bad ;)

Romair:

``One wants to convert Pakistan into Turkey, the other into Saudi Arabia. ``

Very true, very true. Let Pakistan be Pakistan, according to it`s own soul. Neither of the two countries above are great role models. If you are to take a role model, then India under BJP would be a good one. I don`t mean this sarcastically at all

http://atimes.com/ind-pak/DB06Df01.html

Pakistan shifts proxy war to India`s east

By Sultan Shahin

Map

NEW DELHI - The Indian government is gradually coming round to the view that the attack on policemen guarding the American Center in Kolkata on January 22 marks the shifting of the theater of Pakistan`s proxy war.

Though official spokespeople continue to claim that militant infiltration in Kashmir is continuing on the previous scale, a feeling is growing that the focus of Pakistan-sponsored terrorist activities is now moving to India`s east and northeast, as Pakistan may not be able to defy strong international pressure to close shop in Kashmir.

A realization is gradually dawning upon India`s security officials that Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency has been preparing for such an eventuality for a long time. As well-informed analyst Hiranmay Karlekar writes in his column in the Pioneer newspaper (January 25): ``The ISI, in collaboration with sections of Bangladesh`s intelligence outfits and fundamentalist Islamic organizations, has been training and supporting northeast Indian insurgent outfits like the United Liberation Front of Asom [Assam] (ULFA), both Khaplang and the Isaac Swu-Thuingaleng Muivah groups of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (NSCN), Bodo rebels in Assam and tribal insurgents in Tripura for years.

``Its plans include the separation of the whole of northeastern India from the rest of the country and the creation of an autonomous Islamic state in the northeast comprising parts of Assam, Nagaland and Myanmar. Should it ever come close to success in implementing its plans, trouble in the Siliguri-Islampur corridor, hampering movement of troops and supplies to the northeastern states, would be of critical advantage to it.``

According to Indian government sources, the basic objective of the ISI in Bangladesh is intelligence encirclement of India. It uses the strategy of supporting and fomenting insurgency in India`s northeast and encouraging militants of various shades in different parts of India. It makes direct use of Bangladesh territory to infiltrate its agents and saboteurs across the border.

Of particular advantage to the ISI is the long and porous India-Bangladesh border which makes crossings either way easy, particularly when there are elements all along it to facilitate the process. According to reports in the Pakistani media, India has recently moved more forces to the India-Bangladesh border. This may be part of an effort to stop or at least reduce infiltration of militants from this border.

The recent incident in Kolkata is not the first of its kind in West Bengal. On December 22, 1994, two boys in Domkal in West Bengal`s Murshidabad district discovered several bombs very near a temporary dais from which Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee, now chief minister of West Bengal and then an important minister, was to address a public meeting on December 24 along with other functionaries of the Communist Party of India (Marxist) (CPI-M).

This may explain why Bhattacharjee has gone out of his way in condemning and acting against the latest terrorist outrage, though his colleagues in the party were not inclined initially to implicate Pakistan or the ISI. CPI-M politburo member Sitaram Yechury had indeed accused Home Minister Lal Krishan Advani as having ``jumped the gun`` in pointing fingers at the ISI without adequate information.

Having investigated the Domkal incident, reports Karlekar, India`s Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) concluded that an organization called Ahl-e-Hadith (AeH) was involved. The same organization, it further believed, was behind five explosions that occurred on trains in different parts of India on December 6, 1993, the first anniversary of the demolition of the Babri Mosque, and 42 others - not including the serial bomb blasts in Bombay on March 12, 1993 - in various parts of the country from 1988 to 1993.

One reason for this conclusion was that the explosives used in the Domkal bombs were the same as in the five train and 42 other blasts. The Domkal bombs also had the same kind of timers the five railway bombs had. Besides, the other 42 blasts had occurred in areas marked by acute communal tension where they could have triggered riots. Murshidabad district had been such an area for quite some time then. The CBI also believed that three of the five people sought for questioning in connection with the blasts were hiding in West Bengal.

The CBI was convinced that the ISI was behind the bombs. The conculsion is corroborated by Yossef Bodansky in his book Bin Laden: The Man Who Declared War on America. ``The ISI actively assists bin Laden in the establishment of an Islamic infrastructure in India ... The primary venues for the distribution of Islamic literature and incitement material are the institutions run by the Ahl-i-Hadith religious charity which is associated with Lashkar-i-Toiba, an Islamist Kashmiri organization.`` Under the command of Abdul Karim Tunda, the Lashkar-i-Toiba is already responsible ``for several bomb explosions``.

Thus by the end of 1994, according to Karlekar`s information, the ISI, which had started operating with the utmost freedom in Bangladesh after Begum Khaleda Zia became prime minister in 1991, had already established a significant presence in West Bengal and was even in a position to shelter wanted persons from other parts of India in the state. Using Bangladesh as its springboard and aided by West Bengal state government`s complacency, it extended its network far and wide in the state in the next few years, using it as a staging area for its agents entering from Bangladesh to carry out terrorist acts in other parts of India and for sending people from different parts of India to Bangladesh for onward journey to Pakistan and Afghanistan for training as agents. It established ``safe houses``, planted ``sleepers`` - agents who merged with the local people and remained dormant for long periods before acting - and centers for recruiting agents.

The ISI built up a substantial presence in several areas of Kolkata and almost all districts of the state bordering Bangladesh - with the Siliguri subdivision of Darjeeling district in the north receiving particular attention. All this was dramatically brought to light in January 1999, when Delhi police arrested Syed Abu Nasir, a Bangladeshi who had crossed over from Bangladesh to bomb the US Embassy in Delhi and the US Consulate General in Chennai. He reportedly revealed during interrogation that he and his team of nine had gathered in Kolkata in December 1998. From there, the three Indian members had been sent to Siliguri to establish a support base in collaboration with ISI agents stationed there, while the six ``Afghans`` - a generic term used to signify Afghans as well as various Arab and other terrorists trained in Afghanistan by al-Qaeda - went to Chennai. The three Indians who went to Siliguri were subsequently arrested while the six ``Afghans`` managed to disappear.

The ISI`s activities in the area attracted further attention during the Kargil war when a blast in a train in North Jalpaiguri station on June 24, 1999, directed at a group of soldiers traveling to Kashmir, killed two of them and injured 16. There were several other attempts to sabotage the movement of troops and equipment from northeastern to northwestern India. These incidents clearly underlined the reason for the ISI`s activities in Siliguri. Northeastern India`s sole direct land link with the rest of the country passes through the subdivision, particularly the narrow Siliguri-Islampur corridor.

Indeed, according to Indian intelligence sources, the ISI has long been providing assistance to insurgents in the northeast in a variety of ways, including helping them run their training camps in Bangladesh. After the installation of the Awami League government in Bangladesh in 1996, the Indian insurgent groups were asked to leave Bangladeshi soil. But dominant groups such as the National Socialist Council of Nagaland-Isaac Swu/Muivah (NSCN-I/M), ULFA, All Tripura Tiger Force (ATTF) and National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) continued to function in that country in a more covert manner by forging local-level links with Bangladeshi security forces.

Initially, in March/April 1997, Indian intelligence sources perceived some decline in insurgent activities and the militants, mainly belonging to ULFA and NSCN-I/M, had started winding up their overt activities and shifting their camps temporarily to Myanmar. But through support from such parties as the Bangladesh National Party (BNP), Jamaat-e-Islami (JEI) and Freedom Party (FP), the militants started reorganizing themselves and re-established their camps in Bangladesh.

The ISI has managed to establish a rather intricate network in Bangladesh, thanks to the presence of the residue of pro-Pakistan sympathizers after 1971 and the influence it wielded between 1975 and 1996 when the Awami League was out of power. The period from 1991 to 1996, when Khaleda Zia was prime minister of the BNP government, proved particularly fruitful. During this period the ISI was not only able to subvert various local agencies, including the army, but also ran training camps for northeast Indian insurgents with the consent of the government.

After the Awami League government took power in June 1996, there was a review of government policy and official patronage of such anti-India activities was withdrawn. However, on account of loyalties built up over the years, and religious indoctrination and rampant corruption in the ranks of both Indian and Bangladeshi security forces, networks continued to facilitate movement of Indian insurgent leaders and also supply these groups with arms.

The ISI obviously realizes the importance of mobilizing anti-India and pro-Pakistan political elements in Bangladesh and bringing them to power with a view to securing state patronage. It has therefore nurtured the BNP while in and out of power, shoring it up up politically and financially. It has done the same with various rightist parties such as the FP and JEI. More recently the ISI has been playing a leading role in patching together an alliance between these rightist parties and assisting them in devising and launching a strategy to dislodge the Awami League from power.

After June 1996, on account of an unfriendly party being in power in Bagladesh, the ISI has had to give up its earlier brazenness and work covertly through various channels. While some operations are still controlled from the local Pakistani mission - where the ISI unit was said to be headed by A H Qureshi, a minister-rank official - a larger part of anti-Indian activities are conducted through various mosques, madrasas (seminaries) and attached training camps across the country, and through Pakistani agents and facilitators placed in various private organizations and political parties. There has also been liberal use of the country`s press for anti-India propaganda with communal overtones. The aim is to keep anti-India feelings high so that no government is ever in a position to accede to Indian requests for information about northeastern militants, and to stalemate Indian influence in Bangladesh.

The ISI makes use of prominent Bangladeshi names and institutions for its purposes. Indian officials cite the example of the Beximco Group - which employs about 600 Pakistanis and whose owners, Sohel and Solman Rahman, are alleged to have pro-Pakistan sympathies. Beximco Group has been allegedly used as conduit for funds to the BNP. Prominent local politicians Salauddin Qader Chowdhury, Syed Iskander (brother of Khaleda Zia) and Anwar Zahed, who are ensconced in the BNP, are alleged to have a well-documented history of indulging in arms trafficking into India`s northeast.

A number of other commercial establishments, namely Ibnesina, Islami Bank, Habib Bank, Pak Land and Lever Brothers, with known Pakistani links, and front organizations of fundamentalist parties like the JEI, Tablighi Jamaat, Jamaat-e-Tulaba and Jamaat-ul-Mudarreseen, allegedly serve the interests of the ISI. Moreover, Pakistan sympathizers within the army, various intelligence agencies and the bureaucracy continue to aid the ISI.

Indian officials allege that apart from intelligence operations conducted by Pakistan`s mission in Dhaka, agents are being sent directly from Pakistan for specific tasks such as training, briefing, supervising, providing funds, and meeting with militants. Some people collaborate with the ISI for political and religious reasons. Salahuddin Qader Choudhary and his brother Giasuddin Choudhary - both BNP leaders and alleged arms smugglers - are actively involved in abetting fundamentalists, militant groups such as Harkat-ul-Jihad, and rightist political parties such as JEI and IOJ. Notorious terrorist Abdul Karim Tunda from Chittagong, and Pakistan-trained alleged terrorist Asif Khan, who visited India to foment trouble during the last general elections, fall into this category.

The ISI is also said to have connections with non-governmental organizations such as Islamic Relief Organization and Junudul Muqawat Al Islamiya, as well as with madrasas such as Rabeta in Ramu, Cox`s Bazaar. The latter is a nerve center of all ISI operations in Greater Chittagong. Pakistani agents regularly visit and hold meetings there with Indian outfits like ULFA, NSCN-I/M, NLFT, and All Tripura Tiger Force.

The ISI`s intelligence operations include provision of funds to political parties - Gholam Azam of JEI and Salahuddin Qader Choudhary of BNP are allegedly to have received huge amounts for fomenting agitations - and militant outfits on Bangladesh, India and Myanmar. It also organizes recruitment and dispatch of potential mujahideen from madrasas and the youth wings of JEI, Shibir, IOJ etc, for induction into Indian territory to create disturbances.

If Indian apprehensions are correct, the east and northeast may present even greater challenges for Indian security agencies than does insurgency in Kashmir. If reports of India having increased its strength along the border with Bangladesh are correct, it may mean that India is already conscious of the dangers represented by ISI networks and its ambitions in the area. Since Pakistan does not have a border with India in the east, India may not even be able to denounce this in the familiar terminology of cross-border terrorism.

Reply Hamzad Afaqui # 14

``It is this `education`` which is the real bane of our society.``

Clearly sour grapes.