Pakistanis in Afghanistan, Nothing New

Romair:

``One wants to convert Pakistan into Turkey, the other into Saudi Arabia. ``

Very true, very true. Let Pakistan be Pakistan, according to it`s own soul. Neither of the two countries above are great role models. If you are to take a role model, then India under BJP would be a good one. I don`t mean this sarcastically at all

``weren`t hesitant in criticizing leaders like Gandhi, Jauhar Brothers and Jinnah. ``

HAIN???? Kya kaha? criticized Jinnah? yeh kaisey ho sakta hai. Duniya key akeley farishtey ke Tauheen hai yeh. All because Gandhi made him look bad ;)

Well stuka .. atleast Jinnah was not criticized for the supporting the obscurantist Khilafat movement.. :) that honor was left for Gandhi and Ali Brothers.

Khar Sahib,

I think it is very important to analyze the macro effect of Islam on a community. Unlike other religions, Islam is unique in its ability to evoke very strong passions on a very large scale. As a hindu, I find it hard to understand but I think Islam creates a feeling of an extended family. Just as one gets very emotional about one`s family, the same way muslims feel a sense of belonging that generates extremely strong impulses regarding the faith. For instance, I can never imagine any hindu dying for his religion, whereas it is a glorious thing for muslims. So, when you have such a powerful force in your midst, how do you handle it ?

One option is the Turkish model which tries to suppress this force. This model has not been very successful and it has no chance of widespread implementation. The second option is autocratic rule by sultans, dictators etc. who tend to exploit this force to latch on to power. The results are really lousy, as has been proven with Pakistan. The third option is the Iranian model that embraces Islam and develops a democratic structure around it. This is a very difficult process, but it is perhaps the only reasonable manner to develop a democratic, civil society in a Islamic nation. A key thing to remember is that a conservative, religious society does not have to be a fanatical society, that indulges in foreign policy adventures. Maybe an Iranian type model may ultimately prove to be ideal for Pakistan. By the way, Iran has excellent relations with India.

Reply Amit # 20

``Unlike other religions, Islam is unique in its ability to evoke very strong passions on a very large scale. As a hindu, I find it hard to understand...I can never imagine any hindu dying for his religion...``

Hmmm...run this by a Ram Bhakt and see if they agree with you.

this is in reply to Mr Amit, you have good relations with Iran for one reason that you do not

share a border with them ,secondly a common

History and what is the point you are trying to make here???? to become like iran to have good relation with india, but iam soory ....if only it was so easy, hey!we have good relations with CHINA

though,hint hint ....

YLH:

Imo Gandhi did not support Khilafat for cynical reasons. You have to understand that religion was a big part of Gandhi`s life, and I think he just felt more comfortable with people who were religious in nature, be they Hindu or Muslim.

I don`t think Gandhi was capable of seperating religion and politics at all. His secularism was ``respect for all religions`` rather than it being ``seperation of church and state``. Jinnah`s secularism was the latter. He was a man of this world, not the next, and therein lied the essential difference between the two. In fact the former is the definition of secularism in the Indian constitution rather than the latter, leading to (again, in my personal opinion) problems, because where does the respect stop.

Good article Khar Saheb; consider it additionally a welcome from a Rajput to a Jat. Lets have this bond of Punjabi identities transcend the Islamic brotherhood feeling Amit is talking about. And you too, Stuka, could join the brotherhood but only after you stop altercation with my friend, AnNy :)

Amit the feeling you are talking about is really a manufactured feeling. The consent building through extremely one-sided and mythologized Islamic education in Muslim countries over a long period has succeeded in creating a sympathy for each other among the have-nots of Islamic world. The haves really don`t give a damn about the phenomenon you are talking about. The Saudis and other Sheikhs, for example do nothing for Muslims in need except buying influence and new wives. The common feeling of Islamic untouchables or shudras, the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indians, Afghans etc feel for each other more than Somalis dying in thousands during famine. The Shudra Pakistani peace Keeping forces imbued with pan-Islamic feeling went there and befriended with Muslim Somalis until one day they ambushed and mowed down 25 of them in cold blood. You will be surprised to know the feelings in Islamabad towards Afghan refugees. There is almost total mutual alienation and deep hostilities between them. Only thing Muslims are united is hate for rich, non-Muslims and Western cultures. Leaving aside the contribution of jealousy, it has to do with feeling of following the only true godly path and yet others beating the sh1t out of them in prosperity, progress, good governance and just society. Somehow they feel it is due to colonialism, neo-colonialism, cheating, plundering and stealing. Why would, otherwise, god has forsaken Muslims in favor of non-Muslims?

Muslims have killed lot more Muslims fighting among themselves than fighting against non-Muslims throughout history.

Moreover, where state sponsored fantasizing Islam is weak, as in villages, the brotherhood feeling towards anybody except within village is non-existent.

All you can really say is that those who actually think the way you mentioned are more vocal, vulgar, arrogant, law breaker, bearded and so on.

There are always good reasons for any phenomenon. Perhaps ome billion Muslims around the world are a reminder and proof of evolution. I wonder why the heck Darwin had to go to Galapagos Islands? This last one is just a joke!!!

Ref SameerJB #: 24

[Why would, otherwise, god has forsaken Muslims in favor of non-Muslims?]

On another board I had asked the questions: Is Allak playing you guys for fools? Was Prophet Muhammad playing a huge practical joke on you guys?

You must admit that those two possibilities are within the thoretical, but not theocratic, realm!

SammerJB

Thank you for the invitation. Would love to be part of any such brotherhood. I noticed your presence on WWW.APNAORG.ORG and read some of your thoughts there. It is an excellent website.

Jithey AnNy da sawal hai, meri mat maree gayyee hai kee udey naal panga lewan? :) Changi kudi hai, Sameer saab, gustakhi maaf, post tey mai waise dal ditta see.

Re:SameerJB#24

Sameer, you have certainly more insights about the muslim world than I have. I was observing the phenomena in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where young people from well to do families show passion for their religion at a level that I can barely imagine, including a willingness to give up their lives. I will give you two examples.

Recently on CNN, there was an interview with a family in Islamabad. The family was economically well off and living in a posh house. The oldest son was openly saying that he wants to join jihad against USA and his parents did not seem to be too upset about it. Similarly, I was watching a local Pakistani channel in Chicago called Pakwatan TV, which airs some really nice shows on Pakistani music. They were telecasting their annual banquet, where various cultural events were taking place. At the end, a six year old boy came on the stage and launched a vitriolic attack against India and Hinduism. He was saying that India attacked its own parliament, India would break up like Russia etc. and finally he was mocking multi-handed gods and godesses etc. Now if this was a Jamaat function, that would be understandable, but here well to do Pakistani Americans in Chicago were wildly cheering on this young kid in a Pakistani function.

My point is that Islam is an extremely powerful faith, whose impact is really profound on people. It is an entire way of life and it influences people to a degree that cannot be imagined in other religions. I think non-muslims need to understand it and not get offended by it; rahter they should respect it as a unique attribute of Islam. If some Pakistanis think that they can circumvent the religion and establish a secular system, they are clearly underestimating the faith. A more realistic approach is for Pakistan to build a system around their religion. In the same vein, India should really evaluate whether it can hold on to Kashmir, because in the long run Indian nationalism is no match against Islam and I doubt whether Kashmiris will ever become Indians.

Amit #27
`` because in the long run Indian nationalism is no match against Islam``
If you are speaking wrt Kashmir, have you forgotten that India has Muslims too?

If you are speaking generally, are you saying India cannot survive as a multireligious country?

The negative emotions of hatred for others cannot provide a firm foundation for anything meaningful, the instances you mention are not instances of Islamic fervor but of hatred of India/Hindus.

re: stuka

{{Jithey AnNy da sawal hai, meri mat maree gayyee hai kee udey naal panga lewan? :) Changi kudi hai, Sameer saab, gustakhi maaf, post tey mai waise dal ditta see.}}

...cut it out..no funny languages allowed...stick with hindu/urdu or English...

Amit--27

``faanoos bunn kay jiss kee hifazat havaa karay

voh shammaa kyaa bujhhay,jisay roshan khudaa kray``

Fanoos:lamp glass,chandelier.

There is complete calm & serenity in the eye of the hurricane or tornado.Only those on the periphery are flailing & thrashing about.

How beautifuly has the poet utilised this in the above couplet.

``Islam tiraa deis hai,too mustafavee hai.``

My country is Islam,my citizenship travels with me & no one has the power to take it away from me.The rest of the activity in the world is abode & transport management which must be entrusted to those most capable professionally,irrespective of creed or color.Such material management is called secularism....& it is & will always be harnessed by belief whether enunciated in constituition,Bill,Manifestos,or earth-motherhood.

re: Amit

{{ My point is that Islam is an extremely powerful faith, whose impact is really profound on people. It is an entire way of life and it influences people to a degree that cannot be imagined in other religions. I think non-muslims need to understand it and not get offended by it; rahter they should respect it as a unique attribute of Islam. }}

it is not that easy...Islam has an in-your-face quality, which inevitably offends non-Muslims...of course there are individual Muslims who are exceptions, but the religion as a whole is different...Islam is a complete way of life, with a very large public aspect...non-Muslim countries can never provide that public aspect to Muslims...therein lies the source of much friction...

Amit

``. I think non-muslims need to understand it and not get offended by it; rahter they should respect it as a unique attribute of Islam.``

Great, we ae not offended. And all of us Hindus should castrate ourselves and bow before the ``such`` Muslims,and join in their cheering. The non-Moslems(read Hindus) should respect Muslims who slap them and abuse their religion. Wah, kya kahne. Is this the result of slavish mentality your upbringing has engendered in you. A man without a modicum of self-respect is worse than animals. Thank God, there are more self-respecting Hindus than you would ever think. The Indian nationalism and civilization has survived and flourished for 5000 years by its own innate strength and will continue to do so in future. We dont need your advice, Sir.