Empty Vessels And All That Jazz

Zeemax #170
``Actually I was only stating the underlying historical reasons for the conflict and you`re still stuck in cliches`.``

Zeemax, the way I see it, in the biblical and Quranic conflicts a persecuted people like yours are unfortunately engaged in, I am on the opposite side from you. In such conflicts there is nothing to discuss, there is only to fight.
Best wishes.

Syed #148 Thanks for your knowledgable post. Seems like these Jewish tribes needed a good map and compass to keep from getting lost.

I also heard of a thirteenth tribe (I have no idea what happened to the 11th an 12th ones, but presumably they did not get lost like the ten tribes you mention). This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews. But what do I know...

Reply #: 158 tahmed321

`much of the foreign capital is owned by expatriate chinese. Li-Ka Shing, for example, is among the handful of multibillionaires in the world and a well-known source of foreign capital`

Although this post wasn`t addressed to me but Li-Ka-Shing pricked up my ears. There are several major problems with this statement.I hope you won`t mind the intervention.

Li Ka Shing is (1) not an expatriate Chinese as he lives in Hong Kong which is China now and; (2) he not only never invested in China, but also disinvesting from Hong Kong since it returned to Chinese sovereignty in 1997. He does have close contacts with the Chinese Administration though. His two major vehicles are Hutchison Whampoa which is telecommunications, and Cheung Kong Holdings, which is Real-Estate. Hutchison Whampoa sold it`s Hong Kong based Star TV to Rupert Murdoch a long time ago, and now busy rescuing Bermuda-based, US owned, Global Crossing whose 160,000 km network of fibre-optic under-sea cables span the globe in a multi-billion dollar take-over which is currently under scrutiny at the SEC of USA.

Cheung Kong sold all of the prime property it owned in Central Hong Kong and now only developing low-end residential properties in the New Territories District of Hong Kong. Li Ka Shing knows everything about global business and as far as I know he has no love for China, though the mainland Chinese keep begging him. His family was physically thrown out of their home in Shanghai by Mao`s men and he escaped to Hong Kong in a fishing boat penniless and actually sold newspapers on a bicycle in Hong Kong for a while. How he made his money ? I know that story too. In short, Li Ka Shing is not interested in China at all.

Please don`t misunderstand my intervention as I know Li Ka Shing personally as well as Stanley Ho (the Macau Casino King)and a host of others. It`s not an aggressive post but just an attempt to get the facts on record.

Reply #: 159 ali1

``Your transformation is amazing.... and inspiring.

and now that you have made it known, I doubt that you`ll have another article published at chowk.com ever....``

Well there`s no transformation till one finds proof. Thanks for your kind words.

As for Chowk, it`s an extremely responsible Forum. If I send something ridiculous of-course they won`t publish it. I hope so far I haven`t done that. But do tell me your reasons for thinking that way.

Reply #: 161 sadna

``I still do not understand what you are trying to say unless you are saying its time for violent jihad. If so, thanks but I think you can continue this conversation by yourself.``

`Ya Rab woh na samjhey hain naa samjhein gey meri baat ..

`Dey aur dil un ko jo naa dey mujh ko zubaan aur`

I give up. So be it.

Actually I was only stating the underlying historical reasons for the conflict and you`re still stuck in cliches`. But never mind.

Reply #: 162 sattar2

Thanks. I read your post on the link. It`s a perspective which I never knew. Is it authentic ? I mean it challenges a whole lot of History and Scriptures. Would love to hear more on it.

Reply #: 163 tahmed321

``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP``

Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.

Reply #: 164 Farangi_Kush

Kuch aur bhi to kahein !

Reply #: 165 harimau

Well who knows which is which, and what is what .. (Pink Floyd: Dark side of the Moon)

Reply #: 166 Romair

I`m not talking about the last name, or Pinky. I spoke about about ZA Bhutto.

Regards.

Zeemax

Re: Zeemax

``...Manufacturing of apparel is labour intensive so that`s what we do. The highly value added industry is concentrated in a few countries and Globalization will ensure to keep it that way. ...``

Is software coding any less labor intensive, and less value added? How do you explain this industry`s growth in India? And after software, biotechnology?

Ref Romair #: 166

[The Bhutto last name has done more to destroy a country than perhaps any other last name in any other country.]

Amen to that.

Shah Nawaz Bhutto - Junagadh 1947

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto - Kashmir 1965, Bangladesh 1971

Benazir Bhutto - Billions of dollars in loot

RE; Zeemax #148
[Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.]

The land of Canaan is all land west of Jerusalem that includes parts of Syria, The West Bank and present day trrans-jordan At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated.. – the Assyrians ( much like the Babylonians) are NOT Syrians ( The Syrians are a Caucasian race much like the Turks) …. They were a semtic people …. The descendants of the Assyrians can be found in modern day Iraq and Iran.. They practice an eastern orthodox ( Assyrian) Christian faith…

[Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?

Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?

Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.

The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times. ]

Another History Lesson…( According to Jewish tradition)

Abraham had a covenant with God …. Abraham beget Isaac and Ishmael …. Isaac through his lawful wife Sarah.. and therefore inherited the covenant… Isaac passed the convenant to his son Jacob ( also known as Israel ) ( he had other sons but I guess Jacob was the favored one) …. Jacob passed the convenant to his 12 sons…- hence the 12 tribes of Israel …

Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Issachar, Zevulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph, Benjamin... - Joseph and Benjamin were the sons of Rachel – Jacobs’s favourite wife….. Joseph and his exploits in Egypt are part of Judaic/Christian and Islamic testaments..- The twelve tribes settled in Egypt. They were brought back by Moses and Aaron and Joshua…After the Death of Solomon - his kingdom was divided into two – the Northen kingdom of Judah ( not to be confused with the tribe of Judah) - which comprised of the 10 tribes and the southern kingdom of Israel which comprised of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah and which clamed the legacy of David and Solomon - It was from these two tribes do the present day Jews claim descent – both the Ashkenazi’s and the Sephardic ones .

Since the orthodox “Jews” are a chosen people – there is no conversion into Judaism…you can be only born into it and its follows a matrilineal tradition ( ie descent from the mother) – consequently Jews can be found in all races. Reform Judaism is an American phenomenon and are not recognized by the orthodox rabbis… One can convert into a reform Judaic church – liz taylor, sammy davis jr , whoopi Goldberg are a notable few…


At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians ( NOT SYRIANS) and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated..

RE; Zeemax #148
[Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.]

The land of Canaan is all land west of Jerusalem that includes parts of Syria, The West Bank and present day trrans-jordan At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated.. – the Assyrians ( much like the Babylonians) are NOT Syrians ( The Syrians are a Caucasian race much like the Turks) …. They were a semtic people …. The descendants of the Assyrians can be found in modern day Iraq and Iran.. They practice an eastern orthodox ( Assyrian) Christian faith…

[Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?

Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?

Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.

The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times. ]

Another History Lesson…( According to Jewish tradition)

Abraham had a covenant with God …. Abraham beget Isaac and Ishmael …. Isaac through his lawful wife Sarah.. and therefore inherited the covenant… Isaac passed the convenant to his son Jacob ( also known as Israel ) ( he had other sons but I guess Jacob was the favored one) …. Jacob passed the convenant to his 12 sons…- hence the 12 tribes of Israel …

Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Issachar, Zevulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph, Benjamin... - Joseph and Benjamin were the sons of Rachel – Jacobs’s favourite wife….. Joseph and his exploits in Egypt are part of Judaic/Christian and Islamic testaments..- The twelve tribes settled in Egypt. They were brought back by Moses and Aaron and Joshua…After the Death of Solomon - his kingdom was divided into two – the Northen kingdom of Judah ( not to be confused with the tribe of Judah) - which comprised of the 10 tribes and the southern kingdom of Israel which comprised of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah and which clamed the legacy of David and Solomon - It was from these two tribes do the present day Jews claim descent – both the Ashkenazi’s and the Sephardic ones .

Since the orthodox “Jews” are a chosen people – there is no conversion into Judaism…you can be only born into it and its follows a matrilineal tradition ( ie descent from the mother) – consequently Jews can be found in all races. Reform Judaism is an American phenomenon and are not recognized by the orthodox rabbis… One can convert into a reform Judaic church – liz taylor, sammy davis jr , whoopi Goldberg are a notable few…


At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians ( NOT SYRIANS) and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated..

``Muslims do recognise but it`s because of lack of credibile & respected leadership over the Muslim world spectrum that they have failed to state the point. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was that leader``

Pakistanis have a deathwish. Anyone who wants the exact same people who have destroyed Pakistan back into power have a deathwish. A country, whose even educated people, cannot differentiate their heroes from their villians, is doomed.

The Bhutto last name has done more to destroy a country than perhaps any other last name in any other country.

Ref Zeemax #: 160

[Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?]

You know, every idiot living in a third-world country is now trying to move to Israel claimng to be one of the lost tribes. Look at the Nagas/Mizos, etc. They were happily hunting heads till the British put an end to that practice. Now one of them is making the claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel and want the right of emigration to Israel. Of course they conveniently forget the fact that their features are predominantly Mongoloid, not Semitic.

[Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.]

The Afghans also claim to be descendants of Greek soldiers! Anything not to be an Afghan, I suppose.

Zeemax #160 You write ``For example, they can`t afford to manufacture their apparel now because it`ll cost $100 for a single T-shirt``

These examples are becoming increasingly irrelevant. Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP. Automation of the factory floor is making manufacturing a knowledge and capital intensive task, with some crumbs like garments left over for a little while longer for the poor countries. The real money in the economy today (as it will be increasingly so tomorrow) is in services, and that that money will be made by people having the skills and education needed.

Re Zeemax (#160):

You have raised an interesting question about the tribes of Israel. I once briefly responded to this topic while explaining the events that transpired during and immediately after the crucifixion of Issa-ibne-Marriam (pbuh) and some misconceptions regarding his “ascension”.

Here’s the link … good luck.

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=phoodbhoy_dec0701&n=170#reply405

Asad

Zeemax #160
I still donot understand what you are trying to say unless you are saying its time for violent jihad. If so, thanks but I think you can continue this conversation by yourself..

Reply #: 148 SameerJB

Sure my hand is raised. It`s only that every board invariably turns to India/Pakistan bashing regardless of what the author is trying to say.

Reply #: 151 tahmed321

I take your point. So I retract my earlier statement. Although I`m too lazy for that extra click !

Reply #: 153 friend, Reply #: 156 SameerJB

The China example is a good one. Where else could you go to a restaurant on the Great Wall and served with days old rotten stinking fish, and when you reject it with horror, your taxi driver laps it up as he couldn`t afford even that! The Shanxi province alone is larger than Pakistan both in terms of population and area, and the centre for metallurgical industry, but largely the masses are little better off than animals and human life is cheap.

I subscribe to the worker nation argument. Globalization is essentially drawing a start line and asking everyone to run when the pistol is fired. However, the majority of nations are handicapped, while only a few are advantaged as these had entered the Industrial Era at the turn of the 19/20th century. That gives them a 100 year head start as no single thirld world nation in comparison can be said to have entered the Industrial Era since then (with the exception of Korea, but it was stopped in it`s tracks as well in 1997). How does one expect them to compete?

I believe it`s all about value-addition in goods & services. The developed nations have high value addition, very highly skilled workforce and therefore very high minimum wage structures. For example, they can`t afford to manufacture their apparel now because it`ll cost $100 for a single T-shirt. But someone has to manufacture it. Manufacturing of apparel is labour intensive so that`s what we do. The highly value added industry is concentrated in a few countries and Globalization will ensure to keep it that way. Without Governmental protection and Tariff controls, the sibling value-added industry in developing countries will not be able to compete and will stifle. While the Sweat Shops will prosper selling T-shirts. At the same time the massive population markets in these countries will be an open door to all value-added goods & services which are not manufactured locally, whether they need them or not.

That, my friend, is Globalization. I reiterate I`m not a conspiracy thorist, but it all seems just so strange to me.

Reply #: 155 sadna

``sorry I could not understand what you meant to say and I don`t remember either my Bible or my BoneyM``

Oh .. but those are the essential ingredients of my arguments. Bible, as are all Holy books, is relevant in achieving an understanding. I would never have understood Qura`an if I hadn`t read the Bible.

That particular reference to Psalm 137 was about Israel. Interestingly this particular Psalm was recorded by BoneyM and initiated the Disco revolution in the 70`s. I quote it below:

``By the rivers of Babylon we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion. Psalm 137:1(NEB)``

This passage is based on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian army under Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE. The Psalm was written in remembrance of when the Jewish people were killed or dragged off as slaves to Babylon.

In verses 8 and 9 of Psalm 137 we have some of the most violent lines in the Hebrew Bible. ``Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and

dashes them against the rocks.`` The Hebrews ask for revenge.

Psalm 137:1-6, relates to the River of Euphrates and Babylon, the land of Israel`s captivity, ``By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we

wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song: and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the Lord`s song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not

remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.``

Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.

Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?

Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?

Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.

The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times.

If you haven`t listened, do get a CD of BoneyM. It`s great dance music. The message however is Spiritual.

Regards.

SameerJB #156 I agree with you that capital inflows to a country are to be encouraged. The US became a mighty industrial country due to massive inflows of European capital in the late 19th century (which financed railroads, among other things). Even today, US states compete with one another to attract foreign investments. friend #153 You and your sources seem unaware of is that much of the foreign capital is owned by expatriate chinese. Li-Ka Shing, for example, is among the handful of multibillionaires in the world and a well-known source of foreign capital - the Chinese expat community (with those in South East Asia alone estimated to have a worth of well over half a trillion dollars) has been called the third largest economy in the world (after US and Japan). The growing expat Indian community is already a significant source of foreign capital inflows to India.

So: capital inflows are to be encouraged. In backward societies, life is seen as a lose-lose (or at best, a win-lose) situation, and any win-win situations are viewed with suspicion. Of course one needs to have a framework of sound policies and good governance to get maximum value out of foreign capital, but I find it hard to imagine a situation where foreign investments and greater competition and modern management methods and modern technologies they bring in is bad for the economy.

Farangi Kush #154 Welcome back to chowk. You write: ``What about Christain South Americans & Mexicans,Atheist Russians,Whatever East Europeans,------in short almost 4/5 billion souls living in over 98% of countries,otherwise known as the Third world.`` I suppose them too, and no doubt many people in rich countries too. But let us have the confidence to rise above what we perceive to be a weakness that some people in other cultures may have too. After all: if you are flabby and overweight, then the answer is to accept that fact and do what you can as one person about it, not simply point out that you are not the only overweight person on earth.

You write ``Looking in the rear & side-view mirrors does result in safe driving.And once one has safely backed the vehicle one does want to go in forward gear...``. Agreed. Rear view mirrors are great for backing into the past. Is that what we want to do? While the rest of humanity builds upon discoveries and lessons learnt by previous generations, we blithely skip these lessons. The logical conclusion would be for us to move back to the caves and eat raw flesh. I suggest we concern ourselves with what is coming down the road over the next 20-30 years, since that is the responsibility of all adults living today.

Zeemax,

Your transformation is amazing.... and inspiring.

and now that you have made it known, I doubt that you`ll have another article published at chowk.com ever.... so might as well keep on interacting!