unflinching idealism ... since 1997 archivessitemapabouthelpfeedback
all are welcome to read, write and think
  • Home
  • InFocus
  • Themes
  • Columns
  • Articles
  • Fiction
  • iLogs
  • Gallery
  • Unplugged
  • Writers
  • Interactors
  • Tags
Sign in | Join Chowk
web chowk
  • Article
  • Interact
  • read writer comments
  • add to favorites
  • get rss feeds
  • print
  • email this link

Empty Vessels And All That Jazz

Zeemax February 2, 2002

Latest comments   flat   threaded   latest   oldest   all
listing 80-96   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

#124 Posted by SR on February 11, 2002 1:15:33 pm
Ferozk # 120

[``...Tara Masih was killed a few days after ZAB met his end. A few people, with whom I have talked have confirmed this fact; ...``]

ZAB was executed in 1979. I remember reading an interview that some journalist had conducted with Tara Masih somewhere in 1980. Then I also remember reading about Tara Mesih`s death sometime before March 1981 (my departure date from Pakistan). So, if I am not suffering from Alzheimer`s (which is debatable), then Tara Mesih was alive for at least several months past ZAB.

It is not of any great political importance if he lived or died (or was killed!!). So, really, this should not be a point of contention as it is very much a non-issue. All the poor man did was put the rope around the prisoner`s neck as he had done through out his career. He got paid ten ruppees per hanging (this was also in the interview), and that is all he gained. It makes no sense for anyone to want to kill him as a consequence of being ZAB`s executioner.

...SR

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#123 Posted by sadna on February 11, 2002 12:08:55 am
Zeemax #117

Pakistan is 97% Muslim so I donot see how you can get more `Islamic` than that. Anything you do, what you definately get is Muslims in government. And don`t most Muslim Pakistanis declare themselves to be believing Muslims? Doesn`t the Pakistani government give Pakistanis every chance to learn about their religion by mandating religious studies in Pakistani school/college curriculums? I seriously doubt that further spiritual growth can be legislated. (Even something wholly material and tangible like financial growth cannot be legislated, for eg )

The key to a responsive government is accountability which is the true punishment for bad performance and reward for good performance IN GOVERNANCE which is quantifiable.

Spirituality, on the other hand is not quantifiable being wholly internal to a person`s psyche though one may provide harsh punishments to scare him into the right appearances of spirituality.

The best examples are Saudis who strictly observe their religious restrictions while in S. Arabia, but then travel abroad to indulge tastes forbidden in their home country, thereby making the whole `spirituality by bureacracy` exercise meaningless.

I donot know anything about it, but surely ascribing Thailand`s financial crisis and flesh trade wholly to a Western conspiracy is very simplistic. And without understanding the connection with Thailand`s economic woes, here is an interesting fact I found after searching around, http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/th__indx.html

``Between 1932 and 1997, Thailand had 15 constitutions and 17 military coups. The latest constitution was adopted by parliament in 1997 after extensive public consultation.``

Apparently, the Thai economy showed a GDP growth of
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#122 Posted by zeemax on February 10, 2002 11:46:03 pm
Reply #: 116 SR

Well the anecdote you quote was no big secret. I had written about the capital shortfall in UK in my # 109. The window dressing in UK was well known inside BCCI though it was preferred not to talk about it, therefore Tony`s hushed tone. Bank of England had known about it for years but accepted it as the bank was a `going concern` despite the UK part being `technically insolvent`.

That window dressing was mainly over the $1.2 billion Gokal Shipping loans. Those were not being serviced and capital provisions were required which couldn`t be made because of various problems. These loans were however fully secured by the Gokal shipping fleet. To tide over the capital problem, BCCI UK began `parking` the loans in other BCCI locations whenever the audits were due. All banks do that and Bank of England knew it very well.

You see there`s a huge difference between being `technically insolvent` and being `bankrupt`. Citibank was technically insolvent for years during the late 80`s due to it`s South American loans ( $60 billion )but remained a going concern till Prince Talal bin Abdul Aziz rescued it by buying a big chunk of Citicorp (our present FM had negotiated that deal). If you stop a technically insolvent entity from being a `going concern`, only then it becomes bankrupt. In BCCI UK case that`s what happened. It had been a going concern despite the negative equity, till Bank of England pulled the plug and bankrupted it. But it did so under pressure because Bank of England was never against BCCI and had licensed it for all UK including Scotland after thorough scrutiny. The FSA (banking watchdog in UK) had regularly been conducting audits and were satisfied with BCCI`s explanations and overlooked the window dressing because of genuine difficulties.

Before Agha Hasan died, he had said something very interesting which stupified most people. He had said ``If today I ask Bank of England for another banking license, they will not refuse me.``

He never blamed Bank of England. He knew they were helpless.

Think about it !

Rgds

Zeemax



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#121 Posted by zeemax on February 10, 2002 11:46:03 pm
Reply #: 112 Urstruly

About Argentina, `Don`t cry for me Argentina` refers. Juan Peron and Evita Peron were the Marcos and Emilda of South America.

I can tell you why the country collapsed economically, but not the political background as my opinions there may be based on scant knowledge of Argentina`s distant history. I would request Sac and Fuzair, or SR , to contribute in that respect.

Argentina is in fact a classic case study. A very peculiar situation economically as their foreign and domesic debt is both denominated in Dollars. They have a parrallel dual currency system where one Peso is equal to one Dollar and transactions are conducted in both freely. However, every single Peso has to be backed by a Dollar in their reserves through a Currency Board system. Resultantly, people foresake the Peso and Dollar became the main currency inside Argentina. Like, house rents were paid in Dollars and the housevives shopped in Dollars. All bank accounts were held in Dollars. All of that amounted to $ 120 billion or more of domestic and foreign obligations combined as it`s all mixed in Argentina. When the crunch came on the Foreign debt servicing, the Govt. had to freeze even domestic bank accounts and had to ration withdrawals from ordinary bank accounts because they didn`t have enough Dollars. So Housewives couldn`t buy milk and turmoil continues. They cancelled Peso and made a new currency (don`t remember what they named it) but it collapsed in weeks. Now they`re back to the Peso but still pegged 1:1 to the Dollar. I don`t know what they`re doing. They must remove the peg and let their currency float and go through hyperinflation like the Brazil experience. It`s very painful but it`ll settle somewhere in the end.

I think Argentina has an ego problem with their currency; they want it to be equal to Dollar when Peso is nothing compared to the Dollar. They must take facts into account. But again it`s a huge political problem and people will suffer greatly due to huge devaluations.

The Argentenian psyche` was evident in the war with Britain over Falklands. They are a proud people and took a stand then, but it was only a small territorial thing and they lost even that. This is economic, and bigger. This crisis will deprive them of what little sovereignty they have left. They lost Falklands, now they will lose Argentina.



Reply #: 115 SameerJB

Indeed my Islamophilia is a new phenomenon in my life and I have explained that in my post to Sadna.

As for SR, he is my brother, even when he drags me through the streets :-). He will always be that as he has always been. No apologies were called for or required.

You really got my Eid Mubarak ? Well if the wishes were received that`s enough.

You wrote in detail about the Russian Oligarchs episode at Bank of NY, but my dear friend tahmed321 through his Reply #: 103 dismissed all my conjectures in that respect with a shrug as `isolated incidences`. What can I say ?

I would really like Sac,tahmed321, Fuzair, Sadna and you to come forward with views.

I also have another observation. There were many issues in my article. How come everyone got stuck on ZA Bhutto, BCCI and Islamic System ? What about the rest ? Like I had quoted the British Parliament `` During a cricket match between Pakistan and England at the Lords, who would you cheer for ?`` This question is essential to be addressed by all overseas Pakistanis/Indians..

Rgds

Zeemax



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#120 Posted by ferozk on February 10, 2002 11:32:41 pm
Re: Fuzair

I am sorry for not replying sooner and more so for breaking into the on-going discussion with an aside.

Tara Masih was killed a few days after ZAB met his end. A few people, with whom I have talked have confirmed this fact; though their narratives might have varied, they all did mention the point that he was killed afterwards - for what reason, you can conclude that yourself...

Ciao


reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#119 Posted by Zakkk on February 10, 2002 3:18:52 pm
Might be of interest



MegaEast interviewed Mr. Mamnoon Ahmed Alvi, the Regional General manager and senior executive vice president of Picic Commercial Bank .He is a seasoned banker who has been in this field for almost 40 years.

He joined as a probabation officer at Habib Bank in 1963 and worked there till 1978 .By that time he had become the area chief(included 35 branches) of Habib Bank.

He joined BCCI in 1978 when BCCI started its operations on the 25th of February in Karachi ,Pakistan.He worked for BCCI until its close down on 5th July , 1991.At the time of the bank`s collapse , he was the country manager in Oman .

Soon after, Pakistan was granted permission for commercial banks , and Mr Alvi joined Schon Bank , which was sold and named Gulf Commercial Bank which was taken over by PICIC in February , 2000 and the management was retained.

ME: Give us your insight on the collapse of BCCI ?

Mr Alvi: BCCI, which was an investment project of the Sheiks of Abu Dhabi, was flourishing on a large scale and achieved an unparalleled asset growth allover the world. It was one of the most succesful banks in the world`s history and soon reached America for expansion .Although Bank of America had had 40% share of BCCI , but it had slowly pulled out, identifying a potential threat to american banks.. American authorities realized that BCCI might take over the banking sector of America and they couldnot swallow a Muslim enterprise being so successful .Thus they made a small case of money laundering in Panama of 29 million dollars which is a very small amount.

Mr Alvi carried on in a slightly angry tone that money laundering is rampant all over the world even today.As long as black money is being generated , money laundering would never stop.A lot of institutes, even governments ,provide incentives to whiten the money.Cayman island ,the Swiss government are popular for numbered accounts and they are operating because of this money laundering , and they admit it as well.

Even if money laundering was proved in Panama ,France and London , why were hundreds of branches across the world closed down?why wasn`t action limited to those three branches?Its just like imprisoning a mother just because her son is a fugitive.It signifies America`s monotony over world`s affairs and BCCI was closed down only on the basis of discrimination.

BCCI , had a manpower of 14,000 and was such a successful bank that at the moment when it collapsed , it was reported that each and every airline was carrying BCCI assets (import or exports) on high seas , thus proving that it was immensely successful.



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#118 Posted by zeemax on February 10, 2002 2:25:34 pm
Reply #: 108 sadna

Your point is well taken. If I`m correct your emphasis is on Good Governance regardless of the nature of the Society, be it Islamic or not. And that the influentials will hijack any system be it even the theoretically perfect Islamic Society.

Yes. Very true. Only thing is how does one arrive at Good Governance in the Thirld World? This is an extremely complicated issue.

I could quote figures from World Bank reports on the progress of `developing` countries but those are cumbersome. Just look around you and see if there`re any countries which emerged from developing into the developed. Or if there`s Good Governance anywhere in the entire world other than the Northern Hemisphere. This is not only the Muslims` problem. This is the identical problem of the Indians, Chinese, Buddhists, Christians and so forth of the thirld world.

Take Thailand for example. It was an Asian Tiger and had made considerable economic as well as social progress. It was at the edge of being a `semi-developed` nation in 1997. Now it`s back to `developing` nation status (this is world bank ranking terminology). Thailand has all the ingredients to become a most successful and rich nation. A beutiful landscape, softspoken and friendly people immersed in their Faith of Buddhism, skilled manpower, fertile soil, geographical vicinity of being the gateway to the dark but plentiful regions of Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Burma, as well as the South China Sea and the ports of Hong Kong, Singapore and all of China. So what happened ? How did they slip and fall from semi-developed to developing ? It wasn`t because of lack of good governance. There`s corruption there, sure, because of a huge poor/rich gap, but they also have had political stability for generations and the Monarch is supremely respected. Any incumbent in office first goes and sits at King Bhumibol`s feet and leaves if the King shows displeasure. That`s not because he`s the King, it`s because he`s the spiritual leader of the Thai people. His daughter goes to the poorest slums of Bangkok and raises their spirits. The Royal family is not even that rich, there are many richer business tycoons in Bangkok. Royal family is not corrupt either and never exercise their influence for personal gain. Still, the chief hard currency source of Thailand is tourism for sex-trade. Do think why it is so. It wasn`t so before the Vietnam War. The Rest & Recreation (R&R) of US troops in Vietnam turned Thailand into a fleshpot.

My point with the Thailand example is simply that the Thais do have basics of Good Governance. They also have Spiritual strength. What they lack is an independant economic system. To answer my own question, the Thais becoming a developed nation was not a good idea as it would have upset the whole economic power balance in the world. Besides, where else can you actually BUY pre-teen Cambodian girls for $3,000 to be kept as willing sex-slaves in hostels for visiting Dutch and German Owners ? In this day and age ? Thus they were put back in their place in 1997 at the time of the Far-Eastern currency crisis. Now they`re back clawing up the deep well.

My emhasis on the Islamic Society, is that it seeks great spiritual strength in it`s leaders. Good Governance follows. Economic system is prescribed on spiritual guidelines of honesty and justice. And very strict, indeed horrifying punishment for those who violate the discipline like amputation of hands, stoning etc., but it`s all in the context of the Islamic Society. Pls. do understand. The Islamic Jurisprudence cannot be exercised in isolation just like the Financial System as they do in Saudi Arabia, or the Taliban did. That`s only an eyewash and cruelty which Islam abhors. These people are whom Islam calls `Munafiqeen` i.e the people who claim to be believers but actually are not. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself forgave someone who stole bread, and forbade people to stone a prostitute because her husband had died in the war and she had no other source of income. First responsibility of the State is to provide for it`s people, and impose punishments later.

To cut the long story short, Sadna, Islam respects all humanity and Faiths. People are the most important in Islam ranked next to God, be they be fallible in their own ways or whatever. Only thing Islam demands is total commitment to what He has said.

Someone had asked in this exchange as to the reason for my metamorphosis. The answer is it was through personal experience. I had been an agnostic in the early days, skeptic too but one lives and learns. I have come to believe now that all Faiths are right but Islam is the last Faith that understands more of Human Destiny.

However, too many people think God is dead but Elvis is alive. But that`s OK.

Fond Rgds.

Zeemax



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#117 Posted by hamzadafaqui on February 10, 2002 2:25:34 pm
ZEEMAX:

Here read /Khud /Tumhein as Muslims,Pakistani people,You & me!

``KHUD hee socho,keh hur ik dur sey mila kyaa akhir

Kaar aamad hui faryaad,keh naakaam hui?

Upnee galyon mein sey kis kis ney sataayaa TUM ko,

Dusht e ghurbat mein kahaan subhO,kahaan shaam hui

Kis ney soyay hui asbaab e fughaan ko chherra

Kis ney sumjhhaeen TUMHEIN ishrat e ghum kee baatein.

----Kaun layaa TUMHEIN andoh O vafaa kee jaanib.

Naam Manzoor hai tO Faiz kaa asbaab bundhhaa

Phool lagaa,Chai bunaa,mustee naa kr,talaa lga``

No sir!my name is not Manzoor--;)--:)



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#116 Posted by SR on February 10, 2002 5:32:08 am
Zeemax,

At the risk of being impolite, allow me to add an anecdote to augument insinuations made by Sameer, sac, Fauzir and others in the Abedi / BCCI context. Not that their very valid arguments need any augumenting. (Please don`t take it personally and try considering the possibility that you may not have an entirely objective picture since you were inside the picture-frame.)

One afternoon in 1989 -- that is two years prior to Bank of England`s fatal blow -- Ali Akbar (may his soul rest in peace) and I visited Tony at his 100 Ladenhall street office. As you know, he was head of internal audits at the time. Ali asked him about the goings-on inside BCCI, as outsiders that always used to be juicy gossip to our ears. After a moment`s hesitation he quickly glanced around, leaned forward and said in a hushed whisper, `agar Bank of England ko pata chal jaya keh yehaN kaya kuch ho raha hae to kal hamaray darvazay per tala lug jayah.` (If the Bank of England was to discover what goes on in here, there would be a pad-lock at our front gate tomorrow morning.)

Now you know the man, poor fellow may quite lack imagination, but his honesty cannot be questioned. He is no lair. Being the inside auditor he must have seen some really bad stuff. Unfortunately, he was too timid to speak up or divulge any facts, but it really makes me wonder. Isn`t it a bit strange that so many sources got it wrong and their allegations of BCCI are all false, yet only the psychopathic delusional magalomaniac `hazrat` Agha saheb and his close cronies and sychophants (present audiance excluded, of course) were right in claiming their collective innocence?

Zeemax #111

[``...Ø The tongue must be heavy, indeed, because so few people can hold it...``]

Yes, it is. But human excrement is heavier still, even Samson, Hercules and Rustam drop it.

Cheers mate,

...SR


reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#115 Posted by SameerJB on February 10, 2002 2:55:09 am
Zeemax: I am glad to see more than 15 highly valuable and illuminating posts in a row. They have certainly helped us non-banking individuals to increase their understanding. My comparable forte would be natural sciences and chemistry in particular. I am glad that sac responded to my post and the discussion turned from Tara Masih to BCCI, money laundering and banking in general.

Zeemax, in friendship, no apology is needed or accepted. It transcends all the variables of formalities. Friendships are made from drawing line with 1000s of points; one or few points deviating from predictable behavior do not change the correlation. SR in fact was too down to earth to apologize, although I also felt Islamophilia in your posts, which was uncharacteristic of your image in my mind. Do I have to apologize to you for thinking that way or not acknowledging Eid Mubarak from you? No because my admiration of you has not changed an iota and you do not know that I created yahoo e-mail for chowk and that I check it almost once a month. Anyway, I will hope that you as well as SR will give your opinion to my next article at chowk. Now let’s talk!!

Zeemax, I do go out hard in discussion when know something and have convictions. I have been aggressive or levelheaded, whatever you may call it. But when I try to draw logical conclusions, they may still look good due to the logic and rationalization although my own confidence level and determination in stating that position may involve some degree of uncertainty. Thanks again and please keep enlightening us with your knowledge and opinions, be it BCCI, Tara Masih, Islamic banking, politics, religion or anything.

Now here is one of my logical conclusions about higher degree of confidence. In one of the posts, you mentioned about large amounts of money in Bank of New York belonging to four Russian oligarchs and the story was totally disappeared because no media outlet, no politician and no banking oversight committee dared to follow it. It happened in 1999. The election campaign was in full swing and even Republicans dared not to bring it up although Al Gore’s name was tied to this story. I am sure you know the reason but do others know the reason also? Actually most people can not name the seven in the group of seven Russian oligarchs who basically control Russian economy now. In one of the bestseller of recent years, “Lexus and the Olive Tree” the author Thomas Friedman went over practically every crook and corrupt politician and businessman around the world and yet did not even mention a single name of the seven Russian oligarchs. The money in those secret accounts of the Bank of New York belonged to 4 out of seven. Okay, one of them is Chenomyrdin, former Russian Prime Minister and owns large portion of Gazprom, another is a media tycoon, third one is called Aluminum King,…………..There is no point for me to describe what characteristics are common to all of them except Chenomyrdin but think for a moment. If those four account holders were Chinese tycoons from Macao or Hong Kong or better four Arab Sheikhs with common middle name of “bin”. This story would have made the headlines all over the USA and banking industry with unpredictable ramifications for whoever was favoring their laundering. Here you have an example of outright ignoring, not even a slap on the wrist, for favorites. Perhaps BCCT should have tried to launder money from Russian oligarchs instead of third world despots.

So Zeemax, just on the basis of this episode, I believe that you do have a case for BCCI’s “innocence” based on favoritism for select few tolerated by everybody. Sac ‘s earlier post conceded this point better than my explanation. But both sac ad Fuzair do make a case for one too many such instances for BCCI. Who is there to set the limit on the number of allowable shady practices and why bar is lowered or almost placed at the basement level when it comes to dealing with select few?





reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#114 Posted by fuzair on February 9, 2002 7:40:16 pm
Re: Zeemax #106

Actually, I don`t think I`ve changed my stance at all. My point was never that BCCI was the only crooked bank in Pakistan or anywhere else in the world. I was merely stating what I knew for a fact about how BCCI did business in Pakistan. What I know about BCCI`s worldwide operations is very much from second and third hand sources.

BTW, I did do a stretch in Treasury as a part of our training to become good little corporate bankers and I know about selling and buying ceiling.

If you look at my post #69, I said exactly that:

Quote:
``4 Banks had to report credit ceiling utilization to the State Bank of Pakistan every Thursday (back when Friday was the weekly holiday), so if BCCI had miscalculated its credit ceiling utilization and was over the additional ceiling amount IT HAD PURCHASED FROM OTHER BANKS [emphasis added now], it would bribe the finance people of large firms to transfer funds from other banks to BCCI. Thus BCCI`s outstanding credit would be reduced and they would not incur State Bank penalties.``
End quote.

Purchasing/lending ceiling was an entirely legal tactic. In fact, I knew of several of the smaller Middle Eastern banks who made a large part of their revenue from selling ceiling to the larger ones since they had so few clients of their own.

However, what I was objecting to was BCCI`s propensity to BRIBE the finance managers of large firms to shuffle funds around on Thursday morning if BCCI had miscalculated its ceiling requirement.



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#113 Posted by Urstruly on February 9, 2002 7:38:52 pm
Further to 112

As a matter of fact I would like to exetend my appeal to Fuzair and Sac as well.

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#112 Posted by Urstruly on February 9, 2002 7:35:05 pm
Zeemax

I have been reading your interacts with interest. Although I do not agree with every perception of yours (facts aside) yet I think your arguments carry weight and have substance.

I would like to request you to write a note on financial crises in Argentina. Personally I think the word ``Argentina` is written all over Paksitan. Whether the military despots stay in power or we return back to Ganji Jamhooriat or chamma chamma baajay ri teri bainderia jamhooriat, the 9/11 has only delayed the inevitable. And now when the US has changed its course and it is enforcing its globalization agenda through force and coercion, I think the domino effect (of Argentina) is about to begin anytime soon.

It is a shame that not only in Paksitan but all around the third world neither the people nor the intelligentia (forget govts) have taken this threat seriously. There is hardly an article in Paksitani newspapers about what is coming our way. WE are in dire need of raising the awareness of the people about this evil that is lurking around us.

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#111 Posted by zeemax on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
Reply #: 107 SR

``Your new-found `Islamophilia` comes as somewhat of a surprize to me, and frankly, I am none too happy to lose yet another long time liberal ally to the conservative camp.``

No you have`t lost an ally, you have gained another ally whom you never knew. I`m not one person, I`m many.

Ø The best way to get even is to forget...

Ø Some folks wear their halos much too tight...

Ø Unless you can create the WHOLE universe in 5 days, Then perhaps giving ``advice`` to God, isn`t such a good idea!

Ø Sorrow looks back, worry looks around, and faith looks up...

Ø A skeptic is a person who when he sees the handwriting on the wall , claims it`s a forgery.

Ø It isn`t difficult to make a mountain out of a molehill, just add a little dirt.

Ø The mighty oak tree was once a little nut that held its ground.

Ø Too many people offer God prayers with claw marks all over their face.

Ø The tongue must be heavy, indeed, because so few people can hold it.

Ø To forgive is to set the prisoner free and then discover the prisoner was you.

Ø You`ll notice that a turtle only makes progress when it sticks out its neck...

Ø If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, you can bet the water bill is higher.

Ø You are richer today if you have laughed, given, or forgiven...

Rgds

Zeemax

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#110 Posted by zeemax on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
Reply #: 106 Fuzair

Well we seem to be arriving at some common ground as you seem to have somewhat modified your stand since your previous posts. Welcome.

You are correct on many grounds. However the Credit Ceiling was allowed to be traded on the interbank money market just as the other tradable securities. Perhaps you didn`t have exposure of Treasury Operations so you aren`t aware of that. Banks with excess Credit Ceiling were allowed by SBP to `lend` the excess for predetermined durations to the banks which were short. All that changed when credit ceilings were removed entirely. These were part of the monetary policy of that time.

``Surely you are not implying that only primitive societies can be truly Islamic?``

Well, I agree to the extent of your underlying assumption that the Islamic Financial System (not the Society) seems to be designed for rather small (not primitive) societies; that was the size of all societies at that time. But if we reject it forthwith without even studying or applying our mind to it, how can we adapt it to fit larger ones ?

``Such as, for example, honest government, rebuilding infrastructure, figuring out how to get GDP growth above the population growth rate and .. ``

Absolutely correct. That`s what we have been trying to do for the last 50 years but it doesn`t work. We will no doubt try for another 50 years but it still won`t work; not till the issues raised in this article are addressed. Then it`ll work.

Rgds

Zeemax



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#109 Posted by zeemax on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
Reply #: 101 SameerJB

Your self-deprecating style has always been endearing. You head off in precisely the correct direction and then turn around and say you may be completely wrong !

However let me make my observations on your mail. You said:

-``it was really the insolvency that sealed its fate. Now I do not have the slightest idea if it was really as insolvent and unable to meet the demands of its depositors.``

*Consider this: No depositors lost a penny in Pakistan, India,Bangladesh, Middle East and much of Africa i.e wherever Governments took over control of the local operations and resisted the Luxembourg liquidators. No Govt had to inject it`s own money either. The same operations continue successfully today under different names in these countries and mostly managed by the same people. Amongst where it was liquidated, Hong Kong has repaid 100% back to the depositors and now considering a 5 % p.a. interest payment. This was despite liquidators fees & expenses of HK$ 1 million (US$128,000) per DAY since 1991,which was being paid from the liquidation proceeds. Many other countries have repaid between 40-80 %. The only weak operation was the UK one which had a shortfall due to the shipping industry downturn (Gokal`s). That too has repaid 40 % despite the liquidator`s plunder. Does that sound like the bank was insolvent ?

You see, what happened was that the Bank of England took the weakest link in the BCCI chain which was incidentally under their control and killed it. That was BCCI Int`l SA in UK. Then they

approached Luxembourg where the ultimate parent company was registered and had a judge pass liquidation orders for the parent. Obviously the whole empire had to come under stress if the parent went into liquidation. Then they appointed liquidators and went out to grab all the hugely successful operations in the rest of the world which had been supporting the weak operation in UK. That is what actually happened.

Interestingly, as Bina had stated elsewhere in this exchange that Mr. Abedi had said ``Give me the money - hee hee etc ..``, that was exactly what was said but it was said by the Bank of England. Does that make any sense my dear friend ?

Also consider this. When the final meeting to liquidate the bank was held in Luxembourg, Sheikh Zayed`s personal representative was there. His name was Ghanim-Al-Mazrui. He was carrying Sheikh Zayed`s personal authority under Royal seal to commit any amount which may be demanded to meet any alleged capital shortfalls. However, he was simply told that ``It has been decided to liquidate the bank``. Mr. Mazrui put the Royal letter back in his briefcase and flew home.This episode is described in detail in the Financial Times of London`s book on BCCI.

- ``The BCCI was rather a new kid on the block and nowhere close to top 100 or 200 banks in the world banking industry.``

* In fact BCCI was amongst the top 5 in the world in terms of country coverage. It operated in 72 countries. In terms of total assets, it was just below the top 100, I think it was 105, and would have been within the top 100 in another year or so. That scared the hell out of a lot of people. Being within the top 100 makes a lot of difference in the banking world as that``s the benchmark for credit worthiness.

I hope the foregoing has helped your `poor` understanding although I suspect it isn`t that `poor` at all. However, just one thing. Never believe what you hear and only half of what you see. And burn the newspapers as soon as they arrive at your door. The media plays unreal mind games.

Fond Rgds

Zeemax



reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
listing 80-96   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Interact Index

    #204 shariqa
    #203 zeemax
    #202 rsridhar
    #201 rsridhar
    #200 zeemax
    #199 sadna
    #198 zeemax
    #197 zeemax
    #196 sadna
    #195 zeemax
    #194 sadna
    #193 ai
    #192 sattar2
    #191 farangi_kush
    #190 sadna
    #189 farangi_kush
    #188 SameerJB
    #187 sadna
    #186 saminashah
    #185 sadna
    #184 tahmed321
    #183 tahmed321
    #182 tahmed321
    #181 Syed Ahmed
    #180 Syed Ahmed
    #179 Syed Ahmed
    #178 Syed Ahmed
    #177 sadna
    #176 tahmed321
    #175 SameerJB
    #174 harimau
    #173 AlephNull
    #172 sadna
    #171 tahmed321
    #170 zeemax
    #169 shammi
    #168 harimau
    #167 Syed Ahmed
    #166 Syed Ahmed
    #165 Romair
    #164 harimau
    #163 tahmed321
    #162 sattar2
    #161 sadna
    #160 zeemax
    #159 tahmed321
    #158 tahmed321
    #157 ali1
    #156 SameerJB
    #155 sadna
    #154 sac
    #153 tahmed321
    #152 tahmed321
    #151 farangi_kush
    #150 friend
    #149 SR
    #148 zeemax
    #147 zeemax
    #146 zeemax
    #145 tahmed321
    #144 zeemax
    #143 SameerJB
    #142 hamzadafaqui
    #141 sadna
    #140 Urstruly
    #139 tahmed321
    #138 zeemax
    #137 zeemax
    #136 farangi_kush
    #135 tahmed321
    #134 fuzair
    #133 Urstruly
    #132 sadna
    #131 Urstruly
    #130 sac
    #129 tahmed321
    #128 zeemax
    #127 tahmed321
    #126 zeemax
    #125 hamzadafaqui
    #124 SR
    #123 sadna
    #122 zeemax
    #121 zeemax
    #120 ferozk
    #119 Zakkk
    #118 zeemax
    #117 hamzadafaqui
    #116 SR
    #115 SameerJB
    #114 fuzair
    #113 Urstruly
    #112 Urstruly
    #111 zeemax
    #110 zeemax
    #109 zeemax
    #108 sadna
    #107 SR
    #106 fuzair
    #105 zeemax
    #104 sac
    #103 tahmed321
    #102 zeemax
    #101 SameerJB
    #100 sadna
    #99 tahmed321
    #98 zeemax
    #97 zeemax
    #96 sac
    #95 ylh
    #94 arjun_m
    #93 fuzair
    #92 ylh
    #91 anNy
    #90 fuzair
    #89 sadna
    #88 SaimaShah
    #87 Urstruly
    #86 SR
    #85 sadna
    #84 tahmed321
    #83 tahmed321
    #82 nasah
    #81 nasah
    #80 Ras Siddiqui
    #79 ferozk
    #78 zeemax
    #77 semipreciousme
    #76 Star Buck
    #75 ZafarA
    #74 SameerJB
    #73 Rdesikan
    #72 Bina
    #71 Bina
    #70 Bina
    #69 fuzair
    #68 Zakkk
    #67 zeemax
    #66 sac
    #65 zeemax
    #64 Ras Siddiqui
    #63 zeemax
    #62 Faruk
    #61 Urstruly
    #60 Syed Ahmed
    #59 fuzair
    #58 sadna
    #57 zeemax
    #56 bong_dongs
    #55 zeemax
    #54 zeemax
    #53 saminashah
    #52 veeresh
    #51 ZafarA
    #50 soysauce
    #49 hamzadafaqui
    #48 sadna
    #47 ZafarA
    #46 hamzadafaqui
    #45 sadna
    #44 sac
    #43 ylh
    #42 sadna
    #41 ylh
    #40 nasah
    #39 tahmed321
    #38 zeemax
    #37 zeemax
    #36 zeemax
    #35 ylh
    #34 ylh
    #33 sadna
    #32 Urstruly
    #31 Urstruly
    #30 sadna
    #29 zeemax
    #28 zeemax
    #27 urstru1y
    #26 ! Amongst U
    #25 Zakkk
    #24 SameerJB
    #23 ferozk
    #22 Bina
    #21 ! Amongst U
    #20 Lajwanti
    #19 semipreciousme
    #18 hobbyty
    #17 saminashah
    #16 ylh
    #15 ylh
    #14 ferozk
    #13 Urstruly
    #12 aicha
    #11 nasah
    #10 veeresh
    #9 Zakkk
    #8 zeemax
    #7 zeemax
    #6 Ras Siddiqui
    #5 zeemax
    #4 rsaxena
    #3 Zakkk
    #2 ylh
    #1 SaimaShah

Latest Interacts

  • JawidMirza: #32.. These comments made me... Impressions: What Has Changed
  • bhairav: I would rather spend... With Never a Lamentation
  • Ishitani: #27 rhusain "Indeed not only... Impressions: What Has Changed
  • bulleya: i have always wondered... With Never a Lamentation
  • Ishitani: #27 rhusain If it is... Impressions: What Has Changed
  • bulleya: faiz was quite a... With Never a Lamentation
  • bhairav: Mullah Nasruddin and The... 21st Century Terrorism and
  • CoolAL: It was not because... 21st Century Terrorism and

THEMES

  • Pakistan's Struggle for Democracy
  • The Indian Story
  • Indo-Pak Relations
  • Personal Narratives
  • Religion Today
  • War on Terror
  • Role of Media
  • Call for Social Change
  • Hold Them Accountable
  • Environment and Us
  • Way of Life
more »

Top 5 Articles This Week

  • Popular
  • Poking the Good Turk in the Eye
  • With Never a Lamentation
  • Stretching It, Just a Little Further
  • 21st Century Terrorism and Wars Against Terror
  • Ishq-e-Lafana
  • Featured
  • There are a Lot of Monkeys
  • White Charade
  • Words of a Woman
  • FOX News and the Smelly Shoes
  • Dilemmas of Creative Children
  • 10 Years Ago
  • Farce
  • Threads (Part I)
  • Touch
  • Pakistan vs India at Hobart, 21st of January, 2000
  • Unquestionable Changes?

Write on Chowk Interact Guidelines Privacy policy Terms Contact

Copyright © 1997 - 2010 chowk.com. All Rights Reserved
Reproduction of material on any www.chowk.com pages without prior written permissions is strictly prohibited