Empty Vessels And All That Jazz

I`d like to go back to a much earlier point pertaining to our need for developed muslim leadership because this often fuzzes my logic. Are we waiting for the likes of another messiah to appear from amongst our masses to rescue us from our ownselves? It would be likened to looking for diamonds amongst a coal field... a miracle! Coal fields essentially do not have the right environment to produce anything as strong as a diamond. Just as, presently, the muslim world does not have the correct milieu to bring forth a successful leader term after term. It`s not a single good and trustworthy leader we are hoping for but a succession.... continuity. This environment is dependent on the individual (the single drop within the sea) and on their means of educating, parent to child, teacher to student or more correctly media to the masses. And it doesn`t change within a single generation but over several, we hope for change impossibly fast. Every choice that the single person makes sends ripples throughout the world. A better, individual choice leads to a better environment which leads to better leaders. It would be a lot easier, though, if it happened the other way around.

Reply #: 203 rsridhar

It`s heartening that you are doing something tangible for your country. It`s also heartening that you`re a realist and not a Pakistani Basher just for the sake of being so. You have seen there`re people like me too who never bash India, not even over Kashmir.

Regards and keep up the good work.

re:Reply #: 196

Zeemax,

It is true there is a lot of poverty in India. We in US are trying to make a difference. I am sponsoring a child`s education for life. Recently i gave money for Shankara Netralaya, which performs free cataract and retinal surgeries. My parents through us (me and my sibs) are helping an organisation called ``Helping hands`` in Madras which actually adopt newborns left uncared on the streets (no doubt by unwed mothers). This organisation is doing a great service. I am sure almost all Indians in Chowk are doing something in their own small/big way.

Poverty in India is for all to see. It is not carefully hidden from eyes (as the case in some communist countries like China). But institutions in India are strong. Democracy is vibrant. See the latest assembly results. BJP is being chastised by these very poor people.

India however is not as poor as it was say 50 years ago. It is going to take a long time. Are we on the right track? You bet.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 192

FARANGI_KUSH,

Sorry for butting in. I cannot help it if you are making all nasty accusations about India. This is coming from a Pakistani (i know you guys do not like to be called Pakis)! The whole world is at your balls and you have the balls to tell us we are ugly and we stink. Yes, we may be all that but we are no terrorists. We do not go about slitting foreign journalist`s throat in full view of the camera for ransom. We do not run Madrassas filled with hate. And we do not tolerate getting dictations on how to act by the world`s sole superpower. Mushy boy is on record saying he is not used to dictation from another country but at personal level he does not mind Uncle Sam`s dick stationed permanently in his country. What a sham?

A lot of things are wrong with India. Poverty is there and so is hope. Did you read that BJP is getting its A$$ whipped in the assembly elections. Its jingoistic activities will be curtailed. See how democracy is at work. Those filthy, poor ba$tards are giving a lesson in democracy to your despicable country that has to prop up a freaking dictator every now and then like an eye-sore. That dictator promises everytime to do a miracle and everyone in your country cheers from sidelines until the doomsday arrives. This scenario has been enacted so many times in the past that one wonders what is wrong with Pakistanis? Why can`t they get it?

Let us talk statistics. What is the level of education in your country? What are the Infant and Maternal mortality rates? How many children under 14 get educated? Are these parameters better than India? If not, why don`t you and other chowkies just shut up and keep hoping some dictator someday will do a miracle for you guys. Meanwhile, democracy can take a hike.

Sridhar

Reply #: 200 sadna

Sadna I can never forget those images of India. Those haunt me all the time. Let me tell you today the only people who picked me up when I was down; one was a well-known Hindu Tycoon in Calcutta whom I had saved from great disaster, the other an Israeli Jew who had been completely impoverished in business but I picked him up as he was struggling and I was in a position to help. It didn`t matter to me what color or religion they were. They were and are just simply friends. I had helped them in their time of need and they never forgot that. All of my Muslim brothers forgot whom I had helped just the same ..

I have great love for India. That`s why I couldn`t bear to see that mother begging with a son with empty pits in place of eyes. We have no fight at all. I had advocated a common market in my Millenium Manifesto which could bring out both our countries from darkness. However, in the cacaphony of madness these small voices are lost.

My regrets if anything offended you in my posts.

Rgds

Zeemax

Zeemax #198
Thats what uppity Indians do, Zeemax. I am sure this is a useful fact for when Pakistani loan defaulters appear before the NAB or IMF whatever.

Sadna the 1 billion Indians are our friends .. think about it .. we`re not enemies ..

Sadna, please tell me why that woman beggar gouged out her six month old son`s eyes .. I haven`t found an answer yet. Perhaps you can tell me.

I retract the uppity statement. Although it was true. Indians are uppity for no reason.

Tell me why she gouded out her son`s eyes.

Rgds

Zeemax #196
Interesting replies. Hope it is at last dawning on you and your friend F_K that ALL 1 billion odd Indians are `uppity` even the beggars.

Just got back from 4 days of attending `Basant` in Lahore.

Reply #: 167 Syed Ahmed

Thanks for a very enlightening lesson in distant history. Do expand a bit on the relationship, real or perceived, between the present day Muslims and the Assyrians.

Reply #: 171 shammi

``Is software coding any less labor intensive, and less value added?``

I think your question has been answered in Reply #: 175 of harimau. Software coding is just sweatshop stuff. Same as stitching garments that someone at the `value-added` end has designed.

Reply #: 175 harimau

``A single Boeing 747 at $150 million+ will pay for a lot of $1 T-shirts from Bangladesh or $5 shoes from Brazil``

That`s exactly my point. Thanks for illustrating it so well.

Reply #: 176 tahmed321

Yes it`s true the Overseas Chinese are a major source of foreign capital in China, but there`re Chinese and there`re Chinese. You find all sorts within the Chinese. The people who are investing are the Mandarin speaking i.e. Taiwanese, Singaporeans, Indonesian/Malaysian/Thai ethnic groups who all speak Mandarin. The others i.e. the Cantonese and the Shanghainese bore the brunt of the cultural revolution and they`re in no hurry to get back in there. It`s a very fine distinction to make when studying China as the Chinese, even though they may look the same, are actually very different.

Reply #: 177 SameerJB; Reply #: 178 sadna

Thanks Sameer. I respect Sadna`s wishes not to discuss Biblical conflicts, although I wonder why? If doing that raises one`s level of understanding, as yours and Syed Ahmed`s post raised mine substantially, it`s knowledge after all we`re seeking right? Or is it just chatting back & forth .. I`ld like to think everyone here is seeking knowledge and perhaps attaining some.

Reply #: 183 tahmed321

``we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.

I wish you God Speed. I sincerely mean it. However, it can`t be done given the prevalent `global economic system`.

Reply #: 186 sadna, Reply #: 187 saminashah, Reply #: 189 SameerJB, Reply #: 190,

FARANGI_KUSH, Reply #: 191

sadna, Reply #: 192 FARANGI_KUSH, Reply #: 195

sadna.

Ken Lay and the Enron affair is peanuts. Just the usual treachery. Wonder how many more Enrons are out there.

Now I hope someone goes back to my posts about BCCI. Enron methodically cheated it`s investors and pretty much everyone else using exactly the BCCI corporate structure. I think this exonerates BCCI completely. BCCI had invented this method of a corporate structure to protect itself from attack from hostile regulators. Enron used the same structure to cheat and plunder. While BCCI`s liquidation was sufficient to meet most creditor`s claims, Enron`s creditors will be lucky to get a cent for the Dollar.

As for Sadna`s uppity attitude, I have been to Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta. I have seen swarms of maimed beggars outside Delhi Fort including a woman who had gouged out her son`s eyes in order to beg. I actually stopped and asked her why? And she said she could have more sons .. no problem. It was impossible to open the car window in Calcutta because of the stench. There were people all around pissing and defacating in the streets. Power was only on for a few hours in a day. I was staying with very rich people but I opted out because it was just so painful to see humanity living in worse conditions than mongrels. Bombay is pretty much the same though to a lesser degree than Calcutta. I really don`t see what Sadna is so uppity about?

Regards

Zeemax

F_K #192
FARANGI_KUSH hates Indians and Hindus and says so in every post. Ho hum.

We are facing a serious military crisis and

the only answer is to call back from retirement

the undefeated legendry hero: General Aqleem Aktar

Rani, HJ.

Her secret exploits in 1971 read lke the annals of military history and remind us of Napoleon, Manstein and Rommel. Had she been in charge we would not have suffered the indignity of Kargil.

I propose that she be immediately brought out of retirement; given a facelift and applied good red rouge purchased from a CSD store put in uniform and made a Field Marshal supreme command of all land, air and naval forces of Pakistan.

Re Zeemax (170):

The account of Issa-ibne-Marriam that I presented has been arrived at by piecing together evidence from the New Testament and historical records. This account is consistent with Quran and hadith, only if these are correctly read and understood. Facts about Issa-ibne-Marriam have always been poorly understood, mainly due to his controversial role in the three major religions of the world, namely Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

The corrupt Jewish clergy, in order to maintain their authority over the masses, rejected Issa as the long-awaited Messiah mentioned in the Torah. In their efforts to show that Issa is not a prophet of God and therefore does not have any divine support, they attempted to crucify him.

Christians on the other hand believe that Issa was the Son of God, that he died on the cross to wash away the sins of the mankind, was later resurrected, and finally ascended to “heavens”. The truth regarding Issa surviving crucifixion, escaping, successfully preaching the message of God to the Israelites, and finally dying like any other mortal human would shake the foundations of present day versions of Judaism and Christianity. This fear is probably the driving force behind suppression of truth about Issa-ibne-Marriam.

As far as I can tell, there is no evidence to support the notion of Issa`s divine Sonship in Bible. Actually, Bible clearly indicates that Issa was alive when taken down from the cross. Bible also gives account of Issa moving about, meeting with his disciples, eating fish and honey to show that he is indeed a human and not a ghost … all this after he was put on the cross. But this evidence is largely ignored and/or misinterpreted by most Jewish and Christian scholars.

The Christian idea of Issa “ascending to heavens” eventually found its way in the mainstream Muslim thought process. Quran and hadith were later re-interpreted to accommodate these notions. Such interpretation inadvertently resulted in contradictions within Quran, within hadith, and between religion and rationality … but these contradictions are largely ignored and/or explained in a twisted manner by the Muslim ullema of our times.

As I mentioned in the link, several scholars (from eastern and western parts of the world) have arrived at similar conclusions. Some of them actually traveled to Kashmir, searched through local historical records, and found undeniable evidence of Issa surviving the cross and traveling to Kashmir. This is also a deeply cherished belief of the Ahmadi-Muslims all over the world. Hundreds of books have been published on this issue by Ahmadis as well. Such discoveries have posed tough questions for the mainstream religious scholars … which remain largely unanswered.

On the same board, in other posts I explained some more on this issue. You may find posts #415, 423, 425 helpful. Here’s the link …

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=phoodbhoy_dec0701&n=160#reply423

You may find the following website helpful as well .. it contains info and pics of tomb of Jesus and more …

www. tombofjesus.com

Asad

sadna----191

Yours is the only country named after a religion(if one can be charitable & call Hindoo-ism that).

Then You guys love to call yourself India.What kind of CRAP is that---is it in memory of the farangies you collaborated with?--Then sometimes this ``Now I`m Hindoo,now I`m not`` becomes Bharat.Then Hindoooooooostaaan.

Name one country which is so accursed by identity crisis.I`ve met several commies,socialists,liberals and such specimen who, the moment they can write ABC ,who spit & tell everyone around ``O,I`m not a bloody hindu``.

It is for the commie liberal types that Hindutva is bad.But no matter how bad they are they are not subservient to alien philosophies(if one can call `an idiots` guide to colonialism` philosophy).

Never ever try to paint a rosy picture of a Hindoo country which is a festering sore,bleeding ulcer & drooling leper on the face of the earth.Ask those who have been there.It is dirty,ugly,starving,faeces & urine drenched,& a paradise for dung-beetles.

A Hindoo who visited after long time told me of the urinating & defecating,row upon row,on railway platforms looking across their mirror-like images.All hindoos.

In order to cross the road in Delhi,he had to take a rickshaw!--Full of dirt,flies,& fumes one cannot even breath.And then the claim to ``progress`` by digit-coolies,& satellite,& going nuclear.Now C`mon just look at the faces of Bajpai & his hindoo cabinet-----was there something amiss without such specimen.

The Bhaand & Kanjar Bollywood(now Mollywood?---you HIS Masters VOICES) tries to show the advantage of being hooker & pimp rather than becoming a practising hindoo or a Secularist with dagger in the armpit & Lenin on the lips.

F_K #190
F_K, know your enemies. Ignorance about those whom you are fighting willnot serve your cause in any way.
Show me one corrupt official in India who has ever said that he is persecuted for his corruption because he is Hindu. Indians as a whole doesnot subscribe to conspiracy theories except the Hindutva guys. I think thats one of the benefits of representative govt. for so many years, as a society you realise that you or your govt. are yourself responsible for a lot of what happens to you.

SameerJB #189
`` Having said this about historical injustices, let me differentiate them from some of the historical injustices continuing to this day. You know what I am talking about - the status of women, untouchables and many others. They need to be challenged with full force. These issues are old but even more relevant today than in the past. ``

Well said. One has to also be careful not respond to historic injustices by commiting more historic injustices like the Israelis are now doing.

ZEEMAX:

MY apologies.My computer is being repaired.I am sending this from elsewhere.I do promise to hit hard at the wannabee westerners.

_______________________________________________

Sadna--186

And if Ken Lay is Hindoo(``call me Indian secularist now``) he will argue how the everyone has been screwing the hindoos from time immemorial.How their inablity to defend themselves(call me non-violent please) has resulted in mass conversions.Ken Lay would also have a tough time justifying his brahminism whose corruption is

also subject to quotas.

Ken Lay the Hindoo would argue that a neighbour is to be blamed which is bent upon letting secret share-holders slip through who are infact terrorists who did the Enron in.

If Ken Lay is a Hindoo he will make an a impassioned plea to construct a temple(zoo)which would give sanctuary to some stone-animals who must be kissed & sucked at appropriate places.He would also blame the wretched,starving,emaciated,garbage-riffling,homeless,hindoos who form over 50%

You seen Ken lay can Lay a lot of hindoos.

Sadna #186: You have nicely constructed a reasonable projection of a recent hot topic, leading to total pandemonium and anarchy if historical or biblical injustices are given unnecessarary and disproportionate importance. Within the category of historical injustices, a larger proportion are actually explainable using better logic than biblical-koranic ones. Many Science fiction writers with advanced level scientific background, such as Issac Asimov, Carl Sagan and Carl Djerassi have deconstructed religious myths logically and in many instances, it turns out that the real event was insignificant to be taken seriously, natural calamities, epidemics and often rsulting from the ``mistakes of the victims``. It is very easy to take credit for opponents shortcoming particularly when written years after the actual events. Such writings are fictitios, presented as history because time lapsed dilutes or evaporates any fear of repraisal from ``bad guys``. A current example may be that of Mongols. Not that Mongols were not bad guys but one can write anything about them, blame them for everything because Mongolia now, a very poor third world country, can do nothing to challenge. Similarly, you must remember, by the 5th century BC, Egyptians were very weak and later during Jesus times, Ptolomys in Egypt were weak and during Mohammed`s time, one can say anything against Pharoah or Ptolomys without any fear of repraisal.

Having said this about historical injustices, let me differentiate them from some of the historical injustices continuing to this day. You know what I am talking about - the status of women, untouchables and many others. They need to be challenged with full force. These issues are old but even more relevant today than in the past.

saminashah #187
Thanks from an admirer :)

Sadna,

Nice work, that last post!

in admiration,

SameerJB
Actions in last 5-50 years and why there is nothing left in the cookie jar can hidden in narratives stretching back hundreds of years, namely in historic conflicts.

Just imagine what the Senate hearings on Enron would be in context of historic conflicts.

Ken Lay appears before the Senate subcommittee to answer questions on why vast numbers of his stockholders lost their life`s savings because they were misled by profit-loss figures put out by Enron, but he did nothing to save the situation and he still owns 8 houses and many million dollars in the bank.

In view of ongoing historic-cum-ethnic conflicts, there are large groups of his fellow church-goers raising slogans outside Capitol Hill about how Ken Lay is a Godfearing man and the Senate committee is out to defame their religion. Senate committee members get threats from people who are only defending their religion afterall, why can`t the committee examine the root cause of these threats namely historic injustices?

Now, a member of the subcommittee Robert Toricelli(Senator(D) from NJ)asks hard questions about what Ken Lay knew and did in the last 2 years as head of Enron.

If Ken Lay is Christian, he will answer by arguing how Toricelli is trying to defame Lay because of a historic conflict in which Toricelli`s ancestors, the Romans, crucified Jesus Christ and threw early Christians to the lions. They even fiddled while Rome burnt, which doesnot say much for Torricelli as member of any responsible government body( and look at those corrupt and quickchange artist Italian cabinets in his home country).

If Ken Lay is a Jew, he will point out how the Senate hearing is a continuation of persecution of Jews from biblical times, He will present statistics on how the percentage of Jews asked to testify on financial matters is abnormal and how Toricelli`s own Pope helped Nazis capture and murder Jews during WWII, and that Toricelli is the newest face in the Jewish-Christian conflict.

If Ken Lay happens to be Catholic like Toricelli, well Toricelli`s Sicilian ethnic brothers have taken control of Houston`s real estate business, its churches and underworld and Toricelli is their agent trying to defame him and force him to sell his 8 houses at a loss (Ken Lay will know this last is sadna`s personal concoction, which proves that a indoo conspiracy is everywhere)

Torricelli will then say that Ken Lay refuses to give straight answers because Ken Lay is a anti Catholic WASP, his White Anglosaxon Protestant forefathers disrespected Italian Americans calling them `dago` and he is trying to delegitimise Torricelli`s Senate election, witness the historic American injustice of preventing Catholics from winning elections until JFK scraped through somehow.

Ken Lay will point out that JFK won due to the support of Catholic gangsters in Chicago, a Papal conspiracy to undermine America`s Protestant roots and create a client state for the Vatican which is not reconciled to losing world power to state secularism. Witness how anti-abortionists have penetrated the White House and the US Supreme Court, and are even killing doctors not far from Torricelli`s NJ.

Moreover, the unprincipled stockholders of Enron are only looking for a scapegoat, afterall they were majority stockholders with their 401(k)s and stuff and even paid Lay`s salary. An ominous sign of eroding Christian values, relativism, godless materialism and refusal to take personal responsibility just like their representative the liberal democrat treehugger Torricelli.

Lay can also talk of Wall Street`s Catholic Jewish conspiracy which ran a calculated run on Enron out of pure envy of WASP success in America.

Suppose(it can happen!) the Senate committee is interested in only one conspiracy, namely the difference between Enron`s profit-loss figures and the reality, the historic basis of only one myth, namely Ken Lay`s honesty in backing these figures as Chairman and ONLY one historic moment in time, namely decision taken personally by Ken Lay, when the information on accounting practices and potential collapse of Enron was on his desk and he was alone in his room with the door closed.

With all the historic conflicts going on, they willnot get this information, so perhaps its best to say `Ken Lay, you are a victim of historic conflicts, so lets stop talking about it and start fighting it, may the best man win`.

Zeemax: ``Reply #: 163 tahmed321

``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``

Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.

Zeemax: ``Reply #: 163 tahmed321

``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``

Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.

Zeemax: ``Reply #: 163 tahmed321

``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``

Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.

Re:AlephNull #174

A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that they do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…

Re:AlephNull #174

A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that they do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…

Re:AlephNull #174

A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that new do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…

Re:tahmed #172


[I also heard of a thirteenth tribe (I have no idea what happened to the 11th an 12th ones, but presumably they did not get lost like the ten tribes you mention). This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews. But what do I know..]
Perhaps you should read my post again…After Solomon’s death The 10 tribes of Israel formed the northern kingdom of Judah and were soon overrun by the Assyrians and lost to posterity. . The 2 remaining southern tribes formed the kingdom of Israel and survived the Assyrian onslaught – their descendants are the current day Jews
After Jacob’s migration to Egypt - he adopted 2 of his grandchildren – the two sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh. Thus Joseph would beget two tribes instead of one and that would make th 13 tribes of Israel. This is a very contentious issue in Jewish religious circles and is heavily contested…….

SameerJB #177
Er, don`t look now but its Zeemax who has brought up the historicity of biblical conflicts, I am only refusing to discuss them.

Zeemax #170 Thanks for shedding some light on Li Ka Shing`s activities. I understand he is among the ten richest men in the world today. I thought he was investing heavily in China even when Hong Kong was still under the Brits. Also, I think the fact remains that overseas Chinese investors are a major source of foreign capital inflows to China. I also know of a couple of Chinese colleagues who left the US for China at mid-career, so looks like the Chinese diaspora may finally be finding peace within their homeland after almost a century of strife caused by foreign powers (starting with the Boxer revolution, the Japanese invasion, the civil war and the excesses of the cultural revolution).

Sadna: What are you trying to understand from bible and koran? History? Theology? Ethics?

Bible and Koran are as reliable sources of history as Rig Veda or Mahabharata or popul vuh or book of the dead.

History mythologized for about 1000 years and finally written down by two individuals ``E`` and ``J`` during exilic period (around 500-600BC) with practically no archeological or heiroglyphic deciphering to back with is really myths or religion rather than history.

Oh by the way, if you are feeling sympathy for being brought in chains as slaves by Nebuchanezzer to Babylon, don`t worry. Because you do not know the number of people and within 50 years, Nebuchenezzer empire was overrun by Persians and Cyrus (I or II?) freed them to go back to Jerusalem if they so desired. Less than 50 percent chose to go back and rest are/ were the forefathers of Iraqi and Iranian jews.

By the rivers of babylon poem comes from jewish literature and boneyM, a Caribbean group out of Germany (Munich or Hamburg?) who used to play in a night club sang it. Rest of their songs were basically playing famous songs by other singers. Anyway, they were never popular in the west as AbbA, BeeGees, Beatles or Carpenters except in India, Pakistan and Middle East.

Syed Ahmed is right. Assyrians has nothing to do with Syria. Assyrian Empire was in the northern part of Iraq whereas Babylonian was in the southern Iraq, Euphretes and Tigris delta - although at different times. Assyrian were earlier than Babylonians. Syrians were quite popular around the time of Jesus and later. The language spoken in the area, which Jesus also spoke was of Syrian origin, called Eramic or edamic? (sorry could not recall from top of my head). Toynbee actually calls the civilization in the surrounding areas as Syriac around 200BC to 300BC. He gives credit to Islamic Empires as much as adoption of Syriac civilization by Arabs. The Syriac civilization was a mixture of Greek, Phoenician and Babylonian/ Assyrian culture/ civilizations. The problem with Toynbee and his theory is that it does not give enough credit to Judiac culture and monotheism religions and that does not go well in the West since second world war.

Don`t mix religion with history. One has to be out of their mind to split into 12 tribes because of 12 sons and then according to their own accounts, they were slaves and laying bricks for centuries. Sure 12 tribes distinctly separated and yet all sticking together in the same constuction business except when they starting invoking god and cursing everybody who was richer than them. And god started listening by responding to curses in the form of death to first borns and famines. Do you know how many children Ramses fathered before believing in the death of his first born. According to most historian, he still holds the world record of fathering as many as 600 children, some of his own, some through infidelity and some by adoption. Imagine a person devastated with sorrow by the death of first born, with about 30 children of him being born every year.

Why not take a ball, cut into 100 pieces, water them and you have 100 Kauru brothers. I gather they knew cloning thousands of years before dolly.

Ref Zeemax #: 170

[Li Ka Shing is (1) not an expatriate Chinese as he lives in Hong Kong which is China now and; (2) he not only never invested in China, but also disinvesting from Hong Kong since it returned to Chinese sovereignty in 1997.]

I was reading, most likely in the Far Eastern Economic Review, about how Li Ka Shing was cashing in his real-estate chips and putting his money into ships so that he can float away his assets if the need arises.

[Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.]

As Lee Iacocca put so very well, the USA would have the best army in the world defending McDonald`s and drive-in banks.

What people don`t seem to understand is that the US will never give up high value-add manufacturing to other countries. There is no way you will find Intel relocating a chip design and manufacturing plant (except to Jerusalem, but that is another story). The Intel plants outside the US are in the lowest end of IC manufacturing, namely, assembly of the chip on to chip carriers. They get it done in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia or Philippines because of the low wages there. Nor will the design of the successor to Pentium 4 go overseas to India/China/Singapore or any other country with engineering expertise or low cost labor. Ditto for the Boeing Corporation. A single Boeing 747 at $150 million+ will pay for a lot of $1 T-shirts from Bangladesh or $5 shoes from Brazil

Syed Ahmad #147/148

``Since the orthodox “Jews” are a chosen people – there is no conversion into Judaism…you can be only born into it and its follows a matrilineal tradition ( ie descent from the mother) – consequently Jews can be found in all races.``

In point of fact, one can convert into Orthodox Judaism. What is true is that Orthodox Jews do not recognise conversions performed by the other branches of Judaism, i.e. they do not regards converts to Reform or Conservative Judaism as Jews. This further implies that the children of a female convert to non-Orthodox Judaism, married to a Jewish man, brought up as Jews, are nevertheless not considered Jewish by the Orthodox - and so on. The Orthodox are in other respects the most rigid in asserting the static nature of halachah (rabbinical law) and its continuing applicability .. reminiscent of sects of some other Abrahamic religions, perhaps?

tahmed #172

``I also heard of a thirteenth tribe .. This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews.``

You mean the controversial theory of the Khazar origin of Ashkenazi Jews (not all European Jews - Sephardic Jews are of clearly non-Khazar origin).

Zeemax #170
``Actually I was only stating the underlying historical reasons for the conflict and you`re still stuck in cliches`.``

Zeemax, the way I see it, in the biblical and Quranic conflicts a persecuted people like yours are unfortunately engaged in, I am on the opposite side from you. In such conflicts there is nothing to discuss, there is only to fight.
Best wishes.

Syed #148 Thanks for your knowledgable post. Seems like these Jewish tribes needed a good map and compass to keep from getting lost.

I also heard of a thirteenth tribe (I have no idea what happened to the 11th an 12th ones, but presumably they did not get lost like the ten tribes you mention). This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews. But what do I know...

Reply #: 158 tahmed321

`much of the foreign capital is owned by expatriate chinese. Li-Ka Shing, for example, is among the handful of multibillionaires in the world and a well-known source of foreign capital`

Although this post wasn`t addressed to me but Li-Ka-Shing pricked up my ears. There are several major problems with this statement.I hope you won`t mind the intervention.

Li Ka Shing is (1) not an expatriate Chinese as he lives in Hong Kong which is China now and; (2) he not only never invested in China, but also disinvesting from Hong Kong since it returned to Chinese sovereignty in 1997. He does have close contacts with the Chinese Administration though. His two major vehicles are Hutchison Whampoa which is telecommunications, and Cheung Kong Holdings, which is Real-Estate. Hutchison Whampoa sold it`s Hong Kong based Star TV to Rupert Murdoch a long time ago, and now busy rescuing Bermuda-based, US owned, Global Crossing whose 160,000 km network of fibre-optic under-sea cables span the globe in a multi-billion dollar take-over which is currently under scrutiny at the SEC of USA.

Cheung Kong sold all of the prime property it owned in Central Hong Kong and now only developing low-end residential properties in the New Territories District of Hong Kong. Li Ka Shing knows everything about global business and as far as I know he has no love for China, though the mainland Chinese keep begging him. His family was physically thrown out of their home in Shanghai by Mao`s men and he escaped to Hong Kong in a fishing boat penniless and actually sold newspapers on a bicycle in Hong Kong for a while. How he made his money ? I know that story too. In short, Li Ka Shing is not interested in China at all.

Please don`t misunderstand my intervention as I know Li Ka Shing personally as well as Stanley Ho (the Macau Casino King)and a host of others. It`s not an aggressive post but just an attempt to get the facts on record.

Reply #: 159 ali1

``Your transformation is amazing.... and inspiring.

and now that you have made it known, I doubt that you`ll have another article published at chowk.com ever....``

Well there`s no transformation till one finds proof. Thanks for your kind words.

As for Chowk, it`s an extremely responsible Forum. If I send something ridiculous of-course they won`t publish it. I hope so far I haven`t done that. But do tell me your reasons for thinking that way.

Reply #: 161 sadna

``I still do not understand what you are trying to say unless you are saying its time for violent jihad. If so, thanks but I think you can continue this conversation by yourself.``

`Ya Rab woh na samjhey hain naa samjhein gey meri baat ..

`Dey aur dil un ko jo naa dey mujh ko zubaan aur`

I give up. So be it.

Actually I was only stating the underlying historical reasons for the conflict and you`re still stuck in cliches`. But never mind.

Reply #: 162 sattar2

Thanks. I read your post on the link. It`s a perspective which I never knew. Is it authentic ? I mean it challenges a whole lot of History and Scriptures. Would love to hear more on it.

Reply #: 163 tahmed321

``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP``

Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.

Reply #: 164 Farangi_Kush

Kuch aur bhi to kahein !

Reply #: 165 harimau

Well who knows which is which, and what is what .. (Pink Floyd: Dark side of the Moon)

Reply #: 166 Romair

I`m not talking about the last name, or Pinky. I spoke about about ZA Bhutto.

Regards.

Zeemax

Re: Zeemax

``...Manufacturing of apparel is labour intensive so that`s what we do. The highly value added industry is concentrated in a few countries and Globalization will ensure to keep it that way. ...``

Is software coding any less labor intensive, and less value added? How do you explain this industry`s growth in India? And after software, biotechnology?

Ref Romair #: 166

[The Bhutto last name has done more to destroy a country than perhaps any other last name in any other country.]

Amen to that.

Shah Nawaz Bhutto - Junagadh 1947

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto - Kashmir 1965, Bangladesh 1971

Benazir Bhutto - Billions of dollars in loot

RE; Zeemax #148
[Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.]

The land of Canaan is all land west of Jerusalem that includes parts of Syria, The West Bank and present day trrans-jordan At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated.. – the Assyrians ( much like the Babylonians) are NOT Syrians ( The Syrians are a Caucasian race much like the Turks) …. They were a semtic people …. The descendants of the Assyrians can be found in modern day Iraq and Iran.. They practice an eastern orthodox ( Assyrian) Christian faith…

[Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?

Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?

Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.

The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times. ]

Another History Lesson…( According to Jewish tradition)

Abraham had a covenant with God …. Abraham beget Isaac and Ishmael …. Isaac through his lawful wife Sarah.. and therefore inherited the covenant… Isaac passed the convenant to his son Jacob ( also known as Israel ) ( he had other sons but I guess Jacob was the favored one) …. Jacob passed the convenant to his 12 sons…- hence the 12 tribes of Israel …

Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Issachar, Zevulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph, Benjamin... - Joseph and Benjamin were the sons of Rachel – Jacobs’s favourite wife….. Joseph and his exploits in Egypt are part of Judaic/Christian and Islamic testaments..- The twelve tribes settled in Egypt. They were brought back by Moses and Aaron and Joshua…After the Death of Solomon - his kingdom was divided into two – the Northen kingdom of Judah ( not to be confused with the tribe of Judah) - which comprised of the 10 tribes and the southern kingdom of Israel which comprised of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah and which clamed the legacy of David and Solomon - It was from these two tribes do the present day Jews claim descent – both the Ashkenazi’s and the Sephardic ones .

Since the orthodox “Jews” are a chosen people – there is no conversion into Judaism…you can be only born into it and its follows a matrilineal tradition ( ie descent from the mother) – consequently Jews can be found in all races. Reform Judaism is an American phenomenon and are not recognized by the orthodox rabbis… One can convert into a reform Judaic church – liz taylor, sammy davis jr , whoopi Goldberg are a notable few…


At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians ( NOT SYRIANS) and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated..

RE; Zeemax #148
[Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.]

The land of Canaan is all land west of Jerusalem that includes parts of Syria, The West Bank and present day trrans-jordan At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated.. – the Assyrians ( much like the Babylonians) are NOT Syrians ( The Syrians are a Caucasian race much like the Turks) …. They were a semtic people …. The descendants of the Assyrians can be found in modern day Iraq and Iran.. They practice an eastern orthodox ( Assyrian) Christian faith…

[Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?

Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?

Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.

The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times. ]

Another History Lesson…( According to Jewish tradition)

Abraham had a covenant with God …. Abraham beget Isaac and Ishmael …. Isaac through his lawful wife Sarah.. and therefore inherited the covenant… Isaac passed the convenant to his son Jacob ( also known as Israel ) ( he had other sons but I guess Jacob was the favored one) …. Jacob passed the convenant to his 12 sons…- hence the 12 tribes of Israel …

Reuven, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Issachar, Zevulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph, Benjamin... - Joseph and Benjamin were the sons of Rachel – Jacobs’s favourite wife….. Joseph and his exploits in Egypt are part of Judaic/Christian and Islamic testaments..- The twelve tribes settled in Egypt. They were brought back by Moses and Aaron and Joshua…After the Death of Solomon - his kingdom was divided into two – the Northen kingdom of Judah ( not to be confused with the tribe of Judah) - which comprised of the 10 tribes and the southern kingdom of Israel which comprised of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah and which clamed the legacy of David and Solomon - It was from these two tribes do the present day Jews claim descent – both the Ashkenazi’s and the Sephardic ones .

Since the orthodox “Jews” are a chosen people – there is no conversion into Judaism…you can be only born into it and its follows a matrilineal tradition ( ie descent from the mother) – consequently Jews can be found in all races. Reform Judaism is an American phenomenon and are not recognized by the orthodox rabbis… One can convert into a reform Judaic church – liz taylor, sammy davis jr , whoopi Goldberg are a notable few…


At about 700BC the Northern kingdom was overrun by the Assyrians ( NOT SYRIANS) and the 10 tribes of Northern Israel were lost or emigrated..

``Muslims do recognise but it`s because of lack of credibile & respected leadership over the Muslim world spectrum that they have failed to state the point. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was that leader``

Pakistanis have a deathwish. Anyone who wants the exact same people who have destroyed Pakistan back into power have a deathwish. A country, whose even educated people, cannot differentiate their heroes from their villians, is doomed.

The Bhutto last name has done more to destroy a country than perhaps any other last name in any other country.

Ref Zeemax #: 160

[Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?]

You know, every idiot living in a third-world country is now trying to move to Israel claimng to be one of the lost tribes. Look at the Nagas/Mizos, etc. They were happily hunting heads till the British put an end to that practice. Now one of them is making the claim that they are descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel and want the right of emigration to Israel. Of course they conveniently forget the fact that their features are predominantly Mongoloid, not Semitic.

[Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.]

The Afghans also claim to be descendants of Greek soldiers! Anything not to be an Afghan, I suppose.

Zeemax #160 You write ``For example, they can`t afford to manufacture their apparel now because it`ll cost $100 for a single T-shirt``

These examples are becoming increasingly irrelevant. Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP. Automation of the factory floor is making manufacturing a knowledge and capital intensive task, with some crumbs like garments left over for a little while longer for the poor countries. The real money in the economy today (as it will be increasingly so tomorrow) is in services, and that that money will be made by people having the skills and education needed.

Re Zeemax (#160):

You have raised an interesting question about the tribes of Israel. I once briefly responded to this topic while explaining the events that transpired during and immediately after the crucifixion of Issa-ibne-Marriam (pbuh) and some misconceptions regarding his “ascension”.

Here’s the link … good luck.

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=phoodbhoy_dec0701&n=170#reply405

Asad

Zeemax #160
I still donot understand what you are trying to say unless you are saying its time for violent jihad. If so, thanks but I think you can continue this conversation by yourself..

Reply #: 148 SameerJB

Sure my hand is raised. It`s only that every board invariably turns to India/Pakistan bashing regardless of what the author is trying to say.

Reply #: 151 tahmed321

I take your point. So I retract my earlier statement. Although I`m too lazy for that extra click !

Reply #: 153 friend, Reply #: 156 SameerJB

The China example is a good one. Where else could you go to a restaurant on the Great Wall and served with days old rotten stinking fish, and when you reject it with horror, your taxi driver laps it up as he couldn`t afford even that! The Shanxi province alone is larger than Pakistan both in terms of population and area, and the centre for metallurgical industry, but largely the masses are little better off than animals and human life is cheap.

I subscribe to the worker nation argument. Globalization is essentially drawing a start line and asking everyone to run when the pistol is fired. However, the majority of nations are handicapped, while only a few are advantaged as these had entered the Industrial Era at the turn of the 19/20th century. That gives them a 100 year head start as no single thirld world nation in comparison can be said to have entered the Industrial Era since then (with the exception of Korea, but it was stopped in it`s tracks as well in 1997). How does one expect them to compete?

I believe it`s all about value-addition in goods & services. The developed nations have high value addition, very highly skilled workforce and therefore very high minimum wage structures. For example, they can`t afford to manufacture their apparel now because it`ll cost $100 for a single T-shirt. But someone has to manufacture it. Manufacturing of apparel is labour intensive so that`s what we do. The highly value added industry is concentrated in a few countries and Globalization will ensure to keep it that way. Without Governmental protection and Tariff controls, the sibling value-added industry in developing countries will not be able to compete and will stifle. While the Sweat Shops will prosper selling T-shirts. At the same time the massive population markets in these countries will be an open door to all value-added goods & services which are not manufactured locally, whether they need them or not.

That, my friend, is Globalization. I reiterate I`m not a conspiracy thorist, but it all seems just so strange to me.

Reply #: 155 sadna

``sorry I could not understand what you meant to say and I don`t remember either my Bible or my BoneyM``

Oh .. but those are the essential ingredients of my arguments. Bible, as are all Holy books, is relevant in achieving an understanding. I would never have understood Qura`an if I hadn`t read the Bible.

That particular reference to Psalm 137 was about Israel. Interestingly this particular Psalm was recorded by BoneyM and initiated the Disco revolution in the 70`s. I quote it below:

``By the rivers of Babylon we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion. Psalm 137:1(NEB)``

This passage is based on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian army under Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE. The Psalm was written in remembrance of when the Jewish people were killed or dragged off as slaves to Babylon.

In verses 8 and 9 of Psalm 137 we have some of the most violent lines in the Hebrew Bible. ``Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and

dashes them against the rocks.`` The Hebrews ask for revenge.

Psalm 137:1-6, relates to the River of Euphrates and Babylon, the land of Israel`s captivity, ``By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we

wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song: and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the Lord`s song in a strange land? If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning. If I do not

remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.``

Bible says ``Is the country northeast of Palestine of the land of Canaan, and it is called Syria`` Syria was once a great empire from approximately 1,000 B.C. to 625 B.C. It ruled all of the orient for about 375 years. Egypt and Israel were under Syrian rule at one time. Syria conquered the ten tribes of Israel and sent them into exile. Syria decimated the ten tribes of the children of Israel.

Where are the ten lost Tribes of Israel now?

Only a small fraction of the ten tribes joined the tribe of Judah and became Jews. This is an important aspect to understand as we must not fall for the false notions which claim that the ten lost tribes of Israel are the forefathers of the European nations. What, then happened to the lost tribes ?

Anthropologists now trace the roots of some races, such as the Afghan people, to be the descendants of Israel. This may be true.

The Afghans were excluded from the nation of Israel because they never converted to the tribe of Judah, they never became Jews. But the battle continues between the Syrians (Muslims) and the tribes of Judah. It all has a very distant and a very dark historical perspective going back to pre-Christianity times.

If you haven`t listened, do get a CD of BoneyM. It`s great dance music. The message however is Spiritual.

Regards.

SameerJB #156 I agree with you that capital inflows to a country are to be encouraged. The US became a mighty industrial country due to massive inflows of European capital in the late 19th century (which financed railroads, among other things). Even today, US states compete with one another to attract foreign investments. friend #153 You and your sources seem unaware of is that much of the foreign capital is owned by expatriate chinese. Li-Ka Shing, for example, is among the handful of multibillionaires in the world and a well-known source of foreign capital - the Chinese expat community (with those in South East Asia alone estimated to have a worth of well over half a trillion dollars) has been called the third largest economy in the world (after US and Japan). The growing expat Indian community is already a significant source of foreign capital inflows to India.

So: capital inflows are to be encouraged. In backward societies, life is seen as a lose-lose (or at best, a win-lose) situation, and any win-win situations are viewed with suspicion. Of course one needs to have a framework of sound policies and good governance to get maximum value out of foreign capital, but I find it hard to imagine a situation where foreign investments and greater competition and modern management methods and modern technologies they bring in is bad for the economy.

Farangi Kush #154 Welcome back to chowk. You write: ``What about Christain South Americans & Mexicans,Atheist Russians,Whatever East Europeans,------in short almost 4/5 billion souls living in over 98% of countries,otherwise known as the Third world.`` I suppose them too, and no doubt many people in rich countries too. But let us have the confidence to rise above what we perceive to be a weakness that some people in other cultures may have too. After all: if you are flabby and overweight, then the answer is to accept that fact and do what you can as one person about it, not simply point out that you are not the only overweight person on earth.

You write ``Looking in the rear & side-view mirrors does result in safe driving.And once one has safely backed the vehicle one does want to go in forward gear...``. Agreed. Rear view mirrors are great for backing into the past. Is that what we want to do? While the rest of humanity builds upon discoveries and lessons learnt by previous generations, we blithely skip these lessons. The logical conclusion would be for us to move back to the caves and eat raw flesh. I suggest we concern ourselves with what is coming down the road over the next 20-30 years, since that is the responsibility of all adults living today.

Zeemax,

Your transformation is amazing.... and inspiring.

and now that you have made it known, I doubt that you`ll have another article published at chowk.com ever.... so might as well keep on interacting!

friend: [Do you really think that a substantial portion of that 218 billions went to China? ]

I said about half of the Wal-Mart products were made in China. It means about 109 billions. Accounting for Wal-Mart`s mark up of somewhere between 30-50 percent, it is reduced to about 60 billion. Middlemen and manufacturers probably earned from their mark-up of say 50 percent, reducing the products value before leaving China to around 30 billion dollars. Taking into account the cost of manufacturing at Chinese factories, China perhaps made 5-7 bilion dollars - I guess. Now Pakistan`s total exports are around 10 billion dollare. If I am right, 5 billion dollars is not spare change for a poor country. How else can they make such a big Boing order that Boing Company takes out all the stops whenever any US policy is deemed detrimental to China. Also the Three Gorges dam can not be built by cheap labor alone. This is a huge, 100`s of billion dollar project.

Sure, 5 billion dollars for worker nation and 210 billion dollars for the capitalist nation looks lopsided but the ball is in China`s court to refuse if they do not like it. It is exploiation but the whole natural and life cycle is based on exploitiation - isn`t it? Life eats life to survive. Don`t we exploit the rights of not-pretty when we seek beautiful wife or handsome husband? Son`t we want our children to come out at the top in School, knowing too well that it means no other kid should make it to the top?

Zeemax #147
Zeemax collectively on chowk, posters seem to have a lot of experience of interacting with archives, so kindly interact right back :)

Re the end of your article, sorry I couldnot understand what you meant to say and I don`t remember either my Bible or my BoneyM(if I ever listened ie)

re Zeemax #145:

Sir: I am hearing you loud and clear. Go ahead. Men with big egos can be a lot of fun sometimes :)

later

-sac

Zeemax: How do you keep this board alive? By sending some other other board (along with the discussion taking place there) prematurely to the archives instead?

Yes my friend, you indeed have a big ego.

Zeemax #142 ``I`ll respond to this if the board is alive. I don`t want to talk to archives.``

Excuses, excuses.

tahmad:---139

We Pakistanis?

What about Christain South Americans & Mexicans,Atheist Russians,Whatever East Europeans,------in short almost 4/5 billion souls living in over 98% of countries,otherwise known as the Third world.

Looking in the rear & side-view mirrors does result in safe driving.And once one has safely backed the vehicle one does want to go in forward gear...otherwise why the analogy.

Could it be the huge truck-drivers,the 24-wheelers,the motor-cycle gangsters who are bent upon ramming into the dinkies,and then pulling out the bodies from the carnage(by their ears) into the 20the century transplant centres & morgues--for a fair price?

Now that I assure you is no accident.

SameerJB #148

``Wal-Mart Stores reported 218 billions dollar sale during 2001. Anybody can go to Wal-Mart and notice that more than half of their products were made in China. Do you think it is pure exploitation of cheap worker nation with nothing in it for China? They are already moving from producing cheap labor products to value-added products. They are pouring their huge trade surplus into infrastructure and big projects as fast as possible. ``

Sameer,

Do you really think that a substantial portion of that 218 billions went to China? And how much of it went to actual producers. If I talk to my chinese friends, tt appears that chinese worker get mimimum wages. ( However, it still appears to be better than earnings from farm wages etc). They are basically able to survive due to state supported housing, transport and medical system.

Regards

tahamed #139

[``... we Pakistanis seem to be interested only in what we see in the backview mirror, not in what lies in the road ahead. And that is why we keep getting hit by reality over and over again (the latest being the attempts of misguided generals in Pakistan to introduce a 14th century ``Islami Hakumat`` in Afghanistan, and ended up being pulled by our ears into the 20th century. But we will of course slip back into our dream world of Islamic glories if only the world would let go of our ear...ouch!...``]


Excellent, excellent, excellent.

...SR

Reply #: 141 sadna

``God is indeed watching, but only man can intervene in this lifetime.``

Okay so now we go on to the real stuff. If you really want to know.

But this is heavy. Do go back to my article and read the last observations and contemplate. Then we`ll talk.

Rgds

Zeemax

Reply #: 141 sadna

``God is indeed watching, but only man can intervene in this lifetime.``

Okay so now we go on to the real stuff. If you really want to know.

But this is heavy. Do go back to my article and read the last observations and contemplate. Then we`ll talk.

Rgds

Zeemax

Sac my friend,

I still have to answer your question re which one of the Soros Quantum Funds made $100 billion. I also have to answer your question as to who killed the British Pound in 1992. You didn`t ask though who rescued it.

Do participate more. You`re one person who knows a lot of things. I`ll tell you the answers to the above if you`re there to hear.

Rgds

urstruly #140 ``when it only makes sense to the third world?``

Glad to see you have been elected to speak for the entire third world on chowk.

Reply #: 129 tahmed321

I`ll respond to this if the board is alive. I don`t want to talk to archives. And yes I have a big ego. I don`t have a problem with that.

Rgds

Zeemax: I will raise my hands to keep this board alive if you raise hands with me as in taking oath of becoming active participants again on a variety of issues.

I agree that globalization is somewhat capitalist and worker nations concept but at the same time, the rate of economic growth for workers can surpass the rate of capitalist nations. You know, what it means in terms of reducing gap between rich and poor nations.

Wal-Mart Stores reported 218 billions dollar sale during 2001. Anybody can go to Wal-Mart and notice that more than half of their products were made in China. Do you think it is pure exploitation of cheap worker nation with nothing in it for China? They are already moving from producing cheap labor products to value-added products. They are pouring their huge trade surplus into infrastructure and big projects as fast as possible.

Zeemax:

I am still waiting for someone to give me their opinion on Anthony Sampsons` book ``The money lenders``---you & Fuzair can oblige.

Also your comments on the other books would be welcome as well.My cut-&-paste about Enron & its con-game also went unread--I suspect,but it was so relevant!

____________________________________.

Zeemax:

Please access www.IslamiQ.com----I`m sure you must be aware of it.I`ve been able to wow a lot of non-muslims,goras particularly,who can widen their markets by catering to muslim sensibilities.

A start HAS to be made somewhere & somehow ZEEMAX.

Every system is subservient to Desire & then will.

``Aaj bhee ho jo `Braheem kaa eemaan paidaa

Aag kr sktee hai,andaaz e gulistaan paidaa``

________________________.

I have a lot of rumbling & jumbling going through my mind ever since I read your article Zeemax (still trying to contain myself), but somehow I have been unable to harness my thoughts.There is much, way too much, stuff to consolidate & then concise.

PS:Please count me in to continue to inter-act.

Zeemax #137
Thanks I was joking, I know Leila :)

``Spirituality in Islam is an essential ingredient of Good Governance. The whole system revolves around it as one can cheat anyone but God is always watching. That Faith is supposed to prevent corruption, injustice, cheating and so forth. ..``

Zeemax, one cannot elect a Prime Minister and let him go unpunished for corruption because God will anyway take care of it. God is indeed watching, but only man can intervene in this lifetime. Then how is man to judge whether someone is cheating or not? A person who goes to the extent of cheating can just as unashamedly present himself as a spiritual person too. Better judge him only by his actions. By taking interest in the spirituality of public figures, you just provide an extra covering story for the same old charlatans which they didnot have earlier.

``Certainly spirituality can neither be taught nor accounted for .. so it`s a dilemma.``

I agree, thats why faith and spirituality are good values to `encourage` but not to `verify`, because anyway people make a choice to take it or leave it, as Zafar said elsewhere, solely in their own individual consciences.

Fuzair

Thanks for your reply. You said ``hardly anyone in economics really subscribes to dependency theory now; ``

Question: Why would western capitalist school of thought subscribe to dependency theory when it only makes sense to the third world?

Zeemax

Thank you.

Zeemax #137 On ``Capitalist nations and Worker nations``, you ignore a more fundamental reality, and one that gives rise to globalization itself. This is the reality of automation, which in turn is the result of the IT revolution. The fact is that the share of human labor in the production function has diminished drastically, while what is being termed the knowledge component has increased sharply. This talk of capitalist vs. worker nations is based on realities that were true a hundred years ago, not the ones we live in today and certainly not the reality that is round the corner. But then, we Pakistanis seem to be interested only in what we see in the backview mirror, not in what lies in the road ahead. And that is why we keep getting hit by reality over and over again (the latest being the attempts of misguided generals in Pakistan to introduce a 14th century ``Islami Hakumat`` in Afghanistan, and ended up being pulled by our ears into the 20th century. But we will of course slip back into our dream world of Islamic glories if only the world would let go of our ear...ouch!

PS I am sorry if I sounded mad at you on BCCI - there is always a thin line between being clear and being polite, and I chose to err in favor of the former on chowk.

How many people want to keep this board alive ? Raise your hands. It`s second last from the archives of Chowk.

Zeemax

Reply #: 136 FARANGI_KUSH

Well ... will wonders never cease. Welcome Back Farangi_Kush. You`ve been sorely missed.

``Tavvoquo thhee jinheeN sey,khastgee kee daad paaney kee

Voh humm sey bhee ziaada KUSH-ta e tegh e sitam nikley.``

I suppose this is a compliment. But hats-off to you Sir !

Any input on the `Islamic Society` arguments I have put forth ?

Reply #: 135 tahmed321

``You are being so-o-o-o Paki elite when you talk about global conspiracies...``

Well at least you aren`t mad at me anymore over BCCI. Yes I have seen all those unfinished structures in Thailand and Indonesia. Sad isn`t it ? What a waste. The reasons you enumerated are also correct, but my article ``IMF-Friend or Foe`` refers to the reasons as to how the tigers were turned to pussycats.

Reply #: 132 sadna

``I`ll do better and ask you who is this Leila :)?``

It`s a mythical love story of Leila and Mujnoo. Ring a bell ? Leila was the woman though you didn`t know that even after hearing the WHOLE story. Just kidding.

Spirituality in Islam is an essential ingredient of Good Governance. The whole system revolves around it as one can cheat anyone but God is always watching. That Faith is supposed to prevent corruption, injustice, cheating and so forth. Certainly spirituality can neither be taught nor accounted for .. so it`s a dilemma. But that doesn`t mean the concept is not valid.

``And for example, his spirituality cannot ensure that he is the best person to negotiate the terms of a large business deal``

Believe me, negotiating business deals is the easy part. Getting the spirituality is the tough part. Once you have the spiritual strength and Faith, you can work miracles.

Reply #: 131 Urstruly

``I think the Globalization is in fact Macro level Capitalism where there will be Capitalist nations and Worker nations..``

I agree. I suspect globalisation will achieve exactly that.

Rgds

Zeemax