Empty Vessels And All That Jazz

Welcome back, Zeemax

Without truth there can be no democracy, we get Pakistan. And without complete truth we get USA. The utopia may always elude the world. In the meantime, an informed and free press is an asset in Public Relationing in the free world.

The media is a neccessary thorn in the side of the best Governments. It takes immense far-sightedness and a very clear understanding of the other sides point of view and your own stance and its rationale to be a really good Information Minister. An objectivity and a credibility that so far all our Information Ministers lack. It appears to me that they live in an unreal world and have not done the necessary homework on the society they claim to represent.

Regards

S

Zeemax, take this coming from

Same old PPP bs which now has makes me sicker than ever before...

1) Your admiration for Zulfikar Ali Bhutto is for the wrong reasons. One thing I regret the most is his Pan-Islamic endeavor. What did he do except alienate the Muslim World and radicalize it even though he was perhaps the most secular of leaders of his time. Give him credit for his other endeavors.. his view of the Third World and his strategy to bring Pakistan into the fold of as many International organizations as possible.

2) With all due respect, and I am as ardent a Bhutto admirer as any, but if Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Agha Hassan Abedi are what we are waiting for then sorry to say we are not progressing any time soon.

3) Others behind the oil embargo led by ZA Bhutto were King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, Qaddafi of Libya, President Bomadean of Algeria, Idi Amin of Uganda and ex-President Sukarno of Indonesia. These were all leaders of global stature and influence.

Bhutto and Sukarno excepted, for they did have many great qualities if they were marred by major flaws, who else is a leader of global stature and influence. When will our childish fascination with so called anti-imperialists and leaders with bravado end?

King Faisal : A Monarch with little or no value except his oil and his rhetoric of hate against Israel.

Qaddafi: A leader of some promise back in the day, but largely eccentric and weird.

Idi Amin: A Brutal and unsavory character who brutalized his own people with a violent dictatorship and today lives a life of shame in Exile.

Next you ae going to tell me you like Enver Pasha.

You want to talk leaders ... Talk the pragmatists that the Muslim world needs... Kemal Ataturk, the man who kept the Turks away from International conflicts and who taught them how to do away with excess baggage... Jinnah, who valued the importance of the British Constitutional tradition and the importance of being legally right and who didn`t engage in any rabble rousing... Anwar Saadat who made peace with Israel securing a better life for his people... these are the true heroes...

`` mainly because (1) Malaysia is well managed and not as ethnically & politically diverse, and (2) not surrounded by enemies. Other countries i.e. Pakistan are not as fortunate.``



A interesting perspective ..well argued, but quite flawed in places, first of Malaysia is MORE diverse than pakistan, do re read Malaysian History.

ZAB was one flawed human being, brilliance does not mean great..psychopaths are brilliant people..but flawed and dangerous...in ZAB`s case he was exceptionally cruel to his own and his enemies.

YLH...SADAT you gotta be kidding me!!! His mishandling of the `73 war destroyed what wa sleft of the unity of the Arab world, he could have won a major military victory over the Israeli`s but because of excessive caution he buckled, all he did accomplish was arrest many of his friends to save himself and his giovt from collapsing, and also won massive amounts of Aid for his country, which if you look at now is no better of economically..politically it`s worse...

{{mainly because (1) Malaysia is well managed and not as ethnically & politically diverse, and }}

i`m in malaysia right now and i can assure you it is anything but well-managed...yes, compared to south asia it is better off, but it is still pretty damn pathetic...one need only take a 45-min flight over to singapore to realize what a banana republic the country is...

Zakkk,

Reply #: 3

I always respond to opinions published to my articles.

1. Accepted. Perhaps I don`t know enough of Malaysian History. Apologise. Will catch up on it.

2. ZAB was never cruel to ordinary people. He was only cruel to back-stabbers. You see, there are Rent-Seekers. The people who demand subsidies from the ex-checquer of Pakistan because of their influence over the system. Rent-Seekers means the people who demand rent for their influence. ZAB tried to address that and was hanged.

3. Yes ZAB was flawed as are all great people. So was Winston Churchill,Sukarno, Lenin, Napolean and so forth. Churchill used to drink Cognac in his bath tub in the morning and carried a hip flask of Brandy. He was probably drunk when he said `We shall fight on Land, Beaches, and elsewhere for Britain. We shall never surrender.`` Those words won the second world war by motivating the allied forces. Sukarno was a womaniser, loved women. Lenin was an obssessed person who destroyed anyone who opposed him but created Russia. Napolean was a homosexual, and a passive one. What else do you wanna know ? Name me any Great man in History and I will tell you they all had their own individual, personal weaknesses. But they were Great nevertheless.

4. Anwar Saadat ? I never mentioned him in the article. Where did that come from ? Tell me if you wanna know about who Saadat was and what he did.

5. Please do not show disrespect to King Faisal. May God bless his Soul. He was the person who knew what it`s all about and wanted to share Saudi Arabia`s wealth. After him, Saudi Arabia is now in debt. That`s the richest nation on earth mind you.

6. Qaddafi is certainly not weird. Eccentric, yes. I have great respect for him. Only Qaddafi has managed to survive amongst all others.

7. I have no respect for Kemal Ataturk. He destoyed

Zee, you sure took it to a Max here.
Agree with you on ZAB but he has been gone a long while now. Pakistanis cannot look to the past
to find their future.
There was a lot of passion behind this writing.
Hope that there a lot of Pakistanis like you left
in my country of origin.
For now, Pakistanis need to support Musharraf til a elected civilian Government can replace him. ``Think Global Act Local``.

Ras

The conversation was lost at Kemal Ataturk. Wrong click on my part.

- All Great Men have personal flaws. Winston Chrchill used to drink Cognac in his bath tub in the morning and carried a hip-flask of Brandy. He was probably drunk when he said, ``We shall fight on Land, Beaches, everywhere else for our freedom. We shall never surrender.`` Those words won the second world war as these motivated the allied troops.

- Kemal ataturk. I have something to say about Ataturk.

Greece, the men there are thieves and their women work as prostitutes. Greece is the poorest in the European Union alongwith Turkey even though they have white skin. The Greek empire is unforgettable. But they are still poor. Thing is they don`t want it that way. They still have the Mosque in the Colloseum of Athens. Greece is part of the Ottoman Empire and they want to be Muslims. They don`t want their women to work as prostitues. They want that Islam back which Ataturk destroyed by erasing the Ottoman History of Greece.

Ataturk was not a Hero. He was a Devil.

- Pls do not show disrespect towards King Faisal. He had wanted to share the oil wealth with all Muslims. He was the only one amongst Middle-Eastern Arabs who knew all the answers.

- Idi amin. He was eccentric, yes, but what`s wrong with that?

- MA Jinnah. He was the greatest leader of them all. This was one person who didn`t have any personal shortcomings or quirks. Only one thing, he had tubercuelosis. Health problems over which he had no control. He created Pakistan and died a year later. His own people like Liaquat Ali Khan helped in his demise.

MA Jinnah married a Parsi girl, Pooja, their daughter is still a Parsi in NY who has never visited Pak even though she owns the Mohatta Palace in Karachi by inheritance. That is MA Jinnah whose tomb we revere but we never invited his daughter to come and take what belongs to her because she`s Parsi. Non-Muslim. So wouldn`t MA Jinnah be turnning in his grave ? If MA Jinnah had survived a few years, Pakistan would have been amongst the premier nations on earth. But our own people killed him.

Rgds

Reply #: 1 Saima Shah

Saima, Thanks for your opening remarks. I`m an original member of the Chowk Community and shall never leave. However, Chowk`s original goal has become vague, and no one at Chowk told us why. Many original participants have left Chowk like SamirJB, SR, A Gnostic, Farngi-Kush and many others. Please tell us why we were sidelined.

You said:

``Without truth there can be no democracy, we get Pakistan. And without complete truth we get USA. The utopia may always elude the world. In the meantime, an informed and free press is an asset in Public Relationing in the free world.``

Yes true. So who`s going to do it ?

You also said `` The media is a neccessary thorn in the side of the best Governments. It takes immense far-sightedness and a very clear understanding of the other sides point of view and your own stance and its rationale to be a really good Information Minister. An objectivity and a credibility that so far all our Information Ministers lack. It appears to me that they live in an unreal world and have not done the necessary homework on the society they claim to represent.``

Yes. You know the whole works. Are you willing to burn your boats and do your bit for this country ?

I`m a British Citizen with a right to live anywhere in the world including US. But I prefer to live in Pak. This is my homeland. US isn`t. I have foresaken many comforts for that reason. One must have have the courage and the strength.

Yes Media capabilities are lacking here. Do come back.

Rgds.

Zeemax

ZAB was exceptionally cruel to his own party people. the list is quite long, from J.A Rahim to Mairaj Muhammad Khan, to the excesses he ordered done in Baluchistan, and his suspension of human rights right after the 73 constituion was promulgated. Opposition Leaders like Mufti Mehmood were bodily thrown out of the National Assembly, his closest friends often had their phone lines tapped...anything else?

The discussion about flawed individuals is an old one, while I agree Churchill drank, Hitler did not. while at the other end we have drunkards like Boris Yeltsin!!,

Nor do I believe Sher Shah Suri, or Saladin, we all have vices indulging in them in excess destroys us. Greatness is not that simple, Churchill was defeated in the 1945 election in his own time, Soekarno`s failure to establish a insitiutionalised federal, plural system led to his overthrow. The same can be said for ZAB, my point to this thread is simple; the people you named weren`t that great!!:)

The Sadat thing was for YLH...

. . . jazz, as we all probably know, is a science in the form of music that excels in the art of improvising as we go along . . .

Great piece Zeemax.

Lot of cynicism with lots of truths

.

``Karzai`s treachery is already clear although no one sees it. He obviously has Mullah Omar as well as Bin Laden under his protection, and the world believes they just disappeared from the face of the earth. No one has asked the question that when Karzai became PM, both these characters were in Afghanistan. So where did they go ? Karzai couldn`t have got Kandhar without these two people`s support. They`re right there with him. It`s a very strange game, which US doesn`t understand. Or perhaps they do; but looking the other way.``(Zeemax)

Zeemax you`re 100% on the target.

The man in that outlandish flowing robe is an enigma. He certainly is no whirling dervish. His contribution in anti Taliban fight is zilch. His power base is zero.

Americans had to rescue his arse from becoming another abdulhaq dangling from Omar`s crane -- and yet he double crossed the Americans in brooad daylight over Osama and Omar -- still the Juvenile George was swooning over him!!

What`s the deal -- can you elaborate further?

jazz - in my opinion is - acquired taste !!

Zeemax

I have only read half of what you have written. So far so good. Then I came across this ``ZAB was never cruel to ordinary people. He was only cruel to back-stabbers.`` in your reply #5. Before I read rest of what you have written I like to see how do you explain Dalai Camp and Shahi Qila.

This is not a hostile question. I actually think you mostly write fair and square. Your IMF article has been a beacon of light for a while.

Re: Zeemax

Just a few comments...

First; this was a slightly off the target article in that sense that it was apt, but without being sermonizing.

Secondly, if one looks at the ``foot print`` of Musharraf, since October 12,1999, one will discern a methodological approach to his political meanderings - first milch cow of Pakistani politics to be sacrificed was the bureaucracy and the abolition of the old system. Next to follow was the religious groups, under the pretext of Nine Elevan. This leaves the other two groups next in line; the army and feudals. The feudals will come before the army and there is evidence to the point in that Washington Post, in its editorials, lately has been advocating a quid pro quo policy for Pakistan and that is to force internal changes in Pakistan through external pressure. The two most obvivious aspects of this policy, which are influencing Pakistan`s foreign policy are the American war on terrorism and the Indian mobilization on Pakistan`s eastern border.

Musharraf will ``move`` against the feudal, because he has to remove their influence if he really wants to bring ``grassroots`` democracy to Pakistan. The educational qualification for elected office was merely to dischortle this groups traditional strangle hold on poliitics. Pakistan being an agricultural nation with a non existence service sector and an industry, which is nationalized and thus, cannot act as the scintilla of a social change in the country, Musharraf has to amend the social fabric of Pakistan carefully without endangering his basic constinuency; the army, which is a landed institution in Pakistan.

Lastly; it really does not matter whether Churchill was drunk or not, when he made his famous speech in the House of Commons. Churchill won the Second World War, for Great Britain, because he was able to convince his countrymen, dismayed by the Great Deperession and confused by the policies of appeasment, to regain their old believe in the glory of Britain. Ataturk, like Churchill, was a great leader, because he was able to convince the majority of the Turks that his vision was the right and in doing, the Turks came to see themselves as Ataturk saw them - a proud nation capable of greatness.

Musharraf will have to convince Pakistanis that his vision is the right one and once the nation starts to see itself in a similar light as Musharraf, it will embark on the road to recovery and prosperity. The challege to Musharraf is that he dealing with a nation grown cynical by the past claims of leaders, who had a vision for Pakistan, but were found lacking in their committments to that particular vision. The end result being that the articulation of a political vision in Pakistan became associated with lies and this, sadly, created a sense of distrust between the ruled and the rulers in Pakistan, which Musharraf has to bridge in order to realize his vision for Pakistan.

Just like Herando Cortez burned his boats on arriving in the New World, Musharraf has burned his boats after September 11, 2001 and he has no option, but to follow the road ahead to its logical conclusion.

Ciao

Zeemax,



Kemal Ataturk

Have you ever been to Turkey? Have you? I doubt it... In any event, I was merely mentioning the difference between Pragmatists ie Jinnah, Ataturk and Sadaat, and Don Quixotes like the ones you mention. On Ataturk two endorsements should do because you seem to have respect for both men (not that Kemal Ataturk, like Jinnah, needs any endorsements) :

``His death has come as the greatest blow to the Muslim world. He was the foremost figure in the Muslim East. In Iran and Afghanistan, in Egypt and of course in Turkey, he demonstrated to the consternation of the rest of the world that Muslim Nations were coming into their own. In Kemal Ataturk the Islamic world has lost a great hero. With the example of this great man in front of them as an inspiration, will the Muslims of India still remain in quagmire?`` (Jinnah 1938: Presidential address to League Convention)

Jinnah we know was a big fan of Kemal Ataturk.

And,

` As a Boy I read about Kemal Ataturk and revelled in his struggle against obscurantism and backwardness` (Zulfikar Ali Bhutto while laying the foundation of Kemal Ataturk Memorial at Larkana)

And also try picking up a copy of Allama Iqbal`s book .. `Reconstruction of religious thought in Islam` and read what Allama Iqbal had to say about Kemal Ataturk.

In a letter to the Muslims of East Africa Iqbal wrote:

``The Muslims should pray for the health of Gazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha and Qaid e Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah, because Muslims still need them``.

Now if destroying something as decadent and incomprehensible as the Ottoman Empire in the 20th century is destroying `Islam` than all I can say is that I pity `Islam`... Ofcourse Kemal Ataturk`s vision of Islam was different :

`The Islam that I profess has nothing against reason or progress`.

And it is Kemal Ataturk`s Example and Jinnah`s vision that is leading Musharraf at this critical hour. Let us not forget that. As for the `caliphate` ... the founder of Pakistan didn`t lift a finger to help that Khilafat Movement... seems to me that Khilafat didn`t mean much to the progressive Modern Muslim anyway...



Now coming to Idi Amin:

My dear dear fellow... Aisha Sarwari has lived in Uganda during Idi Amin`s time... and I think I`ll trust her judgement of Idi Amin. Idi Amin was a crazed dictator and nothing more.



King Faisal:

Let me tell you something... Progress lies in Democratization, and leading your people to a progressive future.. King Faisal was nothing but an Arabian Monarch who started the entire `Hate rhetoric` against Israel... Let me make something clear to you... Islamic World is not going to be great again when it blows up Israel ... or when it destroys New york city. Its going to be great again, when there is democracy, progress, modernity, human rights, equal rights for women. How much did Faisal do for this? Nothing .. Zilch .. zero.



On Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah:

While I agree with you that Quaid e Azam was a great leader, and he is my most favorite hero, he was not necessarily faultless... he was a human being. His greatness was that despite that he was incorruptible, selfless, and Honest. That is his greatness... I have already dedicated the other board to this conversation.

Here is how little you know about your own Quaid e Azam M.A.Jinnah while you are busy glorifying insignificant dictators and Monarchs of Africa and Arabia, while paying lip service to Jinnah and his superb value system which you all but ignore in Pakistan:

``MA Jinnah married a Parsi girl, Pooja, their daughter is still a Parsi in NY who has never visited Pak even though she owns the Mohatta Palace in Karachi by inheritance``

Jinnah`s wife`s name was Ruttie Petit Jinnah. Their daughter visited Pakistan at Quaid e Azam`s funeral... and the Mohatta Palace in Karachi is not hers by inheritance. It was left to Fatima Jinnah and is now a Museum. Her inheritance is the Malabar Hill Mansion in Bombay which Quaid e Azam made in the early 1940s.

``That is MA Jinnah whose tomb we revere but we never invited his daughter to come and take what belongs to her because she`s Parsi. Non-Muslim.``

Parsis in Pakistan are Jinnah`s most ardent supporters, but Dina amazingly is not Parsi. She was married to Neville Wadia who was a parsi convert to Christianity. She remains I suppose an agnostic Muslim by faith.

Anwar Saadat`s greatness lies in the fact that he recognized that eliminating Israel forever is not the way peace will be achieved.