Ha Ha To the Axis of Evil Speech

#110 Raw Ulcers:

Good Point.

LA times has a story yesterday : the last days of Bamiyan Buddhas. The article states that Taliban couldn`t bring down the structure;so they had to employ ``foreign-pakistani explosive experts`` to do the job.

I thought Mush and company were drum-beating then they were trying harder with Taliban not to destroy the buddhas.

I don`t think a Pakistani explosive expert would have been employed w/o some sort of help from nut-wig corps commander in peshawar.

BTW, the article also points out about Siphah-sahaba as Taliban allies. Aren`t they the ones who killed so many shiates in Karachi and they were also involved in hazara killings.

Read the story. The link.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-000014271feb24.story

dost-mittar #423: I have seen Peter Russel (I think). He is a funny guy. His famous line, I believe, is, ``Someone is a gonna get hurt tonight,`` when he imitates his father.

Canada is known for funny guys and good looking girls. A lot of Playboy models are Canadians (not that I have seen them; just heard about them from people like dost-mittar).

In a sense, Canadians are like Pakistanis, w.r.t. to India. One difference being that Pakistanis do not try to differentiate themselves from Indians. They feel Indians are differentiating themselves from Pakistan. And Pakistanis are a lot less intimated by India, then Canadians are of America.

After all, Canadians did not rule over USA for 800 years, like, ``we`` ruled over, ``you`` guys. :-)

subroto #411 This talking hound dog reminds me vaguely of someone...I cannot put a finger on it, but it reminds me of someone...maybe I know and am afraid to say it...

;-)

While Pakistan is considering honoring Pearl with Nishane-Pakistan, Indians are seriously considering handing over whole of Kashmir after Pearl`s supreme sacrifice for the sake of world peace.

Hariharan #105 Sadna # 97

Beheading is not a fingerprint of Al-Q or Abu Sayaf of Phillipines. It is the hand of cruel Islam and Pakistan in particular. Beheadings in Afghanistan for over five years by T`ban was done right under the nose of Pakistanis.

hariharan#105
``How about the ordinary pakistanis who have to bear the kidnappings, murder, robbery on a daily basis.

Who is going to answer the doctors, other professionals who were brutually murdered besides numerous shia community people murdered by Sipah types.``

Good questions.

soysauce#104
``one hopes it`s only a result of benign confusion and not something worse``

Is it wealth, a safe and cocooned life and hired armed guards?

----
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54824-2002Feb22.html

``...Saeed, the man who has admitted a role in the kidnapping, fought as a militant in Indian Kashmir, police sources said. Pakistani authorities originally said Saeed was arrested on Feb. 12. But at his court appearance, he disclosed that he had turned himself in a week earlier, on Feb. 5. Sources said that Saeed surrendered to Ejaz Shah, the home secretary in Punjab province who, until about 18 months ago, was the ISI chief in Punjab, but that the terrorist was held under wraps by people described only as ``non-police officials.``

Two key suspects currently being sought also served with ISI-backed militant groups in Indian Kashmir, sources said: a man Pearl knew as Imtiaz Siddiqi and whose real name police believe is Mansur Hussain, and Amjad Farooqi. Police recently went to Farooqi`s home to interview him, sources said, and were told by the family that he had been infiltrated into Kashmir just days before. Three
men jailed in connection with Pearl`s abduction also fought as Islamic militants in Kashmir, sources said...``

re:Reply #: 67

ali1,

``the largest gas reserves are in the bellies of 1 billion Indians, once they have eaten their aaloo gobhi for breakfast, chanay ki daal for lunch and gobhi aaloo for dinner``.

That was a good one. By the way, which one produces more gas? Is it aloo or chana? I personally think it is aloo. Have any bright ideas about how this gas can be tapped for human welfare?

Sridhar

re syed ahmed

``by your classification the Mukthi Bahini should have been classified as a TERRORIST organization since it trageted thousands of non-Bengali combatants particularly after in the post surrender period``

No country (save Pakistan) ever classified the Mukti Bahini, the successor Bangladesh Army, or the Government of Bangladesh as terrorit organizations. The militant groups in Kashmir and Israel have been classified as terrorists by every civilized country in the world. I know some of you itch to paint the Mukti Bahini in the same colors as the Hamas, PLO, and Harkatul-whatever it is; wrong premise, wrong analogy, wrong conclusions. Just as the State Department. Such comparisons are desparate attempts at deflecting criticism from those who blow buildings, attack parliaments, kill children, and hijack aircraft, all in the name of the `people` and God. Heck, the Mukti Bahini was actually the defense arm of a democratically elected government of a sovereign Republic.

Sadna

``Danny Pearls death and the innocence of the Paki government is going to be spun like mad by the US and Pakistan just like the death of civilian Afghans and Pakistanis` broadbased support to the Taliban, a side issue glossed over for greater objectives. Its only Indians are going to be bursting blood vessels.``

Right. How the hell can you ``spin`` an on camera beheading? Seems to have its own `axis` and spins itself. Axis... Hmmm.

Be a good little feudal and get off your dead a$$ and DO something - action - rather than the usual paranoid blather and short-sighted political theories.

Sadna #97

It could also be Al-Queida format. Remember, in Phillipines, the Abu-Sayaf group uses beheading as its forte.

I read an article in which a member of the group escaped and explained that there trainers included afghans and syrians.

God knows what the afghans and syrians doing in Phillipines!!

But you are right. The evidence as reported in media points to JeM but JeM also shared office space, overhead with one of the trusts which was involved in ``charity`` work in Afghanisthan. I think many senior military officials were office bearers of the trust which was later put on the US black list.

I saw another piece of reporting where in kabul the NA/US troops found stationary of the trust and most the money flowed thru various banks in Peshawar, Pakistan. They had posted pictures of the bank ``chalan`` or whatever and you could see the bank logo/address, etc.

1) My only worry is what would happen to this Omar dude. Will be neutralized in an ``encounter``?

what does it mean when Musharraf wants ``swift`` justice. Is he sending a signal?

2) For all that we know, this omar may be a small fish in the overall scheme of things, he could be made a scapegoat, neutralized and blamed for all and sundry. In fact, this is what is happening.

They are blaming everything on Omar in the form of confession. This poor omar may not know what is to come soon.

There is a big evil axis between ISI, Al-Queida and oil/drug money. Sometimes you feel kind of sorry for these fundoos; they were the creation of ISI. Why blame the fundoos when whiskey sipping generals are spared?

BTW, Musharraf is promising that everyone involved with Pearl`s murder will be dealt. How about the ordinary pakistanis who have to bear the kidnappings, murder, robbery on a daily basis.

Who is going to answer the doctors, other professionals who were brutually murdered besides numerous shia community people murdered by Sipah types.

A lot of questions. Wonder if Mush will take lie-dedecter test.

#102 Sadhana

I did not know about the beheading of the muslim girl. I suppose, in a perverse way, the jihadis are equal opportunity throat-slitters but they did apparently make Pearl ``confess`` that he was a jew.

Powell is already putting a spin on things. I really don`t care that much what the US decides to do here, i only want indians to realize that Mushy is either a clumsly liar or a diabolical character and i tend to believe the latter. Not good in either case. We have to be very wary of a neighbor who harbors neighborhood thugs and should absolutely refuse to negotiate until they show some neighborliness.

Ayaz Amir disappoints me. He seems to be confusing valor and courage for thuggery. It is this sort of confusion (one hopes it`s only a result of benign confusion and not something worse) that has made ordinary pakis digging into their pockets to finance all sorts of jihadi outfits. Again, as long as this attitude continues, there can be no peace.

Re: sigalph235


re ralph quoting ashraf khan re `pakistani mind`


``But people in Kashmir and Palestine are not terrorists, they are freedom-fighters and they must be treated and revered as such. ``



[Anybody who deliberately targets non-combatants and civillians is a terrorist. The only treatment and reverence that individual ought to receive is that of a wretched common criminal dragged before the courts of civilized justice. It is the depth of depravity to ask a woman, who has just lost her husband to cold blooded murderers, to campaign on behalf of the PLO. Give me a break! Thankfully, the vast majority of Pakistanis are human beings, in contrast to this Ashraf Khan(letter writer) guy.]...

History is ironic - Is it not ,... by your classification the Mukthi Bahini should have been classified as a TERRORIST organization since it trageted thousands of non-Bengali combatants particularly after in the post surrender period... Some of thos people later became Generals in the Bangladeshi army and successful politicians.... Certainly one can argue ...terror was used as a weapon by the Bangladeshis is acheiving freedom.... ( this i s no way excuses the brutality of th ePakistany Army) ... but nonethless .... Bangladesh reveres the very terrorist as freedom fighters...

soysauce #100
I think Rupin Katyal was murdered in front of some passengers, but thank God not his wife. She didnot know until after the passengers were released that he had been murdered. btw, last week a Kashmiri MUSLIM girl was beheaded by mujahiddeen, the second such in the last month, did you know?

The US is only interested in covering up for Musharraf, not in connecting dots about HuM and dead nonAmericans. I will bet not a single US newspaper will even raise the question of what was Omar Shiekh doing unannounced in Paki custody from Feb 5th to Feb 13th without the world being told about it. I will bet the world media will willingly print the accusations which will be made by Musharraf and his ministers that actually India was behind it all to defame Pakistan, and this vast majority of humane Pakistanis will happily parrot the lies right back.

Here is one humane Pakistani for you, he is saying exactly what Omar Sheikh has been saying:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
``Our main problem has never been Kashmir, Afghanistan, too much religion or even a lack of money. It has been a want of spirit and national dignity``

``Even as we adjust to the new circumstances let us honour and not revile those who were true to their beliefs and put their lives at stake for the freedom of Kashmir. They did not invent violence there. They reacted to Indian oppression. What would we have had them do? It is easy saying Kashmir runs in our blood, as most of us are wont to do. It is harder laying our lives on the line.``


Danny Pearls death and the innocence of the Paki government is going to be spun like mad by the US and Pakistan just like the death of civilian Afghans and Pakistanis` broadbased support to the Taliban, a side issue glossed over for greater objectives. Its only Indians are going to be bursting blood vessels.

ALL#

All who are interested following

is the link to the Israeli reservists

website who refused to fight beyond the 1967

borders

www.seruv.org

#95 Sadhana

Daniel Pearl, the jew & Rubin Katyal, the hindu were killed like sacrifical goats, with their throats slashed. Katyal was murdered in front of his newly-wed wife and the other passengers of the plane and the Jew`s killing was recorded for everyone to see. The kafir hindu`s murder was nothing and the murderers were (probably trained &) sheltered. The jew`s murder at least will, hopefully, make everyone (but Powell) realize what a backstabbing, double-dealing monster the product of TNT has become...

re rsaxena and arjun

Our pal YLH may actually be on to something. Remember when we all ha ha`d his prediction about joint electorates? Heck, if Pervez Musharraf can have an absolute (or ABSOLUT!) secular polity while calling it `Islamic`, who cares? Let the Pakistani mullahs save face (and nothing else). Remember, even today, Turkey`s constitution states Islam as its state religion(at Ataturk`s insistence). You gotta give the s.o.bs something so keep `em quiet. If that something is denying the word `secular`, oh well. One step at a time my friends.

Axis of Evil is really
Al Qaeda, ISI/Taliban, and the Pakistani state.
Togehter they are known as ``Allah KidaaN ?``

Har Balaa sar pe aa jaaye lekin
Allah waaloN se Allah bachaaye

Pearl`s murder technique proves Jaish link

http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1760610 SIDDHARTH SRIVASTAVA



NEW DELHI: The brutal way in which WSJ journalist Daniel Pearl was murdered is a clear indication of the involvement of the terrorist group Jaish-e-Mohammed, which is headed by Masood Azhar and Omar Sheikh, say senior security officials with the Intelligence Bureau.

Pearl`s throat was slit from behind by his abductors and, going by media reports, he was subsequently beheaded.

This is similar to the manner which 27-year-old Norwegian Hans Ostro was beheaded by Al Faran terrorists in July 1995 and the way Rupen Katyal, one of the passengers in the hijacked Indian Airlines aircraft IC 814 was killed in December 1999.

That the Al Faran was a front of the Jaish-which, at that time, was called the Harkat-ul-Ansar-was confirmed when the kidnappers demanded the release of Azhar, who was incarcerated in an Indian jail at that time.

The Al Faran had kidnapped Ostro in Pahalgam, Jammu & Kashmir, along with five other foreigners.

The Narasimha Rao government in 1995 did not give in to the demands of the hijackers. Ostro`s body was subsequently found beheaded with `Al Faran` engraved on his body.

The hijackers of IC 814 too demanded the release of Azhar, and this time, the Atal Behari Vajpayee government gave in due to the pressure exerted by the families of the hostages. During the course of the hijack, Katyal`s throat too was slit from behind and he bled to death.

According to officials, the similarity in the killing of Pearl, Ostro and Katyal indicates that the terrorists have been trained in a similar manner and, therefore, belong to the same outfit.

``One of the six foreigners kidnapped by the Al Faran in 1995, an American John Childs who managed to escape from captivity said that the terrorists used psychological torture against them. One of the means was slitting the throat of a sheep in front of the hostages,`` says an official.

Similaties have already been drawn between an earlier kidnapping of four foreign citizens in India and Pearl`s abduction. Sheikh is the prime suspect in the abduction.

The pictures of Pearl that were earlier released to the media had shown him handcuffed with newspaper cuttings in the background.

This was similar to the pictures of hostages that were released by Sheikh in India. Sheikh too had demanded the release of Azhar. The four hostages, however were lucky to be rescued after a shoot-out with the security forces.

Happy Jihad to all you terrorists....you guys got the $300 million ransom and killed the guy too.
Classic proverbial Pakistani double speak followed by proverbial Pakistani double cross, double agent, double double.... everything double ONLY one truth Allah O Akbar !!

Now all Kafirs, Journalists and members of the free world can ONLY say

Har balaa sar pe aa jaaye lekin
Allah waaloN se AllaH Bachaayee.....

sigalph235 #93
Daniel Pearl is dead because of the shameless lies of Musharraf and the Pakistani government to cover the tracks of hijackers, kidnappers and murderers just to poke a finger in India`s eye.

Daniel Pearl is dead because HuM was allowed to operate from its bases in Pakistan in India Pakistan and Afghanistan without any restraint by the Pakistani authorities for the last 7-8 years and because the US government which has absolutely no principle didnot declare JeM a terrorist organisation until last Dec. INSPITE of its ties with Al Qaeda.

The so-called humanity vast majority of Pakistanis who is playing along with these charades were worth less than nothing to Daniel Pearl, Rupin Katyal, and the beheaded Norweigian touritst. The vast majority of Pakistanis are worth less than nothing to Marianne Pearl or future and past American, Kashmiri, Indian and Pakistani victims.

re: arjun #91

...good one...go easy on this dude...else he`ll bombard this board with 586 long posts about jinnah and pakistani secularism and blah blah blah....keep in mind, it doesn`t if mooshraf says there will be no secular state...what ylh says will happen in pakistn....

re ralph quoting ashraf khan re `pakistani mind`

``But people in Kashmir and Palestine are not terrorists, they are freedom-fighters and they must be treated and revered as such. ``

Anybody who deliberately targets non-combatants and civillians is a terrorist. The only treatment and reverence that individual ought to receive is that of a wretched common criminal dragged before the courts of civilized justice. It is the depth of depravity to ask a woman, who has just lost her husband to cold blooded murderers, to campaign on behalf of the PLO. Give me a break! Thankfully, the vast majority of Pakistanis are human beings, in contrast to this Ashraf Khan(letter writer) guy.

Egyptians didn`t get an inch from ISrael by violence, Kashmiris won`t get an inch from India by the gun and the PLO won`t get a state with its new found missiles. Democracies appear weak but can hardly be bullied into departure by terror.

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soysauce #82 nasah

After the news on NPR of the reservists refusing

to serve beyond the 1967 borders ,

NPR that day re-aired atleast three to five

shows on the holocost.

Did you notice that?

Can anyone comment on whether this guy Brigadier Amanullah is indeed expressing the views of a significant section of Pakistani `decisionmakers`?

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/03/landesman.htm

#82 nasah

Hasanji, the saner elements within israel are starting to speak out. Just the other day, i heard on NPR that the wisdom of staking peace and prosperity for israel on the settlements is beginning to be questioned. Israel is hitting out hard, almost unthinkingly. Let`s see where this goes.

For Sharon Beirut in reverse?

Nerves on Edge, Israelis Rattled By Widening War

Nation Hunkers Down As Army Enters Gaza City

By Lee Hockstader

(Excerpts)



TERMIT OUTPOST, Gaza Strip

After nearly 17 months of fighting, the Israeli troops at Termit are a microcosm of Israel -- jumpy, hunkered down and under intensifying attacks by Palestinians with rifles, mortars, suicide bombs and, lately, rockets. In their foes` growing tactical prowess, improving weaponry and battlefield daring, many Israelis have a sense of reliving their grinding, two-decade war in Lebanon -- only this time much closer to home and with many more casualties.

Early this morning, Israel again escalated its fight with the Palestinians, sending tanks and ground troops into the largest Palestinian population center, Gaza City, 20 miles north of here.

Militants used loudspeakers to call on armed residents to turn out to confront the Israelis, according to reports from the scene.

Israel`s armed forces are dealing out progressively stronger blows, but at the same time the country`s peace movement, muted and outflanked by hard-liners for more than a year, is resurgent. It is pushing for a withdrawal from most of the West Bank and Gaza territories Israel has occupied since 1967.

Its new slogan: ``Get out of the territories. Get back to ourselves.``

A group of several hundred Israeli army reserve generals, colonels and high-ranking veterans of the Mossad and Shin Bet security services is pushing a similar message, arguing for an immediate, unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and large chunks of the West Bank.

More than 260 Israeli army reservists -- mostly sergeants and junior officers in combat units -- have publicly refused to serve again in the Palestinian territories. The list grows by a half-dozen or so names every day.

Three-quarters of the more than 1,100 people killed since September 2000 have been Palestinian. Many Palestinians say their side can continue to sustain such losses, but among Israelis all factions agree that the Israeli death toll is utterly unacceptable, and recognize that this is a crucial vulnerability.

``The Palestinians have neither the ability nor the weapons to defeat the Israeli army on the battlefield,`` Israel`s best-selling daily newspaper, Yedioth Aharonoth, said today.

``But by means of vicious terror, human bombs, car bombs, roadside bombs, indiscriminate gunfire, rockets and mortar shells that are geared to kill Jews for the sake of killing Jews, they are trying to turn terror and murder into a war of attrition.``



Increasingly, Israelis are comparing their dilemma to what they faced in Lebanon, which Israel quit in 2000 after two decades of occupation that cost it hundreds of lives and still scars the national psyche. In many Israelis` view, Lebanon was their country`s Vietnam, a quagmire that devoured men and resources, sapped the nation`s morale, divided its people and undercut its reputation for toughness in the Middle East.

The parallel with Lebanon is inexact. But Israelis see an essential similarity: the impossibility of military victory. In a recent poll by Tel Aviv University, 70 percent of Israelis said they were certain that fighting with the Palestinians would continue in the coming years, despite their armed forces` almost daily strikes.

``Israelis were always `stuck in the mud of Lebanon` -- that`s the expression people used,`` said Galia Golan, a veteran Israeli peace campaigner. ``And there is this sense again that we`re stuck in the mud in the Palestinian territories . . . that this violence has no end`` unless Israel withdraws.

The growing Israeli despair has been fueled not only by suicide bombings but by the Palestinians` growing prowess as guerrilla fighters. Several recent attacks have shocked Israelis and elicited comparisons with the Shiite Muslim fighters of Hezbollah -- highly disciplined guerrillas who, with arms and other support from Iran and Syria, fought the Israeli army to a stalemate in Lebanon.

On a rain-swept night last month, a pair of Palestinian guerrillas cut through the fence from the Gaza Strip, clambered up the sand-and-mud walls of a lonely Israeli army outpost and killed four soldiers.

Last week, Palestinian gunmen ambushed an Israeli bus in the Gaza Strip, lured one of Israel`s supposedly indestructible flagship battle tanks to the fray, then blew it up with a huge mine, incinerating three soldiers inside.

On Monday, a Palestinian gunman attacked an Israeli convoy in the Gaza Strip, killing an Israeli settler and two soldiers.

``These guys are fanatic and determined,`` said a 30-year-old Israeli sniper at Termit, a veteran of Lebanon and a staff sergeant who asked not to be identified. ``It`s like if you blink, you get it, even if you`re unprepared for a second.``

From Lebanon, Hezbollah has functioned as the Palestinian uprising`s main cheerleader. It has also said it is providing moral and material support for the leading radical Palestinian groups attacking the Israelis, Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Resistance Movement, known as Hamas.

``They are now operating against the Israeli occupation with Hezbollah methods -- deadly bombs, rocket fire, ambushes against soldiers,`` Hezbollah`s leader, Said Hasan Nasrallah, said in a recent speech.

Israeli officials are determined to squash comparisons to Lebanon, insisting that the West Bank, in particular, is far more critical to the Jewish state`s security than Lebanon ever was -- not least because 200,000 Israeli settlers live there -- and therefore will be defended more vigorously.

They also say that the Palestinians lack Hezbollah`s resources, discipline, technical savvy and Iranian weapon supply.

Nonetheless, officials acknowledge that the despair gripping many Israelis today resembles that of the 1990s when Israel was enmeshed in Lebanon. Israeli officials contend that the more important issue is that the Palestinians have been encouraged by the deepening fissures in Israeli society.

``Lebanon is not the West Bank and the West Bank is not Lebanon,`` a senior Israeli security source said.

But Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, the source asserted, ``wants to increase the number of attacks to widen the cracks in Israeli society.``

Another high-ranking military official acknowledged: ``They`re hurting us.``

But the official added: ``Are we going to leave [the Palestinian territories] because of the roadside bombs? No way.``(WP)

Yes you are -- because it IS Palestiniann territory.

``scoth drinking leader of the islamic republic of pakiland has ruled out a secular state?``

Well I don`t believe a word he says to the Mullahs. His hero Kemal Ataturk once told the Mullahs `I will die for Khilafat`.

In any event, I have repeatedly said that I don`t have a problem with an `Islamic` Republic, so long as the Mullahs are kept away from Governance, and Minorities get equal rights including the right to hold the highest office in the land. Musharraf seems to be heading that way. If Pakistan ensures all that ... I don`t care if they call it Sultanate Mughalia Pakistan let alone the Islamic Republic.

As said before the word `secular` has been degraded in Pakistan by people like Maudoodi so much so that educated people like Romair are victims of the propaganda too... they equate `secularism` with westernization.. so when Musharraf rules out a `secular` state he rules out the proliferation of Alcohol and night clubs... which I can care less about.

Whats in a word anyway?

Read Imran Khan`s Tehreek e Insaaf, which is full of references to Islam, but in the end it guarantees all the essentialities of a Secular State.

#78

Good catch semi! The number for Azerbaijan seems too low. Anyway here`s another document fromt the same site which perhaps gives a more accurate picture:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspgrph.html

Ref wajihak #: 51

[.....I belive the true axes of evil is MR BUSH, SHARON, AND VAJPAYEE...... what do you guys think about it??????/.]

Why don`t you just say the axis of evil is Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism? That is what I think you are getting at.

[imagine ifwe did`nt have these three people or these 3 ideolgys world would be a much better place if not the best......]

Yes. Without these three idologies, you would be free to keep your women illiterate, pregnant and inside a burqa, you could be reciting the Koran while simultaneously eating halwa-puri and scratching your balls, and spend your time religiously fcuking your 4 or 14 wives.

``Perhaps in the future the cost of very deep drilling or other imperatives may be such the Arabian sea will become a more attractive proposition.``

Offshore Angola is today the cutting edge of deep-water drilling and production. But then it is justified because the reserves are simply gigantic (in the range of billion barrrels recoverable)

Ref Urstruly #: 50

[Asif # 35

You are absolutely correct. Even Huntigton has written in his thesis that Democracy in Islamic countries favours Islamists.]

Reduced to stark simplicity, it is Jinnah versus Allah. Whether the thrilla is held in Manila or elsewhere, we know that this time the gorilla is gonna win. The crowd is going, ``Allah, bumiye! Allah, bumiye!``

re: bong dongs

{{ Geological potential (if it exists) is very different than proven reserves. }}

...which is very different from productive capacity, which takes into account prices and cost of developing the reserve...

This is how a Pakistani mind works

Children of Kashmir and Palestine

We have read with pain and anguish the appeal by Ms Mariane Pearl, (Feb 16) for the release of her husband. The people of Pakistan, one and all, sympathize with her and pray or her and the longevity of her husband. She has appealed for the sake of her unborn son, as she is six months pregnant now. Our hearts go out to her.

At the same time, the Muslims all over the world shed silent tears over the fate of hundreds and thousands of unborn children in Kashmir and Palestine. Their expectant mothers live in horror waiting for the return of their husbands who in most cases do not return.

While we pray for the father of the unborn child Deniel Junior, we would suggest to his mother to use her influence with the members of the fourth estate to pressurize the world powers to feel and act for those children also who die in the streets of Palestine and Kashmir and the youths who are being killed by the bullets of Israel and India.

Terrorism is a detestable act and must be condemned. But people in Kashmir and Palestine are not terrorists, they are freedom-fighters and they must be treated and revered as such. If justice can be brought to the door of East Timorians, it can also be brought to the doors of Kashmiris and Palestinians.

We hope that Mrs Pearl will also move to put her weight on the side of children born and unborn in Kashmir and Palestine.

ALI ASHRAF KHAN

Karachi

http://www.dawn.com/2002/02/21/letted.htm

The real Axis of Evil

China, Pakistan, North Korea

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/21/international/asia/21MISS.html

bong_dongs # 55

...what`s up with the figures for the central asian states?...

Bong Dongs, Romair

I take your point on potential and reseves - lets see what will happen. Perhaps in the future the cost of very deep drilling or other imperatives may be such the Arabian sea will become a more attractive proposition.

A site you both may enjoy is www.turkmenistannews.net

It will give you insight into why Iran has made it into the ``axis of evil`` - and exactly Mr. Musharraf is referring to when he sites Pakistan`s geostrategic location.

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ADDRESSED TO ALL#

Did the author ever mention the word `Islam`

in the entire Article. Didn`t he mention Iraq is

a ``PLURAL`` society. offcourse that doesn`t

mean Naqashbandi Saab should stop entertaining

us!

hobbyty

Geological potential (if it exists) is very different than proven reserves. If you are interested you may check the NELP2 data.

The biggest enemy of Islam is “militant Islam” itself, as practiced and preached by the mainstream jahil ullema and mullah-backed-politicians of our times. This heavily politicized, fanatic, inhumane version of Islam is the driving force behind the turmoil and divisions within the Muslim world. Muslims are kidding themselves by blaming their problems on Christian or Jewish conspiracies or evil designs of the western nations.

While there probably exist designs by western nations to gain an upper hand on the “Muslim nations”, for economic, ideological, and political reasons, these issues are a distant second. The main issues are lack of unity, mullahsim, and corruption within the “Muslim nations”.

Unless Muslim nations sort out this mess first and truly strive to serving the mankind, no change in their condition can be brought about … they will forever be stuck in the bottom of the social order across the world and will continue to be a nuisance.

The devil is within … and not somewhere out there.

Asad

Bong Dong, Ali1 - Asif Naqshbandi

Dong

Let time show if I am wrong about the reserves under the Arabian sea - if you are interested you may want to investigate the activities of a certain oil company that is headquartered in bermuda and whose chairman also served as chariman of Oman Oil company and you may also want to investigate that a former President of India, while in office was a strong salesman for the proposal of this company.

Dear Mr. Naqshbandi

I wish to be understood by you and in that vein, I offer you my point of view, for consideration:

If a quam is Islami or Islamic - can it exist in a secular polity? it is like as if one will lose one`s faith if surrounded by the faithless? if one does his one`s faith, can it said that one was ever ``faithful``?

If a quam is truly ``faithful``, it governance cannot but be marked by that faithfulness. One cannot force others or coerse anyone into ``faithfulness`` - only by the love of God and one`s understanding of Love for God can one strengthen one`s faith - Muslims greater challenge to be ``faithful`` - not politically powerful or dominant. Where we are a majority, if we are truly ``faithful``, where we are ``just`` towards one another, will it not be reflected in the way we govern ourselves and others? Are not Tolerance of others, acceptance of others, of differeing sects and religions, Islamic? No, I don`t say that what they offer is the ``truth`` - just as what they offer is not ``truth`` to us, what we offer may not be ``truth`` to them. Similarly, where we are ``unfaithful``, ``unjust`` towards one another, will it not reflect in how we govern ourselves?. Mohammed Iqbal Lahori, Allahmah, said clearly the values of pluralism and tolerance, of the temporal and the eternal are the essence of Islam:

``Islam demands loyalty to God, not to thrones...`` Political islam therefore is a temporary phenomenon, to deal with temporary crisis - not a system of governance.

``The ultimate spiritual basis of all life, as concieved by Islam is eternal and reveals itself in VARIETY and CHANGE (my note: Temporal and plural). A society based on such a conception of REALITY must reconcile, in it`s life, the categories of PERMANENCE and CHANGE (my note: Eternal and Temporal).

Perhaps what is mean by the ``secularizing`` mission of religions is the call to a religiosity, a faithfulness, even under circumstances surrounded by disbelief and faithlessness. What greater sign of deliverance, of salvation, that is God`s love, His Mercy, His compassion, His forgiveness, for his creature.

Romair,

If by `secular` fanatics, you mean me, then sadly I must say, you haven`t read a word of what I have said. I think I have defined secularism much differently from your equation of secularism with

immorality and bigotry.. and what is more I showed you exactly how that is the meaning webster`s dictionary takes.

Sadly people like you won`t stop taking shots at me, when we should be the allies. You and I want the same thing... but we have different names for it.

YLH

I urge you, please do not take the kind of language you have used against Mr. Naqshbandi to be a substitute for argument. Not only those who value you but those who wish to discuss with you as grown men, will be put off by such language. Imagine, women on Chowk, what must they think by the use of such language. We are of course free, but restraint is a mark of our character. Please reconsider.

Asif #54 ``So the sooner we Muslims return to the teachings and practise of Islam as exemplified by the Sacred Shariah the better it will be for us. ``

So there we have it. You now conveniently drop even a mention of the Quran, and the words of the men you worship have replaced the words of God. You worship Caliphs, the true muslim worships only God. Your antiQuranic views having been exposed by your own posts as pointed out by me on the other board.

You will spend your life of hypocrisy railing against the West after having lined up for a visa to enter the UK. Others of your kind will spend their lives hunted by the law in this world. The rest of the world, people of all faiths including Islam, will do things for which God created man, as the Quran tells us. You and your kind will one day answer for the evil and mischief you seek to spread in this world, and that day it will be too late for you.

Asif Naqshbandi: Your logic is somewhat misplaced. It is as misplaced as the logic of some of the secular fanatics I have been interacting with recently. Both of you seem to want to equate goodness and righteousness with concepts, which in and of themselves have nothing to do with goodness and righteousness. In your case, it is Shariah. And it the case of the secularatics, it is secularism.

Shariah is not a necessity for Pakistan. I, for one, hope it never gets implmented in Pakistan. I would certainly oppose it tooth and nail. The day Shariah is imposed in Pakistan, is the day the death of Pakistan will start. Similarly, the day forced secularism in imposed in Pakistan, is the day the death of Pakistan will start. Take a look at Muslim societies of Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Iran (under Shah and Khomeini) to get good examples of societies which are in extreme social conflicts due to the implementations of Shariah or forced secularism.

I am not quite sure what kind of leadership will result in being the social, ``saviors`` of Pakistan. But I am quite sure what kind of leaderships will result in the social destruction of Pakistan: the Ataturks and the Amir-ul-Momineens. They are nothing but a sign of Pakistani inferiority complexes. So lets keep Turkey and Saudi out of Pakistan, and out of the future of Pakistan. Both these groups have always been at the fringes of the Pakistani society, and need to be kept there, where they can remain busy fighting each other, and away from the Pakistani society. They have their own misconstrued definitions of democracy, equality etc., and for some reason assume everyone should follow it.

Neither theocracy nor secularism, in my opinion, will work in Pakistan. That is why Jinnah, who had his hand on the pulse of Pakistan, in my opinion, stated that Pakistan should not be a theocratic state (i.e. not a state with unelected guys with long beards and little wordly knowledge telling everyone what to do). That is also why, in my opinion, he never stated that Pakistan should be a secular state either (i.e. not a state with Turks telling overwhelmingly poor uneducated people, with whom they have nothing in common, the virtues of moving religion completely out of their public life, just because that works well in Paris and Chicago).

The majority of the people of Pakistan do not want either. And if our secularitics and Shariahitics would stop apeing the west and middle east, and do some original thinking, they would realize that theocracy and secularism are not the only two options left in the world. These are infact the two extremes, which may work in certain countries, but have been failiures in other countries (Shariah specifically will not work anywhere, until the Muslims have high education rate, and indulge in some serious ijtehad; Shariah needs to be put on the backburner, until that day arrives).

Pakistanis want something in between. For some strange reason, our secularitics point to the lack of success of the religious parties, and automatically assume that Pakistanis want secularism. And for some strange reason, the Shariahatics look at the popularity of Islam in Pakistan, and assume that Pakistanis want Shariah.

If Prophet Muhammad could come down and implement his understanding of Shariah in Pakistan, I would follow it. Otherwise, every Muslim has a different interpretation of Shariah. Should we follow your version, my version, or the version of some of our secularatic colleagues? Whichever version is followed, there will be a lot of angry Muslims opposing it. Anytime a fixed non-changeable (or extremely difficult to change, without force) set of rules (like Shariah) is implemented in a society, it locks the society into a time trap, since the interpretations of those rules is done by a specific group of people (without any input from the whole society, since the society itself is divided over an exact definition of Shariah) Also, the ulema interpreters are not elected, but selected. Why should I allow Qazi Hussein or someone in Al-Aqsa to decide how I should practice my religion? Are the ulema better or more knowledgeable Muslims than I am? Will they be willing to follow my interpretation of Shariah?

As far as the rest of the Muslim world is concerned, it is about time Pakistanis got out of our Ummah thought process. The Ummah gives two hoots about Pakistan. The Indian Army (many times larger than any Army any other Muslim country is facing) is parked a hundred meters from the Pakistani border, and the Ummah has done nothing. So lets leave the Ummah out, and just think about Pakistan. If the Ummah wants Shariah or secularism, good for them. As our favorite Muhajir Commando stated, ``Pakistan comes first, everything else is secondary.``

Reply # 55 bong_dongs

[hobbyty,

``The largest reserves of gas are not in CA or ME, but under the Arabian sea ``]

Like I stated earlier, the largest gas reserves are in the bellies of 1 billion Indians, once they have eaten their aaloo gobhi for breakfast, chanay ki daal for lunch and gobhi aaloo for dinner.

Naqashbandi # 53

[``Unlike what Musharraf says our loyalties lie with Islam first THEN with Pakistan (or any other country)... As Iqbal said our identity is because of ISLAM...qawm (Islami) millat se hai...``]

Naqashbandi bhai sahab,

I beg to differ. Islam is a great religion with one and a quarter billion followers and will survive and prosper with or without Pakistan. But Pakistanis will be gucked without Pakistan.

If you have any doubts, just look at the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of the ummah.... those who have lived in Saudi for 50+ years live on resident visas stamped on Egyptian ``travelling documents``; no Gulf country gives them even a visit visa; they travel from Cairo to Gaza under armed escort... etc. etc.

I dont see anything wrong with Musharraf`s Pakistan first slogan. You can imagine how the ``Ummah`` will treat the miskeen Bakistanis in case there is no Bakistan!

Wajiha K,

First learn to spell axis. Thankyou.

Sigalph

Sir, you deserve all the credit for being an impartial individual with a balanced praise for all that is Good. Bangladesh and indeed Pakistan can go a long way, if we had more like you in our ranks.

Parting Blow for the shameless Naqshbandi : Can there be a better endorsement?

His death has come as the greatest blow to the Muslim world. He was the foremost figure in the Muslim East. In Iran and Afghanistan, in Egypt and of course in Turkey, he demonstrated to the consternation of the rest of the world that Muslim Nations were coming into their own. In Kemal Ataturk the Islamic world has lost a great hero. With the example of this great man in front of them as an inspiration, will the Muslims of India still remain in quagmire? (Jinnah 1938: Presidential address to League Convention, 1) Muslim league Documents, 2) Writings and statements of M.A.Jinnah 3) Quaid e Azam Papers)

PS: I find it shameless that Naqshbandi choot loves to quote Iqbal when Iqbal himself abhorred all Ulema and all Sufis, and was an ardent admirer of Kemal Ataturk as is obvious from Iqbal`s reconstruction of religious thoght in Islam. In Iqbal`s Islam and Iqbal`s Pakistan there is no room for Bigots like Naqshbandi and their distorted version of Islam.

There is hope yet for that Kind of Pakistan. My faith in Imran Khan and his party has been rekindled so to speak:

Manifesto of the Tehreek-e-Insaaf

http://www.insaf.org.pk/manifesto.htm

Hez got my vote.

Long Live Pakistan

Long Live Democracy

Long Live Iqbalian Islam

Down with Naqshbandi and his kind.

Harimau,

tsk .. tsk .... sigh.

I rest my case.



Dear Muslim Brothers and sisters,

Kindly examine the following statement,

``YLH- we know that kemal ataput was a zindeeq and a murtad [apostate] and out of Islam; he was declared as such by all the ulama of shuyukh. therefore he is going to go where all apostates/kaafirs go--to hell.``

I believe in Islam, and this is based on my own understanding of it the decision of who is going to heaven or hell is the domain solely of the God Almighty. Don`t you think the above mentioned statement qualifies our own great Naqshbandi Sufi to be a `Mushrik` or someone who associates himself with God?

By the way, Naqshbani Choot, please explain did the Ulema and Mashaikh declare this before or after they accorded Kemal Ataturk with the title of `Ghazi` or the `victorious in faith`, and was it before or after they gave him the title of `Saif ul Islam` or the `sword of Islam`. Pray tell for the sake of my pathetic little knowledge that did this `fatwa` of the all knowing and almighty Ulema come before or after Allama Iqbal wrote Muslims of East Africa: `Muslims should pray for the health of Mustapha Kemal Pasha and Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah for they still need them`.

See I am a little confused. Are the great ulema and Mashaikh-e-karaam so `fickle`? Or is it that they are just `dukandars` selling religion as opium in their divine `dukans`?

The Ulema and Mashaikhs are the curse of Islam. Islam was never meant to have a clergy. Islam will not and cannot sustain this high assembley of Priests. All Ulema and Mashaikh e Karaam should be shot dead for their crimes against the Muslim Ummah. They have opposed everything progressive for Muslims from Turkish War of Independence to the Pakistan National Movement. Their track record is heinous. They have called our most brilliant leaders like Kemal Ataturk and Jinnah, `Murtid` and `Kafir e Azam`. Their end will liberate Islam from a curse which is as alien to the very spirit of Islam as idolatory or even more so , for Islam asks us to protect the worship places of any kind but Islam does not tolerate a clergy in its very heart.

re harimau 56

That was a good one :)

re asif n 54

Have some shame and humility: don`t claim what YOU believe to be the same as `what Allah has told us`. YOU are NOT the good Lord`s viceregent. Neither are your shuyakh and ulema. In case you did not know, Islam does not allow for a prieshood that interprets God`s word. That is a very Roman Catholic concept that you guys, in your lust to rule over feeble minds, have expropriated nicely. Who`s the apostate and nasara now?

re asif n 53

Dude, don`t tell me my duty. I have two homelands and I`d rather see the world and all its religions go to kingdom con before I condone any harm to the US or Bangladesh.

You despise the great Ataturk because he put your kind in its place. You fear him because his legacy inspires many others to manfully confront the depositsm that flows unabated in the name of religion. If you think that we will go back willingly to the 7th century deser culture, think again.

Oh how I wish there were a few more Ataturks to keep you folks in check.

The shrub has finally met his match!

According to Warren Olney (To The Point/NPR), in response to the axis-of-evil speech, the North Korean Radio described GW as an `ignorant political hooligan!` Let the sparks fly!

Methinks Bush has been mollycoddled too much. Time to take off the gloves...

re ali1 # 47

So I take it that in your madrassa, `patriot` is also defined as `uncle Tom`?

re ylh 48

Thank you for your very kind words, though I doubt I deserve them entirely.

Ref ali1 #: 47

[ylh # 30

[Therefore I need allies like Sigalph and Aisha Sarwari... if only there were more on this planet like them.]

Aisha I can understand, but why do you need Uncle Tom as your ally?]

Well, there is a need for at least ONE member for the quorum of meetings of the Jinnah Adoration and Admiration Society, of which Yasser is the President and Aisha Sarwari is the Vice President.

hobbyty,

``The largest reserves of gas are not in CA or ME, but under the Arabian sea ``

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table81.html

dude, have you no shame? atleast make the slightest effort to check your facts before you open your yap.

hobbytv--I disagree with your last point: the West (ie. Judaeo-Christian world) has always been opposed to Islam right from its inception what with the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Great Games of the 19th century, the dismantling of the great Uthmani Caliphate, the colonisation and partition of our lands, the creation of the illegimitate `state` of Israel, the Gulf War, Bosnian genocide (aided and abbetted by Britain), Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan (twice) and the current so-called ``War on Terrorism`` etc. not to even mention all the killings of Muslims in the former USSR and the intellectual polemical attacks on Islam and vilification of it which continues till this day via the media...and it will continue until Qiyamat.

Because ALLAH Almighty has already TOLD us that the yehud and the nasaara will never be pleased with us UNTIL we become just like them and that they are NOT our friends but only friends and allies of one another; so when what Allah has already told us (and it has been explained in more detail by our beloved, infallible, Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) why should we be surprised about it? We are not surprised!

Indeed it is a good rule of thumb that if you are a Muslim ruler and the West likes you, you are not good for Islam and the Muslims and if you are good for Islam and the Muslims they won`t like you. History is again a perfect example. All the greatest Muslim rulers are called ``despots`` and ``fanatics`` by the Orientalists (eg Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi, Hazrat Aurangzeb Alamgeer, Tipu Sultan, Sultan Mehmed al Fatih, Sultan Suleyman etc.) and heretics like Akbar and Kemal Ataput are considered as great men! Even our Perfect and Beloved Messenger Sayyidina Rasul Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam`s blessed being has been attacked viciously by the Jews and Christians and this attack continues to this day although now the aspertions are cast more slyly and subtley. Astaghfirullah.

So the sooner we Muslims return to the teachings and practise of Islam as exemplified by the Sacred Shariah the better it will be for us. For Allah has promised us victory but made it conditional on us being MU`MINS. i.e. practising Muslims who have gone completely into the Deen and internalised it!

YLH- we know that kemal ataput was a zindeeq and a murtad [apostate] and out of Islam; he was declared as such by all the ulama of shuyukh. therefore he is going to go where all apostates/kaafirs go--to hell. insha Allah. Just read Allah`s Qur`an and the hadith sharif.

* * * * * * *

btw you started the insults by saying I was ```bhonk``-ing without having read the article`.

if it is any consolation to you i hate ataturk with a passion and all like him. he ruined the history of islam.

* * * * *

sigalph---love for one`s watan is a part of islam-you are right. but it doesn`t and shouldn`t over-ride one`s love of Islam itself--especially when that watan is a part of dar al harb and is openly at war with your Muslim brothers and sisters. then your duty--as always--and your loyalty is to islam FIRST. so don`t quote hadith sharif out of context. i`m not a wahabi who wants destruction of ``everything western`` but when i see an attack on Islam--no matter what it is called--I pick Islam.

* * * * * *

Urstruly--yes the kafirs know that given a free and open choice of which type of government they would like most muslims would pick an islamic one. insha Allah the khilafat is going to return soon...

* * * * * * * *

Unlike what Musharraf says our loyalties lie with Islam first THEN with Pakistan (or any other country)... As Iqbal said our identity is because of ISLAM...qawm (Islami) millat se hai...

* * * * *

He is trying to make pakistan into another turkey; insha Allah he will not succeed.

* * * * * * *

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

look my brothers , and sisters and frineds and foes, I think i have a new and true version of the axes of evil, disagree with me if you think i am worng.....for me as a humanist and as a person who loves freedom for my self and for others .....I belive the true axes of evil is MR BUSH, SHARON, AND VAJPAYEE...... what do you guys think about it??????/.

imagine ifwe did`nt have these three people or these 3 ideolgys world would be a much better place if not the best......

Asif # 35

You are absolutely correct. Even Huntigton has written in his thesis that Democracy in Islamic countries favours Islamists.

``I dont care how enlightened or unenlightened your views are, and I dont care how immature or mature you are: you have no right to use such language on chowk.``

I don`t care what misconceptions of greatness or

`un`greatness you have yourself, you don`t have the right to proclaim anything.

Asif Naqshbandi:

``YLH--insha Allah tum ussee jaggah jaogay jahan tumhara Ataput hai...``

Thankyou, Inshallah, yes I will go whereever God will decide where I will go after this life is over . I am sure God knows a little better than you where he went. Don`t you think? Or are you the harbinger of divine revelation as well? Habib-e- Allah perhaps to know where Kemal Ataturk is .. heaven or hell?



Tahmed,

If `bhonkna` is an insult so is `Ghulam` which is where my contention with Asif Naqshbandi starts. I was not the first one to curse him out. Like always, my insults are retaliatory, though usually 10 times as harsh.



Ali1

Sigalph has shown himself to be the most balanced and sophisticated chowkie that I know off along with Patrick.

ylh # 30

[Therefore I need allies like Sigalph and Aisha Sarwari... if only there were more on this planet like them.]

Aisha I can understand, but why do you need Uncle Tom as your ally?

Romair

Yes, I agree that Israeli interests are served by a section of American policy - but it`s not the entirety of American policy. You are of course 100% correct that the interests of Americans and Muslims are pretty much the same and are compelling. This is understood in policy making section in America, I think.

But I think it`s not fair to think that Arabs or Muslims have only the role of victim to play. If Israeli interests are served by their lobby and co-religionists here - what prevents Arabs and Muslims for effecting the same or greater measure of influence?

The bigger problem for Arabs and Muslims has been to articulate that our values and Ethics are the same as theirs - yet for this to be practically factual, not theoretical - the world must see the values of Tolerance, Pluralism, Freedom of conscience, Representative goverance, a free and participatory economy, institutionalized in our political economies.

The Middle East as a source of cheap energy no longer holds a monopoly, and Israel as as Watchdog now has reached a point of dimishing returns: therefore the American desire for a peace between Israel and Palestine - the cost of technology to liguify Gas is of strategic significance - Alternate means of energy, especially fuel cells is also of strategic significance, especially Military - The largest reserves of gas are not in CA or ME, but under the Arabian sea - that`s why Indian exclusive economic zone keeps growing - and Pakistani do not want to believe this because they a still wedded to the pipeline idea.

By the way an excellent read ``The Black Tulip``

by Milt Bearden, who can CIA operations during Mujahid/Soviet war.

Asif Naqshbandi

You have raised several very interesting ideas:

1. Neither the Ethics nor Morality nor the Unity of Muslims is antithetical to US. As a matter of fact it was UK that formed the idea of ``the Arabs`` when such a idea did not exist after the end of the Osmani Khalifat. We as Muslims must also we mindful that those whom we wish to see us as friends and brothers - to them we also have an obligation to see as friends and brothers. For anybody else to look out for us, we have to look out for them.

2. Oil - My brother, the world is awash in oil, like diamonds - it`s price is always artificial and has to be supported.

3. I have a post on Sameer`s board with regard to values, charachter - please review it and I would very much appreciate your comments.

4. The truth is that in it`s present manifestation political Islam scares the West and it`s opinion makers. The see it as hostile to it`s interests and it`s values. But this need not be the case. Reason, Liberty, Tolerance, Pluralism, Freedom of Conscience, Representative government - are ISLAMIC values and tradition. I am not saying that Muslims do not have enemies, As a Muslim, I think we most certainly do. We need friends to and enemies to see us the way we really are - our enemies argue that irrational and hostile is how we really are - a total disfigurement of our history and tradition - we can challenge this evil by making it clear that we will refuse to participate in the oppression or suppression of anyone, most of all ourselves. This evil is designed to evoke a hostile response from us - because they realize the ``injustice`` of it will evoke a response in us - but we must be careful to do away with ``injustices`` in our own lands and thereby frustrate such designs.

to the person who asked about who I include in the ``kafirs`` statement:and to tahmed123]

Sorry i didn`t reply in my last posts:

There are kafirs who although they are non-Muslims too do not bear enmity towards Islam (inlcuding political Islam eg Naom Chomsky, Robert Fisk, a lot of the ignorant masses); We have no quarrel with such people. Then there are the kaafirs who oppose/confront/hate Islam --these are the kaafirs I was referring too. Unfortunately these are all those in power who call the shots and the so-called ``educated`` people generally.

re romair 32

``While I would perhaps understand the domestic backlash, I think the US`s foreign policy barbarisms have reached disgusting levels. And I don`t want my tax money paying for that any longer.``

I am supposing you`re not going to file your 1040 this year? Please.

It is sad to see people who benefit from the protection of the Eagle to refuse to pay for that protection. Sad, but understandable. Feel free to send your saved tax money to the PLO :)

For the record, I`ll be happy to pay a cent more this year to help prop up the defenses of Israel. That country, along with Turkey, is the only true friend of America in the region. Fighting terror is costly. We have to be willing to pay the price.

asif 34

``sigalph---you are a Muslim and yet you want the defeat of Islam?``

Dude, I am talking about POLITICAL Islam. I think you know it but, as all Islamists do, are trying to fudge the matter.

`` Well done. With Muslims like you--who needs external enemies? Muslims like you are exactly the kind of Muslims America is willing to tolerate...those who do not oppose its hegemony! May Allah guide you and me!``

America is MY country. What on earth are you talking about? Patriotism is a part and parcel of imaan according to the hadith that your kind obviously overlook. And POLITICAL Islam is a threat to this country and all others; yes, I want it crushed without any delay. In our civilization political religion has no place. Alhamdolillah!

Akash #31 I dont think you will get a straight answer to your question from this Naqshbandi about who are these kaafirs he darkly refers too. All I can say is that this man speaks for himself, and in violation of what is in the Quran. I am also satisfied, after some interaction I had with him on another board, that this man does not give two hoots about what is in the Quran, nor does he have a clue what he writes about.

ylh #28 Please mind your language. You are welcome to air your views, but not to pollute it with such insults. I dont care how enlightened or unenlightened your views are, and I dont care how immature or mature you are: you have no right to use such language on chowk.

hobbytv #33: ``US policy is about US interests,``

I cannot agree with this. US foreign policy, unfortunately, is not about US interests. It is about Israeli interests. This is the tragedy. And American citizens are paying the price for Israel`s human rights violations.

It is in the interest of the US to have friendly relations with Arabs. They both need each other. Americans have the money and technology and Arabs have the natural resources. In purely Machevillian terms, what does the US gain from Israel? Nothing. It gains an ally against Arab enemies, who wouldn`t be enemies if the US was not support Israeli policies (both of the humane and inhumane variety), to begin with. The US, every years, give Isreal one thousand dollars per Israeli citizen (4 billion dollars/4 million Israeli). Yet it is unwilling to spend this money on its own homeless.

Arabs traditionally admired the Americans, as did most other colonised countries. Arabs overwhelmingly want to migrate to the USA. Based on this, how can US interests be in battling countries which have no way to strike the US, apart from terrorism? It is just creating more anti-American terrorists.

The current US/Arab battle (which may spread to US/Islam battle) is a result of a circle of events which is now turning into a tornado. Israelis occupied Arab lands. Arabs attacked Israelis. US supported Israeli terrorist organizations (the original Middle Eastern terrorist organizations were all Israeli; some of these individuals became Prime Ministers of Israel) and helped them attack Arabs. Arabs got their butts kicked. They couldn`t attack Americans and Israelis through military force, so they became terrorists. The Israelis went after the terrorists with more of their own terrorism. The US was forced into this war due to pro-Zionist lobby. So the US became a target of the attacks also. The US then started attacking Arab countries, all out. I don`t know what the next stage will be, but it cannot be too good.

The question to ask is: would the US and Arabs be allies or enemies, if Israel wasn`t involved? What is the US gaining for itself by being in a state of perpetual warfare with Muslims? The UN votes against the Isralies regularly, with only Israel and America voting in the opposite direction (with a few countries abstaining). Maybe UN resolutions should be honored in the Middle East also, as should Amnesty International reports.

YLH #30:

``A two front ideological war is the need of the day to gain our own footing.``

..instead, why not a ``A Great Jihaad`` like the ones your democratic dictator talked about?

Isn`t Imran Khan looking for volunteers to raise more money for the cancer hospital?

re: ylh

{{Naqshbandi Chootiyah,

Aur Bhonk laanti.}}

snippy snippy

``religion is much more potent as a divisive than a unifying force.``

kya sahee likha hai aapne, dost-mittar ji.

hobbytv miaN,

the USA despite all statements to the contrary does NOT want democracy in any of the Muslim countries because they know that as soon as Muslims are free to choose the kind of state they want then Islamic parties will get a large share of the vote and thus the politics of that country will become Islamicised--something the USA wants to avoid at all costs. Algeria is a good recent example as is Turkey of what happens when Muslim parties gain large numbers of votes/win etc. That is why--and all Western orientalists and political scientists will tell you--it is in US interests to keep Muslim countries ruled by client-rulers who do exactly as the USA tell them but with a veneer of freedom for the people to sell to the public at home. Any serious Islamic opposition is expected--and demanded--to be instantly crushed. That is why the US supports totalitarian and tyrannical regimes throughout the Muslim world--so that they can keep the ``Islamists`` in check by all sorts of methods.

So dont be fooled that they want democracy or a similar system which allows the Muslim people to choice their leaders because they know that the people will choose Islam.

The following extract from a recent book will be enlightening:

Analysing Jordan’s model strategies and mechanisms for manipulating Islamic activism

The Management of Islamic Activism: Salafis, the Muslim Brotherhood and State Power in Jordan by Quintan Wiktorowicz. Pub: State University of New York Press, Albany, NY, 2001. Pp: 205. Pbk: $18.95.

By Leila Juma

Of all the West’s client states and regimes in the Middle East, Jordan is arguably the most successful. Its creation (as the Emirate of Transjordan), and the installation of the Hashemite monarchy to rule it in 1922, were almost accidents; both the territory and Abdullah ibn Husayn were spare parts left in the box when France and Britain completed their carving up of the region after the first world war. Within a few years Abdullah was bemoaning his misfortune and demanding to be promoted to Damascus or Baghdad. A few decades later, however, when Abdullah’s grandson, king Hussein ibn Talal, died (1999), his funeral was a major international state event, attended by VIPs from all over the West hailing him as an international statesman. His son, Abdullah II, is now hailed as a model ruler in the Arab world, and Jordan, far from being a bit of nowhere-in-particular, is regarded as a key Western ally in the region.

Explanations of the status accorded to Hussein after his death focused, quite rightly, on his pro-Israeli stance. (It is interesting to note that British prime minister Winston Churchill said, after the assassination of Abdullah in 1951, that ``the Arabs have lost a great champion [and] the Jews have lost a friend``.) However, there was more to it than that. Hussein was also praised for his ‘liberalisation’ of Jordan’s politics during the last decade of his life, which was seen as a model of political development in the Arab world.

The reasons for this are not difficult to see. The West has apparently irreconcilable demands in this area. They want their authoritarian clients to maintain absolute control, to ensure that they can continue to do the West’s bidding without hindrance, while at the same time creating the impression of a popular, open, democratic and representative political system, in order to legitimise the regimes and disarm their critics, both locally and in the West. Both the West and their local clients know, however, that everywhere in the Muslim world the opening of politics to any popular involvement whatsoever inevitably results in Islamic influences emerging, which is the one thing the West fears most. What Jordan has achieved, since Hussein initiated a series of political reforms in 1989, is a limited loosening of politics in order to open the system to public debate, without any significant challenge to the establishment’s absolute authority. It is precisely this that the West would like to see repeated in other Arab countries, such as Egypt and the monarchies of the Arabian peninsula.

The fact that the Muslims’ commitment to Islamic values and principles remains the greatest threat to the success of these efforts is reflected in the title of the book under review: The Management of Islamic Activism: Salafis, the Muslim Brotherhood and State Power in Jordan. In this book, based on research conducted in 1996-97, Quintan Wiktorowicz, an American academic, examines the strategies by which Jordan has sought to manage and control the political expression of Islamic values in Jordan since the beginning of Hussein’s political ``reforms``, by looking at the experiences of both state officials and Islamic groups of different kinds. Among the latter, Wiktorowicz particularly focuses on the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan al-Muslimeen), Jordan’s best-established Islamic organisation, and the Salafis, who have tended to work through less formal networks...[cut
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