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Re arjun_m 135

Good question considering they both had a comfortable upper middle class upbringing.

Nasser Hussain was born in Madras and is essentially an British Indian muslim. Of course, as you well know, that makes him an inferior muslim in the eyes of some pakistanis because they essentially do not buy into the Kashmir Krapola.

On the other hand, this sheikh chap comes from a pakistani family, and even if he wasn`t political, I`m sure the circles the community moved in was religious and political.

A very good friend of mine is married to a hyderabadi gal from London, and she told me that while there are common religious links with pakistanis, there are huge cultural gaps between the middle class Indian muslims and their pakistani counterparts. she said that her parents were better able to integrate because they grew up comfortably in India and weren`t threatened by being part of a minority, either in India or in the UK.

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SameerJB #132: (and tahmed):


CROSSING THE CRESCENT

...first on a personal note ...thanks...for forwarding those wishes through ‘cutie-pie’ earlier on and for the welcome here...

...some digressions...if you will...

...there must be something wrong with us...as Pakistanis and as Muslims...if we continue to contrive or strive for ‘interventions’...divine or worldly...sigh...when will we learn to pick ourselves up by the bootstraps and go forth resolutely?...

...mushy baba is neither a gift from heavens (pun intended) nor an ambitious baton boy...he just happened to be up there at the right moment!...and he has shown an ssg commando’s preference for seizing the moment...and how long can he continue to work his magic depends on his hold on pragmatism and the consensus he can find among his tribe of faithful...(read the Corps Commanders:)...and here we come to your last line...`Will Pervez Musharraf act?’ ...in my opinion it should be re-worded...will the Corps Commander act?

...the wave, river, sea, or any other watery analogy would only work as long as the worldy gods continue to need a waterboy...

...and another digression...in a sense I agree with nayyar...why should we be defending our faith...or the lack of it...for the misplaced actions of some militant adversaries of the great satan?...it is not fair to blame everything entirely on the susceptible ‘crescent’ which cannot bear to ‘cross’ the field...but then we know already there is no such goddess of fairness in the second, third or other worlds;)...

regards,

temporal

hobbyt #127
``If we want to see a change in the area of relations between men and women, these four viewpoints have to change``

Yes. Often these relations are unchanged because the existing power equations between the principals does not favor change and infact resists it. One way to bring about changes in these and other societal attitudes across large numbers of people is to change the power equations, by political empowerment and affirmative action.

``After all, why is it appropriate to separate society, the political procress and the legislature, on the basis of gender, but not on the basis of caste, color, or religion? ``

Well, Sameer can answer for himself but there is already a stark separation in many countries along gender lines in control over distribution of resources, over legislation, over personal enablers like health, life expectancy, literacy, reproductive rights. The author to his credit recognises this division as the serious problem it is and is suggesting how to alleviate it.

Prem #117 No offense taken, sir. Thanks for striking your sound blows on behalf of good sense on chowk.

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re: tvarad

{{ Atiq Raza partnered with Vinod Dham at Nexgen }}

he betrayed the cause of kashmir..pakistan should disown him

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Assad_K: Even the question of liking Musharraf does not arise for me. I would have said the same even if he was my uncle or elder brother. It is a matter of principles. Nothing personal against Musharraf as a tall, well-dressed, soft spoken individual but, to me, he is the embodiment of a path that opens the gates to a whole lot of unprecedented, irrational, extraconstitutional, power hungry and institutional self-rightousness moves. Theoretically another military general can think of elevating himself because of more intelligent with better ideas with Musharraf leving with no legal or constitutional defense. That is the point. If a leader`s removal does not raise even an eyebrow, much short of legal or constitutional defense; he is not a leader.

It is because of this high risks involved, his credentials and acts can not be judged by the same measuring rod as those of elected leaders. Sac also outlined the problems with supporting Musharraf because as a leader, he is embodiment of lot more than just himself as an individual.

Instaed, his each act should be judged, independent of his poor overall rating due to what he represents. I suggested even immortality for him, if he selects the best available catalyst for the good of the country. Even in your post, you made no case opposing my proposal, except suggesting number of women in local bodies election. Believe me, it is well thought out proposal on my part. I weighed a number of things before saying it aloud. My motives were lot more than what I suggested in the article; the inherent strength of women, failure of male dominated elite in delivering equality and justice and cost effectiveness of catalysts. Without pointing them out one by one, it will lead to either most of what I dream of or nothing. If nothing, what is there to lose. I am not suggesting to buy F-16`s and park them somewhere facing west. Even in its failure, it will do irreversible damage to the hold of mullahs on moral and social issues; politically they never had any hold. Wouldn`t it be nice to have Asma Jahangir or Hia Gilani sitting in the national Assmbly controlling a sizeable number of MNAs. She will have more chances to win than Imran Khan could ever dream of. Is it bad for economy? Is it bad for literacy? Is it bad for social justice? Is it bad for education.

Since you raise the point of no country in the world having constitutional equality. Hey, no country was Islamic Republic before Pakistan, no country had blasphemy laws, no parliament anywhere ever refused to condemn honor killing. We are unique in so many ways; why not one good attempt at uniqueness?

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Firts of all, sorry Samir:-)

This is a very interesting piece of news from Far Eastern Economic review regarding education in South Korea. India needs some more of these Gandhi schools, IMO. The news of dozens of suicide cases by teenagers in India on flunking entrance exams of IITs is very disturbing.

``THE GANDHI SCHOOL is located deep in forests in southern Korea, about two hours from the port city of Pusan. Down the end of a two-mile unpaved dirt path, you come across a collection of ramshackle houses built one by one by the students and teachers since the school opened in 1997. Named after India`s Mahatma Gandhi, the school was founded by a group of teachers in a spirit of creative disobedience against what they believed was a suffocating education system.

That spirit permeates every aspect of school life: The students spend part of their day tending the grounds and doing housekeeping in their dormitories. ``None of my friends outside the school ever do household chores like this,`` says Bae Isak, 13. ``Their moms would just tell them to study instead. But I feel much more self-sufficient than them.`` There are also no uniforms and no rules forcing students to keep their hair short. ``Our school is all about freedom-the freedom of dress, freedom of speech, freedom to choose what they`d like to do,`` says Yang Hee Chang, the principal. ``In short, we treat them like individuals, like adults.``

That egalitarian attitude is particularly apparent in the relationships between teachers and students. Everyone knows everyone else`s name, and students joke and laugh with their teachers and talk freely to their principal about their troubles-a freedom almost unheard of in the strict Confucian formality of most Korean schools.

The Gandhi`s classrooms are even more unusual. First of all, students don`t spend much time in them. Usually, just the morning is reserved for traditional subjects like history, science and maths; the rest of the day is taken up by activities like sports, music, cooking and art. And while most of their peers are heading off to cram schools after their regular day`s classes, the Gandhi kids spend their afternoons hiking, hanging out or pursuing their own hobbies.

Hahm Kyung Wan is a freshman at the Gandhi School who is grateful for the time and freedom he has here. Gifted with a flamboyant style and artistic flair, he plans to become a marketer in the fashion industry. So he spends most of his free time reading marketing books and flipping through art and photography magazines. ``I would never be able to do this if I went to a regular school,`` he says. ``Here, I`m learning things that`ll be useful to me in the future.``

temporal #120: A warm welcome to this thread. I just read Natyyar Zaidi`s piece in Jang. Philosophically speaking, I disagree with his conclusion. What Bush said in Beijing, ``I am a Christian`` is for the consumption of his core constituency at home and what Musharraf said in Washington, ``I am a Liberal`` is for the consumption of US government. Nayyar Zaidi would have liked him to say, ``he is a Liberal Muslim`` because wave is only meaningful within the boundary of river (mauj hey darya maiN aur bairoon-e-darya kuch naheeN).

In modern world, the path a river (nation) follows must take into account of other larger rivers (influential nations) in the neighborhood as well as on earth.

Mauj (wave) itself is a function of riverbed and wind directino. Waves do not run against the wind (reminds me of old Bob Seager`s song, ``running against the wind``), unless waves are strong enough to challenge and survive the winds. Waves remaining within the river only alter the path of the river, albeit slowly with not necessarily positive results. The direction of winds can not be changed because they are too powerful, as in natural forces as well. What can be changed is the riverbed - changes at the grassroot level. Mauj will die if riverbed is made smooth, or water level is risen (development). For a person sitting by the river watching waves, feeling the wind direction and watching the coarse nature of the riverbed, ``mauj hey darya maiN,...........`` might be good poetry; not a good philosophy. Just like I am glad that the ``taRap of Ghaznavi suffered a blow in the caves of Tora Bora. As poetry, ``na woh Ghaznavi maiN taRap rahee,..........``, I don`t know.

````My cousin is a surgeon in Manchester and he has actually gone from being a relative ``liberal`` (by Pakistani standards) to being definitely more ``conservative`` (keeps halal, went on Haj, makes it a point of going to at least Jummah ki namaaz, Roza rakhta hai, etc.) (Fuzair)

May be your cousin thinks now -- that Allah did all that special FAVOR for him -- and will continue to make him prosperous -- if he continues to make Allah HAPPY by -- ``(keeps halal, went on Haj, makes it a point of going to at least Jummah ki namaaz, Roza rakhta hai, etc.)

Does he also consider the lazy ones no ``good Muslims``?

Sameer,

The nobility of your focus on women`s role in Pakistani society is unquestioned. I see your views in two perspectives. (1) Political representation and (2) Equal opportunity in jobs, both public and private sectors.

In an emancipated society, there should be no need for reserved legislative seats for women. Is it that we are advocating more reserved representation for women? or emancipation itself?

The equal opportunity in jobs is a trickier issue. There is fully equal opportunity for women in both the public and private sectors in Pakistan. The Central Civil Services (CSS) exams are free to participate in for both sexes. There`re many outstanding women civil servants in District Management, Foreign Service, Revenue Services, Judiciary and so forth. Women indeed do better academically than men and often are more suited to the job. Just one little thing; and I say it with caution; is that very few of our women are career-minded. A career places priority demands on a person`s lifestyle while, due to our social makeup rightly or wrongly, marriage is the prime objective of every girl graduating from college. A job somehow is more often than not merely a stepping stone to that. Employers when confronted with either hiring or promoting a higher than average young man and a brilliant young woman to a position of responsibility, often opt for the young man because they feel he will stay. A lot is invested in the promising employees by employers so they would rather invest in someone who`s likely to remain with the company than someone who`ll leave when she gets married or having a baby. Just a fact of life.

It is nevertheless also a fact that women dominate the multinational corporate scene in Pakistan including foreign banks at the low-middle management level. They never reach the top management though (with the exception of Chairman of Lever Brothers Pakistan who is a woman) because they get married-off and leave. For a successful career, one has to be married to the job. That commitment carries tremendous pressures of it`s own by consequence.

Having said all of the above, it`s a judgement call whether one wants to be married to the job or not. The key question then comes up whether men and women should both pursue careers and become providers, or one should become the provider and the other should tend to the family. It`s a question of perceived roles in life and nothing to do with equality or justice. It`s a question which has roots in the familial system as we know it and the question is whether it should be preserved taking all into account. The familial system can be dispensed with but not before the consequences are well thought out and managed by both sexes. When we talk about women, we`re talking about pillars of the familial system which men can never replace by their intrinsic nature. Men and women are different, very different; but with distinct qualities of their own which when combined in tandem, make a successful life.

Regards

Zeemax