Strategic Depth at Home

Zakk #262: Thanks for the reply and the list. As I stated, I have only mentioned people I have heard of and heard about. It is quite possible the names you have mentioned are better candidates. In which case they should be appointed.

In my opinion, cabinet positions should ideally go to technically qualified politicians. However, if their isn`t enough of a talent pool available there, then they should go to technically qualified people rather than politicians. Successful honest businessmen, in my opinion, make the best ministers. They know the problems and the solutions and have a good track record of success within the Pakistani system. While positions like Governor, MNA, Chief Minister etc. should go to politically popular people over technically qualified people.

I do not know much about Soomro, so he can be kicked out. He is a relative of the PML Soomro, and would thus give representation to the Sindhi feudals (a very powerful block in Pakistani politics). The governor of Sindh would have to be a rural Sindhi, with Musharraf (an urban Sindhi) being the President. Abdul Hafiz Shaikh may be better than Moeen Qureshi (I don`t know). Mengal will probably stay as the Governor of Baluchistan. If Iqbal Haider is better than Aitezaz Ahsan, then fine. I think the PPP leadership needs to be in the hands of urbanites, and out of the hands of feudals. So both fit the bill.

Imran Khan would be an excellent choice for governor. Look at the guy`s track record in everything he has touched (except politics, so far) and conviction and honesty. He is now a much mature politician than before. His party will get the third or fourth highest number of votes in the whole country (even though they will not win many seats). Who else has done anything for Punjab, who would make a better candidate?

The only thing I know about Makhdoom Khaliquzzaman are his long mustache and orange and yellow coats and pants. So I cannot say.

Afrasiab Khattak is defintely a good choice. Although, I am not sure whether he is interested in politics. If he is, then he should definitely be in. I am quite impressed with Asfandyar Wali Khan in all the interviews I have heard. Very balanced. A good choice for Chief Minister, hence not a governor candidate. Although, I have a great dislke for all the politicians in Pakistan who have already been tried. If they are so good, then why didn`t they improve Pakistan before. Don`t you think it is time for new blood, like Omer Asghar Khan (the guy is a philanthrapist and a politician, a rarity in Pakistan). If not him, then Asghar Khan. He single-handedly built one of the best and most technically advanced Air Forces in the world in a third world country. He was decades ahead of his time.

Dr. Mubarak Ali, I dont know much about. While I am a great admirer of the efforts of people like Pervez Hoodbhoy, they lack the maturity to handle positions of responsibility outside the university. His views outside his own area of expertise, in many cases, are quite ill-informed and based more on emotion than fact. He would however make a great vice chancellor for a research university.

Fuzair #265
In saying affirmative action benefiting white women who wouldnot get hired otherwise, I meant that without the campaign for equal oportunity, white women quite as competent and qualified as white men wouldnot have gotten hired because men were doing the hiring and they had a mindset about the suitability of employing women.

``OK, I could hazard guess: evil, Pakistani brute!``
You mean like every other Pakistani :)?

``you certainly don`t get my dander up``
Nice to hear that but something gets Samina`s dander up so you are quits. Being a guy doesnot make you more right, so there.

IMO, yourself and Samina have each had painful experiences on opposite sides of the divide and are reacting more to those painful experiences, than what the other posted here, namely reasonable readings of both sides of the question. I don`t think Samina was talking about the same `doing 2+2 = 4 is unwomanly or testable hypothesis is a male construct`(I can`t believe people actually say this). I am grateful because I find both your posts informative except the ad homine remarks of course.

I agree with Sameer that in general (though not in the sciences or anything requiring reason!!)womyn are either the foot soldiers or last line of defense at the male bastions/ barricades and their womynly anger is not inappropriate when the odds are weighted so heavily against them. Whether womynness is counterproductive in all US contexts, is something I hope to hear more about.

Re: Sadna #256

Quite right about the benefeciaries of US affirmative action. They have indeed been overwhelmingly white, middle-class women, which is one of the reasons why I am against gender/ethnicity based affirmative action. Not because women benefit from it [despite what Samina Shah would say ;-)] but because the benefits of such affirmative action almost always go to those who deserve/need it the least--the best-off of any such group--and the ones who need it the most get diddly. Socio-economic class based affirmative action is my preferred tool if we must insist on such social engineering experiments (although I would prefer to fix the poor public schools as a necessary first step in a more rational ``affirmative action`` policy).

Actually, I am not really in favor of hounding out and hunting down any one, not even difference-feminists. The tone of some, many, of Ms. Shah`s posts--annoying holier than thou, self-righteous smugness--reminds me of the shrill whining and shrieking I heard in grad school and the last few posts just really rubbed me the wrong way.

While you and I have rarely, if ever, interacted directly, I think its safe to say that many of our views would be diametrically opposed to one another. I don`t know what reaction I inspire in you (OK, I could hazard guess: evil, Pakistani brute!) but you certainly don`t get my dander up the same way that Ms. Shah`s posts do! This is in spite of the fact that, in broad terms, I think I would probably agree more with her than with you!
I think Ms. Shah would probably make a more effective advocate for her cause if she would take a slightly less confrontational attitude and chuck the ``difference feminist`` bilge where it belongs.

Regards.

The solution of giving women empowerment in a top down method is not going to work. While I support 1/3rd of the seats in the National Assembly, I doubt it will make too much difference in changing the condition of common women in Pakistan. It will prove as successful as having BB as a Prime Minister. Rich feudal men with no concern about common women will be replaced by rich feudal women with no concern about common women. Assuming that the aim is to improve the condition of women, and not to replace snoring male MNAs with snoring female MNAs, this is not a correct solution.

What will work is a bottom-up method. The current devolution plan giving 1/3rd reserved seats to women in local politics is going to do far more to improve the condition of women in Pakistan, then appointing women MNAs and ministers just because they are women. Another thing that needs to be done is to allow free education to all girls till matriculate. And high level of affirmative action for girls in all universities. And all the discriminatory laws against women like Hudood etc. need to be removed, etc. etc.

If one is just going to believe in top level affirmative action as the solution, then why stop at the assemblies? Why not state that 50% of Pakistani CEOs should be women? 50% of Pakistani Generals should be women. 50% of the military chiefs should be women (there are women generals in the military, you know). 50% of Pakistani airline pilots should be women. 50% of Pakistan police should be women. 50% of Pakistani taxi drivers should be women. So on and so forth.

While I do hope that the above does happen someday in Pakistan, forcing it through a top down law will cause more harm to women, than help. There won`t be enough competent female candidates available. The result will be more airplane crashes, more taxi crashes (how many women would be confident enough to drive cabs in the first place, so there will be a cab driver shortage), lack of discipline in the military, etc.

So how should the women empowerment be constituted: Lets take the practical example of female doctors. Pakistani medical colleges now have more female students than male students. In a few prominent medical colleges, girls constitute upto 70% of the student body. If these girls graduate and practice their profession, in ten to twenty years, there will be more female doctors in Pakistan than male doctors. At that point, the system will automatically have to adjust, and women will occupy very powerful positions in the medical field, because they will constitute the biggest talent pool.

Let`s take another example: The largest university in Pakistan, Karachi University, has more female students than male students. Once again, in ten to twenty years, it is possible that the liberal arts field of Karachi will thus have more women than men, and hence women will end up occupying the powerful positions.

Even in the US, affirmative action is not used at CEO level positions. It is used at most till middle management. Similarly, if Pakistani women are put into positions of power without first developing the women talent pool, the result will hurt women. If the two or three women pilots who are currently in PIA are made 747 pilots immediately through affirmative action, what will happen? They may end up crashing their planes. Will it be easier or more difficult for women to enter the flying profession, after that. A better solution would be to induct more girls into Pakistani flying clubs and then into PIA as entry level pilots, through affirmative action. Let these women then form the talent pool out of which the best and most experienced can become 747 pilots.

Empowerment of any group that has been sidelined for centuries is a slow process. It cannot be done just with a few laws. And the most important factor is the leadership provided by the influential members of the sidelined group. All said and done, women will have to force their way into the Pakistani mainstream, because there will be too many people (both powerful and weak men and powerful women) who will attempt to keep them sidelined. Every Pakistani leader is not going to be as open-minded as Musharraf. The influential well looked after women of Pakistan will have to lead this struggle. This is the area where unfortunately Pakistan has a great lacking. I have met very few influential Pakistani women who are willing to become role models for the less privelaged women in Pakistan.

Urstruly #255: I failed to understand your replies. Are you suggesting that Musharraf and Maleeha Lodhi aren`t good leaders, and not doing a good job, because they are on the Newsweek list.

There was actually one Hindu on the latest Newsweek list: Vajpayee. So you need to look at the list again.

As for Musharraf being an American agent. I highly doubt it. I have been supporting Musharraf since day one, when people were calling him a religious fanatic, a muterwa, and God knows what else. Since that time, I have watched with great interest all the johnny-come-latelys attempt to jump on his bandwagon (including US Presidents). Rest assured, Musharraf has and will do what is in Pakistan`s interest. I have worked for too many Generals to not be able to pick out the good ones from the bad ones. Everything I stated about him since day one has so far proven to be accurate.

Wait for a few weeks, and you will be introduced to how the militant freedom struggle in Kashmir actually works, and who the concerned parties are, in the storyline that I have been researching.

urstruly #254 you write ``Oye Hinduo, Badmasho, transvestito, doghlay bandro, langooro`` Since I am getting tired of this routine (where you write some bs and I step in with a whistle), please do me a favor next time and add this line at the end on my behalf: ``PS: I urstruly declare that I have no control over my language, and like all madmen should be permitted to do the rounds on chowk shouting curses. Also pray please contribute to the fund to get me some electric shock treatment so I may be cured of this horrible disease. Thank you.`` This way, I wont have to waste my time and you can become a one-man show all by yourself.

For more than 15 years, the world has refused to acknowledge the fascist goings on in India - Today, Indians themslves are are awakening from the stupor of the fascist instinct they have have nutured.Witness: ``the illiberal tendencies a military dictator seeks to expel, with popular support, from Pakistan seem to be finding a hospitable home in democratic India.``

February 25, 2002 - New York Times

``Hinduism`s Political Resurgence

By PANKAJ MISHRA

NEW DELHI -- A few weeks ago I was in Ayodhya, a North Indian pilgrimage town. In 1992 a crowd of Hindu men demolished a 16th-century mosque in Ayodhya. They claimed it had been built by the Mogul emperor Babur over the birthplace of Lord Rama. India changed fast after that moment of Hindu nationalist rage. The politicians who had led the crowd to the mosque that morning and later watched their followers erect Hindu idols over the rubble — and who for most of the 50 years since independence had been on the political sidelines — now hold top positions in the Indian government.

Since the 1992 destruction, an enthusiasm for the free market has also overtaken India, but the new middle- class affluence hasn`t reached Ayodhya. Down its monkey-infested alleyways, the richest people are still Hindu abbots. One whom I met in Ayodhya was Ramchandra Paramhans, who helped initiate, in 1950, the legal battle for the temple and who in the early 1980`s entered into an opportunistic alliance with Hindu nationalist organizations then attempting to attract Hindu voters through an explicitly anti- Muslim program.

Mr. Paramhans described to me, as he fed cows in his vast straw-littered compound, how he had upbraided India`s home minister, L. K. Advani, on the phone that morning for having neglected the temple issue. In his white dreadlocks and long beard, he seemed like a Hindu version of the self-important mullahs I had met in Pakistan. But senior bureaucrats really had traveled, a few weeks before, to his compound to mollify him after he threatened to bring down the government. And a few days after my visit to Ayodhya, Mr. Paramhans showed up in New Delhi at the head of a heavily publicized procession of abbots to deliver personally a blunt ultimatum to Prime Minister Behari Vajpayee.

I couldn`t help but recall my meeting early last year with some prominent Islamic clerics and politicians at an old madrasa near Peshawar, Pakistan. The madrasa had become notorious after some of its alumni became the leaders of the Taliban. Its teachers were keen to impress upon me the apolitical nature of their work. I suspected they were dissembling, but I was more struck by their defensiveness. It was as though they could sense what has been confirmed since by the fundamentalists` failure to stir up trouble for Pervez Musharraf: that public opinion overwhelmingly opposes the fanatical ideologies that have undermined Pakistan in every way. It is this strong anti-extremist sentiment that General Musharraf now relies on — much more than American support — in his crackdown on militant groups and his more discreet confrontations with the ideologues given high places by the previous military ruler, Mohammad Zia ul- Haq.

While General Musharraf strives toward a secular polity, the ruling politicians of India head in the opposite direction. Hindu nationalists have long exalted Hindutva, or Hindu-ness, over the secular identities proposed for India by Gandhi and Nehru. So now the federal minister for education, Murli Manohar Joshi, promotes a new Indian history that highlights the depredations of Muslim invaders (as they are called) and celebrates Hindu bravery. Mr. Joshi has also allocated funds for such ``Hindu sciences`` as astrology. This sectarian-minded education is objected to by many of India`s distinguished historians — especially those who had stressed India`s pluralist traditions in their now discarded textbooks. Mr. Joshi recently denounced these historians as ``academic terrorists`` who were more difficult to fight than the usual kind of terrorist.

This may be bluster; and perhaps India`s largest-circulation news magazine, India Today, describes an isolated mood in a recent cover story on the ``return of the militant Hindu.`` But that mood does exist. Fed by a patriotic media and film industry and reflected in bellicose posturing against Pakistan, it nearly dominates public life now; its urban middle-class constituency hopes that nationalism may provide a measure of security against the economic and political crises that, in the early 90`s, had looked so threatening. And nationalist leaders continue to strengthen their hold over the heavily centralized Indian state as their constituents continue to gain from a globalized economy.

An antiterrorist ordinance — introduced by the government before the recent attacks on the parliaments in Kashmir and Delhi — would have required up to three years` imprisonment for a journalist who failed to assist government authorities. It has been challenged by human rights groups and political parties concerned about the possibility of its misuse against minorities. In any case, the ordinance is unlikely to curtail the activities of Hindu extremist outfits affiliated with the government like Shiv Sena, which claimed some credit for demolishing the Babri mosque in Ayodhya in December 1992 and was indicted by a judicial commission for inciting the pogrom against Muslims in Bombay in 1993.

What was once quickly identified as unreasonable and aberrant — Hindu majoritarianism — enjoys a growing influence and legitimacy as the ruling ideology of the Indian government. Oddly, the illiberal tendencies a military dictator seeks to expel, with popular support, from Pakistan seem to be finding a hospitable home in democratic India.

Pankaj Mishra is author of ``The Romantics,`` a novel.``

Re Omair:

The defence you use for competence and professionalism is an old one, Technocrats from my experience tend to be good only when they have political direction from strong leaders, they lack the spine to be bold and sensitivity to feel the pulse of people. I am speaking from personal experence with the technocrats appointed as Ministers in NWFP.

I would like to make a critique of one candidate Soomro does not impress, Mian Soomro was one of three appointed to NCB`s by the not so Sharif,

The other 2 Shaukat Tarin and Zubyr Soomro did a much better job then MMS, the one who did the worst job with the National Bank of Pakistan was made Governor of Sindh. Perhaps a little jealousy from the Citibanker finance Min, scuttled ZS and ST from getting a more senior appointment?

I would also add to the list of people you are recommending, the fine Abdul Hafiz Shaikh finance Min Sindh, he`s been given very high marks by people and I recently read an excellent interview with him in the Herald.

Another person who gets very high marks is The Governor of Baluchistan, Mengal..is the only Governor to have stayed from the beginning and his relationship with the Army has been given high marks , as well as maintaining a clean provincial govt after massive abuse.

At the Political level, I would drop aitaz ahsan and go for Iqbal Haider, the thought of Omer Asghar Khan as Gov NWFP is scary by the way!! To much techno babble, and the guys got little to show for what he`s done in NWFP..besides build a constutency which might for once let him beat Gohar Ayub in Haripur. Another scary thought is Imran Khan as Gov Punjab( I know your a PTI guy..but hell he`s gonna make the Nawab of Kalabagh look nice, and hasnt he got enough guys in the cabinet already..Sattar, Aziz..Owais Ghani)

To speak of representation from Baluchistan, Hayee Baluch, Khude nOor, Mahmood Achakzai

In Sindh, I think high of Makhdoom Khaliquzaman

From NWFP, foriegn affairs, Bashir Matta, human Rights, Afrasiab Khattak( the present chairman of the HRCP, who replaced Asma Jehangir, he refused to take a cabinet post initially under a Military govt), you want political leadership, Asfandyer Wali, Ajmal Khattak( the first politican to meet Musharraf and tipped to replace Tarrar at one point), Others who get high marks are Qazi Anwar one of the best Lawyers in the country, Adnan Aurenzeib from Swat, served as parlimentry Secretary and got high amrks for being clean and competent.

There are a lot of others, I can name but thats just those that come to my mind, for other technocrats, I am sure they are a lot in teh diaspora,

O personal choice from Old punjab..personal favourites..Dr Mubarak Ali, and Chowks very own Pervaiz Hoodhboy. Thats about it!! Comments please!

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Just take the well documented data about prison population, crime rate or even speeding tickets. women, being half of the population, contribute little to disturb the peace of any society. Either it is not in their nature or they do not get as many chances to go astray. If their nature is less ``evil``, why not count on it? If they do not get equal chances of corruption or crime, they are less empowered.

In places like Pakistan or even the West, the womyn type have not contributed to the failing of the societies. They are more likely to provide the second or even last line of defense. The fight is really on the frontlines, with one side being too powerful to lose easily. From women`s point of view, nobody should lose: instead a win-win situation is exactly in line with their nature and to their benefit.

Pakistani politics is a caste or biradri based, particularly since the non-party based elections of Zia Ulhaq. The King`s party (PML-QA) in Pakistan is made up of more caste or tribal-affiliation based politicians than any other political party. If he is satisfied with baradri based elections; why not another baradri, another lower caste that represents half of the population - the gender lower caste. At least here is a ``party`` with no beggage of corruption, extraconstitutional take overs or involvement in sectarian violence.

I wonder, even in Afghanistan, how much blame for the total devastation during the last 22 years - since the arrival of Russian soldiers - can be placed on women? Almost nothing. Instead they have only one kind of contribution, more than equal contribution when it comes to counting and documenting sufferings.

Fuzair #248
You do realise that for every rabid difference-feminist who insists she is right only because she is a male-afflicted woman, there are even more men, who insist they are right simply because they are men ? How many such difference-feminists are in decisionmaking positions compared to such men?

If you feel compelled to crusade against one group, why protest when others go on crusades about the other and with more reason?

I have heard it said that the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action and equal employment opportunity efforts in the US were white women who just wouldn`t get hired otherwise.

Further to 253.

And I forgot the name of our very own, Benazir Bhutto, the daughter of East (bought her graduation from oxford). Prime Minister twice. Head of largest political party in Pakistan PPP (Perpetually Pregnant Prime Minister-as dubbed by newsweek)

Oye Hinduo, Badmasho, transvestito, doghlay bandro, langooro!

Where is SHAMMI. Tell him its not the first time and it is not gonna be the last time. I was actually flattered to see that someone had actually created himself in my image and called himself Urstru(1)y.

THat is OK, he can come back, I wont eat him.

Romair # 228

AOOZUBILLAH E Minashytan-Nirajeem

The following people had also been on the Newsweeks and times` most influential people who were supposed to change the century and the world.

Zia-ul-Haq
Anwar Sadaat
Shah Iran
Marcos
The Isreali Prime minister who was murdered, cant recall his name.
A couple of South American dictators.
Gorbachev
Boris Yelstin
Shah Hassain of Jordan

Every one of them did change the world-for Americans.

The new list includes:

Musharaf

Hamid Karzai (this baldy is also on the top of US & Euro faggot fashion designers).

and miscelleneous change that you mentioned.

It is good to see that no Hindu has ever made to the top 100 people who will change the world.

na na na na na na na na na

Romair #246 How about saving some slots for some of us on chowk in the national/provincial governments that you are forming?? How about a district for your brother?? Just one lousy district, that`s all I ask for!!

Rsaxena #243 further to my post below, and in case you are wondering, the reason is that chowk is not a law court either. (It is a discussion group, and the quality of discussion is dependent on common sense, not on the use of legalistic loopholes when convenient.)