Strategic Depth at Home

Romair

What kinds of odds are you offering on Musharraf being an ``elected`` President?

``I understand from the Indian posters on this board that all is well in India and even beggars drive to their street corners, where they sit on lounge chairs listening to rock music and sipping lemonade).``

Laughter is unseemly when we are discussing such sad things, but tahmed saheb, you have a way with words. You made me laugh. Thank you :)

hobbyty,

Yup...that is the thought that came to me too...this unfortunate incident will make it harder for people to re-trace their steps and go back to their old ways, at least not to earlier extent, and not so long as America remains involved. My feeling is America will not walk away for some time now. That should be a positive for Musharraf, for Pakistan, and ultimately for India too. Perhaps Danny`s soul may help us all.

Reply #: 178 Syed Ahmed

Danny Pearl was a senseless victim indeed. The clash of civilisations will claim mamny innocent victims. There will be rivers of blood.

Reply #: 171 saminashah

Can you please get this gender chip off your shoulder ?

Rgds

Zeemax

Will Shaukut Aziz be the next Prime Minister?

``Forex reserves touch record $5 billion mark

KARACHI (February 22 2002) : For the first time in history, Pakistan`s foreign exchange reserves reached a high of $5 billion, enough for six months of imports, as a result of a continued flow from Pakistanis living abroad and financial aid from multilateral donors......

The rupee has strengthened steadily after Sept 11 and, in the open market, it improved from Rs 67.50 to Rs 59.45 to a dollar, and in the inter-bank market from 64 to 60.15 to a dollar.``(www.brecorder.com)

I am taking bets on the following odds:

Prime Minister:

Shaukut Aziz 3/1, Moeen Qureshi 5/1, Amin Fahim 6/1, Mian Azhar 7/1, Soomro 8/1, Omer Asghar Khan 10/1, Ejaz-ul-Haq 11/1, Fakhr, Imam 12/1, Imran Khan 14/1, Chaudhry Shujaat 15/1, Aitezaz Ahsan 16/1, Asghar Khan 30/1, Benazir 40/1, Nawaz Sharif 50/1

Governor Punjab:

Current Governor 2/1, Imran Khan 5/1

Governor NWFP:

Current Governor 2/1, Omer Asghar Khan, 4/1 Asghar Khan 8/1

Foreign Minister:

Abdus Sattar 3/1, Maleeha Lodhi 5/1

Ambassador to India:

Current Ambassador 2/1, Shaharyar Khan 5/1, SameerJB 7/1

President:

Musharraf 1/1, ylh 2/1 :-)

Gentlemen (and ladies) place your bets

Syed #178 It is true that there were many civilian victims of the bombing in Afghanistan. It is also true that there are people murdered every day in Karachi due to sectarian violence or plain crime, often as viciously as Daniel Pearl. It is also true that there are thousands of people who die of starvation, curable disease, and exposure every day in Pakistan (I say Pakistan, since I understand from the Indian posters on this board that all is well in India and even beggars drive to their street corners, where they sit on lounge chairs listening to rock music and sipping lemonade).

So: first, if you must point to the fact that thousands of other people have also died, you should not be selective as you are. By being selective, you are showing the same disregard for human live and concern for political points that seems to be prevalent among the South Asian ``elite`` on this board and elsewhere. (What kind of people are we anyway????)

second, it is obvious that we can only mourn the deaths of people we know as people - whether they are loved ones or people whose family circumstances and life we are aware of as in case of Pearl. Otherwise we would be in mourning for the millions of good people who pass away every day.

Please reconsider your line of thinking, and dont belittle this terrible human tragedy of Danny Pearl with your faulty logic as pointed above.

Re: Syed Ahmed, #178

Symbols are quite powerful. Take Rosa Park for example. She may have been merely an ordinary woman, but what she symbolized is what mattered.

One cannot equate the atrocities committed by a group of people, that not only includes the ``terrorists`` but the ``legit`` acts committed by the Western and Israeli governments themselves, to one murder.

When someone as high profiled as Daniel Pearl is so barbarically butchered he becomes a powerful symbol for all those faceless and nameless innocent victims of barbaric acts the world tend to forget and/or overlook.

Your post reflects an apologist. In a nutshell it says, ``Oh yeah, that`s right, but...`` It is this ``but`` that is so dangerous. It encourages those who are committing heinous crimes.

``we are a Third world people masquerading as first world stalwarts``

That is one insipid sentence. If I did not know you better, I`d think that you are taking a cheap shot.

re:Reply #: 174

tvarad,

I did not mean American parents do not love their children. I am talking about a system. Let me narrate a story.

When i was in research during my fellowship in a reputed University, i had this medical student join the lab as a research assistant. As we got to know each other, this guy asked me about my medical education and how i paid for it. I told him i got my degree in India and my father paid for my education. He was very surprised and told me that he had to leave home at 18 after finishing his high school and had to get a scholarship to do an Engineering degree. Afterward finishing engineering, he decided to go for medicine. His debt will run into thousands of dollars by the time he finishes his degree. In contrast, my father would have paid may be not more than a few lakhs of rupees for my tution fee, hostel fee, books etc. Still, the fact is there was never any doubt he was going to provide me with that kind of support. I am grateful for that. In Indian (and Pakistani) culture that kind of support is a given.

My research friend was told by his father to support himself once he finished his own schooling. My friend still loves his parents and i am sure they love him also. This is the kind of power structure i was talking about.

I have also seen many medical students from India and Pak whose study in US is completely being financed by their parents. Why should the parents do this? What do they gain? It is not that their children are ever going to pay them back. I hope you see the difference. Both are right in their own way. In American culture, where individulity and free choice is respected, there is noway a parent will ever influence his children what vocation to choose (and i agree this happens with many Indian parents here, who strongly influence their children to go for medicine or engineering or law; however, more and more Indian children are going for different vocations of late). At the same time, American parents do not feel obligated to fund their children`s education. They feel they have done their job once their children have finished schooling (there are always exceptions).

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 169

tahmed,

Thanks for your post.

For every one good school in US, there are 2 bad ones at least. I was talking to an obstetrician in the hospital i work and she told me how her father (who was a school teacher) had taken premature retirement and settled in Arizona. She said few teachers today are motivated to teach. The value system in US has changed and is not same as in the 50s. Elders are not respected. If a teacher punishes a student, the parents seem to find fault with teachers everytime. That is why my obstetrician friend`s father found the job very frustrating and stressful and opted out.

Then there are these good school districts and bad school districts. People buy expensive houses (as my brother-in-law did some years ago and my brother is trying to do now)just to be in a good school district so that their children can attend a good school. Not all can afford expensive houses. So, what about the rest? Just because they are not in a good school district, they end up sending their kids to a bad school.

We keep hearing about violence in schools. Kids bringing in guns and shooting their colleagues or teachers. That is why i said some schools are scary and one has to be very careful about where you send one`s children. More and more parents are now opting for home tutoring. In this scheme, parents have the option to teach their kids at home. They are carefully monitored by the school district supervisor.

Make no mistake, the schools in US are by far superior to schools in India or Pakistan. They have more gadgets, more facilities. Are all the kids learning? That is a tough question to answer.

Sridhar

Sameer JB:

What’s with this ‘one-third’ figure? I mean currently (or not long ago) women parliamentarians were less than 5%. When trying to increase their seats, why stop at one third- why not go for full 50%? I think in Iran, women make up one-third of the parliament members. The faujis now want ‘one-third’ of them to be women in Pakistan. Is ‘one-third’ an Islamic compromise or sorts?

Chowkies,

FINALLY: A public recognition of the difference between belief and FAITH - a call away from the religiosity of outward emmulation and towards the inner encounters with the Loving, Merciful, Compassionate creator, that will always reflect in the outer, social dimension - away from moralizing, towards the REDEMPTIVE - Can the social effects of this awareness, be different from ``Changes in serving values predate or occur simultaneously with social transformations`` Awaken! Arise sleepers! Rejoice! - From ``the News Interantional`` Editorial dated 23 Feb. 2002:

``Eid introspection

Addressing over two million pilgrims at Mount Arafat near Makkah Mukarama, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul Aziz, emphasised two important issues brought into focus by the terrorist attacks of September 11 and its aftermath. He strongly refuted any linkage between Islam and terrorism, equating the latter with ``tyranny and injustice`` which are totally alien to the Islamic teachings of respect for human life, justice and peace. The Sheikh informed Islam`s critics that it expressly forbids violence against women, children and non-combatants even during war. And, these humane laws were laid down in an era when carnage was the norm during wars and the Geneva Conventions over thirteen centuries into the future.

In fact, it is unfair to link terrorism with any religion. Terrorism is violence against innocent civilians and no religion can condone such cruelty, much less justify it. Thus, neither the earliest Jewish terror gangs, which killed and drove Palestinians from their homes in present day Israel, nor the cruelty and killings by the Israeli occupation army can be ascribed to the teachings of Prophet Abraham or the later prophets. This barbarity flows from corrupted texts, Rabbinic bigotry and misled people. Similarly, the massacre of thousands of Jews and Muslims by the 11th century European crusaders was the very anti-thesis of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The essence of all religions is peace, harmony and justice and it is their corruption by zealots and war-mongers that breeds tyranny and terrorism.

The second important point made by Sheikh Abdul Aziz was to caution the Ummah that it was unwise and irrational to blame others for all its woes. He identified weak faith and disunity as the main causes for what has befallen the Muslims. Indeed, there have been calls from the West as well as the Muslim world to look within for the causes of its many weaknesses. One cannot, after all, expect the enemy to make allowance for our follies. The general state of the Muslim world -- bereft as it is of modern and participatory governance as well as the intellectual capacity for scientific inquiry and advancement -- is indeed a cause for deep introspection, reform and rejuvenation.

The aftermath of September 11 poses precisely this challenge which, if left unresponded to, could cause further marginalisation of the world`s 1.3 billions Muslims. Considering the spiritual journey and the spirit of sacrifice it embodies, Eidul Azha ought to be just the occasion for all Muslims, as individuals, groups and countries, to embark on a journey of introspection, self-assessment and self-criticism. The foremost need is to free Islam from the suffocating clutches of obscurantism and autocracy and release its egalitarian and equalising essence. Amid rising poverty and injustice, we in Pakistan need to ponder whether sacrificing animals once a year and performing other rituals is the be all and end all of our faith. Or, do we also need to build a just and fair society which guarantees dignity and equal opportunity to all? The answer is axiomatic.``

Dear Zeemax # 162

Danny Pearl`s killers are not Kafirs, they are evil. Decent Pakistanis don`t need to take revenge for Danny`s soul, they need to begin handing out exemplary punishment.

May be this horrific act will shock some people out of their ostrich-like moral equivocations and defenses. Should that happen, Danny Pearl would not have died in vain.

Danny Pearl is not yet a Pakistani hero. But he can be MADE into one. That will be of immense benefit to the children of Pakistan, and by extension, to the whole world. But the choice really lies with Pakistanis. What Pakistan`s silent majority does or does not do at this stage will determine much of the future.

Given Pakistan`s immense human resources, there is no reason why Pakistan can not be amongst the leading nations on earth. Pakistanis just have to make a clear decision to move forward.

On Feb 17, 2002, I wrote the following to Shammi on the ``Place fo Debate`` board.

Feb-17-02 14:30:40 EST Reply #: 425

hobbyty

Shammi

...A huge story is brewing with the personalities and movement connected to the Kidnapping of journalist, Daniel Pearl - an absolutely marvelous opportunity to do the kind of house cleaning Mr. Najam Sethi had called for in an editorial last week. Lets hope and pray, Pearl is alive and will cooperate with American authorities.``

At the risk of sounding callous towards the family of Daniel Pearl, an innocent cowardly murdered, and to those among us who will focus on the negative effect of his murder on Pakistan, the region or even the image of Islam - Daniel Pearl`s murder is a catalyst for one of the most forceful social transformations to effect Pakistan and it`s social structures. The die has been cast, those harboring any hope that they may still reverse the complex changes set into motion in the October revolution and events associated with 9/11 - have a choice, make your peace or face the full force of the coercive apparatus of the state, backed by international consent. In such an atmosphere, even the ``exiled,`` as opposed to the banished, take discretion to heart, in the ``public interest``.

Very moving, very touching

`They Did Not Take My Spirit`

A statement from Danny Pearl`s widow.

BY MARIANE PEARL

Friday, February 22, 2002 3:00 p.m. EST

From the bottom of my heart, I would like to express my gratitude to all of the people throughout the world who have given Danny and me support and encouragement.

The messages I have received from the five continents have shown me that a lot of you who don`t even know Danny personally have come to understand him as a man. Not a hero, not a spy, but an ordinary man and great journalist who has traveled the world to reveal facts and seek the truth--a value for him as sacred as freedom itself.

Danny`s principles were steadfast: He never accepted an opinion at face value nor submitted to those who tried to silence or pressure him, regardless of their power or nationality. All of this can be seen in the work he has produced over the last 12 years as a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. A video has been produced of him forced to read a statement and then showing him dead and stabbed in the most cruel and cowardly manner.

From this act of barbarism, terrorists expect all of us to bow our heads and retreat as victims forever threatened by their ruthlessness. What terrorists forget is that they may seize the life of an innocent man or the lives of many innocent people as they did on Sept. 11, but they cannot claim the spirit or faith of individual human beings.

The terrorists who say they killed my husband may have taken his life, but they did not take his spirit. Danny is my life. They may have taken my life, but they did not take my spirit.

I promise you that the terrorists did not defeat my husband no matter what they did to him, nor did they succeed in seizing his dignity or value as a human being. As his wife, I feel proud of Danny. I trust that our struggle will ultimately serve the greater purpose of resisting those evil people casting a shadow upon our world. This responsibility rests with each one of us no matter our age, our gender, our nationality, our religion. No individual alone will be able to fight terrorism. No state alone will be able to wage this battle. We need to overcome cultural and religious differences, motivating our governments to work hand in hand with each other, perhaps in an unprecedented way.

I think we are now all aware that terror is not a problem facing one country alone, not Pakistan, not the United States. It is the world-wide responsibility of governments and we as journalists, professionals of all kinds and human beings--mothers and fathers, daughters and sons. We are all going to need courage and commitment. Let us inspire each other to goodness.

Revenge would be easy, but it is far more valuable in my opinion to address this problem of terrorism with enough honesty to question our own responsibility as nations and as individuals for the rise of terrorism. My own courage arises from two facts. One is that throughout this ordeal I have been surrounded by people of amazing value. This helps me trust that humanism ultimately will prevail. My other hope now--in my seventh month of pregnancy--is that I will be able to tell our son that his father carried the flag to end terrorism, raising an unprecedented demand among people from all countries not for revenge but for the values we all share: love, compassion, friendship and citizenship far transcending the so-called clash of civilizations.

RE: Reply #: 168 tahmed321

``I think it is pathetic that you, like so many Indian posters on chowk, are so obsessed with Pakistan that even a tragic death like that of Mr. Pearl elicits comments only in terms of what it does for Pakistan`s image. Dont worry about image so much, images are hard to define, are easily overshadowed by realities, and change overnight. Worry about the lack of humanity one shows when the personal tragedy of this death is overshadowed by this nationalistic perspective.``

tahmed321,

If you remember, Omar Sayed and Mahmud Azhar were freed in the hijacking of the Indian Airlines flight to Kandahar. I remember reading helpessly as these guys disappeared into the dust of Afghanistan and magically appeared in Pakistan sometime later. At the very least, they were indirectly culpable for the heinous murder of Rupen Katyal who was one of the passengers and so should have been brought to justice. But what did Pakistan say then? There are no cases in Pakistan against them so even arresting them (not extraditing them, mind you) was out of the question. Not only that, these same murderers were given free rein to do what they wanted in Pakistan. It is therefore not a question of ``nyack, nyack, nyack`` but a wholesale indictment of the Pakistani establishment.

BTW, Rupen Katyal was on his honeymoon in Nepal when the hijackers slit his throat, just like Pearl`s.

Pakistani Homosexuals In the Army

There were two Pakistani homosexuals in a Camp. One was DC and the other was AC. AC/DC means alternate current/direct current.

DC proposed to AC - lets us do flip-flop. AC said why we need to do that. DC said that whole officer corps of Pakistan Army is doing that. AC pretended he did not know.

It is called `strategic depth`` - a code for flip-flop in Pakistan Army.