Taboo: The Hidden Culture of a Red Light Area (Review)

StarBuck #93 Actually, I think some christian priests manage to spice up their life anyway, judging from recent news.

Reply Soysauce # 92

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy am I the preferred point of contact for ruminations on prostitution and one night stands???????

Khair, now that I’m here…

“Why is prostitution outlawed in my city while no one would even dream of outlawing one-night stands? Questions, questions...”

IMO a combo of reasons:

1 Because the police can exert some control over prostitution – they would be utterly unable to control one night stands.

2 Not so long ago adultery and fornication WAS illegal and punishable in the way prostitution (and homosexuality) still are in some places today. The laws may still be on the books…so one night stand artists may indeed be outlaws of some sort. (V John Rechy.)

[Depending where you live, you’d be surprised at what is against the law. In Georgia (still? And some other states) sodomy is against the law. Every heard of somebody being arrested for sodomy in Georgia? In fact, can you define sodomy as it is understood by the state of Georgia? (I can’t remember the definition, but I do remember being surprised when I read it in an article.) Similarly in Tasmania. Fortunately two places one would probably avoid.]

Why outlaw this stuff? Because successful regulation is control.

3 Our first instinct in dealing with a social evil is to outlaw it and arrest people who engage in it. The Double Standard is alive and well here, btw. Some would say that such laws punish women who do not fit into the sati-savitri box.

4 Any illegal activity is vulnerable to corrupt officials. Payola galore for cops etc. This is also, btw, why marijuana (and other drugs) remain utterly illegal. Ever met a cop who really wanted to reduce the number of laws people can be “gotten” under?

5 Even if the police have no intention of prosecuting anyone under a law, sometimes those who speak for the moral majority like having it on the books – to “send a message”. Unfortunately this criminalises people, putting them at the mercy of the “underworld” and cutting them off from recourse if they are mistreated.

TAHMED #85

Thank you for acknowldging my post #68

Prostituion like any phenomenon cannot have only one cause .There is man ,there are some WILLING women ,then there are some exploted women so on & so forth.

It is just as wrong for me to paint all with the same brush ,i admit ,i never tried to do that either .Yet as someone speakng against the modern liberalism said everything cannot be left for the inhuman supply demand forceses of market ...or on the Human freedom of choice to ``do`` whatever ones ``ID`` desires.Freedom without boundaries is chaos & anarchy .

Here is a suggestionfrom christian pious man,if not friom MUllah which turns you off....

http://headlines.sify.com/646news3.html

Priest urges wives to spice up sex

Rome, Feb 23So you thought priests are only meant to read out from religious texts and give you a sermon or two? Think again.An Italian priest has told wives to give their husbands more exciting sex to stop them resorting to prostitutes.According to Father Oreste Benzi many married men go to prostitutes because their love life has become boring.Father Benzi leads a national charity which is dedicated to helping prostitutes give up sex work and find new lives.``Statistics say that sex gets boring between married people and that is why men look for prostitutes for a good go,`` he told Tgcom Web site.``Four out of 10 Italian couples separate or divorce sooner or later. One way to avoid that would be for married woman to spice up the sexual relationship with their husbands.``This will discourage men from going with prostitutes, and eventually help prostitutes get rid of their jobs, which they are often forced to do by circumstances.``Now, that`s some advice, eh!

#64 ZAT

Thanks for putting up with me, but I have been trying to figure out how prostitution differs from any other activity involving consenting adults in that the society tries hard to ban it. I have confirmed bachelor-type friends who aver that marriage is itself a glorified form of prostitution. Guess you caught my insinuations there. Perhaps what sets prostitution apart is that only one person derives pleasure from that activity and knows beforehand that it would be so.

One-night stands then aren`t prostitution. The other side of course derives material benefit. It`s a lopsided transaction in a way. Is that why it`s forbidden? Of course, the sex part has a lot to do with it because massage therapy is not usually outlawed. There too one person derives pleasure and the other person derives an income and suffers the pain involved.

Why is prostitution outlawed in my city while no one would even dream of outlawing one-night stands? Questions, questions...

Rsaxean #89 you ask ``what does his apology have to do with my post??...you claim you recognize that my post was referring to his original post, not the apology`` I thought I already made that clear in my post #72 when I wrote: ``I realized that you were posting to the original one. But so what? My point is still valid - anything positive coming from a Pakistani (an apology from urstruly in this case) or about Pakistan causes you and your kind to develop stomach ulcers. `` If this was the first post you had written to chowk, or if your past posts had demonstrated some level of understanding and respect for Pakistan and Pakistanis (or Pukistanis, which I understand is the name in your language), I would have let it go. But the fact is that what I said was consistent with your past pattern of posts, and the fact that what you wrote was in response to this and not that is a legalistic argument, and not one based on common sense.

Reply RSax # 71

``who is to define social legitimacy?...and how are we to define it?...and for which society?...``

Society is not a monolith - so I suppose social legitimacy is bestowed (!) by group consensus on a particular issue. Dif groups having different consensuses (consensi???) - I suppose it depends on how much power each group has to affect other people in society, and what those groups which have this power believe.

``ultimately, what consenting adults choose to do, if it does not directly influence others, is not something that anyone has a right to judge...but it takes a highly mature, educated (not in religion and dogma!), and developed society for something like this to work...dutch society is one example where it does...``

Yes - but what Dutch society also does is give poor women a lot of options. For this reason you`ll find that a high proportion sex workers in many developed countries are themselves from poor countries. Not contradicting your point at all, but saying that all the maturity and good working conditions and legal recognition that prostitutes get in the Netherlands still doesn`t make it a pleasant job or one which many Dutch women take up if they have other options.

re: TAhmed

{{ Rsaxena #80 it was not his original post that I said was positive, but the fact that he apologized for it. And I said that quite explicitly. }}

what does his apology have to do with my post??...you claim you recognize that my post was referring to his original post, not the apology, yet you get your knickers in a knot, spewing some nonsense on about my `frustration when pakis do something positive`...just accidently put your foot in your mouth this time?...

Rsaxena #80 it was not his original post that I said was positive, but the fact that he apologized for it. And I said that quite explicitly.

saminashah #80 You explained that very well and I agree 100% and dont need to add anything more. But...let me add a bit more in any case :-)... No poster needs another one to defend him or her on chowk since we are all perfectly capable of writing our own posts, and in any case all we have on chowk are words. It is certain basic rules of the game that are designed to promote healthy and open discussion on chowk that we need to bring to people`s attention when they slip up as urstruly did (until he realized his mistake and apologized). That is all I was trying to do.

Starbuck #68 Valid point. And certainly there are women who dont mind exploiting the male weakness of powerful or rich men to their advantage and such women get the notoreity they deserve. But for every Christine Keeler or Lewinsky there are a few thousand teenaged girls who are forced by poverty or other circumstances to abandon their human dignity to cater to the pleasures of men. Let us not paint the latter with the same brush one applies to the former.

soundmeister #69 you write ``And BTW tahmedsaab, I don`t think anyone should feel insulted at being called a ``bhangee`` (sweeper)...``

That is not what I wrote - I wrote that one can call for better conditions for sweepers without aspiring to be one. It is not an insult to be a sweeper, but given the chance to switch to the type of jobs available to most people on chowk (e.g.) I think the sweeper would switch in a second. One cannot get replace jobs like those of sweepers, domestic servants, and - yes - prostitutes (at least not overnight), but one can do what one can to make life a little easier on those less fortunate. That is the original point saminashah was making, and I dont think we need to find defects in what was said.

PS: Thanks for the ``gentleman jouster`` comment - now all I have to do is try and live up to it. :-)

Ali2 #79 you write ``Tahmed is a buck toothed senile old man who secretly wishes he is not a Pakistani.``

Loved that one. I have been called many things, but this is a first. :-)

Re Tahmed (#76):

Well said Sahib … I laughed out as I read your comment. I had a lingering feeling that my comment leaves room for devious interpretations … esp. if the second half is dubiously omitted. The devil is in the details.

But in all honesty … there is really nothing that one can learn from mullahs … except complete disregard for human dignity. On the other hand … a lot about humanity and the dark side of life can be learned from the downtrodden of our societies. It is these who are dearer to Allah than the rest of us.

There is a documentary about the red-light districts in India that I watched a few years ago … “Courtesans of Bombay”. The film is in English and provided an account of the present day “naach gaana” culture in old parts of town … women entertaining men with songs and dances, and more, musicians who competed fiercely to earn a livlihood, men who frequented these places, the neighborhood where they lived ... I found it to be very well done and quite thought provoking.

Anyway … Eid Mubarak to all. Time to rejoice and time to reflect.

Regards,

Asad

Very moving, very touching.

`They Did Not Take My Spirit`

A statement from Danny Pearl`s widow.

BY MARIANE PEARL

Friday, February 22, 2002 3:00 p.m. EST

From the bottom of my heart, I would like to express my gratitude to all of the people throughout the world who have given Danny and me support and encouragement.

The messages I have received from the five continents have shown me that a lot of you who don`t even know Danny personally have come to understand him as a man. Not a hero, not a spy, but an ordinary man and great journalist who has traveled the world to reveal facts and seek the truth--a value for him as sacred as freedom itself.

Danny`s principles were steadfast: He never accepted an opinion at face value nor submitted to those who tried to silence or pressure him, regardless of their power or nationality. All of this can be seen in the work he has produced over the last 12 years as a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. A video has been produced of him forced to read a statement and then showing him dead and stabbed in the most cruel and cowardly manner.

From this act of barbarism, terrorists expect all of us to bow our heads and retreat as victims forever threatened by their ruthlessness. What terrorists forget is that they may seize the life of an innocent man or the lives of many innocent people as they did on Sept. 11, but they cannot claim the spirit or faith of individual human beings.

The terrorists who say they killed my husband may have taken his life, but they did not take his spirit. Danny is my life. They may have taken my life, but they did not take my spirit.

I promise you that the terrorists did not defeat my husband no matter what they did to him, nor did they succeed in seizing his dignity or value as a human being. As his wife, I feel proud of Danny. I trust that our struggle will ultimately serve the greater purpose of resisting those evil people casting a shadow upon our world. This responsibility rests with each one of us no matter our age, our gender, our nationality, our religion. No individual alone will be able to fight terrorism. No state alone will be able to wage this battle. We need to overcome cultural and religious differences, motivating our governments to work hand in hand with each other, perhaps in an unprecedented way.

I think we are now all aware that terror is not a problem facing one country alone, not Pakistan, not the United States. It is the world-wide responsibility of governments and we as journalists, professionals of all kinds and human beings--mothers and fathers, daughters and sons. We are all going to need courage and commitment. Let us inspire each other to goodness.

Revenge would be easy, but it is far more valuable in my opinion to address this problem of terrorism with enough honesty to question our own responsibility as nations and as individuals for the rise of terrorism. My own courage arises from two facts. One is that throughout this ordeal I have been surrounded by people of amazing value. This helps me trust that humanism ultimately will prevail. My other hope now--in my seventh month of pregnancy--is that I will be able to tell our son that his father carried the flag to end terrorism, raising an unprecedented demand among people from all countries not for revenge but for the values we all share: love, compassion, friendship and citizenship far transcending the so-called clash of civilizations.

SM,

1. I don`t think Tahmed was defending me, a female interactor, as much as pointing out to Urstruly why his posts were completely inappropriate given his previous protests against gender-specific sexually oriented comments. A female Indian interactor, quite intelligent, was called a ``transvestite``, because her opinion was different than said interactor`s. Tahmed, btw, has brought a few matters to my attention, re: some of my insensitive comments.

2. It would be great progress on Chowk for a female interactor to be able to bring up progressive, social reform minded ideas and not be asked what her rate was? However you interact with your girl/guy friends, I`m sure if a female friend offered her opinion on prostitution, youre response wouldn`t be, ``Well, you are a hooker!``

3. Whatever the semantics of the post in question were, any confusion could have been easily clarified with a few calm questions. That was exactly the point.

re: Tahmed

{{Rsaxena #66 I realized that you were posting to the original one. But so what? My point is still valid - anything positive coming from a Pakistani}}

what are you saying then? that his original post was some `positive` coming from a pakistani?...don`t be a silly fool.

{{ As for these kicks on the behind that you would like to deliver to me, such ``hawai fire`` are easily delivered by any pipsqeak on chowk. Theh, however, are an indication of weakness, not strength. In real life you would probably think twice before issuing such threats to me }}

ummm genius, it is not a threat, more an offer to help you swallow the double dose of chill pills you are in need of....fire up them neurons for a change...

{particularly if you are size and physical condition I have seen of most people from your part of India}

and what part of india might i be from?...look, granted you are no less than Hulk Hogan, but that`s no reason to go berserk and make silly assumptions, is it?