Taboo: The Hidden Culture of a Red Light Area (Review)

Reply Urstruly #32:

``I think you should read what Saminashah has written, again. She suggests that in an ``ideal society`` the prostitution should be an acceptable norm because it satisfies the demand-supply chain.``

## I did read it again, and you`re right. I guess last time I started off with YOUR post inquiring what her hourly rate was or some such, and I guess I got pissed off by it, esp. when I read Samina`s injured-innocence/dignity-intact response :))

``I haven’t called anyone names-you should read my post with a icey water bucket thrown on your head.``

## Why on earth would I wanna do that :((? BTW, you`re right.... by Samina`s defn, you haven`t called anyone ``names``.... and Samina, if you`re reading this, be sure to re-examine your own words and be sure of what you actually feel and think, as opposed to what you have been conditioned to believe is right....

Having said that... I still think that in a ``real society``, most people who sell their bodies for a living are in the business if you will because they have simply nothing else to live on.... it`s not like someone offered them the option of a safe, comfortable way to live, and they are doing it to spite society. Urstruly, these things need to be looked at in the right perspective, and by that I mean not just as a religious person, or a pragmatic one, but a thinking, responsible individual.... I have no sympathy for someone like Heidi Fleiss or those hi-society callgirls who claim they ``have to`` to maintain appearances.... bloody hell, take a typewriting job for all I care....

AND LEAVE MY DAUGHTER OUTTA THIS.... or was it a subtle slight coz I included all your other close relatives in MY post? ;)

Later...

Sound

Getting away from the “I am so clever and well read that none of you senile pinkos can understand me” vs “Nothing worth understanding there, you are a low class imbecile with the brains and manners of a flatulent sow” debate (no offence to anyone, and I’m not suggesting that any of you stop) just a few general questions:

1 Is there any country and society today where prostitution does not occur? (I think not, but maybe?)

2 Is there any correlation between social condemnation of prostitution and the occurrence of prostitution? That is to say, is there proportionally less prostitution in societies where prostitution is illegal and strongly condemned than in societies where it is legal? (I can’t think of any societies where it is not condemned in some manner, paranoid fantasies notwithstanding.)

3 Where it is illegal, is everybody involved with prostitution treated equally by the law and society? (Both the client and the prostitute are equally involved in each occurrence of prostitution. If either of them are missing, prostitution cannot take place.) What is the justification given if treatment is not equal? What would the outcome of equal treatment be?

4 Just in terms of human suffering, who suffers more – prostitutes or their clients? Is this suffering increased or decreased by banning prostitution? (If something is illegal it cannot be regulated.)

5 Is the approach of “Harm Reduction” appropriately applicable to prostitution?

[Harm Reduction boils down to acknowledging that a proportion of the population will engage in (at least potentially) antisocial behaviour, and setting systems in place which minimise the harm these people do to themselves and others. An example of Harm Reduction is the law that airplane flights in the US be non-smoking. Smokers can smoke in their own space, or in certain public spaces, but cannot smoke in those public spaces where there behaviour has a definite health impact on others. More controversially, another Harm Reduction strategy is the UK (still, I believe) National Health providing prescription heroin to some hardened addicts, thereby limiting their impact on society in terms of crime and also protecting them from dying due to ingestion of random additives included in their drugs. The objective of a Harm Reduction strategy is twofold: (1) to limit the impact of an individual’s (or group’s) antisocial behaviour on the rest of society and (2) to give the person engaged in antisocial behaviour a chance to survive it, and perhaps therefore come through it and get on with productive lives at a later date. (In the example I gave re: heroin prescription, the impacte were found to include: keeping addicts involved in the legal work force, and thereby raising the chance of their being able to live normal lives after they quit their addiction; reduced violent crime against weaker sections of society, such as old people, by addicts to feed their addiction; reduced family break ups, which affected the children of addicts. The system also facilitates getting information on quitting drugs to addicts.) Re: prostitution I think that both of these approaches could be valid. Note: the second point could well involve a moral (or religious) dimension.]

So you know where I’m coming from, here are my assumptions: The people who suffer most from prostitution are prostitutes. I do not see prostitution as something that people generally choose if they have options – the driver is generally economic deprivation (in the developed countries often exacerbated by addiction). A serious problem in the subcontinent (and elsewhere) is involuntary prostitution, involving some sort of slavery, often of minors. The problems associated with prostitution are exacerbated by making it illegal – thereby beyond the reach of regulation – and by deeming prostitutes criminals – thereby making it difficult for them to ask for help without opening themselves up to prosecution. Importantly: prostitution should not be an irrevocable decision – people should be helped to survive it and to move on to do other things with their lives if they want to. (Harm Reduction is a major way to do this.) I believe that this is a decision that has to be made by each individual if it is going to be a lasting one. I do not believe society should ever give up on people, although it should be realistic about them. Aap ke shubh vichaar?

I LOVE both of you! Jug jug jeeyo aap dono log :)

Ofcourse, I am familiar with all that. You are talking to a guy who was (and to a great extent remains) a Hindi poetry nut, who given a chance will rather listen to hearty, rousing Alhaa, or enchanting rasia, or kajri, or phag than any thing else. After all, UP was the place that created the famous Bharat Natya Shastra, and Lucknow is the proud home of Bhatkhande School of Music and Dance (located just a few kilometers from my house)! It is the place of Swami Haridas ji (Tansen`s guru), of Tulsi and Sur, of Begum Akhtar, Birju Maharaj, Bismillah Khan, Akbar Ali Khan, Siddeshwari Devi, Hari Prasad Chaurasia....endless...endless list of most venerable names! :)

My lament wasn`t against UP`s cultural heritage. I was bemoaning the rather blase attitude I sometimes find amongst people there these days(may be amongst the people I know) toward music and dance. That is why it was so refreshing to visit Karnata, Tamil Nadu, and ofcourse West Bengal.

tahmad321

Ok, I tried to be nice with you but not only that you are a meanspirited senile (as was proved last time)but you are baywaqoof gaddha as well. But let me be nice with you one more time, may be I am wrong-no harm double checking.

Let me ease some of your pain and ask you to scroll your screen up. Go right at the top and see the title of this article. You see the word ``Taboo`` there? Do you? So that is the topic of discussion here. We are discussing a taboo here. And whenever taboos are discussed the blood pressures are supposed to sky rocket; heat is supposed to get on; insults are perceived; and insults are hurled; personal convictions do come under scrutiny; and that is the reason a taboo is a taboo and Kashmir is kashmir.

So if you are uncomfortable in a discourse over a taboo then you can excuse your tail from under our feet and go somewhere where you are comfortable.

And do not give me this harassment and shitt tripe-in case you haven`t noticed, SameerJB has made a mockery of the belief system of 1.2 billion people of this planet. I didnt see you giving him a lecture on his upbringing and his character. tahmad321 I am sorry to say that, but you ARE mean, stupid and senile. And that is an ugly combination.

Re Prem #28 ``You are right. In that damn state of mine, UP, most folks consider singing/dancing to be infra dig.``

Umm, I am not sure about that cos I know too many people from that ``damn state`` who have had training in both classical music and dance.

Kathak is one dance form which has evolved here. It originated in the temple, where It was used as pantomime to accompany the recitation of the Kathaks, the story-tellers who recounted tales from Hindu mythology. The Mughal Emperors patronised it and the dancers they imported from Persia and elsewhere, were Influenced by Kathak, and, in, turn, influenced it.

True in Southern India this heritage goes back far longer than in the other parts of India, but remember when you talk about South India, you are lumping number of different states together, whereas each state has its own unique dance tradition.

I am also not sure if you have considered folk music & dance here which is a part of rural life all over India e.g. Kajri & Jhoola in UP. What is ``Braj ki Raslila`` if not another expression of music.

I could carry on with more details here but suffice to say there is a rich musical & dance tradition in Uttar Pradesh which is fortunately still being carried on. As additudes change and with parents desiring that their children learn the performing arts, more people are shedding the bias in their minds towards ``Naachnewali/Gaanewali``.

-

Subroto

Interesting discussions.

Animals, truly have strange sexual behavior. The Sea Lions with their harems, the lead male sea lion is technically called a BeachMaster (what a term).

The lions who kill the young of the lioness sired by another lion, so as to get the lioness to mate again. The lioness mourn their young`s death for a day and then the primal urge takes over and she accepts the advances of the killer lion.

Humans as in everything else, take the cake here too. The amount of variations on possible sexual roles and relationaships practiced around the world and in history by humans boggles the mind.

There`s this native Amazonian tribe in which the older females of the village initiate young men on how to `perform` well. Promiscuity is/was quite rampant and accepted in some native american tribes. In one north amercian native tribe, visitors were provided with an escort to provide all services for the duration of their stay. In Amazon (Amazonian tribes are notoriously promiscuous), the men when returning from a hunt, bang their utensils and shout their arrival.. giving their significant other`s possible lover a chance to leave undetected. Orgies are/were a regular function and in a documentary, a woman complained that her husband had been influenced by the `new` ways and had started becoming jealous of her many relationships, much to her chagrin.

And then we have the other side of the spectrum, the honor killings, the stoning to death of adulterers, etc.

What a world we live in. It takes all types to make it so interesting.

Veeresh:``ps: Our Antarctic expeditions are better than yours, in fact, you don`t have them!``

Me: But did you know we send our guys with the Chinese expeditions. Hah, and their`s are bigger and better than yours :)

Sorry, but I couldn`t resist.

urstruly #39 You say you refuse to comments since my posts are not worth your time. Your capacity for false excuses seems unlimited. The fact is that in my post below your disgraceful sexual harassment of a female chowk poster is clearly exposed, and you cannot lie and say you did not write something that is there for all to see.

In your earlier post, you had even referred to the daughter of this female poster in the same filthy way!!! this has to be a new low on chowk, which is already being pulled into the gutters thanks to the lack of attention by the Chowk Moderator. And you are the father of a daughter yourself!! maybe you should have your wife read the filth you have written to this female poster on chowk so she better understands the kind of individual you are (I suspect she already knows that). You can post all the learned stuff on chowk that you like, and you can make all the excuses you like, but none of these can hide the filth that is in your mind.

(And I have already told you not to try the Panjabi line with me - the fact that you are a Panjabi doesnt mean a thing to me. )

Dear Vareesh

thank you for your lecture on nature and stuff. My question is still that if you are comfortable doing that? See my response to soundmeister. How would you respond.

tahmad

and you still think that you can have the field day with me. right? that is amazing. banday noo dheet hona chaheeda eh, sharam aani jaani shay way.

I think I have dealt with you good once, yeh bazoo mairay aazmay hoay hain. I think you are not worth my time.

Urstruly #32 First, let me congratulate you on your study of apes on TV. Learning the social and sexual habits of monkeys will no doubt be a step up from the household you, judging from your posts, grew up in.

Second, on your sexually laced and insulting remarks you make about a female chowk poster. Your excuse for this harassment on the grounds that she wrote that prostitution should be treated as a profession. Your excuse is worthless, for the following reason: one can argue for the proper treatment of street sweepers in Pakistan without aspiring to become one. Read this last sentence a couple of times since it will have difficulty getting into your head.

Your excuse being exposed as being without legs, where does that leave you? a two-bit scumbag who shamelessly insults women and routinely brings up sexually-laced material on the false pretexts.

Dear urstruly . . . on prostitution, this is my take:-

a) It is not restricted only to males or females in customer/supplier of sex mode, but also extends to beyond sex. Right?

b) In some sections of society, surely some parents are hoping against hope that their daughters make it good as courtesans, geishas, strip-tease artistes, belly dancers, prostitutes, whatever. Right?

c) It is therefore as much a part of nature as is, say, a dog performing fellatio on himself. Right?

So with all respect to much of what you say, why are you getting so upset with just another form of nature? I mean, even female penguins are known to actually trade sex to help collect rocks (one small rock at a time, hoarded by the male penguins) to help build their nests, and that is true, not a funny one. India sends expeditions to the Antarctic and I was associated with a few.

warm regards,

Veeresh

ps: Our Antarctic expeditions are better than yours, in fact, you don`t have them!

re : prem #28

i know a lot of girls who learned classical singing in UP including my Mum and Mausis and they were all into writing kavitas too, they were from the subhadra kumari chauhan generation

bundele harbolon ke munh hamne suni kahani thi,

khoob ladi mardani voh to jhansi wali rani thi

ring a bell ?

but except for a few people who learnt kathak dancing was not encouraged ... it is changing in this generation though

some of my best memories are Mr. Krishnans bharat natiyam dance class in APS which ended when i ending up in boarding school in lovely meerut with the nuns who taught us ballroom dancing !

i had some paki friends over to dinner with my college friend from Miranda and her husband, and the girl was simply amazed to hear about my friends dance school in NOIDA where she taught hoards of kids as young as 3 years bharat natiyam - do they not have any dance schools in pakistan for aache ghar ke kids ?

MINOS SANS MERCY

Those of you who have read Dante`s Divine Comedy, specifically, the Inferno, must know who the Minos was. But before I go on telling you, again, who the Minos was, let me tell you the difference between a seducer (used the word seducer because Dante counts both men and women in this category) and a prostitute. Apparently, there is no difference because every prostitute seduces to gain what she wants but not every seductress is a prostitute. There lies this delicate difference. A prostitute may seduce to fill the empty stomach of hers and her children but a seductress seduces partly because of lust and partly to get more than what she already has. She may have a full stomach and yet she seduces.

Before I tell you about Minos, I want to tell you about Paolo and Francesca as well. They are two adulterers condemned in Dante`s Inferno for their adultery. They are condemned to an interesting yet most horrible punishment. They are stuck in mid-coitus and can`t separate. They are condemned to making tasteless love for eternity. In their life all they wanted was to be together and in afterlife all they want is to get separated.

Before I tell you about Minos, let me tell you about Dante`s Inferno as well. Dante has divided hell into nine circles; with the first circle where punishments are least severe and then the ninth circle where the punishments are most severe; and here lies the Dark Angel the Satan at the bottom of ninth circle called Abyss.

It is interesting to note that Dante has envisioned Paolo and Francesca in the third circle of hell, whereas he envisions seducers and whores in the Ninth circle near the Satan`s headquarters. Interesting isn`t it. Now keep one thing in mind that the women he has described as whores are actually seductresses who seduce to satisfy their lust. In other words there is no prostitute in Dante`s hell. And there is a reason for that. And the reason is Minos.

Now Minos is actually a judge, a half god, probably son of Zeus, who is revered for his justice and fairness. He resides in the second circle of hell. When sinners are brought before him, he assigns them to the proper circle with the punishment, which fits their crime. Sometimes I wonder, it must be Minos who sends prostitutes back from hell to the paradiso because in his good judgement he thinks that since prostitutes have suffered enough in this life they need not suffer in the afterlife.

But sometimes, I think, and it gripes my heart to think that, actually we are the Minos of this world. And unlike the just Minos of the other world we are as unjust as we can be. We as the society are the Minos who condemn the weakest of us all to the lowest abyss of this world-into the prostitution. Sometimes I think of prostitutes as the invalids who are born with one less limb or without sense of sight. Sometimes I think of prostitutes as the invalids who were not born invalid but actually we had broken their limbs just like kharkaars who break the limbs of little children and make them beg for the alms. Sometimes I feel ashamed as to how we treat the invalids of the society. Sometimes I feel ashamed that how unjust we are as people, the people without mercy. The Minos the judges with no mercy. Sometimes I feel ashamed when I see that how we fail to cure a curable disease. Sometimes I feel ashamed to see people when they get hurt to do everything that they can to cure a limb that gets broken or get bruised. But as a society, instead of curing this gangreneous limb we start hating it. We cut it off. We shun it. We abhor it. But we don’t cure it. It means that we the humans have failed ourselves to form a society without illness, without disease, and without hate.

As a society we the humans have failed. It is shameful. But what is more shameful is not that we cannot cure a disease but we start accepting the disease; we start looking the other way at the disease; we start thinking about generating tax dollars from the diseased; we show the weak that the way to survive is to get the disease; get a shower in the stench and puss of the disease. And that is when I feel myself being with the seducers in the Ninth circle, eating my excrement; right near the Satan`s headquarter. Some Minos we are.

Hobbyty

Have I accounted for all the scum now?

SameerJB

Judging by your response, I think my kick has hit quite hard where I intended it to i.e. right at the ``progressive`` testicles.

When you cool down try enjoying this joke.

Once a man and a woman started arguing as to who has more tolerance for pain, a man or a woman. The woman starts whinning about the pains during childbirth and blah blah blah......the man keeps listening to her patiently and when she finishes ask her just one question ``kadhi tattiaN tay lut khaadi eh?``

(tr:have you ever got kicked at the testicles?)

Soundmeister

I think you should read what Saminashah has written, again. She suggests that in an ``ideal society`` the prostitution should be an acceptable norm because it satisfies the demand-supply chain. She in no less words is suggesting that the prostitution should be a pensionable job like other professions. In her view the practice of ``prostitution`` is not bad but the lack of its status as an accepted profession is.

So I tested her theory, she seriously minds doing what she suggests to others. I haven’t called anyone names-you should read my post with a icey water bucket thrown on your head. Once you do that imagine yourself and your husband sitting in Saminashah`s drawing room with Saminashah and her husband. Their little girl in her beautiful voice has just sung the ``mary had a little lamb`` and ``yankee doodle`` for you; and now she has just begun singing ``Ba ba blacksheep, have you any wool``; when she finishes you can`t help but peck her rosey cheek. And then you ask her the common question that we all ask little kids ``what are you gonna be when you grow up?``. The little kid replies ``I wanna be a doctor``. Saminashah looks at her daughter admonishingly and interrupts with a laughter ``Oh no we want her to be a prostitute when she grows up. We have been looking all around for the best of those hooker-making schools. We hope that she becomes the best of hookers and bring a good name to the family``.

So my question to Saminashah was that in an ``ideal society`` will she do that? And judging by her response I don’t think so; may be she has best of the intentions for your daughter, Soundmiester.