Taboo: The Hidden Culture of a Red Light Area (Review)

StarBuck #93 Actually, I think some christian priests manage to spice up their life anyway, judging from recent news.

Reply Soysauce # 92

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy am I the preferred point of contact for ruminations on prostitution and one night stands???????

Khair, now that I’m here…

“Why is prostitution outlawed in my city while no one would even dream of outlawing one-night stands? Questions, questions...”

IMO a combo of reasons:

1 Because the police can exert some control over prostitution – they would be utterly unable to control one night stands.

2 Not so long ago adultery and fornication WAS illegal and punishable in the way prostitution (and homosexuality) still are in some places today. The laws may still be on the books…so one night stand artists may indeed be outlaws of some sort. (V John Rechy.)

[Depending where you live, you’d be surprised at what is against the law. In Georgia (still? And some other states) sodomy is against the law. Every heard of somebody being arrested for sodomy in Georgia? In fact, can you define sodomy as it is understood by the state of Georgia? (I can’t remember the definition, but I do remember being surprised when I read it in an article.) Similarly in Tasmania. Fortunately two places one would probably avoid.]

Why outlaw this stuff? Because successful regulation is control.

3 Our first instinct in dealing with a social evil is to outlaw it and arrest people who engage in it. The Double Standard is alive and well here, btw. Some would say that such laws punish women who do not fit into the sati-savitri box.

4 Any illegal activity is vulnerable to corrupt officials. Payola galore for cops etc. This is also, btw, why marijuana (and other drugs) remain utterly illegal. Ever met a cop who really wanted to reduce the number of laws people can be “gotten” under?

5 Even if the police have no intention of prosecuting anyone under a law, sometimes those who speak for the moral majority like having it on the books – to “send a message”. Unfortunately this criminalises people, putting them at the mercy of the “underworld” and cutting them off from recourse if they are mistreated.

TAHMED #85

Thank you for acknowldging my post #68

Prostituion like any phenomenon cannot have only one cause .There is man ,there are some WILLING women ,then there are some exploted women so on & so forth.

It is just as wrong for me to paint all with the same brush ,i admit ,i never tried to do that either .Yet as someone speakng against the modern liberalism said everything cannot be left for the inhuman supply demand forceses of market ...or on the Human freedom of choice to ``do`` whatever ones ``ID`` desires.Freedom without boundaries is chaos & anarchy .

Here is a suggestionfrom christian pious man,if not friom MUllah which turns you off....

http://headlines.sify.com/646news3.html

Priest urges wives to spice up sex

Rome, Feb 23So you thought priests are only meant to read out from religious texts and give you a sermon or two? Think again.An Italian priest has told wives to give their husbands more exciting sex to stop them resorting to prostitutes.According to Father Oreste Benzi many married men go to prostitutes because their love life has become boring.Father Benzi leads a national charity which is dedicated to helping prostitutes give up sex work and find new lives.``Statistics say that sex gets boring between married people and that is why men look for prostitutes for a good go,`` he told Tgcom Web site.``Four out of 10 Italian couples separate or divorce sooner or later. One way to avoid that would be for married woman to spice up the sexual relationship with their husbands.``This will discourage men from going with prostitutes, and eventually help prostitutes get rid of their jobs, which they are often forced to do by circumstances.``Now, that`s some advice, eh!

#64 ZAT

Thanks for putting up with me, but I have been trying to figure out how prostitution differs from any other activity involving consenting adults in that the society tries hard to ban it. I have confirmed bachelor-type friends who aver that marriage is itself a glorified form of prostitution. Guess you caught my insinuations there. Perhaps what sets prostitution apart is that only one person derives pleasure from that activity and knows beforehand that it would be so.

One-night stands then aren`t prostitution. The other side of course derives material benefit. It`s a lopsided transaction in a way. Is that why it`s forbidden? Of course, the sex part has a lot to do with it because massage therapy is not usually outlawed. There too one person derives pleasure and the other person derives an income and suffers the pain involved.

Why is prostitution outlawed in my city while no one would even dream of outlawing one-night stands? Questions, questions...

Rsaxean #89 you ask ``what does his apology have to do with my post??...you claim you recognize that my post was referring to his original post, not the apology`` I thought I already made that clear in my post #72 when I wrote: ``I realized that you were posting to the original one. But so what? My point is still valid - anything positive coming from a Pakistani (an apology from urstruly in this case) or about Pakistan causes you and your kind to develop stomach ulcers. `` If this was the first post you had written to chowk, or if your past posts had demonstrated some level of understanding and respect for Pakistan and Pakistanis (or Pukistanis, which I understand is the name in your language), I would have let it go. But the fact is that what I said was consistent with your past pattern of posts, and the fact that what you wrote was in response to this and not that is a legalistic argument, and not one based on common sense.

Reply RSax # 71

``who is to define social legitimacy?...and how are we to define it?...and for which society?...``

Society is not a monolith - so I suppose social legitimacy is bestowed (!) by group consensus on a particular issue. Dif groups having different consensuses (consensi???) - I suppose it depends on how much power each group has to affect other people in society, and what those groups which have this power believe.

``ultimately, what consenting adults choose to do, if it does not directly influence others, is not something that anyone has a right to judge...but it takes a highly mature, educated (not in religion and dogma!), and developed society for something like this to work...dutch society is one example where it does...``

Yes - but what Dutch society also does is give poor women a lot of options. For this reason you`ll find that a high proportion sex workers in many developed countries are themselves from poor countries. Not contradicting your point at all, but saying that all the maturity and good working conditions and legal recognition that prostitutes get in the Netherlands still doesn`t make it a pleasant job or one which many Dutch women take up if they have other options.

re: TAhmed

{{ Rsaxena #80 it was not his original post that I said was positive, but the fact that he apologized for it. And I said that quite explicitly. }}

what does his apology have to do with my post??...you claim you recognize that my post was referring to his original post, not the apology, yet you get your knickers in a knot, spewing some nonsense on about my `frustration when pakis do something positive`...just accidently put your foot in your mouth this time?...

Rsaxena #80 it was not his original post that I said was positive, but the fact that he apologized for it. And I said that quite explicitly.

saminashah #80 You explained that very well and I agree 100% and dont need to add anything more. But...let me add a bit more in any case :-)... No poster needs another one to defend him or her on chowk since we are all perfectly capable of writing our own posts, and in any case all we have on chowk are words. It is certain basic rules of the game that are designed to promote healthy and open discussion on chowk that we need to bring to people`s attention when they slip up as urstruly did (until he realized his mistake and apologized). That is all I was trying to do.

Starbuck #68 Valid point. And certainly there are women who dont mind exploiting the male weakness of powerful or rich men to their advantage and such women get the notoreity they deserve. But for every Christine Keeler or Lewinsky there are a few thousand teenaged girls who are forced by poverty or other circumstances to abandon their human dignity to cater to the pleasures of men. Let us not paint the latter with the same brush one applies to the former.

soundmeister #69 you write ``And BTW tahmedsaab, I don`t think anyone should feel insulted at being called a ``bhangee`` (sweeper)...``

That is not what I wrote - I wrote that one can call for better conditions for sweepers without aspiring to be one. It is not an insult to be a sweeper, but given the chance to switch to the type of jobs available to most people on chowk (e.g.) I think the sweeper would switch in a second. One cannot get replace jobs like those of sweepers, domestic servants, and - yes - prostitutes (at least not overnight), but one can do what one can to make life a little easier on those less fortunate. That is the original point saminashah was making, and I dont think we need to find defects in what was said.

PS: Thanks for the ``gentleman jouster`` comment - now all I have to do is try and live up to it. :-)

Ali2 #79 you write ``Tahmed is a buck toothed senile old man who secretly wishes he is not a Pakistani.``

Loved that one. I have been called many things, but this is a first. :-)

Re Tahmed (#76):

Well said Sahib … I laughed out as I read your comment. I had a lingering feeling that my comment leaves room for devious interpretations … esp. if the second half is dubiously omitted. The devil is in the details.

But in all honesty … there is really nothing that one can learn from mullahs … except complete disregard for human dignity. On the other hand … a lot about humanity and the dark side of life can be learned from the downtrodden of our societies. It is these who are dearer to Allah than the rest of us.

There is a documentary about the red-light districts in India that I watched a few years ago … “Courtesans of Bombay”. The film is in English and provided an account of the present day “naach gaana” culture in old parts of town … women entertaining men with songs and dances, and more, musicians who competed fiercely to earn a livlihood, men who frequented these places, the neighborhood where they lived ... I found it to be very well done and quite thought provoking.

Anyway … Eid Mubarak to all. Time to rejoice and time to reflect.

Regards,

Asad

Very moving, very touching.

`They Did Not Take My Spirit`

A statement from Danny Pearl`s widow.

BY MARIANE PEARL

Friday, February 22, 2002 3:00 p.m. EST

From the bottom of my heart, I would like to express my gratitude to all of the people throughout the world who have given Danny and me support and encouragement.

The messages I have received from the five continents have shown me that a lot of you who don`t even know Danny personally have come to understand him as a man. Not a hero, not a spy, but an ordinary man and great journalist who has traveled the world to reveal facts and seek the truth--a value for him as sacred as freedom itself.

Danny`s principles were steadfast: He never accepted an opinion at face value nor submitted to those who tried to silence or pressure him, regardless of their power or nationality. All of this can be seen in the work he has produced over the last 12 years as a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. A video has been produced of him forced to read a statement and then showing him dead and stabbed in the most cruel and cowardly manner.

From this act of barbarism, terrorists expect all of us to bow our heads and retreat as victims forever threatened by their ruthlessness. What terrorists forget is that they may seize the life of an innocent man or the lives of many innocent people as they did on Sept. 11, but they cannot claim the spirit or faith of individual human beings.

The terrorists who say they killed my husband may have taken his life, but they did not take his spirit. Danny is my life. They may have taken my life, but they did not take my spirit.

I promise you that the terrorists did not defeat my husband no matter what they did to him, nor did they succeed in seizing his dignity or value as a human being. As his wife, I feel proud of Danny. I trust that our struggle will ultimately serve the greater purpose of resisting those evil people casting a shadow upon our world. This responsibility rests with each one of us no matter our age, our gender, our nationality, our religion. No individual alone will be able to fight terrorism. No state alone will be able to wage this battle. We need to overcome cultural and religious differences, motivating our governments to work hand in hand with each other, perhaps in an unprecedented way.

I think we are now all aware that terror is not a problem facing one country alone, not Pakistan, not the United States. It is the world-wide responsibility of governments and we as journalists, professionals of all kinds and human beings--mothers and fathers, daughters and sons. We are all going to need courage and commitment. Let us inspire each other to goodness.

Revenge would be easy, but it is far more valuable in my opinion to address this problem of terrorism with enough honesty to question our own responsibility as nations and as individuals for the rise of terrorism. My own courage arises from two facts. One is that throughout this ordeal I have been surrounded by people of amazing value. This helps me trust that humanism ultimately will prevail. My other hope now--in my seventh month of pregnancy--is that I will be able to tell our son that his father carried the flag to end terrorism, raising an unprecedented demand among people from all countries not for revenge but for the values we all share: love, compassion, friendship and citizenship far transcending the so-called clash of civilizations.

SM,

1. I don`t think Tahmed was defending me, a female interactor, as much as pointing out to Urstruly why his posts were completely inappropriate given his previous protests against gender-specific sexually oriented comments. A female Indian interactor, quite intelligent, was called a ``transvestite``, because her opinion was different than said interactor`s. Tahmed, btw, has brought a few matters to my attention, re: some of my insensitive comments.

2. It would be great progress on Chowk for a female interactor to be able to bring up progressive, social reform minded ideas and not be asked what her rate was? However you interact with your girl/guy friends, I`m sure if a female friend offered her opinion on prostitution, youre response wouldn`t be, ``Well, you are a hooker!``

3. Whatever the semantics of the post in question were, any confusion could have been easily clarified with a few calm questions. That was exactly the point.

re: Tahmed

{{Rsaxena #66 I realized that you were posting to the original one. But so what? My point is still valid - anything positive coming from a Pakistani}}

what are you saying then? that his original post was some `positive` coming from a pakistani?...don`t be a silly fool.

{{ As for these kicks on the behind that you would like to deliver to me, such ``hawai fire`` are easily delivered by any pipsqeak on chowk. Theh, however, are an indication of weakness, not strength. In real life you would probably think twice before issuing such threats to me }}

ummm genius, it is not a threat, more an offer to help you swallow the double dose of chill pills you are in need of....fire up them neurons for a change...

{particularly if you are size and physical condition I have seen of most people from your part of India}

and what part of india might i be from?...look, granted you are no less than Hulk Hogan, but that`s no reason to go berserk and make silly assumptions, is it?

sattar2 #59 you write ``I concur with hamidm Sahib and would rather be with prostitutes, pimps, and drug pushers ``. It all depends on what activities you seek to engage in with them, sattar sahib.

:-).

Ali1: So we have another fake on chowk. The real ali1 is more toilet-oriented and much more smart than you. The 12-head disease seems to be catching on chowk.

As for your comments about me: I am not running for elections on chowk, and I am blessed with more than enough friends and loved ones in real life. So I dont need to worm my way into anyones favor on the internet.

Zafar #63 you are too kind. Cheers. And an advance Eid Mubarak to you and other chowkies.

scout #67 It requires courage and a sense of right and wrong to apologize. I suggest rather than ridiculing urstruly for the apology, given that it is his first time, you give him the benefit of the doubt and assume there is substance behind the apology and that he will be more careful in his choice of language in future.

Rsaxena #66 I realized that you were posting to the original one. But so what? My point is still valid - anything positive coming from a Pakistani (an apology from urstruly in this case) or about Pakistan causes you and your kind to develop stomach ulcers. As for these kicks on the behind that you would like to deliver to me, such ``hawai fire`` are easily delivered by any pipsqeak on chowk. Theh, however, are an indication of weakness, not strength. In real life you would probably think twice before issuing such threats to me (particularly if you are size and physical condition I have seen of most people from your part of India).

Tahmed is a buck toothed senile old man who secretly wishes he is not a Pakistani.

ahmadullah/ asthtagfillurah ..Ah forget it.These Arabic words are too hard

Don`t want to be obnoxious and take up too much bandwidth but here are some excerpts from Ruchira Gupta`s interview on the PBS show ``Adventure Divas - India``. To read the whole thing go to http://www.pbs.org/adventuredivas/india/divas/index.html

Would love to hear about other NGO in the subcontinent trying to do something about this. BTW other Desi Divas that they interviewed (also at that link) were Delhi`s own top cop Kiran Bedi (formally Kiran Peshawaria), Shubha Mugdal (ab ke sawan, ali more aNgana) and SEWA`s amazing Ela Bhatt !!





ruchira gupta

muckraker

She came to the brothels of Bombay to make a documentary about sex trafficking and never left. Realizing she couldn`t walk away from the atrocities she had witnessed, she started Apne Aap (On Our Own) to help women and children who have been sexually exploited regain their independence. Meanwhile, her Emmy award-winning film The Selling of Innocents continues to spread the word.

Ruchira: So this is our office, and the girls come in here and we register them. One of the biggest things that we`ve done, is we`ve launched a membership drive by trying to restore their sense of identity, and the way we`ve done that is by giving them these I.D. cards. Each girl gets a photograph on the card, and then they have their name, you give them an account number, we open a bank account for them because so far, nobody was going to open an account for them. They had no ID, they were not considered citizens of India, they were not given access to healthcare, but with this I.D. card, now they belong to an organization. They have a sense of who they are, and they can go anywhere, so this has been a very big help. One of our biggest success stories, with these I.D. cards, has been a fight that the girls had with the police. What happened was that the police went inside the brothels and tried to extort money from one of our girls. These girls flashed their I.D. cards, and said that, `Do you know that we belong to this organization and if you try to extort money from us, we`ll report to our organization?` And the cop went back. But he went to another girl who is not a member of our organization, beat her badly, her face turned blue, her jaw was broken, and he extorted about 1200 rupees from her. She brought the girl here, and made her a member. She took up her case with the police, and now the policeman has been transferred, so it was big victory for us.

Holly: Success, empowering.

Ruchira: Totally empowering, because these girls didn`t even know who they were. They didn`t have a sense of being citizens of this country — this is the first time that they belong to Bombay. And, you know, you can keep talking about rights in a vacuum, but until you have a sense of what rights mean, how you can exercise them, it doesn`t mean anything. And so this was our first day, to explain what rights mean, and how to have the right to fight the cops, because the cop or nobody has any right to extort money. So this was the first step; the second step is that we are cataloging all our members here.

Holly: Now, this is probably a stupid question, but prostitution is technically illegal here, it`s illegal right?

Ruchira: No, prostitution is legal in India; if I`m over 18, I can sell my body for sex and nobody can arrest me for it. But what is illegal is sex with a minor, also living off the earnings off somebody who is selling her body for sex. If I was a madam, it would be illegal, also if I was a pimp, it would be illegal. And the hard part, where the police actually harass the girls, is that soliciting in a public place is illegal, which means that, if you`re standing on the street and trying to get a client, you can be rounded up by the police, and that`s when the police keeps coming and picking up the girls, putting them into jail, extorting money, beating them up. And also, what they do is raid the brothels, they go inside the brothels and actually look for little girls, if they find the little girls, they go after the older women and try to extort money, saying that we`ll smash your brothels.

And these girls, they don`t have a sense of what is right, and what is constitutionally their entitlement, so they can`t challenge the police. They don`t know that it`s not allowed to extort money from them; they don`t know that they cannot come inside the brothel anytime and smash the furniture or their walls. They have no idea, so Apne Aap is also trying to tell all the women about what their rights are, how to fight the police, how to tackle the disease of HIV, AIDS, tuberculosis, and all these kinds of things. Sometimes it`s just a matter of information, and the second is of course organization, because you have to mobilize. You have to work together, because if they are isolated, the police can be more brutal. So that`s our membership drive.

Ali2,

Are you by any chance related to Ali1? If so, is he eating his sabzi?

Btw, Tahmed had ``wormed his way`` into all of our hearts long ago. But I agree, lets move on!

Scout, rdesi,

Thanks! Learning from the best!

Does the sex work industry exist in Pakistan? If so, can someone supply the basics?

(leaving the mothers of various male chowkies out of this? Good Godess, guys, those mama drama insults are in poor taste and will come right back at you)

re: Zafar

{{with said transaction not receiving the sanction of social legitimacy}}

who is to define social legitimacy?...and how are we to define it?...and for which society?...

re: this debate

ultimately, what consenting adults choose to do, if it does not directly influence others, is not something that anyone has a right to judge...but it takes a highly mature, educated (not in religion and dogma!), and developed society for something like this to work...dutch society is one example where it does...

One clarifn... Samina DID talk about incomes, regulation and protection for sex-workers in her first post.... not that it changes the gist of my earlier post, but putting this before someone pounces on me in ``defence of the poor girl``.

Frankly this surrogate-defence/chivalry b.s. is dated.... does anyone here NOT believe that the likes of Samina, scout, anNy and company are not capable of defending themselves as eloquently as any male who gallantly volunteers for the job can? ``For God`s sake let the woman talk`` is probably the best thing one of my forefathers ever told his sons.

Sheesh...now this makes me sound like a closet-feminist.

You can`t win on chowk :(((

Sound

Reply Scout #67:

Scout:

Far be it for me to defend the ``mad mullah from Detroit`` coz he`s quite capable of doing it himself. But passions tend to blur the truth.... and I`m going to say this much.... (tahmedsaab also plis to listen):

SaminaShah in her first post CLEARLY suggested an ``ideal society`` where prostitution be a simple fallout of a supply-meets-demand scenario. SHE DID NOT TALK ABOUT PROSTITUTES BEING TREATED HUMANELY AT ALL. Go back and read it again if you want to.

Urstruly`s way of provoking her was in my personal opinion rather crude (hence MY first post to him), but in keeping with Samina`s definition ...after all, if it`s simple supply and demand, then it`s just another profession...what`s the false pride for? And BTW tahmedsaab, I don`t think anyone should feel insulted at being called a ``bhangee`` (sweeper).... if you believe that then sorry you are as casteist as those Hindoos we love to bash, and all this liberal talk goes for a toss.

Of course all great stories have a happy ending, which in this case is: Urstruly has been true to his self-declared moral values and apologised for his thoughtless remark; Samina has accepted the apology (conditionally :))after having clarified what she meant by an ideal society; tahmed has proved himself the gentleman jouster of chowk yet again; then why do you scout....have to go and make a silly statement like:

``how convenient, you have a way of insulting and apologizing at the drop of a hat. how fakely gallant....

i won`t commend you for apologizing to saminashah....

you should go drown in a cup of water.``

Either you have not taken the pains to follow the debate or this is the standard teenage-girl-fighting ploy of ``OK, you say you`re sorry...but I`m STILL not talking to you``. Either way, it`s depressing.

Regrds,

Sound

Amy Fischer

Heidi Fleish

Christine Keeler

Monica Lewensky

Donna Rice

Jessica Han

Nur Jehan & many other women in India

Were not the coerced & opressed women to resort to the oldest profession out of hunger ,&destitution!

Urstruly #55,

how convenient, you have a way of insulting and apologizing at the drop of a hat. how fakely gallant.

i won`t commend you for apologizing to saminashah.

i commend HER for handling your unwarranted insults in a sophisticated, educated manner like the strong woman that she is.

you should go drown in a cup of water.

re: tahmed

{{urstruly #55 You did the right thing with your apology. This has frustrated Rsaxena #57,}}

frustrated? me? and fyi, i was commenting on his original post, not the apology, which wasn`t even posted when i wrote #57...so it appears you are indeed senile, and in need of a double-dose of chill pills, with a kick from behind to help you swallow them.

What`s wrong with two(or more) adults engaging in an activity involving no coercion, no infringement of the rights of others and fully realizing the consequences of their actions(s) in which both get what they want? Afterall doesn`t society allow people to get married and have kids when its apparent to all and sundry(except the participants) that the adults are not qualified for either?

later

-sac

urstruly #55 You did the right thing with your apology. This has frustrated Rsaxena #57, which of itself is certification that you have taken the right step. Of course I am just a senile baywaqoof gadha so what do I know.

RE Saminashah

Handled with class and poise. Must have to do with the upbringing and family values instilled in you. :)

Of the mad mullah, the less said the better. What a mealy-mouthed and unsincere apology.

Reply Soysauce # 56

“Define prostitution.”

Prostitution is an explicit transaction which involves one person giving the other some sort of sexual gratification in exchange for material gain, with said transaction not receiving the sanction of social legitimacy at least in part because it does not imply any sort of exclusivity or permanence (beyond the period of a finite, and usually short term, contractual understanding).

“Does the promise of prolonged material benefits for regular, predictable episodes of sex count as prostitution?”

IMO No. What you are thinking about would be concubinage. (Or by a particularly cynical definition, which I do not agree with, marriage.) Concubinage does imply exclusivity, and is generally not defined as lasting a specific time when commenced.

“Is it prostitution only when the emotional part is missing?”

No. Emotion has nothing to do with it (may be there, may not be there, it’s irrelevant).

“Are one-night stands prostitution even tho no money may have changed hands?”

Prostitution is defined as the explicit exchange of sexual gratification for material gain. If material gain doesn’t come into it, it isn’t prostitution. Material gain is not necessarily limited to money. A one night stand with no material gain involved is not prostitution.

Reply Tahmed # 52

I definitely appreciate your sawab ka kaam on this board. We are in awe of you, Sir! Keep up the good work, and please correct me when I stray from the path of righteousness.

Live and let live guys. Urstruly is a street thug educated in a madrassah. Everybody knows that.

Tahmed, the defender of women has wormed himself into the good books of Saminashah.

Urstruly has apologized though he doesnt mean it.

Let us move on.

Urstruly,

Your apology is accepted and will actually mean something if, in the future, you try to understand the viewpoints of female and male interactors who have differing perspectives in a genuine and meaningful manner.

Prostitution obviously exploits those who can find no other means to earn a living. A civilized, decent society would discourage such an activity by providing support, shelter, financial help, and education to those in need.

This is a tall order, and to my knowledge no society has been successful at fully eliminating prostitution. However, this is an ideal worth pursuing … since serving the mankind is perhaps the highest forms of worship. It eliminates prostitution by eliminating the misery and poverty that leads one to it.

The question remains … how should a society treat those who are still stuck in prostitution? Hopefully their number is dwindling … but they exist nevertheless. Treating them as outcasts only adds to their misery and perpetuates the cycle of exploitation. Accepting prostitutes as humans deserving respect, support, and care will be the first step towards solving the problem. I read Saminashah’s comment in this context and found myself largely in agreement with her.

Our Urstruly Sahib, forever trigger-happy when it comes to bashing those he disagrees with (never mind his own fanaticism), reacted as expected … in an obnoxious manner, misunderstanding the context, and forcing his own interpretation without caring much for clarification. Then he acts all indignant and hurt as if he is full of sympathy and compassion for the human beings … whereas in reality he has no problem condemning to death those who insult his scripture or prophet. What hypocrisy …

As for me, I concur with hamidm Sahib and would rather be with prostitutes, pimps, and drug pushers … than be in the company of mullahs all too keen on declaring others as heretics, issuing death sentence in the name of jihad, and inciting a mob to violence (from behind the mob, of course). There is a good chance that a lot many of them will eventually be reunited … in Dante’s 9th circle of hell.

Asad

dang, why is this twisted mullah from detroit allowed to get away with sexual harrassment on chowk...i don`t think the worst of us unruly posters on chowk comes close to this terrorist-wannabe...

#49 Zafar

Define prostitution.

Does the promise of prolonged material benefits for regular, predictable episodes of sex count as prostitution? Is it prostitution only when the emotional part is missing? Are one-night stands prostitution even tho no money may have changed hands?

Saminashah

I appologize for the callous remark I made to you in #16. Although I had explained the reason for that remark in the next post, yet it is the ugliest thing to be said to a lady. I hope you will find it in your heart to forgive me if I have hurt your feelings.

Soundmeister #40 While your post attempts to draw some balance, and while I do not wish to sound like a do-gooder defending helpless women, I nevertheless must point out something that you seem to overlook when you say that by calling for better treatment of prostitutes by society (which is what saminashah was doing) an individual considers that to be a profession he or she would take up. The fallacy behind such thinking is easily disproven by the following example I gave to urstruly: one can argue for the proper treatment of street sweepers in Pakistan without aspiring to become one.

If a man then moves on from this fallacy to use it to make suggestive and lewd remarks designed to humiliate the female poster, as urstruly did, then such behavior would be unacceptable. On a discussion forum, unless there is any sign of repentence or apology, that person would be kicked out.

Are we really that incapable of drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable conduct on chowk?

Zafar #49 Moving back to the subject of this article (thanks!!), prostitution is of course to be found everywhere. Is it good for anyone? I dont think so, since it basically reduces the life of an individual to the level of meat that is available to anyone willing to pay for a few minutes of pleasure. It is nevertheless a reality, and a result of some kind of distress: I think 99.9 % prostitutes of the world are running away from something - poverty in poor countries, broken homes in rich countries. In Pakistan there is no question: prostitution is an extreme form of the intimidation and harassment of women, and less extreme forms having been already demonstrated quite ably on this board by (OK, I wont get into that again). I wont solve this problem in this post, but thought I would send this to help you put the discussion (or whats left of it) back on track.

The day I will be able to make a mockery of the belief system of 1.2 billion people of this planet, chowk would be much bigger than AOL and MSN combined.

It might have hurt the feelings of 100-500 chowk followers but not as effectively as terms like idol worshippers, corrupted holy books followers, kafirs, dehriyas and murtids - from thousands of pulpits, speeches, articles, books and media.

I poked fun at the life of heaven occupants based on current scientific understanding, as eye-for-an-eye response to counter a sickening response to saminashah.

I wish my voice can be heard by 1.212 (the number has gone up for the fastest growing religion since I started typing this post) people through chowk.com.

Hey guys, don`t worry about me...I`ve been initiated into the world of the fundo mind, and you all should know that to be female and express an thought or an idea that challenges the fundo mindset means every kind of irrational, tangential and meanspirited foolishness. Whatever.

Urstruly,

While you get your thrills at the zoo, I get my kicks from literature. Particularly the text Animal Farm in which George Orwell satirically points out that, of course, all humans are equal, but SOME humans are more equal than others. I`m not explaining it to you Urs; steam that little vegetable dumpling of a brain and figure it out. And after you think you know what that quote means, please report back to us. We`ll tell you if you`ve got it right.

re: sex workers

I don`t think that sex work is necessarily a profession that its practitioners enter for the perks, benefits and glory. Its probably because most sex workers are forced by economic desperation. In those cases, does a humane society further marginalise these citizens by stigmatising them, denying them the acknowledgement of labor enacted, deny them benefits, health insurance (and Dettol is not medical care), medical care, safe environments, unionizing options, etc.? If society A, which does not condone sex work for whatever reasons, chooses to insure equal access to the kinds of privilleges other workers have, and access to other job options and society B chooses instead to condemn, punish, and marginalise sex workers, which is the more humane society, in action and in deed? Who does it benefit to stigmatise sex workers? By ``ideal society`` I mean not the best possible society, but one that protects its citizens. In any case, it is NOT may place to speak for all women, all men, all seamstresses, ambassadors, etc. You haven`t learned that Urst, have you

Urstruly: also, you write ``SameerJB has made a mockery of the belief system of 1.2 billion people of this planet. I didnt see you giving him a lecture on his upbringing and his character. ``

Sameer was not sexually harassing anyone the way you were. There is a difference of night and day, or legal vs. illegal, of moral or amoral vs. immoral, between holding different viewpoints, or even mocking other people`s viewpoints, on the one hand and sexual harassment on the other. And stop pretending to be a spokesman for 1.2 billion muslims and start concerning yourself with your own immoral conduct that you have demonstrated on this board.

Urstruly: And one more thing - try apologizing to the chowk poster concerned and others on this board for the sexual harassment of that poster. And then try to control your impulse for similar behavior in future. You can reject this advice or take it, it doesnt matter to me. But it might put you on the road to becoming a human being.

urstruly #44 you write ``tahmad321 I am sorry to say that, but you ARE mean, stupid and senile. `` also ``baywaqoof`` and ``gahda`` early on, and perhaps I missed one or two. I would normally be amused by such words directed at me. I would also be amused at your new set of justifications (``the title says ``taboo`` and so you now claim that you can sexually harass a female interactor on chowk - are you in control of your senses??). But in your case, having witnessed the way in which you have sexually harassed a female interactor on chowk (and the posts are there as testimony to this harassment), nothing you say can be amusing. And having exposed earlier on the fake nature of the veneer of moral outrage beneath which which you harassed the poster, you are a clear fake. Any properly moderated discussion group would have thrown you out a long time ago.

Reply Urstruly #32:

``I think you should read what Saminashah has written, again. She suggests that in an ``ideal society`` the prostitution should be an acceptable norm because it satisfies the demand-supply chain.``

## I did read it again, and you`re right. I guess last time I started off with YOUR post inquiring what her hourly rate was or some such, and I guess I got pissed off by it, esp. when I read Samina`s injured-innocence/dignity-intact response :))

``I haven’t called anyone names-you should read my post with a icey water bucket thrown on your head.``

## Why on earth would I wanna do that :((? BTW, you`re right.... by Samina`s defn, you haven`t called anyone ``names``.... and Samina, if you`re reading this, be sure to re-examine your own words and be sure of what you actually feel and think, as opposed to what you have been conditioned to believe is right....

Having said that... I still think that in a ``real society``, most people who sell their bodies for a living are in the business if you will because they have simply nothing else to live on.... it`s not like someone offered them the option of a safe, comfortable way to live, and they are doing it to spite society. Urstruly, these things need to be looked at in the right perspective, and by that I mean not just as a religious person, or a pragmatic one, but a thinking, responsible individual.... I have no sympathy for someone like Heidi Fleiss or those hi-society callgirls who claim they ``have to`` to maintain appearances.... bloody hell, take a typewriting job for all I care....

AND LEAVE MY DAUGHTER OUTTA THIS.... or was it a subtle slight coz I included all your other close relatives in MY post? ;)

Later...

Sound

Getting away from the “I am so clever and well read that none of you senile pinkos can understand me” vs “Nothing worth understanding there, you are a low class imbecile with the brains and manners of a flatulent sow” debate (no offence to anyone, and I’m not suggesting that any of you stop) just a few general questions:

1 Is there any country and society today where prostitution does not occur? (I think not, but maybe?)

2 Is there any correlation between social condemnation of prostitution and the occurrence of prostitution? That is to say, is there proportionally less prostitution in societies where prostitution is illegal and strongly condemned than in societies where it is legal? (I can’t think of any societies where it is not condemned in some manner, paranoid fantasies notwithstanding.)

3 Where it is illegal, is everybody involved with prostitution treated equally by the law and society? (Both the client and the prostitute are equally involved in each occurrence of prostitution. If either of them are missing, prostitution cannot take place.) What is the justification given if treatment is not equal? What would the outcome of equal treatment be?

4 Just in terms of human suffering, who suffers more – prostitutes or their clients? Is this suffering increased or decreased by banning prostitution? (If something is illegal it cannot be regulated.)

5 Is the approach of “Harm Reduction” appropriately applicable to prostitution?

[Harm Reduction boils down to acknowledging that a proportion of the population will engage in (at least potentially) antisocial behaviour, and setting systems in place which minimise the harm these people do to themselves and others. An example of Harm Reduction is the law that airplane flights in the US be non-smoking. Smokers can smoke in their own space, or in certain public spaces, but cannot smoke in those public spaces where there behaviour has a definite health impact on others. More controversially, another Harm Reduction strategy is the UK (still, I believe) National Health providing prescription heroin to some hardened addicts, thereby limiting their impact on society in terms of crime and also protecting them from dying due to ingestion of random additives included in their drugs. The objective of a Harm Reduction strategy is twofold: (1) to limit the impact of an individual’s (or group’s) antisocial behaviour on the rest of society and (2) to give the person engaged in antisocial behaviour a chance to survive it, and perhaps therefore come through it and get on with productive lives at a later date. (In the example I gave re: heroin prescription, the impacte were found to include: keeping addicts involved in the legal work force, and thereby raising the chance of their being able to live normal lives after they quit their addiction; reduced violent crime against weaker sections of society, such as old people, by addicts to feed their addiction; reduced family break ups, which affected the children of addicts. The system also facilitates getting information on quitting drugs to addicts.) Re: prostitution I think that both of these approaches could be valid. Note: the second point could well involve a moral (or religious) dimension.]

So you know where I’m coming from, here are my assumptions: The people who suffer most from prostitution are prostitutes. I do not see prostitution as something that people generally choose if they have options – the driver is generally economic deprivation (in the developed countries often exacerbated by addiction). A serious problem in the subcontinent (and elsewhere) is involuntary prostitution, involving some sort of slavery, often of minors. The problems associated with prostitution are exacerbated by making it illegal – thereby beyond the reach of regulation – and by deeming prostitutes criminals – thereby making it difficult for them to ask for help without opening themselves up to prosecution. Importantly: prostitution should not be an irrevocable decision – people should be helped to survive it and to move on to do other things with their lives if they want to. (Harm Reduction is a major way to do this.) I believe that this is a decision that has to be made by each individual if it is going to be a lasting one. I do not believe society should ever give up on people, although it should be realistic about them. Aap ke shubh vichaar?

I LOVE both of you! Jug jug jeeyo aap dono log :)

Ofcourse, I am familiar with all that. You are talking to a guy who was (and to a great extent remains) a Hindi poetry nut, who given a chance will rather listen to hearty, rousing Alhaa, or enchanting rasia, or kajri, or phag than any thing else. After all, UP was the place that created the famous Bharat Natya Shastra, and Lucknow is the proud home of Bhatkhande School of Music and Dance (located just a few kilometers from my house)! It is the place of Swami Haridas ji (Tansen`s guru), of Tulsi and Sur, of Begum Akhtar, Birju Maharaj, Bismillah Khan, Akbar Ali Khan, Siddeshwari Devi, Hari Prasad Chaurasia....endless...endless list of most venerable names! :)

My lament wasn`t against UP`s cultural heritage. I was bemoaning the rather blase attitude I sometimes find amongst people there these days(may be amongst the people I know) toward music and dance. That is why it was so refreshing to visit Karnata, Tamil Nadu, and ofcourse West Bengal.

tahmad321

Ok, I tried to be nice with you but not only that you are a meanspirited senile (as was proved last time)but you are baywaqoof gaddha as well. But let me be nice with you one more time, may be I am wrong-no harm double checking.

Let me ease some of your pain and ask you to scroll your screen up. Go right at the top and see the title of this article. You see the word ``Taboo`` there? Do you? So that is the topic of discussion here. We are discussing a taboo here. And whenever taboos are discussed the blood pressures are supposed to sky rocket; heat is supposed to get on; insults are perceived; and insults are hurled; personal convictions do come under scrutiny; and that is the reason a taboo is a taboo and Kashmir is kashmir.

So if you are uncomfortable in a discourse over a taboo then you can excuse your tail from under our feet and go somewhere where you are comfortable.

And do not give me this harassment and shitt tripe-in case you haven`t noticed, SameerJB has made a mockery of the belief system of 1.2 billion people of this planet. I didnt see you giving him a lecture on his upbringing and his character. tahmad321 I am sorry to say that, but you ARE mean, stupid and senile. And that is an ugly combination.

Re Prem #28 ``You are right. In that damn state of mine, UP, most folks consider singing/dancing to be infra dig.``

Umm, I am not sure about that cos I know too many people from that ``damn state`` who have had training in both classical music and dance.

Kathak is one dance form which has evolved here. It originated in the temple, where It was used as pantomime to accompany the recitation of the Kathaks, the story-tellers who recounted tales from Hindu mythology. The Mughal Emperors patronised it and the dancers they imported from Persia and elsewhere, were Influenced by Kathak, and, in, turn, influenced it.

True in Southern India this heritage goes back far longer than in the other parts of India, but remember when you talk about South India, you are lumping number of different states together, whereas each state has its own unique dance tradition.

I am also not sure if you have considered folk music & dance here which is a part of rural life all over India e.g. Kajri & Jhoola in UP. What is ``Braj ki Raslila`` if not another expression of music.

I could carry on with more details here but suffice to say there is a rich musical & dance tradition in Uttar Pradesh which is fortunately still being carried on. As additudes change and with parents desiring that their children learn the performing arts, more people are shedding the bias in their minds towards ``Naachnewali/Gaanewali``.

-

Subroto

Interesting discussions.

Animals, truly have strange sexual behavior. The Sea Lions with their harems, the lead male sea lion is technically called a BeachMaster (what a term).

The lions who kill the young of the lioness sired by another lion, so as to get the lioness to mate again. The lioness mourn their young`s death for a day and then the primal urge takes over and she accepts the advances of the killer lion.

Humans as in everything else, take the cake here too. The amount of variations on possible sexual roles and relationaships practiced around the world and in history by humans boggles the mind.

There`s this native Amazonian tribe in which the older females of the village initiate young men on how to `perform` well. Promiscuity is/was quite rampant and accepted in some native american tribes. In one north amercian native tribe, visitors were provided with an escort to provide all services for the duration of their stay. In Amazon (Amazonian tribes are notoriously promiscuous), the men when returning from a hunt, bang their utensils and shout their arrival.. giving their significant other`s possible lover a chance to leave undetected. Orgies are/were a regular function and in a documentary, a woman complained that her husband had been influenced by the `new` ways and had started becoming jealous of her many relationships, much to her chagrin.

And then we have the other side of the spectrum, the honor killings, the stoning to death of adulterers, etc.

What a world we live in. It takes all types to make it so interesting.

Veeresh:``ps: Our Antarctic expeditions are better than yours, in fact, you don`t have them!``

Me: But did you know we send our guys with the Chinese expeditions. Hah, and their`s are bigger and better than yours :)

Sorry, but I couldn`t resist.

urstruly #39 You say you refuse to comments since my posts are not worth your time. Your capacity for false excuses seems unlimited. The fact is that in my post below your disgraceful sexual harassment of a female chowk poster is clearly exposed, and you cannot lie and say you did not write something that is there for all to see.

In your earlier post, you had even referred to the daughter of this female poster in the same filthy way!!! this has to be a new low on chowk, which is already being pulled into the gutters thanks to the lack of attention by the Chowk Moderator. And you are the father of a daughter yourself!! maybe you should have your wife read the filth you have written to this female poster on chowk so she better understands the kind of individual you are (I suspect she already knows that). You can post all the learned stuff on chowk that you like, and you can make all the excuses you like, but none of these can hide the filth that is in your mind.

(And I have already told you not to try the Panjabi line with me - the fact that you are a Panjabi doesnt mean a thing to me. )

Dear Vareesh

thank you for your lecture on nature and stuff. My question is still that if you are comfortable doing that? See my response to soundmeister. How would you respond.

tahmad

and you still think that you can have the field day with me. right? that is amazing. banday noo dheet hona chaheeda eh, sharam aani jaani shay way.

I think I have dealt with you good once, yeh bazoo mairay aazmay hoay hain. I think you are not worth my time.

Urstruly #32 First, let me congratulate you on your study of apes on TV. Learning the social and sexual habits of monkeys will no doubt be a step up from the household you, judging from your posts, grew up in.

Second, on your sexually laced and insulting remarks you make about a female chowk poster. Your excuse for this harassment on the grounds that she wrote that prostitution should be treated as a profession. Your excuse is worthless, for the following reason: one can argue for the proper treatment of street sweepers in Pakistan without aspiring to become one. Read this last sentence a couple of times since it will have difficulty getting into your head.

Your excuse being exposed as being without legs, where does that leave you? a two-bit scumbag who shamelessly insults women and routinely brings up sexually-laced material on the false pretexts.

Dear urstruly . . . on prostitution, this is my take:-

a) It is not restricted only to males or females in customer/supplier of sex mode, but also extends to beyond sex. Right?

b) In some sections of society, surely some parents are hoping against hope that their daughters make it good as courtesans, geishas, strip-tease artistes, belly dancers, prostitutes, whatever. Right?

c) It is therefore as much a part of nature as is, say, a dog performing fellatio on himself. Right?

So with all respect to much of what you say, why are you getting so upset with just another form of nature? I mean, even female penguins are known to actually trade sex to help collect rocks (one small rock at a time, hoarded by the male penguins) to help build their nests, and that is true, not a funny one. India sends expeditions to the Antarctic and I was associated with a few.

warm regards,

Veeresh

ps: Our Antarctic expeditions are better than yours, in fact, you don`t have them!

re : prem #28

i know a lot of girls who learned classical singing in UP including my Mum and Mausis and they were all into writing kavitas too, they were from the subhadra kumari chauhan generation

bundele harbolon ke munh hamne suni kahani thi,

khoob ladi mardani voh to jhansi wali rani thi

ring a bell ?

but except for a few people who learnt kathak dancing was not encouraged ... it is changing in this generation though

some of my best memories are Mr. Krishnans bharat natiyam dance class in APS which ended when i ending up in boarding school in lovely meerut with the nuns who taught us ballroom dancing !

i had some paki friends over to dinner with my college friend from Miranda and her husband, and the girl was simply amazed to hear about my friends dance school in NOIDA where she taught hoards of kids as young as 3 years bharat natiyam - do they not have any dance schools in pakistan for aache ghar ke kids ?

MINOS SANS MERCY

Those of you who have read Dante`s Divine Comedy, specifically, the Inferno, must know who the Minos was. But before I go on telling you, again, who the Minos was, let me tell you the difference between a seducer (used the word seducer because Dante counts both men and women in this category) and a prostitute. Apparently, there is no difference because every prostitute seduces to gain what she wants but not every seductress is a prostitute. There lies this delicate difference. A prostitute may seduce to fill the empty stomach of hers and her children but a seductress seduces partly because of lust and partly to get more than what she already has. She may have a full stomach and yet she seduces.

Before I tell you about Minos, I want to tell you about Paolo and Francesca as well. They are two adulterers condemned in Dante`s Inferno for their adultery. They are condemned to an interesting yet most horrible punishment. They are stuck in mid-coitus and can`t separate. They are condemned to making tasteless love for eternity. In their life all they wanted was to be together and in afterlife all they want is to get separated.

Before I tell you about Minos, let me tell you about Dante`s Inferno as well. Dante has divided hell into nine circles; with the first circle where punishments are least severe and then the ninth circle where the punishments are most severe; and here lies the Dark Angel the Satan at the bottom of ninth circle called Abyss.

It is interesting to note that Dante has envisioned Paolo and Francesca in the third circle of hell, whereas he envisions seducers and whores in the Ninth circle near the Satan`s headquarters. Interesting isn`t it. Now keep one thing in mind that the women he has described as whores are actually seductresses who seduce to satisfy their lust. In other words there is no prostitute in Dante`s hell. And there is a reason for that. And the reason is Minos.

Now Minos is actually a judge, a half god, probably son of Zeus, who is revered for his justice and fairness. He resides in the second circle of hell. When sinners are brought before him, he assigns them to the proper circle with the punishment, which fits their crime. Sometimes I wonder, it must be Minos who sends prostitutes back from hell to the paradiso because in his good judgement he thinks that since prostitutes have suffered enough in this life they need not suffer in the afterlife.

But sometimes, I think, and it gripes my heart to think that, actually we are the Minos of this world. And unlike the just Minos of the other world we are as unjust as we can be. We as the society are the Minos who condemn the weakest of us all to the lowest abyss of this world-into the prostitution. Sometimes I think of prostitutes as the invalids who are born with one less limb or without sense of sight. Sometimes I think of prostitutes as the invalids who were not born invalid but actually we had broken their limbs just like kharkaars who break the limbs of little children and make them beg for the alms. Sometimes I feel ashamed as to how we treat the invalids of the society. Sometimes I feel ashamed that how unjust we are as people, the people without mercy. The Minos the judges with no mercy. Sometimes I feel ashamed when I see that how we fail to cure a curable disease. Sometimes I feel ashamed to see people when they get hurt to do everything that they can to cure a limb that gets broken or get bruised. But as a society, instead of curing this gangreneous limb we start hating it. We cut it off. We shun it. We abhor it. But we don’t cure it. It means that we the humans have failed ourselves to form a society without illness, without disease, and without hate.

As a society we the humans have failed. It is shameful. But what is more shameful is not that we cannot cure a disease but we start accepting the disease; we start looking the other way at the disease; we start thinking about generating tax dollars from the diseased; we show the weak that the way to survive is to get the disease; get a shower in the stench and puss of the disease. And that is when I feel myself being with the seducers in the Ninth circle, eating my excrement; right near the Satan`s headquarter. Some Minos we are.

Hobbyty

Have I accounted for all the scum now?

SameerJB

Judging by your response, I think my kick has hit quite hard where I intended it to i.e. right at the ``progressive`` testicles.

When you cool down try enjoying this joke.

Once a man and a woman started arguing as to who has more tolerance for pain, a man or a woman. The woman starts whinning about the pains during childbirth and blah blah blah......the man keeps listening to her patiently and when she finishes ask her just one question ``kadhi tattiaN tay lut khaadi eh?``

(tr:have you ever got kicked at the testicles?)

Soundmeister

I think you should read what Saminashah has written, again. She suggests that in an ``ideal society`` the prostitution should be an acceptable norm because it satisfies the demand-supply chain. She in no less words is suggesting that the prostitution should be a pensionable job like other professions. In her view the practice of ``prostitution`` is not bad but the lack of its status as an accepted profession is.

So I tested her theory, she seriously minds doing what she suggests to others. I haven’t called anyone names-you should read my post with a icey water bucket thrown on your head. Once you do that imagine yourself and your husband sitting in Saminashah`s drawing room with Saminashah and her husband. Their little girl in her beautiful voice has just sung the ``mary had a little lamb`` and ``yankee doodle`` for you; and now she has just begun singing ``Ba ba blacksheep, have you any wool``; when she finishes you can`t help but peck her rosey cheek. And then you ask her the common question that we all ask little kids ``what are you gonna be when you grow up?``. The little kid replies ``I wanna be a doctor``. Saminashah looks at her daughter admonishingly and interrupts with a laughter ``Oh no we want her to be a prostitute when she grows up. We have been looking all around for the best of those hooker-making schools. We hope that she becomes the best of hookers and bring a good name to the family``.

So my question to Saminashah was that in an ``ideal society`` will she do that? And judging by her response I don’t think so; may be she has best of the intentions for your daughter, Soundmiester.

Finally its the Nang-e-Insanyat activists who go into those ghettos and treat those women as human beings, the great self-appointed moral custodians of the world would not stoop to that low no. How many religious leaders do you see going out and rehabilitating prostitutes and providing them things like health care?

god who created the universe, life on one of the planet of a star of a galaxy, could have easily controlled the human sexual behavior by females being receptive only during heat, as is the case in most animals. He could have limit the number of partners to one as monogamy, he could have offered no houris or maybe one for men ending up in heaven in afterlife. He is the one who offered 72 houris in heaven to each. Such is the ``rational thinking``, god and sending his prophets. Given the amount of knowledge in current era, watching a program about monkeys on TLC or reading am amtique book in arabic language can not make a person knowledgeable about all out there.

Different species of monkeys have different sexual behavior. Urstruly did not notice the behavior of rhesus monkeys having sex all the time with both male and female having multiple partners without regard to relationships among them. An evolutionary outcome of such behavior is disproportionally large size of male testicles. Now apply this rationally to the occupants of heaven each with 72 houris, having sex with at least ten between each prayers. Given the eternity of life (no time limit) imagine the sizze of testicles of Maudoodi, mullah Omar, Khomeini, Mufti Saeed, mulla Azhar and all those in heaven - dragging their testicles, with difficulty to walk and basically immoveable life style. Kama sutra will come handy for these over-sized testicle males in heaven. A couch potato life.

Prostitution results from supply and demand. If there is no demand, for example everybody (male) with fatal attraction to die in jehad will dry up the supply. As long as the supply and demand principle is valid, the supply and suppliers will and should look for better deals through organization, labor laws, better working conditions etc etc.

Reply Urstruly #23:

``These Nang-e-Insanyat women rights activists have absolutely no qualms suggesting to other people what they don’t like for themselves. SAMINASHAH supports prostitution rights of women in an ``ideal society`` but as long as it is not she herself and her daughter or sister (see #19 & #18).``

## So what ur suggesting is that in order for me to tolerate prostitution or even accept it as a NECESSARY societal evil, I have to be a whore myself?

If I`m pro-capital punishment, does that mean you will only accept my views if I have personally flicked a switch or turned on the gas of someone condemned to death? If I say I support euthanasia, will you insist that I pop a few neighborhood oldies before my opinion gathers worth?

There are moral arguments and then there are practical (secular, if you will) arguments. The real world strives for a balance.

Name-calling and rabid ranting is doing nobody any good. Maybe you need to ask yourself whether what you asked Saminashah was the ``moral`` thing to do..... ask yourself how YOU would have felt if someone called your wife/sister/mother a ``whore`` because she expressed sympathy for one.... then things can get on an even keel here.

Think about it.

re: srashid # 27

You are right. In that damn state of mine, UP, most folks consider singing/dancing to be infra dig. It wasn`t until I travelled out of UP, to Bengal, to southern Indian states that I realized how marvellous, how valued, and how highly developed musical/dance traditions can be. When I saw music/dance so seemlessly woven in the fabric of ordinary life, particularly in south, I was simply amazed.

A lot of this association of dance/music/art with prostitution is cultural, and I`m guessing strongest in north india.

I knew a bangladeshi family one member of whom hails from delhi (the grandmother) who was endlessly annoyed with her daughter-in-law`s family because they`d teach their girls (and even guys)to sing and get into the arts and poetry and somesuch...not realising these were perfectly normal things among bengalis, but marks of ``low character`` where she came from...said daughter in law was forbidden from playing the sitar et al until much later in life.

tahmed 321 # 21 . . . boss, will I also get easy credit and good extra special treatment? I really enjoy these offers, I get so excited, are they also valid in Canada?

Urstruly

You have not accounted for the fact that the people who want for example legitimacy for ``sex workers`` (notice the ``worker`` part - they even rob the the ``profession`` of emotion, not just morality) - Sir, these people are Marxists, they are also ``Liberals``, therefore like to describe themselves as ``progressive`` - You may not have believed the threat that Pakistani Marxist pose to Open human society - but the attitudes that the so called ``educated`` (only in marxist thought) should be instructive - God forbid if they should ever be in a position to influence open societies.

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A TALE OF THREE MONKEYS

Let me clear one thing before I start this post, that this post is definitely not about the monkeys I usually spite and write about but this post is about the monkeys that I saw on a documentary at the TLC (the learning channel). This documentary captured the social life of the primates, specifically that of monkeys and chimpanzees etc. It was absolutely breathtaking to see their social structure and how it resembles that of humans. A monkey is a social animal that lives in small groups/communities. On one hand if we see one-to-one male-female family, we also see the excesses of the dominant males over the females. The rape of female monkeys and child monkeys by dominant males was also common. But what I (and the narrator) found most astonishing was the sexual favors that were extended to dominant males by some of the females; for food and protection etc. Unlike shreef females these particular females in the group exhibited certain ``skills of the trade`` to entice dominant monkeys. In other words these particular female monkeys were using sex (or their bodies) as a currency. And interesting thing is that these ``promiscuous`` females along with the dominant males are treated as social outcastes by other females and non-dominant males; (the dominant males however still controlled the group with their aggressive behavior). Talk about the morality of monkeys. Astonishing, isn`t it?

But what really knocked the Bejesus out of me was to see that some (an acute minority) male monkeys were also offering sexual favors to the dominant males in return for food and protection etc. Astonishing, isn`t it?

Another common trait among all primates of this category (monkeys etc) is that, at times they get really violent. They are territorial, they kill each other with in a group and keep a strict family structure with in the group.

In the next episode they showed a unique specie among the monkeys whose life-style actually knocked the bejesus out of the narrator. This particular type of monkeys is found in Madagascar. What makes this kind of monkeys so special is the fact that they are (according to the narrator) the most peaceful bunch on the globe. They just simply walk away from the trouble, share food, and since they are the only kind of monkeys on the island they were not territorial; AND all the members of this group-male or female-were bisexual. Astonishing, isn`t it.

It is fairly easy for those who are reading this post to draw conclusions from these two groups of monkeys and apply it to the human social structure.

Even if we do not think that we are Darwinian descendents of primates, we can still see that the primitive cave man had certain advantages over his female counterparts; the body strength; the physical restrictions on females due to child bearing and rearing and resulting dependence on men for food, shelter, and defense; the monthly downtime etc. So I think it is actually the physical traits of the women that put the men in a dominant position in the first human societies. The sexual derive of both sexes may or may not be the same. But most definitely how this sexual drive was used, was different. Whereas males used it to satisfy their lust, the females used it or attached to it a factor of safety, protection, and food etc. Thus were created the two oldest institutions in the world-the family and the prostitution.

So when God started sending Prophets and man started thinking rationally he found that the family structure should be the preferred lifestyle because it guaranteed survival and continuation through procreation. On the other hand prostitution remained in use to satisfy lust (on part of males) and to ensure survival (on part of females).

But wait this post does not end here; like I said it is a tale of three monkeys and I told you the tale of two. You see, in the last paragraph I wrote ``….when God started sending Prophets and man started thinking rationally….``. The sentence has two parts ``God`s Prophets`` and ``rational thinking``. The question is that are these two notions mutually exclusive? The question also arises whether we can live without morality or not. Now suppose we subtract the Divinity from the equation and rely solely on the ``rational thinking`` then don’t we come up with what West has come to and what SAMINASHAH has written in her post……she writes …….``However, in an ideal society, why isn`t this field of work treated as a legitimate profession? Now I know that there are people who can`t think past the ``toba toba sharam ki baath hai`` aspect, but lets not delude ourselves: 1. there is obviously a demand for sex workers because they exist, I assume, in every country and not just the Shaitani West. 2. Shouldn`t sex workers be treated as workers in any legitimate field, with incomes, benefits, protection, regulation, and irrationally stigmatised?`` End Quote.

So in conclusion when we sideline the morality given to us by Divinity we are confined to draw our morality with observation and ``rational thinking``. So we observe monkeys and we draw morality from them. So the monkey becomes the beacon of light. But what people don’t understand is that by mimicking monkeys we can only become monkeys and not better than them.

And, ladies and gentlemen, what SAMINASHAH has written in her post #8, is not something that may be called as SAMINASHAH`s views. It is the agenda of Western and Westernized Women Right Activists. They are trying hard to establish prostitution as a basic human (woman) right in the Charter of Human Rights of United Nations. And another part of their agenda is to include the crass practices like homosexuality in the Charter as well. For reference please use your browser and see the proceedings of Women 2000-Beijing, United Nation`s Conference on women and other related conferences. Once these social evils are entered into the Charter of Human Rights no Nation in this world will be able to enact laws preventing prostitution and homosexuality.

What disgusts me the most is the hypocrisy and double standards of these phuphies, and chachas and mamas of the Women`s Rights. These Nang-e-Insanyat women rights activists have absolutely no qualms suggesting to other people what they don’t like for themselves. SAMINASHAH supports prostitution rights of women in an ``ideal society`` but as long as it is not she herself and her daughter or sister (see #19 & #18). Women like her support homosexuality right of people but as long as it is not her son sleeping around town with the uncles. And this is the reason, despite having all the resources in the world, West is unable to uplift its women. Sure women are given rights but she is also made to dance naked on the tables and sell herself to feed herself. What kind of people are you? Are you people or are you monkeys. And I protest, and I refuse to be a monkey like you. I respect other human beings and I would never suggest anything to my fellow human being, which I do not like for myself. I refuse to be a monkey.

And SAMINASHAH I hope now you understand the point I was trying to make in my # 16. I wish you had quivered and convulsed with same degree of anger, after reading my inquiry, while you were suggesting the same for the daughters, si