Delhi University Politics
Parag Vohra March 1, 2002
#91 Posted by temporal on March 8, 2002 5:53:41 pm
SameerJB#90:
…oh brother!…(shaking me head)…quite an unexpected reaction from you…first off…I apologise…did not mean to rankle you…
…asked those queries only because I knew you must have pondered the issues in your usual analytical mode and I was interested in your feedback re: the ‘cultural’ baggage we all carry…am afraid was totally misunderstood…khair…
rgds,
t
…oh brother!…(shaking me head)…quite an unexpected reaction from you…first off…I apologise…did not mean to rankle you…
…asked those queries only because I knew you must have pondered the issues in your usual analytical mode and I was interested in your feedback re: the ‘cultural’ baggage we all carry…am afraid was totally misunderstood…khair…
rgds,
t
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#90 Posted by saminashah on March 8, 2002 3:46:18 pm
Sameer,
Forgive my intrusion into this thread, but I was struck by some of the remarks in your last post, and so very little moves me lately...
``It is not their concern if a hefty chunk of the cream of a nation is being turned into mindless flock of sheep.``
Hear hear.
`` Why shouldn’t my angst be lurking in my posts dealing with a very sensitive area close to the root cause of several of our predicaments and problems?``
This is an extremely interesting question, particularly when no-one (on Chowk, anyway, besides a few lone interactors) will deign to acknowledge the very legitimate critiques made of Islamic interpretations. It seems to be much easier to squawk accusations of disloyalty to religion, ethnic identity, and the various and sundry defamations of political and sexual orientations....it reminds me of the Ionesco play-theres a rhino charging through the town, but no-one will acknowledge it...
And I second the anger. I feel as if I have been betrayed, lied to and manipulated by the excuses, myths and justifications for the behavior and values, that pass for religion nowadays. I remember joining my university`s Palestinian org., an intellectual and activist group because my esteemed mother (Ummi Jaan to you, Ali)
raised me to be politically conscious. I had understood it to be a ``Muslim`` dynamic. After two monthes of working in the group and doing a great deal of research, it became clear that the variables were much more complex. At the same time I was reading essays by women Iranian socialist intellectuals analysing the conditions leading up to Khomeini`s takeover. The use of the chador was completely demystified. among other phenomena.
There should be space for people to ask questions and dialogue about this. I appreciated your and anNy`s posts.
``I see nobody complaining about lurking angst when more than ten articles, with generating average of 400 responses for each of them and dealing with a heap of rubble in some obscure place called Ayodhya. I see no complaining about lurking angst in never ending Jinnah-Gandhi and Hindu-Muslim comparisons and permanent discussion about Kashmir, Kargill and war details with several resident experts.``
Goddess have mercy; I have been far too polite to interfere in the boy`s war room. The Jinnah-Gandhi/Muslim-Hindu saga has left many of us going to Sulekha in crazed desperation...toba toba..
The rest of your post was fascinating. Please continue.
best
Forgive my intrusion into this thread, but I was struck by some of the remarks in your last post, and so very little moves me lately...
``It is not their concern if a hefty chunk of the cream of a nation is being turned into mindless flock of sheep.``
Hear hear.
`` Why shouldn’t my angst be lurking in my posts dealing with a very sensitive area close to the root cause of several of our predicaments and problems?``
This is an extremely interesting question, particularly when no-one (on Chowk, anyway, besides a few lone interactors) will deign to acknowledge the very legitimate critiques made of Islamic interpretations. It seems to be much easier to squawk accusations of disloyalty to religion, ethnic identity, and the various and sundry defamations of political and sexual orientations....it reminds me of the Ionesco play-theres a rhino charging through the town, but no-one will acknowledge it...
And I second the anger. I feel as if I have been betrayed, lied to and manipulated by the excuses, myths and justifications for the behavior and values, that pass for religion nowadays. I remember joining my university`s Palestinian org., an intellectual and activist group because my esteemed mother (Ummi Jaan to you, Ali)
raised me to be politically conscious. I had understood it to be a ``Muslim`` dynamic. After two monthes of working in the group and doing a great deal of research, it became clear that the variables were much more complex. At the same time I was reading essays by women Iranian socialist intellectuals analysing the conditions leading up to Khomeini`s takeover. The use of the chador was completely demystified. among other phenomena.
There should be space for people to ask questions and dialogue about this. I appreciated your and anNy`s posts.
``I see nobody complaining about lurking angst when more than ten articles, with generating average of 400 responses for each of them and dealing with a heap of rubble in some obscure place called Ayodhya. I see no complaining about lurking angst in never ending Jinnah-Gandhi and Hindu-Muslim comparisons and permanent discussion about Kashmir, Kargill and war details with several resident experts.``
Goddess have mercy; I have been far too polite to interfere in the boy`s war room. The Jinnah-Gandhi/Muslim-Hindu saga has left many of us going to Sulekha in crazed desperation...toba toba..
The rest of your post was fascinating. Please continue.
best
#89 Posted by SameerJB on March 8, 2002 1:35:54 pm
sac, temporal and Romair: Very much like women’s issues, not many people took interest in discussing politics of hatred at college and universities. It is not their concern if a hefty chunk of the cream of a nation is being turned into mindless flock of sheep. But when I described my personal experience, in line with the topic of this thread, I was asked personal questions that have nothing to do with the topic. Why shouldn’t my angst be lurking in my posts dealing with a very sensitive area close to the root cause of several of our predicaments and problems? I see nobody complaining about lurking angst when more than ten articles, with generating average of 400 responses for each of them and dealing with a heap of rubble in some obscure place called Ayodhya. I see no complaining about lurking angst in never ending Jinnah-Gandhi and Hindu-Muslim comparisons and permanent discussion about Kashmir, Kargill and war details with several resident experts. When I try to hit below the belt at the common denominator in all these troubles, the anguish and anger is displayed independent of the factors and conditions, as if it is a constant. In more polite English it is called taking out of context and then beating the drum with it.
No I never applied to any military school and yes, I will keep focusing on the root causes - the common denominators - with as analytically as my mind is capable of doing it. I can’t wait to read the next barrage of questioning with ylh possibly inquiring about my anatomy.
It is my conviction and not any compulsion that Islam is a problem and not a solution. Too much input is gone into the making of this conviction, mostly science and god, analytical thinking based on social and economic indicators, history, comparison with others under similar conditions, studying other philosophies, current geo-political situation and least of all personal experiences, although personal experiences instigated me to explore and compare with other philosophies with keeping all options open. It is also my conviction that Islam is inferior as a religion on both ritualistic and dogmatic accounts to many other religions.
So where do I stand with cultural part of Islam in my psyche? Or why not pretence due to any of the social reasons? My personal social condition is the most flexible one. I am not constrained by any emotional bond to any Muslim in Diaspora where a compromise or pretence is a better alternative. It is actually quite the opposite.
Anyone still interested in discussing students’ politics?
P.S. Romair, Please compare the diversity of topics of my few articles at chowk with anyother writer at chowk. They range from game theory, to Aryan Migration, to mass rebellions against invaders, to women`s rights and obsession with....... perhaps you see more Islam bashing because you wish to notice it more than other topics and issues.
No I never applied to any military school and yes, I will keep focusing on the root causes - the common denominators - with as analytically as my mind is capable of doing it. I can’t wait to read the next barrage of questioning with ylh possibly inquiring about my anatomy.
It is my conviction and not any compulsion that Islam is a problem and not a solution. Too much input is gone into the making of this conviction, mostly science and god, analytical thinking based on social and economic indicators, history, comparison with others under similar conditions, studying other philosophies, current geo-political situation and least of all personal experiences, although personal experiences instigated me to explore and compare with other philosophies with keeping all options open. It is also my conviction that Islam is inferior as a religion on both ritualistic and dogmatic accounts to many other religions.
So where do I stand with cultural part of Islam in my psyche? Or why not pretence due to any of the social reasons? My personal social condition is the most flexible one. I am not constrained by any emotional bond to any Muslim in Diaspora where a compromise or pretence is a better alternative. It is actually quite the opposite.
Anyone still interested in discussing students’ politics?
P.S. Romair, Please compare the diversity of topics of my few articles at chowk with anyother writer at chowk. They range from game theory, to Aryan Migration, to mass rebellions against invaders, to women`s rights and obsession with....... perhaps you see more Islam bashing because you wish to notice it more than other topics and issues.
#88 Posted by ZafarA on March 8, 2002 3:55:26 am
Stuka - now that you`ve tantalised us with this, when is the Rath Yathra piece going to be presented? And if you experienced it as a light thing, then WRITE it that way - no point re-casting your recollections in a more sombre mood due to hindsight.
anNy - Relax, Madame. Question away, but why get unhappy? Allah Mian ne aap ko aqal diya tho iss hi liye, na?
anNy - Relax, Madame. Question away, but why get unhappy? Allah Mian ne aap ko aqal diya tho iss hi liye, na?
#87 Posted by scout on March 8, 2002 1:36:04 am
Raveena #67, ``.you need religion to tell you not to shoot someone in the head? not to steal? or cause harm to people who have caused you no harm?...isn`t that just common sense?...``
you`re right, but some people benefit from the discipline of religion. it`s not a matter of religion telling a person that murder is a sin.
if a potential criminal or ``lost soul`` finds solace in religion and spirituality and develops a direction in life, what`s the harm in it? some people find peace in meditation, some in praying five times a day, some in going to the local mandir for pooja, some in devouring Godiva chocolates. what makes one different than the other? as long as the religion is kept to oneself and not forced upon others, it can do good.
just like you shouldn`t let religion blind you, you shouldn`t let your anti-religious stand blind you. both extremes are dumb and dangerous.
you`re right, but some people benefit from the discipline of religion. it`s not a matter of religion telling a person that murder is a sin.
if a potential criminal or ``lost soul`` finds solace in religion and spirituality and develops a direction in life, what`s the harm in it? some people find peace in meditation, some in praying five times a day, some in going to the local mandir for pooja, some in devouring Godiva chocolates. what makes one different than the other? as long as the religion is kept to oneself and not forced upon others, it can do good.
just like you shouldn`t let religion blind you, you shouldn`t let your anti-religious stand blind you. both extremes are dumb and dangerous.
#86 Posted by rozaiba on March 7, 2002 11:23:49 pm
YLH:
Let`s spare arguing over history and our perceptions of what Punjabis did and didn`t do.
Yeah, it`ll be a good idea to divide up Punjab say many Punjabis. Not for the reasons you state though. These Punjabis feel that once divided the very people blowing the false trumpets of `anti-punjabism` will have nothing to blow at. THere is no such things as `punjabism`- it`s merely a circumstantial event in which the largest province has been able to manipulate itself to enjoy the most spoils. `punjabism` isn`t about a form of provincial nationalism. It`s an abuse of authority.
To me, the `anti-punjabism` brigade is inherently a farce.
A statement-supposition:
The anti-punjab valas NEED punjabi hegemony for their own survival.
In the newspapers, the only people I hear who are against dividing Pakistan into more provinces (particularly Punjab into smaller ones) are those from the smaller provinces.
Among Punjabis who reject the plan, the only criticism I`ve heard is that there will only be more CM`s with more administrative staff etc. thus more expenses for the incompetent rulers.
Perhaps you can point to a Punjabi politician who would not like to see punjab`s majority divided up, but not a single civilian I`ve spoken who was against dividing Punjab and Pakistan into more provinces gave the reason that Punjab`s majority would be compromised.
Let`s spare arguing over history and our perceptions of what Punjabis did and didn`t do.
Yeah, it`ll be a good idea to divide up Punjab say many Punjabis. Not for the reasons you state though. These Punjabis feel that once divided the very people blowing the false trumpets of `anti-punjabism` will have nothing to blow at. THere is no such things as `punjabism`- it`s merely a circumstantial event in which the largest province has been able to manipulate itself to enjoy the most spoils. `punjabism` isn`t about a form of provincial nationalism. It`s an abuse of authority.
To me, the `anti-punjabism` brigade is inherently a farce.
A statement-supposition:
The anti-punjab valas NEED punjabi hegemony for their own survival.
In the newspapers, the only people I hear who are against dividing Pakistan into more provinces (particularly Punjab into smaller ones) are those from the smaller provinces.
Among Punjabis who reject the plan, the only criticism I`ve heard is that there will only be more CM`s with more administrative staff etc. thus more expenses for the incompetent rulers.
Perhaps you can point to a Punjabi politician who would not like to see punjab`s majority divided up, but not a single civilian I`ve spoken who was against dividing Punjab and Pakistan into more provinces gave the reason that Punjab`s majority would be compromised.
#85 Posted by sac on March 7, 2002 9:24:51 pm
Is there any board safe from the litterings of the ylh virus? The guy needs to be put in a crib with an endless supply of gripewater or a pacifier laced with epoxy.
later
-sac
later
-sac
#84 Posted by soysauce on March 7, 2002 9:24:51 pm
I just read the essay. Nice, cogent writing. It gladdens my heart to know that some cops at least have a sense of responsibility. Or maybe they just like to throw their weight around. Did you see the picture on Yahoo of two bikers being punished by cops in ahmedabad for defying the curfew? They were made to hold each others` ears and go up & down like doing sit-ups.
#83 Posted by dullabhatti on March 7, 2002 9:24:51 pm
ylh #81
I totally agree with your assertion about Punjabis selling out to every new invader. In fact I think you are a fine example of it yourself.
Punjabism may not be very close to humanism but so is not Pakistani nationalim, Ataturkism, Mahan Bharatism or any other ism. We all fall short of that ideal. Unfortunately you think that your idealism is some how better and has divine sanction than other peoples`.
The self hatred that some of the Punjabi exhibit and carry with them everywhere sometimes astonishes me.
Rabb ee Rakha
I totally agree with your assertion about Punjabis selling out to every new invader. In fact I think you are a fine example of it yourself.
Punjabism may not be very close to humanism but so is not Pakistani nationalim, Ataturkism, Mahan Bharatism or any other ism. We all fall short of that ideal. Unfortunately you think that your idealism is some how better and has divine sanction than other peoples`.
The self hatred that some of the Punjabi exhibit and carry with them everywhere sometimes astonishes me.
Rabb ee Rakha
#82 Posted by SameerJB on March 7, 2002 9:24:51 pm
rozaiba: No, the Soroush I was talking about is some Iranian Islamist writer in the line of other philosophers like Iqbal and Ali Shariari. Like all of them, keeping all the options open is not a consideration for him either. He is also trying to create a heavenly palace on the ground whose foundations are metaphysical. Little do they realize that foundations in the sky will build air castles only.
I will respond to others later today.
I will respond to others later today.
#81 Posted by sac on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
anNy:
There is a movement back in elite women colleges in Lahore that goes by the name of al-Huda. Seems to be catching like wildfire with YPTs draping themselves with rainbow colored chadors from head to toe. I recommend opening up a Karachi chapter under your tutelage. Poor Karachi wallahs for all their outward sophistication are always behind the curve when it comes to their more `rural` brothers and sisters in Lahore :)
Sameer Sahib:
I have the same question as temporal. Do you think in the long run, not keeping up pretenses is worth it? Or is the jury still out in your case?
later
-sac
There is a movement back in elite women colleges in Lahore that goes by the name of al-Huda. Seems to be catching like wildfire with YPTs draping themselves with rainbow colored chadors from head to toe. I recommend opening up a Karachi chapter under your tutelage. Poor Karachi wallahs for all their outward sophistication are always behind the curve when it comes to their more `rural` brothers and sisters in Lahore :)
Sameer Sahib:
I have the same question as temporal. Do you think in the long run, not keeping up pretenses is worth it? Or is the jury still out in your case?
later
-sac
#80 Posted by ylh on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
The Punjabi Nonsense (Especially for Sameer)
When an upper class English Speaking embodiment of class like Rushdie talks of Secular Humanism, atheism and Islam.. it looks good and tasteful.
When a Punjabi jat speaks of it, it sounds comic. The fact Sameerjb is that the Punjabi mentality has always fueled religious fanaticism. Whereas it is true Lahore has a certain character, but it is also true that worst perpetrators of communal holocausts at Partition were Punjabis and to this day they remain the worst.
I am a Lahori and a Punjabi by any definition, but the fact is that the entire Punjabi identity is crap. Only Punjabis think they have honor. Punjabis were always the first one to sell out to any invader... be it Alexandar, Mahmud, Babur or the British...
When a Punjabi Musalman from Pakistan and a Punjabi Sikh from India get together they usually get along the best. They laugh, they sing, they `Laa Ghut` together... but the fact is that they are mocking Humanity. They are as ready to kill each other as to `Laa Ghut` together... Killing for Punjabis is a stupid little game that they love Playing... don`t mock our intelligence.. Punjabis can possibly be secular, but they will never be humanists... to be a humanist you have to understand the worth of Humanity.
Pakistan`s greatest curse have been the Punjabi Musalmans well except Iqbal I would say... the Punjabis had no tangible role in the Pakistan Movement or the Independence movement even. These people only jumped on the bandwagon after Pakistan was a reality. Since PAKISTAN has been formed, these bigots have unleashed a virulent sunni version of Islam which is more tainted with jat value system than the egalitarianism of Islam. The Punjabis have helped alienate the true pioneers of Pakistan... first they alienated and threw out the Bengalis, the founders of Muslim League and the authors of Lahore of Lahore Resolution, ... now they have managed to alienate the Mohajirs and the Sindhis...
The Good Health of Pakistan and the Good Health of Punjabi culture and community are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. I say divide Punjab into 10 different provinces... Play the siraiki against the Punjabi. Change the name ... Do something.... there is no greater menace... no greater threat to Humanity and Pakistan as Punjab and Punjabism.
Remember the Murderers and Kidnappers of Danny Pearl are also Punjabis!
A Punjabi who hates Punjabiism.
Long Live Pakistan.
When an upper class English Speaking embodiment of class like Rushdie talks of Secular Humanism, atheism and Islam.. it looks good and tasteful.
When a Punjabi jat speaks of it, it sounds comic. The fact Sameerjb is that the Punjabi mentality has always fueled religious fanaticism. Whereas it is true Lahore has a certain character, but it is also true that worst perpetrators of communal holocausts at Partition were Punjabis and to this day they remain the worst.
I am a Lahori and a Punjabi by any definition, but the fact is that the entire Punjabi identity is crap. Only Punjabis think they have honor. Punjabis were always the first one to sell out to any invader... be it Alexandar, Mahmud, Babur or the British...
When a Punjabi Musalman from Pakistan and a Punjabi Sikh from India get together they usually get along the best. They laugh, they sing, they `Laa Ghut` together... but the fact is that they are mocking Humanity. They are as ready to kill each other as to `Laa Ghut` together... Killing for Punjabis is a stupid little game that they love Playing... don`t mock our intelligence.. Punjabis can possibly be secular, but they will never be humanists... to be a humanist you have to understand the worth of Humanity.
Pakistan`s greatest curse have been the Punjabi Musalmans well except Iqbal I would say... the Punjabis had no tangible role in the Pakistan Movement or the Independence movement even. These people only jumped on the bandwagon after Pakistan was a reality. Since PAKISTAN has been formed, these bigots have unleashed a virulent sunni version of Islam which is more tainted with jat value system than the egalitarianism of Islam. The Punjabis have helped alienate the true pioneers of Pakistan... first they alienated and threw out the Bengalis, the founders of Muslim League and the authors of Lahore of Lahore Resolution, ... now they have managed to alienate the Mohajirs and the Sindhis...
The Good Health of Pakistan and the Good Health of Punjabi culture and community are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. I say divide Punjab into 10 different provinces... Play the siraiki against the Punjabi. Change the name ... Do something.... there is no greater menace... no greater threat to Humanity and Pakistan as Punjab and Punjabism.
Remember the Murderers and Kidnappers of Danny Pearl are also Punjabis!
A Punjabi who hates Punjabiism.
Long Live Pakistan.
#79 Posted by rozaiba on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
SAMEER JB:
Not that I have any deep interest in trying to figure out religion for the next twenty years either, but from you post #48, you spoke of some guy named `sorush`. do you mean Sorush Irfani? The guy teaching at NCA in Lahore?
If so, do let me know as I was planning on meeting him soon. here`s my email contact:
rozaiba@hotmail.com
Not that I have any deep interest in trying to figure out religion for the next twenty years either, but from you post #48, you spoke of some guy named `sorush`. do you mean Sorush Irfani? The guy teaching at NCA in Lahore?
If so, do let me know as I was planning on meeting him soon. here`s my email contact:
rozaiba@hotmail.com
#78 Posted by ylh on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
Stuka,
According to Andrew Mango`s `Ataturk`, Kemal Ataturk secrety arrived in Istanbul meeting with American Intelligence officers... I called them CIA on this board.
You are right however about the OSS.
Sincerely
Yasser Hamdani
#77 Posted by temporal on March 6, 2002 5:12:47 pm
sameer #72:
…here and elsewhere…when you reminisce and introspect about your past…angst seems to lurk just under the surface…i detect a certain bitterness…as if you are not at peace with yourself…i hope i am wrong…
…perhaps it is all too easy to scrutinize, debate and shake off the lingering influences of the inherited religion…in the dogmatic and ritualistic sense…but what is your take on the almost unshakeable ‘cultural imprint’ of the inherited religion stamped on one’s psyche?
Soysauce #74:
…very well expressedJ
AnNy:
…your are getting some very interesting feedback…que sera, sera…enjoy your peregrination…bspnd…
regards,
temporal
…here and elsewhere…when you reminisce and introspect about your past…angst seems to lurk just under the surface…i detect a certain bitterness…as if you are not at peace with yourself…i hope i am wrong…
…perhaps it is all too easy to scrutinize, debate and shake off the lingering influences of the inherited religion…in the dogmatic and ritualistic sense…but what is your take on the almost unshakeable ‘cultural imprint’ of the inherited religion stamped on one’s psyche?
Soysauce #74:
…very well expressedJ
AnNy:
…your are getting some very interesting feedback…que sera, sera…enjoy your peregrination…bspnd…
regards,
temporal
#76 Posted by Chotu on March 6, 2002 4:13:27 pm
AnNy:
Let me add my insight & advice too. Change is inevitable, embrace it. However, implement change gracefully, and in complete control. Do not be swept away by change. Also, try to keep some goal ahead of you nearly all the time, so that you don`t get bored in life or caught up with bullshit (very subjective, I know).
Also an observation: no 2 people, personalities and lives are the same. Although Sameersaab has a very interesting history, I don`t believe it applies to you. Find your own truth, whether in your own interpretation of Islam, a combination of some beliefs of Islam and other beliefs that you have learnt to be true or whatever else that you feel is right. Be open to change and evolution, don`t fear thinking outside the box and make your own decisions.
And one last observation: you don`t really need advice, you seem to be doing just fine... just keep listening, thinking, sharing, and making your own decisions i.e. don`t be swayed by personalities, but by ideas.
Good luck.
Let me add my insight & advice too. Change is inevitable, embrace it. However, implement change gracefully, and in complete control. Do not be swept away by change. Also, try to keep some goal ahead of you nearly all the time, so that you don`t get bored in life or caught up with bullshit (very subjective, I know).
Also an observation: no 2 people, personalities and lives are the same. Although Sameersaab has a very interesting history, I don`t believe it applies to you. Find your own truth, whether in your own interpretation of Islam, a combination of some beliefs of Islam and other beliefs that you have learnt to be true or whatever else that you feel is right. Be open to change and evolution, don`t fear thinking outside the box and make your own decisions.
And one last observation: you don`t really need advice, you seem to be doing just fine... just keep listening, thinking, sharing, and making your own decisions i.e. don`t be swayed by personalities, but by ideas.
Good luck.
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