Delhi University Politics

excellent article..hope that we can hear more from you about those days..

Stuka,
I was present when Rajiv Goawami died, I also broke few scooters.
Know this fact: He poured Kerosine over himself with the understanding that his friends would save him in few seconds.
His friends were BehnC@#Ds they left him to die. Everybody who was there would know this.

BTW, did you goto Venkatawara or Deshbandhu?

[Between fear and political correctness, it`s not possible to say anything other than sugary nonsense about Islam,`` said one scholar at an American university who asked not to be named, referring to the threatened violence.]

They threaten violence even in countries without Muslim majorities. We are doomed to be most backward individuals.

#105

[Now that you have figured out Islam is not the Mukammal and Behtareen deen No need to berate Islam. It is the faith of millions in Pakistan. Any such attempt would be counter-productive. Imbibe the best out of its teaching and leave the rest. Use those teachings to further the aims of equality, fraternity and social justice.]

That attitude tells why nothing ever changes in Muslim majority countries. We never dare question fundamentals. It is always ``don`t berate. It would be counter-productive.``

anNy,

You should use your new found enlightenment to a noble end. People like Sameer and others have fled the country. You should become the harbinger of change... change Pakistan.. make it retake the course of Moderation and tolerance... make it a liberal secular Democracy with equal rights for all.

Now that you have figured out Islam is not the Mukammal and Behtareen deen No need to berate Islam. It is the faith of millions in Pakistan. Any such attempt would be counter-productive. Imbibe the best out of its teaching and leave the rest. Use those teachings to further the aims of equality, fraternity and social justice.

I hope to see you as a soldier in the fight for the heart and soul of Pakistan, and not a coward hiding in the suburbs of New York.

Long Live Pakistan

More Fertile Imagination of the South Asian:

``Dude, whatever your deal is, at least accept it. I could care less that you think I`m self righteous, or wear pink saris or listen to Zakir Hussein, or whatever. Your tirade is unattractive, tangential, inaccurate and I don`t have the patience that Dost Mittar obviously has in guiding you along.``

1) Where have I objected to your wearing of Pink Saris? I could care less if you wear a Pink Sari (once upon a time my mother`s favorite dress of choice) or listen to Zakir Husain, a tabla player of rather mediocre quality. I listen to Indian Music, does that mean I am a south asianist?

2) My deal is that whereas the expats of India take every opportunity to berate Pakistan and elevate India, you the Pakistani Ex pats who should, if not berate India, elevate Pakistan are either too busy with your Goody goody `South Asian` nonsense or are too involved in the Islamic Preaching. What about Pakistan?

3) What in my tirade is `inaccurate`. I think my tirade is all together too true and too late. The train has already left. Tonight there is South Asian Unity show in Rutgers, the same South Asian Unity Show I had made a point to include Pakistani Students Association in... but the shameless bigotry of your `South Asian counterparts` from India continues... The only three nations represented in SAUS are Pakistan India and Bangladesh. The 4 smaller nations are no where to be seen. This again gives credence to my theory the whole `South Asian Unity` is another name for `let us undo partition nonsense.

I will make it clear one more time. Pakistan is part of South Asia and I am proud to be a South Asian but not the South Asian Indians want us to be. South Asia to Indians means India... South Asia that I belong to has 7 sovereign distinct nations and several cultures! Therefore if they are going to insist on a 3 Nation Indian South Asia... I will only resist such nonsense. You, Samina Shah, are the pawn in the Indian design. They marginalize our brightest minds in the name of South Asia and Humanism, while continuing to bash Pakistan elsewhere. The INDIAN conception of South Asia is a grand conspiracy against Pakistan.

Long Live Pakistan

temporal: yaar yeh kya mazaq hey. Neither apology asked nor accepted from you - Never. I owe you and Bilal Ahmed a great deal of my growing up at chowk. If anybody, I should actually apologize to you here.

What I should have written in my previous post was actually, ``Angst has been lurking from most of the posts because they are written with win-lose game strategy in mind`` and not, ``nobody complains angst lurking when thousands of posts have been attempts to defeat the opponents....``.

My calling Islam inferior is also like a daisy cutter in my arsenal. I use it only against outright vulgar and nonsense attacks. Other than that it means little beyond my own life and mind. Looking another way, how could I deny myself being a Muslim while considering Islam, the best religion. This would be paradoxical or hypocritical.

I have no doubt that our understanding and mutual respect transcends such minor difference of opinions.

Regards,

Sameer

Saminashah: I agree with you on most issues. It is a great pleasure having a person with higher intellect level and such a clear conscience with powerful reason. Please keep sharing and passing on your knowledge and wisdom to all who are willing to improve their level of understanding. Thanks a lot.

Regards,

Sameer

AnNy: I have already used up my reservoir of apology and thanks leaving nothing for you. Just kidding! You have connected well with diverse people here and this is an asset. It is neither necessary nor important to agree with anything you read here or elsewhere. The point is that you do not reject out of hand and neither sarcastic in disagreeing. It means that it does get to your mind as additional information and then you let your mind decide the weightage or importance of it. Stay focused, prudent and open minded.

Regards,

Sameer

Ylh

re: ``Now coming to this topic of Jinnah/Gandhi debates. I find it rather hypocritical of the self righteous twits like Sameena Shah and Mr.JB not to mention that I never have taken up Gandhi debates, nor have I sought to malign that old`s man`s legacy until I am left with no choice. It is the Indians who make the comparison, Indian who berate the memory of Jinnah and then they expect me to sit around and not show the otherside of the picture. So go to Sulekha.com or whereever... but the fact is no amount of nonsense spouted by you two will stop me from asserting my pride in my nation and its founder both of whom are great and will always be great. Is it a crime to be proud of what you are? So much for the freedom of thought and expression these bigots preach in the first place.``

1. Do explain how we are bigots in commenting that the Jinnah/Gandhi debates have been ongoing since the last two years?

2. Who has prevented you from ``asserting your pride``? Esp. when you yourself have commented on my south asian self definition in a rather one dimensional way?

3. Dude, whatever your deal is, at least accept it. I could care less that you think I`m self righteous, or wear pink saris or listen to Zakir Hussein, or whatever. Your tirade is unattractive, tangential, inaccurate and I don`t have the patience that Dost Mittar obviously has in guiding you along.

For JB the defeatist:

``ISLAMABAD, March 7: President Gen Pervez Musharraf launched here on Thursday a National Policy for Development and Empowerment of Women and promised that womenfolk will ultimately be offered 50 per cent representation in the national and provincial assemblies.

``In the immediate context, it is perhaps difficult for us to concede to the request of the women to offer them 50 per cent seats in the assemblies but ultimately they will have it,`` he added. ``

Difference between you and Mush?

You only talk the talk... he walks the walk.

PS and while others will try to drink out of the Brahmin`s cup, the Brahmin will never drink out of that cup again.

Dulla Bhatti

``Punjabism may not be very close to humanism but so is not Pakistani nationalim, Ataturkism, Mahan Bharatism or any other ism. We all fall short of that ideal. Unfortunately you think that your idealism is some how better and has divine sanction than other peoples`.``

I have not laid any claim to humanism unlike Sameerjb or the Punjabi conference on this board.. I have no time to mince my words and write unfathomable allegories, and I have no respect for flowery language that conceals lack of substance. My words are very clear. Everyone knows where I stand... hence I am not a hypocrite.

I can care less for Humanism, whilst I am laying claim to narrower identities. I care for Pakistani Nationalism, and I do believe the kind of Pakistani nationalism I am advocating can lead to peace in the World eventually, so humanism may just be a useful by product. But I don`t have time for emotional goody goody nonsense. I think one has just about had enough of the humanists... I find the self rightousness of humanists on these boards to be too choking. In essence they too are bigots.

I can care less about Islam, but the fact is that it is the faith of my parents and it is part of my identity whether I like it or not. Sameerjb says spiritually, ritualistically and dogmatically Islam is inferior to other faiths, and I thank God for that fact. Islam in my opinion was a major milestone enroute to rationality which should be the ultimate faith of any society and any culture. Indeed, Islam is the lesser of superstitions... thank God for that. It only means that as Muslims we really are closer to rationalism than other faiths. Let us call spade a spade... I only called Punjabis what they are. I have been more critical of Muslims.

Now coming to this topic of Jinnah/Gandhi debates. I find it rather hypocritical of the self righteous twits like Sameena Shah and Mr.JB not to mention that I never have taken up Gandhi debates, nor have I sought to malign that old`s man`s legacy until I am left with no choice. It is the Indians who make the comparison, Indian who berate the memory of Jinnah and then they expect me to sit around and not show the otherside of the picture. So go to Sulekha.com or whereever... but the fact is no amount of nonsense spouted by you two will stop me from asserting my pride in my nation and its founder both of whom are great and will always be great. Is it a crime to be proud of what you are? So much for the freedom of thought and expression these bigots preach in the first place.



Morality, Humanity, humanism, progress, etc are all undefined abstracts. What is not abstract is the misuse of these words by people like Sameerjb.

Clearly they are using these words to get their `Uloo seedha`. They are selfish people. It is an uphill battle, but somebody has to wage it.. somebody has to defeat the jamaatis creeping up in Pakistan`s society.. someone has to stem the tide of religious bigotry that has masqueraded as Islamic doctrine? But we see these twits running to sanctuary in their new homes in the west. I ask you, are we Pakistanis the step children of God that we should not be saved by our own?

Pakistan was meant to be an egalitarian libertarian progressive state, and it shall be one with or without these twits. Only while they will whine in the west in a failed attempt to sound intellectual, and drink water out of the same mug as the Brahmin, we will unleash great new energies and great new forces... Pakistanis will be able to tell their oppressors to go to hell. While these twits will sip their cofees and point fingers at us from afar and revel in their fake intellectualism, we will build Pakistan as the harbinger of progress and equality for ages.. whilst these twits and cowards will say `Oh jamaatis have taken over Pakistan` ...we will help drive a dagger through the heart of the Jamaati Monster. I shall not be one of the nuts and bolts of the machinery, we shall create new machinery in Pakistan.

So what is Humanity? Humanity is a procession of nations, and the leader in this procession carries the torch of civilization. Humanity can never be one and indivisible. Humanity is not a homogenous collective. To deny our diversity is to crush humanity itself. Undoubtedly humanity will achieve Unity in diversity one day, but we (the Pakistanis) will be the leaders of that diversity.

There are no divine sanctions for this... it is human endeavor, glory and ambition which fuels my belief that my idealism is better than your idealism.

Long Live Pakistan.

I think it should be abundantly clear to everyone now that the problem with East Pakistan going its separate way was NOT Islam or religion but pure and simple Punjabi Ethnic bigotry.

The need to be accepted is so great that it clouts the judgement of the seemingly sane individuals.

Sameerjb, I can assure you that you will not be missed. Thankyou very much for leaving Pakistan.

One day we will drive out the remnants of Punjabi bigotry that has caused the dismemberment of Pakistan in the past and threatens its future.

Long Live Pakistan!

Saminashah

``The Jinnah-Gandhi/Muslim-Hindu saga has left many of us going to Sulekha in crazed desperation...toba toba..``

you cant get away from it on sulekah also. The only safe places nowadays are the food sites. Have been spending time on recipesource.com (well partly due to an idle comment - a home isnt a home till you turn on the oven - but htat is another story). The apples-in-rosepetals sounds great and doable. Indians in my opinion arent risktakers and it shows in their cooking - i mena there is more to it than curry powder - nutmeg, basil leaves, cocoa - possibilities are endless.

chotu, pankaj, soya..thanks for the responses..i `am` trying to not let my parents or other personalities around influence me and questioning things slowly but i am..am in rush abhi...thanks for your reponses..really..

zafar saab, mae aap ko ignore karee hoon..goodbye

sameersaab, im delighted u like me more! i like u very much myself!!:) i would write a detailed reponse..god knows there is much to say about the subject under scrutiny but im very sick right now..throwing up like a sick turkey..also sorry i didnt respond on the other board where u asked bout the conference..lemme tell quick now..its students from all over thr world getting together to talk about why things are this bad, what can be done and why is there such a gap between the west and the muslim world...we plan to go a little beyond the jewish conspiracies and stupid nonthinking muslim bit i think..it should be fun..ppl (students, theatre ppl, journalists) coming down from gaza, ramallah, nigeria, egypt, iran, baagla, britain etc...75 ppl from 10 countries of the world..myself from karachi, one person each from isloo, lahore and peshawar make up the pakistani troupe..i leave for islamabad in 5 hours (and really should be packing) and england tonight..bbc is covering the event so if u see me waving to u on t.v, wave riiight back:)...pls pray all goes well and i dont die throwing up in the plane

t,

i think some of sameersaabs anger comes from the stance of the other...what do u do when the other chap is just not willing to listen? reasoning tau kya the other view point is not supposed to exist only...and in the case of somebody being stupid enought to do so, khayaal rakhiyae warna tayaar rahiyae :) u remeber those studnets u filmed at the islamic studies centre? how they were just NOT thinking and talking like robots? and how the teacher as we walked out told me in a very snide and somewhat threatening manner that aakhir islaam sab sae behtareen aur mukammal deen hae aur jo iss kae against bolae ga ussae qanoon bhi daikhae ga aur khuda bhi...and i smiled and nodded knowing she was refering to my little speech on the blasphemy law? u remember how upset u also got in the middle of the discussion? those ppl dont think..theyre like sheeps..and to have been one of them and then realizing one fine day must be one sad memory for him..ask me..heck, u KNOW.

semi:

theyve cracked down on mqm at KU, jaamtiislaami is still going very strong

sac:

i wrote u a long post yesterday telling you that farhat hashmi started off from karachi only (ooopsy daisy) and al-huda has the strongest follwing in khi and that saying things like pyt`s will get u in trouble and that i dont wear rainbow colored anythings but cant find the damned post..bottom line was, someone needs to spank u real bad

kisses everyone! pls pray all goes well and miss me lots!

re: spout

{if a potential criminal or ``lost soul`` finds solace in religion and spirituality and develops a direction in life, what`s the harm in it?}

...what is the harm in it? look around the world with open eyes and count the number of deaths that have resulted from religious violence...that`s the HARM in it...

{some people find peace in meditation, some in praying five times a day, some in going to the local mandir for pooja, some in devouring Godiva chocolates. what makes one different than the other? }

i`ve never heard of a group of Godiva chocolate fanatics go around killing people or becoming a civil nuisance....but i have heard of religious nuts do both....that is the difference...

{as long as the religion is kept to oneself and not forced upon others, it can do good.}

and how often does that happen? hardly ever...even in the US, we have to hear Bush open his trap and declare ``God Bless America`` ... what utter nonsense ... HE was elected to run and bless America ... if a nuclear attack is imminent, i don`t want this moron sitting around with his bible praying for jesus to tell him what to do ... i want him to use his brain to make the decision on how to respond ...

{just like you shouldn`t let religion blind you, you shouldn`t let your anti-religious stand blind you. both extremes are dumb and dangerous. }

my anti-religious stand is dumb only b.c. too many people lack the education and thinking ability to know right from wrong...hence if you take away their religion, they might degenerate into cave-dwelling barbarians...but the solution to that is to educate them, not feed them goo about prophets and fantastic creatures and heaven and hell...

SameerJB#90:

…oh brother!…(shaking me head)…quite an unexpected reaction from you…first off…I apologise…did not mean to rankle you…

…asked those queries only because I knew you must have pondered the issues in your usual analytical mode and I was interested in your feedback re: the ‘cultural’ baggage we all carry…am afraid was totally misunderstood…khair…

rgds,

t

Sameer,

Forgive my intrusion into this thread, but I was struck by some of the remarks in your last post, and so very little moves me lately...

``It is not their concern if a hefty chunk of the cream of a nation is being turned into mindless flock of sheep.``

Hear hear.

`` Why shouldn’t my angst be lurking in my posts dealing with a very sensitive area close to the root cause of several of our predicaments and problems?``

This is an extremely interesting question, particularly when no-one (on Chowk, anyway, besides a few lone interactors) will deign to acknowledge the very legitimate critiques made of Islamic interpretations. It seems to be much easier to squawk accusations of disloyalty to religion, ethnic identity, and the various and sundry defamations of political and sexual orientations....it reminds me of the Ionesco play-theres a rhino charging through the town, but no-one will acknowledge it...

And I second the anger. I feel as if I have been betrayed, lied to and manipulated by the excuses, myths and justifications for the behavior and values, that pass for religion nowadays. I remember joining my university`s Palestinian org., an intellectual and activist group because my esteemed mother (Ummi Jaan to you, Ali)

raised me to be politically conscious. I had understood it to be a ``Muslim`` dynamic. After two monthes of working in the group and doing a great deal of research, it became clear that the variables were much more complex. At the same time I was reading essays by women Iranian socialist intellectuals analysing the conditions leading up to Khomeini`s takeover. The use of the chador was completely demystified. among other phenomena.

There should be space for people to ask questions and dialogue about this. I appreciated your and anNy`s posts.

``I see nobody complaining about lurking angst when more than ten articles, with generating average of 400 responses for each of them and dealing with a heap of rubble in some obscure place called Ayodhya. I see no complaining about lurking angst in never ending Jinnah-Gandhi and Hindu-Muslim comparisons and permanent discussion about Kashmir, Kargill and war details with several resident experts.``

Goddess have mercy; I have been far too polite to interfere in the boy`s war room. The Jinnah-Gandhi/Muslim-Hindu saga has left many of us going to Sulekha in crazed desperation...toba toba..

The rest of your post was fascinating. Please continue.

best

sac, temporal and Romair: Very much like women’s issues, not many people took interest in discussing politics of hatred at college and universities. It is not their concern if a hefty chunk of the cream of a nation is being turned into mindless flock of sheep. But when I described my personal experience, in line with the topic of this thread, I was asked personal questions that have nothing to do with the topic. Why shouldn’t my angst be lurking in my posts dealing with a very sensitive area close to the root cause of several of our predicaments and problems? I see nobody complaining about lurking angst when more than ten articles, with generating average of 400 responses for each of them and dealing with a heap of rubble in some obscure place called Ayodhya. I see no complaining about lurking angst in never ending Jinnah-Gandhi and Hindu-Muslim comparisons and permanent discussion about Kashmir, Kargill and war details with several resident experts. When I try to hit below the belt at the common denominator in all these troubles, the anguish and anger is displayed independent of the factors and conditions, as if it is a constant. In more polite English it is called taking out of context and then beating the drum with it.

No I never applied to any military school and yes, I will keep focusing on the root causes - the common denominators - with as analytically as my mind is capable of doing it. I can’t wait to read the next barrage of questioning with ylh possibly inquiring about my anatomy.

It is my conviction and not any compulsion that Islam is a problem and not a solution. Too much input is gone into the making of this conviction, mostly science and god, analytical thinking based on social and economic indicators, history, comparison with others under similar conditions, studying other philosophies, current geo-political situation and least of all personal experiences, although personal experiences instigated me to explore and compare with other philosophies with keeping all options open. It is also my conviction that Islam is inferior as a religion on both ritualistic and dogmatic accounts to many other religions.

So where do I stand with cultural part of Islam in my psyche? Or why not pretence due to any of the social reasons? My personal social condition is the most flexible one. I am not constrained by any emotional bond to any Muslim in Diaspora where a compromise or pretence is a better alternative. It is actually quite the opposite.

Anyone still interested in discussing students’ politics?

P.S. Romair, Please compare the diversity of topics of my few articles at chowk with anyother writer at chowk. They range from game theory, to Aryan Migration, to mass rebellions against invaders, to women`s rights and obsession with....... perhaps you see more Islam bashing because you wish to notice it more than other topics and issues.

Stuka - now that you`ve tantalised us with this, when is the Rath Yathra piece going to be presented? And if you experienced it as a light thing, then WRITE it that way - no point re-casting your recollections in a more sombre mood due to hindsight.

anNy - Relax, Madame. Question away, but why get unhappy? Allah Mian ne aap ko aqal diya tho iss hi liye, na?

Raveena #67, ``.you need religion to tell you not to shoot someone in the head? not to steal? or cause harm to people who have caused you no harm?...isn`t that just common sense?...``

you`re right, but some people benefit from the discipline of religion. it`s not a matter of religion telling a person that murder is a sin.

if a potential criminal or ``lost soul`` finds solace in religion and spirituality and develops a direction in life, what`s the harm in it? some people find peace in meditation, some in praying five times a day, some in going to the local mandir for pooja, some in devouring Godiva chocolates. what makes one different than the other? as long as the religion is kept to oneself and not forced upon others, it can do good.

just like you shouldn`t let religion blind you, you shouldn`t let your anti-religious stand blind you. both extremes are dumb and dangerous.

YLH:

Let`s spare arguing over history and our perceptions of what Punjabis did and didn`t do.

Yeah, it`ll be a good idea to divide up Punjab say many Punjabis. Not for the reasons you state though. These Punjabis feel that once divided the very people blowing the false trumpets of `anti-punjabism` will have nothing to blow at. THere is no such things as `punjabism`- it`s merely a circumstantial event in which the largest province has been able to manipulate itself to enjoy the most spoils. `punjabism` isn`t about a form of provincial nationalism. It`s an abuse of authority.

To me, the `anti-punjabism` brigade is inherently a farce.

A statement-supposition:

The anti-punjab valas NEED punjabi hegemony for their own survival.

In the newspapers, the only people I hear who are against dividing Pakistan into more provinces (particularly Punjab into smaller ones) are those from the smaller provinces.

Among Punjabis who reject the plan, the only criticism I`ve heard is that there will only be more CM`s with more administrative staff etc. thus more expenses for the incompetent rulers.

Perhaps you can point to a Punjabi politician who would not like to see punjab`s majority divided up, but not a single civilian I`ve spoken who was against dividing Punjab and Pakistan into more provinces gave the reason that Punjab`s majority would be compromised.

Is there any board safe from the litterings of the ylh virus? The guy needs to be put in a crib with an endless supply of gripewater or a pacifier laced with epoxy.

later

-sac

I just read the essay. Nice, cogent writing. It gladdens my heart to know that some cops at least have a sense of responsibility. Or maybe they just like to throw their weight around. Did you see the picture on Yahoo of two bikers being punished by cops in ahmedabad for defying the curfew? They were made to hold each others` ears and go up & down like doing sit-ups.

ylh #81

I totally agree with your assertion about Punjabis selling out to every new invader. In fact I think you are a fine example of it yourself.

Punjabism may not be very close to humanism but so is not Pakistani nationalim, Ataturkism, Mahan Bharatism or any other ism. We all fall short of that ideal. Unfortunately you think that your idealism is some how better and has divine sanction than other peoples`.

The self hatred that some of the Punjabi exhibit and carry with them everywhere sometimes astonishes me.

Rabb ee Rakha

rozaiba: No, the Soroush I was talking about is some Iranian Islamist writer in the line of other philosophers like Iqbal and Ali Shariari. Like all of them, keeping all the options open is not a consideration for him either. He is also trying to create a heavenly palace on the ground whose foundations are metaphysical. Little do they realize that foundations in the sky will build air castles only.

I will respond to others later today.

anNy:

There is a movement back in elite women colleges in Lahore that goes by the name of al-Huda. Seems to be catching like wildfire with YPTs draping themselves with rainbow colored chadors from head to toe. I recommend opening up a Karachi chapter under your tutelage. Poor Karachi wallahs for all their outward sophistication are always behind the curve when it comes to their more `rural` brothers and sisters in Lahore :)

Sameer Sahib:

I have the same question as temporal. Do you think in the long run, not keeping up pretenses is worth it? Or is the jury still out in your case?

later

-sac

The Punjabi Nonsense (Especially for Sameer)

When an upper class English Speaking embodiment of class like Rushdie talks of Secular Humanism, atheism and Islam.. it looks good and tasteful.

When a Punjabi jat speaks of it, it sounds comic. The fact Sameerjb is that the Punjabi mentality has always fueled religious fanaticism. Whereas it is true Lahore has a certain character, but it is also true that worst perpetrators of communal holocausts at Partition were Punjabis and to this day they remain the worst.

I am a Lahori and a Punjabi by any definition, but the fact is that the entire Punjabi identity is crap. Only Punjabis think they have honor. Punjabis were always the first one to sell out to any invader... be it Alexandar, Mahmud, Babur or the British...

When a Punjabi Musalman from Pakistan and a Punjabi Sikh from India get together they usually get along the best. They laugh, they sing, they `Laa Ghut` together... but the fact is that they are mocking Humanity. They are as ready to kill each other as to `Laa Ghut` together... Killing for Punjabis is a stupid little game that they love Playing... don`t mock our intelligence.. Punjabis can possibly be secular, but they will never be humanists... to be a humanist you have to understand the worth of Humanity.

Pakistan`s greatest curse have been the Punjabi Musalmans well except Iqbal I would say... the Punjabis had no tangible role in the Pakistan Movement or the Independence movement even. These people only jumped on the bandwagon after Pakistan was a reality. Since PAKISTAN has been formed, these bigots have unleashed a virulent sunni version of Islam which is more tainted with jat value system than the egalitarianism of Islam. The Punjabis have helped alienate the true pioneers of Pakistan... first they alienated and threw out the Bengalis, the founders of Muslim League and the authors of Lahore of Lahore Resolution, ... now they have managed to alienate the Mohajirs and the Sindhis...

The Good Health of Pakistan and the Good Health of Punjabi culture and community are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. I say divide Punjab into 10 different provinces... Play the siraiki against the Punjabi. Change the name ... Do something.... there is no greater menace... no greater threat to Humanity and Pakistan as Punjab and Punjabism.

Remember the Murderers and Kidnappers of Danny Pearl are also Punjabis!

A Punjabi who hates Punjabiism.

Long Live Pakistan.

SAMEER JB:

Not that I have any deep interest in trying to figure out religion for the next twenty years either, but from you post #48, you spoke of some guy named `sorush`. do you mean Sorush Irfani? The guy teaching at NCA in Lahore?

If so, do let me know as I was planning on meeting him soon. here`s my email contact:

rozaiba@hotmail.com

Stuka,

According to Andrew Mango`s `Ataturk`, Kemal Ataturk secrety arrived in Istanbul meeting with American Intelligence officers... I called them CIA on this board.

You are right however about the OSS.

Sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

sameer #72:

…here and elsewhere…when you reminisce and introspect about your past…angst seems to lurk just under the surface…i detect a certain bitterness…as if you are not at peace with yourself…i hope i am wrong…

…perhaps it is all too easy to scrutinize, debate and shake off the lingering influences of the inherited religion…in the dogmatic and ritualistic sense…but what is your take on the almost unshakeable ‘cultural imprint’ of the inherited religion stamped on one’s psyche?


Soysauce #74:

…very well expressedJ


AnNy:

…your are getting some very interesting feedback…que sera, sera…enjoy your peregrination…bspnd…

regards,

temporal

AnNy:

Let me add my insight & advice too. Change is inevitable, embrace it. However, implement change gracefully, and in complete control. Do not be swept away by change. Also, try to keep some goal ahead of you nearly all the time, so that you don`t get bored in life or caught up with bullshit (very subjective, I know).

Also an observation: no 2 people, personalities and lives are the same. Although Sameersaab has a very interesting history, I don`t believe it applies to you. Find your own truth, whether in your own interpretation of Islam, a combination of some beliefs of Islam and other beliefs that you have learnt to be true or whatever else that you feel is right. Be open to change and evolution, don`t fear thinking outside the box and make your own decisions.

And one last observation: you don`t really need advice, you seem to be doing just fine... just keep listening, thinking, sharing, and making your own decisions i.e. don`t be swayed by personalities, but by ideas.

Good luck.

Ylh,

``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war``

What is the quote, Oh enlightened one!

#65 Stuka

That was a couragious post. I salute you!

In the context of what has happened in Gujarat, some men feed the beast within them by doing nothing.

#51 anNy

What you`re going thru i believe is universal. When you are completely dependent on your parents and family, there`s a great desire to please them, so you are more christian/hindu/muslim than they are and it gives them the feeling that they are doing a fine job of bringing you up. Where you`re now you`re questioning everything because you are independent (in spirit and emotion) and you want to examine your life. Late teens to early twenties is when rebellion starts and you strike your own way. Some get sucked back into being good c/h/m, etc., and others find their way. They get busy with their career, chasing lovers, trying to fashion a niche for themselves and so on. There`s a chance that you will completely bust out of the early influences in your life. But many folks, in their middle ages, try to strike a balance between their past and their present. Some hark back to their past with a vengence because they don`t believe the presence is not their making. (I`d say the hindutva nuts belong in this category. There may be other religious equivalents to this also.) If you never left your religion, past, chances are that in your late years you will become a more devout c/h/m, etc. I see this happen often enough. As to why religion is so attractive, it comes with a definitiveness, a certainty attached to it. In uncertain times, religion is a very convenient crutch.

(I`m making sure that my daughter is not brainwashed with any ideology. I want her to find her own way, whatever that may be. I just want her to have a strong confidence in herself.)

anNy:

“also sameersaab..your brothers in jamamatiness threatened me just today, less than 2 hours back..`khayaal rakhiyae warna phir tayaar rahiyae`..excuse me pls, if i have the sh!t beat out of them”

...have the shi t beaten out of them and fast….DON’T take their bull…(not that you would:))...i don’t know about karachi uni., but in punjab university they’re expelling these damn jihadis left and right…

SameerJB: Your replies are quite interesting. I had always wondered why you held such extremist views about religion. Perhaps now I understand. You were at one extreme at one stage of your life. Now you have gone to the other extreme to make up for your early days. This is like women who hang out with the wrong man/men, and then start hating all men, as a whole. Perhaps a middle of the road balanced approach is the best. Extremism in any direction is dangerous.

On the whole, it is your own business. But you need to stop blaming others and religion for your childhood problems. The actual problem was wrong decision making by you.

One thing I have always argued against is the role of religious fanatics and secular fanatics in our society. Both are extrimists and dangerous. And both try to gain their legitimacy through their addiction to religion. They spend their whole lives concentrating on it, using it furthur their own goal. One group attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``love`` for religion. The other attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``hate`` for religion.

In this hatred for each other, both groups completely lose sight of real concept of goodness and badness. The religionatics are willing to accept a corrupt rapist as thier leader as long as he proposes some sort of a Shariah. While the secularitics will support a corrupt rapist as their leader as long as he is a vocal critic of Shariah and of mullahs. Religion is the only identity of these two groups. Both at the opposite end of the spectrum, however. Both have a small peanut gallery that follows them diligently. I think if both groups stopped discussing religion as their respective solution and problem of mankind, the world would be a much better place. However, if they did that, they would lose their popularity with their small but dedicated audience.

My advice to you (if you want to take it) is to stop your obsession with religion. Don`t look at religion and the religious leaders as the cause of all of Pakistan`s problems. They aren`t. They are a cause of a small percentage. Everyone doesn`t throw intestines out on the street like you did. There are many hygenic Muslims also. Don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just throw your own bathwater out.

Don`t blame Islam and everyone who choses to follow it for the wrong decisions you made early in your life. Some of us were intelligent enough to see Jamaat-i-Islami for what it is, and not join it. If it has espoused such hatred inside you, against anyone (including Mullahs), then I am afraid it has succeeded in controlling your life, even now.

You are quite an intelligent person (you won`t find me saying this about too many people on this site; not even about myself). You are wasting your intelligent mind in your obsession with religion. Use your mind towards other constructive issues like tackling feudalism, social cohesion (figuring out ways for religious and non-religious Pakistanis living together). Any hate-based approach for or against religion is equally bad. Your stance has been that people should stop obsessing with religion. You may find that if you yourself stop mentioning religion in every comment, others will stop discussing it with you, also. However, of all the repliers on this site, your replies probably contain amongst the highest usage of the word, ``Islam.``

Now, if I could only figure out why you hate the military, so much. Were you rejected by any of the military academies as a teenager :-)

Dear AnNy: I wish I had the power or formula to protect you from self proclaimed thekedars of Islamic ethics and morality - the Jamaatias. If I had any hope for changing the attitude of Islam and Islamists in Pakistan, I would have certainly remained within the fold and worked from within. It was utter bankrupcy of the Islam inspired machismo male attitude that left me with no choice but kicking it out of my mind, heart and door.

It is much deep rooted in our society than many of us are ready to acknowledge, often using their election performance as a guage of their influence. I laughed when I read posts at chowk blaming ISI for doing this or that and many Pakistanis tending to believe that Musharraf will be able to eradicate Islamists from the society or ISI. It is not ISI alone. Former Jamaatias with college and university education have infiltrated almost every branch of power and influence. They are not ISI or working for any intelligence agencies, they are spies of Allah. All they have to do is look the other way when Jamaatias or other Islamists carry out illegal acts of violence or being disrespectful of the laws of the land. ISI may be very powerful in setting many events in motion but underneath a whole army of Allah is willing partner to Islamists and Fundamentalists activites.

I think I like you a tad more after reading your post #51 because you are at least on the right path. You are questioning in your own mind about the reason, importance, costs and effects of obsession of Jamaatias and Jamaatia-likes with nonsensical and bizarre Islamic moral and ethics codes related to women. Isn`t this what Socrates said 2500 years ago? Think and question. Just thinking and questioning sets you apart from the flock of sheeps of Allah who accept everything in the name of absolute submission.

Few days ago, I suggested to you that the most important thing in your life is yourself. Call it self love or loving the self but it is a nice principle in combination with humanism. If you feel more comfortable without covering elbows, so be it. Why should you be wrapped in a white blanket in the humid, tropical-like weather of Karachi and profusely sweating, literally, in the name of religion.

Myths are powerful ideas. They give a sense of belonging in tribal sense. Many nations and tribes coalesce around native myths. But taking myths of other people and thumbing down the throat is bound to be a constant source of friction and irritation within society with absolutely no rewards. What a pity! Hoping for fruition of Islamic system is better than Islamic system itself (Pakistan better than Taliban) and not hoping for fruition is much better than fruition in this case (secularism better than Islamic system).

dost-mittar and Stuka: Thanks for the complements. Punjabi hoaN da kujh te faida hey. Musalaman hoaN da kee?

Ah, the battle for anNy`s mind has begun...

For my part, I`ll quote Yogi Berra: ``When you come to the fork in the road, take it.``

re: ylh

{{You know you are a fundamentalist Hindu Bigot and thats about it.}}

bacchey, itna gussaa kyon? (i`d say it in arabic so you could understand it better, but i know only 3 languages, and arabic isn`t one of them.)

YLH

``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war. ``

That can`t be true. The CIA did not even exist before WW-2, forget WW1. The predecessor of the CIA was the OSS headed by an Irish American called ``Wild Bull`` Donovan.

re: pankaj

{{Thus I favor rligion only till it inculcates moral values in you like honesty, truthfullness etc.}}

....you need religion to tell you not to shoot someone in the head? not to steal? or cause harm to people who have caused you no harm?...isn`t that just common sense?...if you are an educated person living in a civilized society, you don`t even have to know whether it is `right` or `wrong` as long as you understand that it will hurt you to hurth others...

Ylh:

You seem to be in a minority of one. So I think your viewpoint can be safely ignored.

SameerJB:

What a marvellous post. At least you have the excuse of coming from a conservative family, and your religion meant something to you.

In my case, I come from a liberal background and religion was there but not in abundance. I was communal through and through. My own religion did not mean much to me. But the feeling of my community being under siege which was fed by a lot of propaganda, created a feeling of immense hatred in me. Honestly, I have to be very careful even now, because I know the beast is within me. It was not individual Muslims that I hated. In fact the few I know I genuinely liked. It was the faceless Muslim, the traitor, the pillager, that image which scared me, and made it easier to hate.

It`s almost funny. I was an upper caste Hindu, kinda like the WASPs here, and yet I had this feeling of being the victim. The persecuted one. For me coming to America was a blessing. The diversity of people I have met, and the rewards of keeping a somewhat open mind, have really enriched my experience.

But I am very aware of one thing. It is easy to fall in this trap of blame and hate. I am still quite aware of my weaknesses in putting things in black and white. As I see it, awareness is half the battle one. The other half is a much longer slower process.

Binifer: You lived in Boston? Where?

The city has always been known as the ``Hub`` which is short for Hub of the Universe. An ode to Boston :

Hail the City of Boston

The City of Brahmins and Scrod

Where the Cabots talk only to the Lowells

And the Lowells talk only to God.:)

Rsaxena,

Don`t give atheists a bad name by associating your sorry ass with them. You know you are a fundamentalist Hindu Bigot and thats about it.

anNy,

There are problems with every faith. I know that most of my friends and myself are mostly `cultural` muslims so to speak. Whatever divinity there is in it, and I am certainly not an atheist, Islam in of itself was ideology that Muhammad used to motivate the Arab people into creating their own destiny and becoming one of the most successful empires of Medieval times.

In any event having doubts is never a bad thing. Infact Iqbal maintains that to get to `Illa` you have to go through `La`. Ofcourse much like you I still am stuck in illa ... not so much as a higher power... but as in the religion itself.

Stuka,

Precisely!

Bong Dongs,

You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war.

anNy

``if she`s too tired at the end of a 12 hour day working upon one sculpture after the other and wants to sleep and misses namaaz, why will she go to hell? its not fair...WHY explain to me is music haraam..what bad can enjoying oneself and being transported to another world (nasha if u will)do if im not harming anybody? you have no idea how difficult it is even typing out this stuff...ill probably go to hell for this..is it because of something else?

``

You are asking yourself the right questions and one day you will find the answers yourself. Basically, there are two aspects of any religion: 1. an emphasis on a universal set of human values and

2. rituals, conventions, observances associated with it which are often a function of the culture and environment a religion was founded.

The first aspect is philosophical emphasizing morality in human life, and generally holds for all times. The second aspect is strongly time and situation dependent and subject to the influence of environmental variables on original conception of a religion. First aspect is usually common to most of the religions since almost all religions glorify honesty, truth etc. The differences between the religions are with regard to second aspect which is a cultural variable. Thus Hinduism glorifies the rivers Ganges and Indus since it evolved on the banks of these rivers while Islamic books carry with them an unmistakable impression of mores and traditions of a desert civilization. While a limit of four wives, no rate of interest etc may have been progressive and beneficial in a traditional Arab society of seventh century, their utility in modern times is questionable, at best. Similar points can be made about Hinduism and any other religion. Thus I favor rligion only till it inculcates moral values in you like honesty, truthfullness etc. but I disregard any attempt by religion to control my personal and public life that has little bearing on morality.

In my own code of morality, an act is immoral only if it hurts the interest of others and seriously interferes with their exercise of fundamental rights. Thus drinking in private and sleeping over it is not immoral, but drinking followed by beating your wife is. Similarly it is none of the other people`s business to object on what you wear as it doesn`t hurt them or violates their rights.

anNy

``if she`s too tired at the end of a 12 hour day working upon one sculpture after the other and wants to sleep and misses namaaz, why will she go to hell? its not fair...WHY explain to me is music haraam..what bad can enjoying oneself and being transported to another world (nasha if u will)do if im not harming anybody? you have no idea how difficult it is even typing out this stuff...ill probably go to hell for this..is it because of something else?

``

You are asking yourself the right questions and one day you will find the answers yourself. Basically, there are two aspects of any religion: 1. an emphasis on a universal set of human values and

2. rituals, conventions, observances associated with it which are often a function of the culture and environment a religion was founded.

The first aspect is philosophical emphasizing morality in human life, and generally holds for all times. The second aspect is strongly time and situation dependent and subject to the influence of environmental variables on original conception of a religion. First aspect is usually common to most of the religions since almost all religions glorify honesty, truth etc. The differences between the religions are with regard to second aspect which is a cultural variable. Thus Hinduism glorifies the rivers Ganges and Indus since it evolved on the banks of these rivers while Islamic books carry with them an unmistakable impression of mores and traditions of a desert civilization. While a limit of four wives, no rate of interest etc may have been progressive and beneficial in a traditional Arab society of seventh century, their utility in modern times is questionable, at best. Similar points can be made about Hinduism and any other religion. Thus I favor rligion only till it inculcates moral values in you like honesty, truthfullness etc. but I disregard any attempt by religion to control my personal and public life that has little bearing on morality.

In my own code of morality, an act is immoral only if it hurts the interest of others and seriously interferes with their exercise of fundamental rights. Thus drinking in private and sleeping over it is not immoral, but drinking followed by beating your wife is. Similarly it is none of the people`s business to object on what you wear as it doesn`t hurt them or violates their rights.

Shashi Tharoor took a lot of innuendo that he got from his amazingly excellent Maloo connections in Delhi, wrote a few funny books which never really made him too famous and now hobnobs with the high & mighty everywhere.

And to think that he, too, was unable to find the time-table in First Year.

Speeds, was that you?

re: anNy #51

...welcome to the atheists club, where there are no silly rituals and where prophets, supreme beings, hell, and heaven are left where they belong - in the comic books...

re: binifer

{Maybe its just you babe}

perhaps...or maybe i keep runing into your friends..

btw, ali2 had a message for you on the other board...i dare not repeat it, lest it `prove` to you that i`m really ali2

re: banjaara

{{Hey Don Juan ! what happened to all the scandinavian blonds and the Venezulan beauties

who are always stalking you or was that all

your fertile imagination ;)}}

a) get a sense of humor

b) don`t mix up cause and effect

RSaxena # 49

[....i guess i always go to the wrong universities, take the wrong classes, join the wrong firms, and get the wrong seat on airplanes...because invariably there are only mean, nerdy girls everywhere i go...]

Hey Don Juan ! what happened to all the scandinavian blonds and the Venezulan beauties

who are always stalking you or was that all

your fertile imagination ;)

Don`t be upset.Someday the train WILL be late ;)

Take care.

Dear Yasser . . . did your Pakistani Nationalist character get totally submerged by, say, exposure and involvement with the USofA? Or at chowk.com? Why do you even think that Indians or others (on this website or elswhere) wish to consume your Nationalism?

Please, if you don`t mind, grant everybody atleast as much intelligence as you.

regards/Veeresh

ps: You & I and just a very few of the others use our real names here . . . isn`t that a beginning?

Saxxy thing

(....i guess i always go to the wrong universities, take the wrong classes, join the wrong firms, and get the wrong seat on airplanes...because invariably there are only mean, nerdy girls everywhere i go...)

Maybe its just you babe

Stuka

This was well written and funny by turn. Boston is the Hub of the Universe? Strange that, lived there for 2 years and didn`t know.

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Sameersaab

you were lucky in being able to run off to the u.s as you turned non muslim...iv just now started doubting all iv been reading, saying praying and doing these last 20 years and have no place to talk about the doubts i feel..i know if i tell my ppl not to sacrafice all those poor goats because its unfair and just not nice ill be treated to a little lecture on abraham and ismail and if i persist, everyone will be terribly upset...insisting that the muslims world was as messed as it was because of no reason but their own idiocies caused so many brows furoing in the house, its downright scary..breaking out of conditioning is not easy sameersaab but after that, questioning all the conditioning is even more sad..because absolutely almost everything one has learnt all along is a lot of (i dont know the word here..farce?) once you strip away the sacredness and religiosness (if thats a word)

you say youre from an ultra conservative family, so am i...ultra ultra conservative...u think it is a result of excessive faith that does this? its strange because just as soon a si started thinkng at 13, 14 i took to my parents ways with a vengeance..namaz, roza, sawaab, mustahib, haraam- the whole nine yards...or is it a result of my age? a few more friends are going through the same doubts..a lot of things are making no sense..almost all of us are in our late teens or then early 20`s..everuone is very happy with where we are, what we have and know what we want to do but this basic thing, our faith is causing anxiety..especially myself since im this smartass who took to islam with great force a few years ago, insisting nobody around me drink, wear besharam clothes and started carrying a dupatta on my head because it appeared the right thing to do...got carried away with the niceness, symbolism of it all..now im stuck..what difference does it make if my best friend chooses to get a beer while i sip coke if he isnt harming anyone? whats wrong with my friends wearing clothes that bare her arms and shows little cleavage if she feels comfy that way?.if she`s too tired at the end of a 12 hour day working upon one sculpture after the other and wants to sleep and misses namaaz, why will she go to hell? its not fair...WHY explain to me is music haraam..what bad can enjoying oneself and being transported to another world (nasha if u will)do if im not harming anybody? you have no idea how difficult it is even typing out this stuff...ill probably go to hell for this..is it because of something else?

i wnat to know why only some of us are experiencing this...backgrounds? that couldnt be because we come from varied places...also, a lot of those around us from same backgrounds are not bothered..same age bracket..why are we plagued with all this when a great many are not bothered? can u pls try explaining keeping in mind your nonmuslimness..i would really appreciate an answer

also sameersaab..your brothers in jamamatiness threatened me just today, less than 2 hours back..`khayaal rakhiyae warna phir tayaar rahiyae`..excuse me pls, if i have the sh!t beat out of them

Semipreciousme:

Stuka:

``Why would you not find it surprising that Sameer was a Jamaati?``

...smt along the lines of what prem was trying to say....

``BTW, the fruit (bananas) were for us. They are the cheapest fruit, and the guys collecting money for us wanted to save as much as possible for their own Chinese food and Kingfisher Beer.``

...whew....and here you had me worried that the policewallahs could be bought of so cheaply....:)

re: stuka

{{They don`t go to Delhi University though. Those girls go to Leftist Bastions such as Jawaharlal Nehru Univ, where elections issues are as vague as Support for Sandinistas in Nicaragua etc etc.}}

....i guess i always go to the wrong universities, take the wrong classes, join the wrong firms, and get the wrong seat on airplanes...because invariably there are only mean, nerdy girls everywhere i go...

In my previous post, I described a brief account of my contributions to the shredding of the fabric of Pakistani society. I carefully omitted wevere events leading to permanent scars on the face of our society. In addition to myself, who and what should I blame for young and tender minds drowning in the cesspool filled with filth, cognition, revelation and delusions but with rosy outlook.

Growing up in an ultraconservative family where religion not only cut into basic necessities so that family can kill a fat goat every year and throw intestine and stomach out on the street for wandering dogs and cats but also provided an excuse for the failures to provide decent living by making right priorities. While we suffered, our neighbors cheered and respected us for being an honest, Islamic, sharif, imandaar family - in effect telling us to keep this sh1t up. So we did. We started killing two goats instead of one following a promotion of my father. Fortunately his dream of going to Mecca came after his retirement and I killed his dream by flatly refusing to contribute.

Jamaat-e-Islami and its student organ Islami Jamiaat-e-Tuliba are very well organized parties and represent lot more students than their percent of vote in the general elections. JI was a lackey of King Faisal (and his father) of Saudi Arabia. Saudis financial help was most instrumental for JI to follow its doctrine of Islami nizam. Saudis helped promote Maudoodi as great Islamic philosopher, helped him set up printing press, weekly and monthly magazines and pamphlets. JI strength was among educated people and students. All this plus being an immigrant from India made him quite popular in Karachi. Most of the students addicted to JI philosophy remained Islamists in practical life as army officers, police officers, Pakistan civil service officials etc. Personally I had been treated favorably many times by these old Jamaatias. They are loyal to Pakistan but their loyalty is secondary to political Islam.

IJT provided me the other non-ritualistic part of Islam which I did not experience being Muslim at family level, as I stated earlier it was mostly ritualistic adherence. Now I was well on my to completing my experience with Islam - helping run JI election campaign, carrying pistol and occasionally firing it in the air with Aaal-o-Akbar shouts, taking part in anti- ZA Bhutto movement and celebrating his overthrow, collecting money for Afghan Jihad to making lists of Ahmedis in the university.

It was chemistry (science) plus having the wholesome experience of Islam for 20+ years that I started having doubts about the existance of god. So I started taking interest in reading literature, poetry, few beers and lady friends.

It was not easy to get rid of addiction to Islam but I managed successfully in the USA finally cleansing my mind of this sh1t for the rest of my life. I still believe that Islam is the fifth best religion out of the five I know little bit about, Buddhism being the best!

And then one day another person at chowk came up with another Islamic philosopher named Sorush. Heck no! I do not want to waste another twenty years trying to figure out what really Islam is. Loaded with ``de-revelatant and de-cognitant``, I will not dare to go even near these allerganes; the revelations and congnition. I know it inside out and have lived with it.

While in Pakistan, they are still advertizing: ``We need few good men, ready to take a bite of the rotten fish and destined to be called Islamists``.

YleH

``Well the day we the Pakistani Nationalists...``

Man, you must save a lot on bus fare, you are so full of hot air that you can commute by just floating about :-)

YLH

What the hell are you talking about?? You only want Pakistani articles on Chowk?

I had a friend who went to St Stephen`s around this time frame but now I that I think about it , I dont recall hearing any Mandal stories from her. So what`s the deal the Stephanians stay aloof from the riff-raff :-)

``Arrey, Kirodi Mall had become respectable by the late 80s with cutoffs rivalling Hansraj, and a shade below Hindu.``

Really ? I graduated DU in `89 and don`t remember that ! Don`t blush, I was so depressed by my Math classmates that I promtly flunked everything in 1st year and ended up in ``BA Pass Course`` DUs version of Liberal Arts - where at least the crowd was not as bad :-)

Stuka:

Good article. Student politics in India seems to have the same mindlessness to it as Pakistan. Maybe a lack of more interesting available activities makes otherwise intelligent young men go nuts.

And contrary to popular belief(Sameer Sahib can attest to the fact), Jamaatis in Pakistan are well organized to the tee in student politics. Islamic fundamentalism has no correlation with ones academic exploits. The incredible number of Ivy-educated Richard Reid wannabees running around justifying acts of pure evil attests to the fact. The genius of obfuscation in residence hobbyty(who takes over the honour from Field Marshal(Hon) ROmair) is more than welcome to write a 6000 word treatise to prove otherwise.

later

-sac

Veeresh,

Well the day we the Pakistani Nationalists are convinced that Chowk`s Pakistani character has been completely submerged, we shall leave this site. Then all you Indians, and South Asianists from our side can indulge in as many dialogues as possible. Ofcourse without us, none of those efforts can be fruitful.

Thankyou

Sincerely

Yasser Latif Hamdani

RSaxena:

``no, some nerdy girls study liberal arts to become social rebels...and they are def not hotties...``

They don`t go to Delhi University though. Those girls go to Leftist Bastions such as Jawaharlal Nehru Univ, where elections issues are as vague as Support for Sandinistas in Nicaragua etc etc.

Semipreciousme:

Why would you not find it surprising that Sameer was a Jamaati?

BTW, the fruit (bananas) were for us. They are the cheapest fruit, and the guys collecting money for us wanted to save as much as possible for their own Chinese food and Kingfisher Beer.

Dost Mittar: You were at DSE? Man, way too highbrow. Did you also attend lectures at the India International Centre?? :)

AnNy:

Yes, student politics are bad, no doubt about it. The worst are UP student politics. Babloo Srivastava, an international criminal with links in drugs, extortion, murder, got his start I believe as president of Allahabad Univ.

Somehow, I suspect Prem might know a lot about Student Politics...Kyon Prem, kabhi Lexington, Mass ka chakkar phir nahi laga kya?

Roohi:

``Even Khalsa (that sunk our college festival The Tempest) or Kirodi Mall College didn`t take you - good god how badly did you do in your 12th exams?!! ``

Arrey, Kirodi Mall had become respectable by the late 80s with cutoffs rivalling Hansraj, and a shade below Hindu. How badly did I do??? Blush!!! :) Not brave enough to reveal that!!

re: harimau

{{You have to ask?

Man, I am losing my faith in you.

Definitely not nerdy. Nerdy girls study engineering.}}

no, some nerdy girls study liberal arts to become social rebels...and they are def not hotties...some are mean as hell, and they look it...there were even a few desi ones in my college...

{{ That is why most all the hotties on Chowk are Pakistanis. }}

..how do you know?...for all we know they have hairy moles and missing teeth...

anNy:

``sameersaab:

you were a JAMAATI? *faints *``

...actually, it`s not that surprising....

Ah yes the good old Mandal days, remember coming home from work on my bike being stopped by by a couple of goons who asked me not to take a particular route. The alternative as he very politely said ``nahi to aapki bike jala denge`` but fortunately I was able to reach home safely. As DostMitter points out it was rather sad that ``Weepy`` Singh had to resort to the mandalisation of politics in order to keep his seat intact. In fact ``Weepy`` Singh was a frequent visitor to our colony, so some of my friends made an anti VP Singh poster and put it up on the wall but it got removed before he could see it.

-Subroto

sameerjb, stuka,

Whatever be your past, I am glad both of you have been ``saved`` from your respective religions.

Hell would have been a terrible place for either of you. I am sure stuka would have bribed his way out, but sameerjb? :)

There is this very very interesting phenomenon of INVERSION. People exposed to a great deal of religious bigotry early in their lives often cross over and turn into human beings. On the other hand, kids with ``liberal`` parents or those ``westernized`` early, often end up as religious killers and mobsters.

Some of that makes logical sense. Still, folks, anybody else noticed, or better, studied this phenomenon?

Religiously unreligious and unreligiously religious, or

a proud non-Hindu Hindu or a proud non-Muslim or proud non-everything.

Prem

SameerJB

`` was a Jamaatia, drinking Murree Brewary`s beer occasionally with other Islamists in Islamabad with never forgetting to say bismillah before taking the first big gulp.``

What a co-incidence. During the Ayodhya agitation we would put up posters of ``Mandir Wahin Banayenge`` and then go to Nizammuddin area for Beef Tikkas. It`s kind of wierd to imagine you as a Jamaatiya though. Maybe as wierd as my own past as a true believer.

Sadna:

Originally, my plan was to follow up with an article on the Rath Yatra. The problem is that my style of writing is lighthearted, and with what is currently happening in India, I don`t think that will be suitable. But I will definitely try.

I have a cousin called Rachna, but no sister called Archana :)

stuka

my first post didnt make it..you write well..what i have seen tells me that student politics is the lowest form of politics..only the losers, ugly, weak and stupid indulge

why not write something about your hotel/restaurant education/ experiences?..it should be fun to read

sameersaab:

you were a JAMAATI? *faints *

Parag,

Great to read about DU - what memories the whole DU admission process brings up ! I ended up doing Math Hons in Miranda after applying far too late to get anything else inspite of my decent board results - all because I was so sure I was getting into NID, Ahemdabad I didn`t even bother to apply anywhere in DU. Everything is politics ... I think now that it was my enthusiatic gushing about Atlas Shrugged to the arty leftest libral teachers in my 3 day interview that sunk my chances for NID - that of some ``pull`` or ``ghoose`` walla bacha got in instead of me.

At Miranda since it is a girls college the girls (even in English Hons !!) did vote and the elections were a zoo ! Are all North Campus colleges considered good ??? Even Khalsa (that sunk our college festival The Tempest) or Kirodi Mall College didn`t take you - good god how badly did you do in your 12th exams?!! I still remember when when SRCC`s college festival was sponsered by Zakki underwear and they had a huge banner of a Brief draped over the back of the stage for the rock concert !!!

Anyway - thanks for a fun read from a fellow boston area DU-ite

Stuka #21
Do write about the Rath Yatra as well. In the South Mandal-like reservations had been in place for decades and mandir was not a major issue for a long time.
btw, do you happen to have a sister named Archana, perhaps?

Ref RSaxena #: 7

[{{Get me admission into the BA (Hons) English program, which is predominantly girl dominated}}

nice..hotties or nerdy girls?]

You have to ask?

Man, I am losing my faith in you.

Definitely not nerdy. Nerdy girls study engineering.

That is why most all the hotties on Chowk are Pakistanis.

Temporal,

re: ``[…Did I write Stuka for Mr. Vohra`s article? Sorry, must be a mistake…]

---wipe that pie off your face;)``

Hey, a woman can only try to save a man`s honor...

and if it must be pie, make it Stewart`s banana or coconut cream from Chicago. The pie was so good there, I haven`t even bothered eating it elsewhere...

my two cents,

though it was a bit hard to read, the article was interesting and dealt with things new to Chowk.

hope you write more.

Stuka sounds better than Parag.