Delhi University Politics
Parag Vohra March 1, 2002
#67 Posted by stuka on March 5, 2002 10:30:10 pm
YLH
``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war. ``
That can`t be true. The CIA did not even exist before WW-2, forget WW1. The predecessor of the CIA was the OSS headed by an Irish American called ``Wild Bull`` Donovan.
``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war. ``
That can`t be true. The CIA did not even exist before WW-2, forget WW1. The predecessor of the CIA was the OSS headed by an Irish American called ``Wild Bull`` Donovan.
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#68 Posted by rsaxena on March 5, 2002 10:30:10 pm
re: ylh
{{You know you are a fundamentalist Hindu Bigot and thats about it.}}
bacchey, itna gussaa kyon? (i`d say it in arabic so you could understand it better, but i know only 3 languages, and arabic isn`t one of them.)
{{You know you are a fundamentalist Hindu Bigot and thats about it.}}
bacchey, itna gussaa kyon? (i`d say it in arabic so you could understand it better, but i know only 3 languages, and arabic isn`t one of them.)
#69 Posted by Molko on March 6, 2002 4:02:40 am
Ah, the battle for anNy`s mind has begun...
For my part, I`ll quote Yogi Berra: ``When you come to the fork in the road, take it.``
For my part, I`ll quote Yogi Berra: ``When you come to the fork in the road, take it.``
#70 Posted by SameerJB on March 6, 2002 4:02:40 am
Dear AnNy: I wish I had the power or formula to protect you from self proclaimed thekedars of Islamic ethics and morality - the Jamaatias. If I had any hope for changing the attitude of Islam and Islamists in Pakistan, I would have certainly remained within the fold and worked from within. It was utter bankrupcy of the Islam inspired machismo male attitude that left me with no choice but kicking it out of my mind, heart and door.
It is much deep rooted in our society than many of us are ready to acknowledge, often using their election performance as a guage of their influence. I laughed when I read posts at chowk blaming ISI for doing this or that and many Pakistanis tending to believe that Musharraf will be able to eradicate Islamists from the society or ISI. It is not ISI alone. Former Jamaatias with college and university education have infiltrated almost every branch of power and influence. They are not ISI or working for any intelligence agencies, they are spies of Allah. All they have to do is look the other way when Jamaatias or other Islamists carry out illegal acts of violence or being disrespectful of the laws of the land. ISI may be very powerful in setting many events in motion but underneath a whole army of Allah is willing partner to Islamists and Fundamentalists activites.
I think I like you a tad more after reading your post #51 because you are at least on the right path. You are questioning in your own mind about the reason, importance, costs and effects of obsession of Jamaatias and Jamaatia-likes with nonsensical and bizarre Islamic moral and ethics codes related to women. Isn`t this what Socrates said 2500 years ago? Think and question. Just thinking and questioning sets you apart from the flock of sheeps of Allah who accept everything in the name of absolute submission.
Few days ago, I suggested to you that the most important thing in your life is yourself. Call it self love or loving the self but it is a nice principle in combination with humanism. If you feel more comfortable without covering elbows, so be it. Why should you be wrapped in a white blanket in the humid, tropical-like weather of Karachi and profusely sweating, literally, in the name of religion.
Myths are powerful ideas. They give a sense of belonging in tribal sense. Many nations and tribes coalesce around native myths. But taking myths of other people and thumbing down the throat is bound to be a constant source of friction and irritation within society with absolutely no rewards. What a pity! Hoping for fruition of Islamic system is better than Islamic system itself (Pakistan better than Taliban) and not hoping for fruition is much better than fruition in this case (secularism better than Islamic system).
dost-mittar and Stuka: Thanks for the complements. Punjabi hoaN da kujh te faida hey. Musalaman hoaN da kee?
It is much deep rooted in our society than many of us are ready to acknowledge, often using their election performance as a guage of their influence. I laughed when I read posts at chowk blaming ISI for doing this or that and many Pakistanis tending to believe that Musharraf will be able to eradicate Islamists from the society or ISI. It is not ISI alone. Former Jamaatias with college and university education have infiltrated almost every branch of power and influence. They are not ISI or working for any intelligence agencies, they are spies of Allah. All they have to do is look the other way when Jamaatias or other Islamists carry out illegal acts of violence or being disrespectful of the laws of the land. ISI may be very powerful in setting many events in motion but underneath a whole army of Allah is willing partner to Islamists and Fundamentalists activites.
I think I like you a tad more after reading your post #51 because you are at least on the right path. You are questioning in your own mind about the reason, importance, costs and effects of obsession of Jamaatias and Jamaatia-likes with nonsensical and bizarre Islamic moral and ethics codes related to women. Isn`t this what Socrates said 2500 years ago? Think and question. Just thinking and questioning sets you apart from the flock of sheeps of Allah who accept everything in the name of absolute submission.
Few days ago, I suggested to you that the most important thing in your life is yourself. Call it self love or loving the self but it is a nice principle in combination with humanism. If you feel more comfortable without covering elbows, so be it. Why should you be wrapped in a white blanket in the humid, tropical-like weather of Karachi and profusely sweating, literally, in the name of religion.
Myths are powerful ideas. They give a sense of belonging in tribal sense. Many nations and tribes coalesce around native myths. But taking myths of other people and thumbing down the throat is bound to be a constant source of friction and irritation within society with absolutely no rewards. What a pity! Hoping for fruition of Islamic system is better than Islamic system itself (Pakistan better than Taliban) and not hoping for fruition is much better than fruition in this case (secularism better than Islamic system).
dost-mittar and Stuka: Thanks for the complements. Punjabi hoaN da kujh te faida hey. Musalaman hoaN da kee?
#71 Posted by Romair on March 6, 2002 4:02:40 am
SameerJB: Your replies are quite interesting. I had always wondered why you held such extremist views about religion. Perhaps now I understand. You were at one extreme at one stage of your life. Now you have gone to the other extreme to make up for your early days. This is like women who hang out with the wrong man/men, and then start hating all men, as a whole. Perhaps a middle of the road balanced approach is the best. Extremism in any direction is dangerous.
On the whole, it is your own business. But you need to stop blaming others and religion for your childhood problems. The actual problem was wrong decision making by you.
One thing I have always argued against is the role of religious fanatics and secular fanatics in our society. Both are extrimists and dangerous. And both try to gain their legitimacy through their addiction to religion. They spend their whole lives concentrating on it, using it furthur their own goal. One group attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``love`` for religion. The other attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``hate`` for religion.
In this hatred for each other, both groups completely lose sight of real concept of goodness and badness. The religionatics are willing to accept a corrupt rapist as thier leader as long as he proposes some sort of a Shariah. While the secularitics will support a corrupt rapist as their leader as long as he is a vocal critic of Shariah and of mullahs. Religion is the only identity of these two groups. Both at the opposite end of the spectrum, however. Both have a small peanut gallery that follows them diligently. I think if both groups stopped discussing religion as their respective solution and problem of mankind, the world would be a much better place. However, if they did that, they would lose their popularity with their small but dedicated audience.
My advice to you (if you want to take it) is to stop your obsession with religion. Don`t look at religion and the religious leaders as the cause of all of Pakistan`s problems. They aren`t. They are a cause of a small percentage. Everyone doesn`t throw intestines out on the street like you did. There are many hygenic Muslims also. Don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just throw your own bathwater out.
Don`t blame Islam and everyone who choses to follow it for the wrong decisions you made early in your life. Some of us were intelligent enough to see Jamaat-i-Islami for what it is, and not join it. If it has espoused such hatred inside you, against anyone (including Mullahs), then I am afraid it has succeeded in controlling your life, even now.
You are quite an intelligent person (you won`t find me saying this about too many people on this site; not even about myself). You are wasting your intelligent mind in your obsession with religion. Use your mind towards other constructive issues like tackling feudalism, social cohesion (figuring out ways for religious and non-religious Pakistanis living together). Any hate-based approach for or against religion is equally bad. Your stance has been that people should stop obsessing with religion. You may find that if you yourself stop mentioning religion in every comment, others will stop discussing it with you, also. However, of all the repliers on this site, your replies probably contain amongst the highest usage of the word, ``Islam.``
Now, if I could only figure out why you hate the military, so much. Were you rejected by any of the military academies as a teenager :-)
On the whole, it is your own business. But you need to stop blaming others and religion for your childhood problems. The actual problem was wrong decision making by you.
One thing I have always argued against is the role of religious fanatics and secular fanatics in our society. Both are extrimists and dangerous. And both try to gain their legitimacy through their addiction to religion. They spend their whole lives concentrating on it, using it furthur their own goal. One group attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``love`` for religion. The other attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``hate`` for religion.
In this hatred for each other, both groups completely lose sight of real concept of goodness and badness. The religionatics are willing to accept a corrupt rapist as thier leader as long as he proposes some sort of a Shariah. While the secularitics will support a corrupt rapist as their leader as long as he is a vocal critic of Shariah and of mullahs. Religion is the only identity of these two groups. Both at the opposite end of the spectrum, however. Both have a small peanut gallery that follows them diligently. I think if both groups stopped discussing religion as their respective solution and problem of mankind, the world would be a much better place. However, if they did that, they would lose their popularity with their small but dedicated audience.
My advice to you (if you want to take it) is to stop your obsession with religion. Don`t look at religion and the religious leaders as the cause of all of Pakistan`s problems. They aren`t. They are a cause of a small percentage. Everyone doesn`t throw intestines out on the street like you did. There are many hygenic Muslims also. Don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just throw your own bathwater out.
Don`t blame Islam and everyone who choses to follow it for the wrong decisions you made early in your life. Some of us were intelligent enough to see Jamaat-i-Islami for what it is, and not join it. If it has espoused such hatred inside you, against anyone (including Mullahs), then I am afraid it has succeeded in controlling your life, even now.
You are quite an intelligent person (you won`t find me saying this about too many people on this site; not even about myself). You are wasting your intelligent mind in your obsession with religion. Use your mind towards other constructive issues like tackling feudalism, social cohesion (figuring out ways for religious and non-religious Pakistanis living together). Any hate-based approach for or against religion is equally bad. Your stance has been that people should stop obsessing with religion. You may find that if you yourself stop mentioning religion in every comment, others will stop discussing it with you, also. However, of all the repliers on this site, your replies probably contain amongst the highest usage of the word, ``Islam.``
Now, if I could only figure out why you hate the military, so much. Were you rejected by any of the military academies as a teenager :-)
#72 Posted by semipreciousme on March 6, 2002 2:09:03 pm
anNy:
“also sameersaab..your brothers in jamamatiness threatened me just today, less than 2 hours back..`khayaal rakhiyae warna phir tayaar rahiyae`..excuse me pls, if i have the sh!t beat out of them”
...have the shi t beaten out of them and fast….DON’T take their bull…(not that you would:))...i don’t know about karachi uni., but in punjab university they’re expelling these damn jihadis left and right…
“also sameersaab..your brothers in jamamatiness threatened me just today, less than 2 hours back..`khayaal rakhiyae warna phir tayaar rahiyae`..excuse me pls, if i have the sh!t beat out of them”
...have the shi t beaten out of them and fast….DON’T take their bull…(not that you would:))...i don’t know about karachi uni., but in punjab university they’re expelling these damn jihadis left and right…
#73 Posted by soysauce on March 6, 2002 2:09:03 pm
#51 anNy
What you`re going thru i believe is universal. When you are completely dependent on your parents and family, there`s a great desire to please them, so you are more christian/hindu/muslim than they are and it gives them the feeling that they are doing a fine job of bringing you up. Where you`re now you`re questioning everything because you are independent (in spirit and emotion) and you want to examine your life. Late teens to early twenties is when rebellion starts and you strike your own way. Some get sucked back into being good c/h/m, etc., and others find their way. They get busy with their career, chasing lovers, trying to fashion a niche for themselves and so on. There`s a chance that you will completely bust out of the early influences in your life. But many folks, in their middle ages, try to strike a balance between their past and their present. Some hark back to their past with a vengence because they don`t believe the presence is not their making. (I`d say the hindutva nuts belong in this category. There may be other religious equivalents to this also.) If you never left your religion, past, chances are that in your late years you will become a more devout c/h/m, etc. I see this happen often enough. As to why religion is so attractive, it comes with a definitiveness, a certainty attached to it. In uncertain times, religion is a very convenient crutch.
(I`m making sure that my daughter is not brainwashed with any ideology. I want her to find her own way, whatever that may be. I just want her to have a strong confidence in herself.)
What you`re going thru i believe is universal. When you are completely dependent on your parents and family, there`s a great desire to please them, so you are more christian/hindu/muslim than they are and it gives them the feeling that they are doing a fine job of bringing you up. Where you`re now you`re questioning everything because you are independent (in spirit and emotion) and you want to examine your life. Late teens to early twenties is when rebellion starts and you strike your own way. Some get sucked back into being good c/h/m, etc., and others find their way. They get busy with their career, chasing lovers, trying to fashion a niche for themselves and so on. There`s a chance that you will completely bust out of the early influences in your life. But many folks, in their middle ages, try to strike a balance between their past and their present. Some hark back to their past with a vengence because they don`t believe the presence is not their making. (I`d say the hindutva nuts belong in this category. There may be other religious equivalents to this also.) If you never left your religion, past, chances are that in your late years you will become a more devout c/h/m, etc. I see this happen often enough. As to why religion is so attractive, it comes with a definitiveness, a certainty attached to it. In uncertain times, religion is a very convenient crutch.
(I`m making sure that my daughter is not brainwashed with any ideology. I want her to find her own way, whatever that may be. I just want her to have a strong confidence in herself.)
#74 Posted by soysauce on March 6, 2002 2:09:03 pm
#65 Stuka
That was a couragious post. I salute you!
In the context of what has happened in Gujarat, some men feed the beast within them by doing nothing.
That was a couragious post. I salute you!
In the context of what has happened in Gujarat, some men feed the beast within them by doing nothing.
#75 Posted by bong_dongs on March 6, 2002 2:09:03 pm
Ylh,
``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war``
What is the quote, Oh enlightened one!
``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war``
What is the quote, Oh enlightened one!
#76 Posted by Chotu on March 6, 2002 4:13:27 pm
AnNy:
Let me add my insight & advice too. Change is inevitable, embrace it. However, implement change gracefully, and in complete control. Do not be swept away by change. Also, try to keep some goal ahead of you nearly all the time, so that you don`t get bored in life or caught up with bullshit (very subjective, I know).
Also an observation: no 2 people, personalities and lives are the same. Although Sameersaab has a very interesting history, I don`t believe it applies to you. Find your own truth, whether in your own interpretation of Islam, a combination of some beliefs of Islam and other beliefs that you have learnt to be true or whatever else that you feel is right. Be open to change and evolution, don`t fear thinking outside the box and make your own decisions.
And one last observation: you don`t really need advice, you seem to be doing just fine... just keep listening, thinking, sharing, and making your own decisions i.e. don`t be swayed by personalities, but by ideas.
Good luck.
Let me add my insight & advice too. Change is inevitable, embrace it. However, implement change gracefully, and in complete control. Do not be swept away by change. Also, try to keep some goal ahead of you nearly all the time, so that you don`t get bored in life or caught up with bullshit (very subjective, I know).
Also an observation: no 2 people, personalities and lives are the same. Although Sameersaab has a very interesting history, I don`t believe it applies to you. Find your own truth, whether in your own interpretation of Islam, a combination of some beliefs of Islam and other beliefs that you have learnt to be true or whatever else that you feel is right. Be open to change and evolution, don`t fear thinking outside the box and make your own decisions.
And one last observation: you don`t really need advice, you seem to be doing just fine... just keep listening, thinking, sharing, and making your own decisions i.e. don`t be swayed by personalities, but by ideas.
Good luck.
#77 Posted by temporal on March 6, 2002 5:12:47 pm
sameer #72:
…here and elsewhere…when you reminisce and introspect about your past…angst seems to lurk just under the surface…i detect a certain bitterness…as if you are not at peace with yourself…i hope i am wrong…
…perhaps it is all too easy to scrutinize, debate and shake off the lingering influences of the inherited religion…in the dogmatic and ritualistic sense…but what is your take on the almost unshakeable ‘cultural imprint’ of the inherited religion stamped on one’s psyche?
Soysauce #74:
…very well expressedJ
AnNy:
…your are getting some very interesting feedback…que sera, sera…enjoy your peregrination…bspnd…
regards,
temporal
…here and elsewhere…when you reminisce and introspect about your past…angst seems to lurk just under the surface…i detect a certain bitterness…as if you are not at peace with yourself…i hope i am wrong…
…perhaps it is all too easy to scrutinize, debate and shake off the lingering influences of the inherited religion…in the dogmatic and ritualistic sense…but what is your take on the almost unshakeable ‘cultural imprint’ of the inherited religion stamped on one’s psyche?
Soysauce #74:
…very well expressedJ
AnNy:
…your are getting some very interesting feedback…que sera, sera…enjoy your peregrination…bspnd…
regards,
temporal
#78 Posted by ylh on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
Stuka,
According to Andrew Mango`s `Ataturk`, Kemal Ataturk secrety arrived in Istanbul meeting with American Intelligence officers... I called them CIA on this board.
You are right however about the OSS.
Sincerely
Yasser Hamdani
#79 Posted by rozaiba on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
SAMEER JB:
Not that I have any deep interest in trying to figure out religion for the next twenty years either, but from you post #48, you spoke of some guy named `sorush`. do you mean Sorush Irfani? The guy teaching at NCA in Lahore?
If so, do let me know as I was planning on meeting him soon. here`s my email contact:
rozaiba@hotmail.com
Not that I have any deep interest in trying to figure out religion for the next twenty years either, but from you post #48, you spoke of some guy named `sorush`. do you mean Sorush Irfani? The guy teaching at NCA in Lahore?
If so, do let me know as I was planning on meeting him soon. here`s my email contact:
rozaiba@hotmail.com
#80 Posted by ylh on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
The Punjabi Nonsense (Especially for Sameer)
When an upper class English Speaking embodiment of class like Rushdie talks of Secular Humanism, atheism and Islam.. it looks good and tasteful.
When a Punjabi jat speaks of it, it sounds comic. The fact Sameerjb is that the Punjabi mentality has always fueled religious fanaticism. Whereas it is true Lahore has a certain character, but it is also true that worst perpetrators of communal holocausts at Partition were Punjabis and to this day they remain the worst.
I am a Lahori and a Punjabi by any definition, but the fact is that the entire Punjabi identity is crap. Only Punjabis think they have honor. Punjabis were always the first one to sell out to any invader... be it Alexandar, Mahmud, Babur or the British...
When a Punjabi Musalman from Pakistan and a Punjabi Sikh from India get together they usually get along the best. They laugh, they sing, they `Laa Ghut` together... but the fact is that they are mocking Humanity. They are as ready to kill each other as to `Laa Ghut` together... Killing for Punjabis is a stupid little game that they love Playing... don`t mock our intelligence.. Punjabis can possibly be secular, but they will never be humanists... to be a humanist you have to understand the worth of Humanity.
Pakistan`s greatest curse have been the Punjabi Musalmans well except Iqbal I would say... the Punjabis had no tangible role in the Pakistan Movement or the Independence movement even. These people only jumped on the bandwagon after Pakistan was a reality. Since PAKISTAN has been formed, these bigots have unleashed a virulent sunni version of Islam which is more tainted with jat value system than the egalitarianism of Islam. The Punjabis have helped alienate the true pioneers of Pakistan... first they alienated and threw out the Bengalis, the founders of Muslim League and the authors of Lahore of Lahore Resolution, ... now they have managed to alienate the Mohajirs and the Sindhis...
The Good Health of Pakistan and the Good Health of Punjabi culture and community are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. I say divide Punjab into 10 different provinces... Play the siraiki against the Punjabi. Change the name ... Do something.... there is no greater menace... no greater threat to Humanity and Pakistan as Punjab and Punjabism.
Remember the Murderers and Kidnappers of Danny Pearl are also Punjabis!
A Punjabi who hates Punjabiism.
Long Live Pakistan.
When an upper class English Speaking embodiment of class like Rushdie talks of Secular Humanism, atheism and Islam.. it looks good and tasteful.
When a Punjabi jat speaks of it, it sounds comic. The fact Sameerjb is that the Punjabi mentality has always fueled religious fanaticism. Whereas it is true Lahore has a certain character, but it is also true that worst perpetrators of communal holocausts at Partition were Punjabis and to this day they remain the worst.
I am a Lahori and a Punjabi by any definition, but the fact is that the entire Punjabi identity is crap. Only Punjabis think they have honor. Punjabis were always the first one to sell out to any invader... be it Alexandar, Mahmud, Babur or the British...
When a Punjabi Musalman from Pakistan and a Punjabi Sikh from India get together they usually get along the best. They laugh, they sing, they `Laa Ghut` together... but the fact is that they are mocking Humanity. They are as ready to kill each other as to `Laa Ghut` together... Killing for Punjabis is a stupid little game that they love Playing... don`t mock our intelligence.. Punjabis can possibly be secular, but they will never be humanists... to be a humanist you have to understand the worth of Humanity.
Pakistan`s greatest curse have been the Punjabi Musalmans well except Iqbal I would say... the Punjabis had no tangible role in the Pakistan Movement or the Independence movement even. These people only jumped on the bandwagon after Pakistan was a reality. Since PAKISTAN has been formed, these bigots have unleashed a virulent sunni version of Islam which is more tainted with jat value system than the egalitarianism of Islam. The Punjabis have helped alienate the true pioneers of Pakistan... first they alienated and threw out the Bengalis, the founders of Muslim League and the authors of Lahore of Lahore Resolution, ... now they have managed to alienate the Mohajirs and the Sindhis...
The Good Health of Pakistan and the Good Health of Punjabi culture and community are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. I say divide Punjab into 10 different provinces... Play the siraiki against the Punjabi. Change the name ... Do something.... there is no greater menace... no greater threat to Humanity and Pakistan as Punjab and Punjabism.
Remember the Murderers and Kidnappers of Danny Pearl are also Punjabis!
A Punjabi who hates Punjabiism.
Long Live Pakistan.
#81 Posted by sac on March 7, 2002 12:37:07 pm
anNy:
There is a movement back in elite women colleges in Lahore that goes by the name of al-Huda. Seems to be catching like wildfire with YPTs draping themselves with rainbow colored chadors from head to toe. I recommend opening up a Karachi chapter under your tutelage. Poor Karachi wallahs for all their outward sophistication are always behind the curve when it comes to their more `rural` brothers and sisters in Lahore :)
Sameer Sahib:
I have the same question as temporal. Do you think in the long run, not keeping up pretenses is worth it? Or is the jury still out in your case?
later
-sac
There is a movement back in elite women colleges in Lahore that goes by the name of al-Huda. Seems to be catching like wildfire with YPTs draping themselves with rainbow colored chadors from head to toe. I recommend opening up a Karachi chapter under your tutelage. Poor Karachi wallahs for all their outward sophistication are always behind the curve when it comes to their more `rural` brothers and sisters in Lahore :)
Sameer Sahib:
I have the same question as temporal. Do you think in the long run, not keeping up pretenses is worth it? Or is the jury still out in your case?
later
-sac
#82 Posted by SameerJB on March 7, 2002 9:24:51 pm
rozaiba: No, the Soroush I was talking about is some Iranian Islamist writer in the line of other philosophers like Iqbal and Ali Shariari. Like all of them, keeping all the options open is not a consideration for him either. He is also trying to create a heavenly palace on the ground whose foundations are metaphysical. Little do they realize that foundations in the sky will build air castles only.
I will respond to others later today.
I will respond to others later today.
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