Delhi University Politics

ylh #81

I totally agree with your assertion about Punjabis selling out to every new invader. In fact I think you are a fine example of it yourself.

Punjabism may not be very close to humanism but so is not Pakistani nationalim, Ataturkism, Mahan Bharatism or any other ism. We all fall short of that ideal. Unfortunately you think that your idealism is some how better and has divine sanction than other peoples`.

The self hatred that some of the Punjabi exhibit and carry with them everywhere sometimes astonishes me.

Rabb ee Rakha

I just read the essay. Nice, cogent writing. It gladdens my heart to know that some cops at least have a sense of responsibility. Or maybe they just like to throw their weight around. Did you see the picture on Yahoo of two bikers being punished by cops in ahmedabad for defying the curfew? They were made to hold each others` ears and go up & down like doing sit-ups.

Is there any board safe from the litterings of the ylh virus? The guy needs to be put in a crib with an endless supply of gripewater or a pacifier laced with epoxy.

later

-sac

YLH:

Let`s spare arguing over history and our perceptions of what Punjabis did and didn`t do.

Yeah, it`ll be a good idea to divide up Punjab say many Punjabis. Not for the reasons you state though. These Punjabis feel that once divided the very people blowing the false trumpets of `anti-punjabism` will have nothing to blow at. THere is no such things as `punjabism`- it`s merely a circumstantial event in which the largest province has been able to manipulate itself to enjoy the most spoils. `punjabism` isn`t about a form of provincial nationalism. It`s an abuse of authority.

To me, the `anti-punjabism` brigade is inherently a farce.

A statement-supposition:

The anti-punjab valas NEED punjabi hegemony for their own survival.

In the newspapers, the only people I hear who are against dividing Pakistan into more provinces (particularly Punjab into smaller ones) are those from the smaller provinces.

Among Punjabis who reject the plan, the only criticism I`ve heard is that there will only be more CM`s with more administrative staff etc. thus more expenses for the incompetent rulers.

Perhaps you can point to a Punjabi politician who would not like to see punjab`s majority divided up, but not a single civilian I`ve spoken who was against dividing Punjab and Pakistan into more provinces gave the reason that Punjab`s majority would be compromised.

Raveena #67, ``.you need religion to tell you not to shoot someone in the head? not to steal? or cause harm to people who have caused you no harm?...isn`t that just common sense?...``

you`re right, but some people benefit from the discipline of religion. it`s not a matter of religion telling a person that murder is a sin.

if a potential criminal or ``lost soul`` finds solace in religion and spirituality and develops a direction in life, what`s the harm in it? some people find peace in meditation, some in praying five times a day, some in going to the local mandir for pooja, some in devouring Godiva chocolates. what makes one different than the other? as long as the religion is kept to oneself and not forced upon others, it can do good.

just like you shouldn`t let religion blind you, you shouldn`t let your anti-religious stand blind you. both extremes are dumb and dangerous.

Stuka - now that you`ve tantalised us with this, when is the Rath Yathra piece going to be presented? And if you experienced it as a light thing, then WRITE it that way - no point re-casting your recollections in a more sombre mood due to hindsight.

anNy - Relax, Madame. Question away, but why get unhappy? Allah Mian ne aap ko aqal diya tho iss hi liye, na?

sac, temporal and Romair: Very much like women’s issues, not many people took interest in discussing politics of hatred at college and universities. It is not their concern if a hefty chunk of the cream of a nation is being turned into mindless flock of sheep. But when I described my personal experience, in line with the topic of this thread, I was asked personal questions that have nothing to do with the topic. Why shouldn’t my angst be lurking in my posts dealing with a very sensitive area close to the root cause of several of our predicaments and problems? I see nobody complaining about lurking angst when more than ten articles, with generating average of 400 responses for each of them and dealing with a heap of rubble in some obscure place called Ayodhya. I see no complaining about lurking angst in never ending Jinnah-Gandhi and Hindu-Muslim comparisons and permanent discussion about Kashmir, Kargill and war details with several resident experts. When I try to hit below the belt at the common denominator in all these troubles, the anguish and anger is displayed independent of the factors and conditions, as if it is a constant. In more polite English it is called taking out of context and then beating the drum with it.

No I never applied to any military school and yes, I will keep focusing on the root causes - the common denominators - with as analytically as my mind is capable of doing it. I can’t wait to read the next barrage of questioning with ylh possibly inquiring about my anatomy.

It is my conviction and not any compulsion that Islam is a problem and not a solution. Too much input is gone into the making of this conviction, mostly science and god, analytical thinking based on social and economic indicators, history, comparison with others under similar conditions, studying other philosophies, current geo-political situation and least of all personal experiences, although personal experiences instigated me to explore and compare with other philosophies with keeping all options open. It is also my conviction that Islam is inferior as a religion on both ritualistic and dogmatic accounts to many other religions.

So where do I stand with cultural part of Islam in my psyche? Or why not pretence due to any of the social reasons? My personal social condition is the most flexible one. I am not constrained by any emotional bond to any Muslim in Diaspora where a compromise or pretence is a better alternative. It is actually quite the opposite.

Anyone still interested in discussing students’ politics?

P.S. Romair, Please compare the diversity of topics of my few articles at chowk with anyother writer at chowk. They range from game theory, to Aryan Migration, to mass rebellions against invaders, to women`s rights and obsession with....... perhaps you see more Islam bashing because you wish to notice it more than other topics and issues.

Sameer,

Forgive my intrusion into this thread, but I was struck by some of the remarks in your last post, and so very little moves me lately...

``It is not their concern if a hefty chunk of the cream of a nation is being turned into mindless flock of sheep.``

Hear hear.

`` Why shouldn’t my angst be lurking in my posts dealing with a very sensitive area close to the root cause of several of our predicaments and problems?``

This is an extremely interesting question, particularly when no-one (on Chowk, anyway, besides a few lone interactors) will deign to acknowledge the very legitimate critiques made of Islamic interpretations. It seems to be much easier to squawk accusations of disloyalty to religion, ethnic identity, and the various and sundry defamations of political and sexual orientations....it reminds me of the Ionesco play-theres a rhino charging through the town, but no-one will acknowledge it...

And I second the anger. I feel as if I have been betrayed, lied to and manipulated by the excuses, myths and justifications for the behavior and values, that pass for religion nowadays. I remember joining my university`s Palestinian org., an intellectual and activist group because my esteemed mother (Ummi Jaan to you, Ali)

raised me to be politically conscious. I had understood it to be a ``Muslim`` dynamic. After two monthes of working in the group and doing a great deal of research, it became clear that the variables were much more complex. At the same time I was reading essays by women Iranian socialist intellectuals analysing the conditions leading up to Khomeini`s takeover. The use of the chador was completely demystified. among other phenomena.

There should be space for people to ask questions and dialogue about this. I appreciated your and anNy`s posts.

``I see nobody complaining about lurking angst when more than ten articles, with generating average of 400 responses for each of them and dealing with a heap of rubble in some obscure place called Ayodhya. I see no complaining about lurking angst in never ending Jinnah-Gandhi and Hindu-Muslim comparisons and permanent discussion about Kashmir, Kargill and war details with several resident experts.``

Goddess have mercy; I have been far too polite to interfere in the boy`s war room. The Jinnah-Gandhi/Muslim-Hindu saga has left many of us going to Sulekha in crazed desperation...toba toba..

The rest of your post was fascinating. Please continue.

best

SameerJB#90:

…oh brother!…(shaking me head)…quite an unexpected reaction from you…first off…I apologise…did not mean to rankle you…

…asked those queries only because I knew you must have pondered the issues in your usual analytical mode and I was interested in your feedback re: the ‘cultural’ baggage we all carry…am afraid was totally misunderstood…khair…

rgds,

t

re: spout

{if a potential criminal or ``lost soul`` finds solace in religion and spirituality and develops a direction in life, what`s the harm in it?}

...what is the harm in it? look around the world with open eyes and count the number of deaths that have resulted from religious violence...that`s the HARM in it...

{some people find peace in meditation, some in praying five times a day, some in going to the local mandir for pooja, some in devouring Godiva chocolates. what makes one different than the other? }

i`ve never heard of a group of Godiva chocolate fanatics go around killing people or becoming a civil nuisance....but i have heard of religious nuts do both....that is the difference...

{as long as the religion is kept to oneself and not forced upon others, it can do good.}

and how often does that happen? hardly ever...even in the US, we have to hear Bush open his trap and declare ``God Bless America`` ... what utter nonsense ... HE was elected to run and bless America ... if a nuclear attack is imminent, i don`t want this moron sitting around with his bible praying for jesus to tell him what to do ... i want him to use his brain to make the decision on how to respond ...

{just like you shouldn`t let religion blind you, you shouldn`t let your anti-religious stand blind you. both extremes are dumb and dangerous. }

my anti-religious stand is dumb only b.c. too many people lack the education and thinking ability to know right from wrong...hence if you take away their religion, they might degenerate into cave-dwelling barbarians...but the solution to that is to educate them, not feed them goo about prophets and fantastic creatures and heaven and hell...

chotu, pankaj, soya..thanks for the responses..i `am` trying to not let my parents or other personalities around influence me and questioning things slowly but i am..am in rush abhi...thanks for your reponses..really..

zafar saab, mae aap ko ignore karee hoon..goodbye

sameersaab, im delighted u like me more! i like u very much myself!!:) i would write a detailed reponse..god knows there is much to say about the subject under scrutiny but im very sick right now..throwing up like a sick turkey..also sorry i didnt respond on the other board where u asked bout the conference..lemme tell quick now..its students from all over thr world getting together to talk about why things are this bad, what can be done and why is there such a gap between the west and the muslim world...we plan to go a little beyond the jewish conspiracies and stupid nonthinking muslim bit i think..it should be fun..ppl (students, theatre ppl, journalists) coming down from gaza, ramallah, nigeria, egypt, iran, baagla, britain etc...75 ppl from 10 countries of the world..myself from karachi, one person each from isloo, lahore and peshawar make up the pakistani troupe..i leave for islamabad in 5 hours (and really should be packing) and england tonight..bbc is covering the event so if u see me waving to u on t.v, wave riiight back:)...pls pray all goes well and i dont die throwing up in the plane

t,

i think some of sameersaabs anger comes from the stance of the other...what do u do when the other chap is just not willing to listen? reasoning tau kya the other view point is not supposed to exist only...and in the case of somebody being stupid enought to do so, khayaal rakhiyae warna tayaar rahiyae :) u remeber those studnets u filmed at the islamic studies centre? how they were just NOT thinking and talking like robots? and how the teacher as we walked out told me in a very snide and somewhat threatening manner that aakhir islaam sab sae behtareen aur mukammal deen hae aur jo iss kae against bolae ga ussae qanoon bhi daikhae ga aur khuda bhi...and i smiled and nodded knowing she was refering to my little speech on the blasphemy law? u remember how upset u also got in the middle of the discussion? those ppl dont think..theyre like sheeps..and to have been one of them and then realizing one fine day must be one sad memory for him..ask me..heck, u KNOW.

semi:

theyve cracked down on mqm at KU, jaamtiislaami is still going very strong

sac:

i wrote u a long post yesterday telling you that farhat hashmi started off from karachi only (ooopsy daisy) and al-huda has the strongest follwing in khi and that saying things like pyt`s will get u in trouble and that i dont wear rainbow colored anythings but cant find the damned post..bottom line was, someone needs to spank u real bad

kisses everyone! pls pray all goes well and miss me lots!

Saminashah

``The Jinnah-Gandhi/Muslim-Hindu saga has left many of us going to Sulekha in crazed desperation...toba toba..``

you cant get away from it on sulekah also. The only safe places nowadays are the food sites. Have been spending time on recipesource.com (well partly due to an idle comment - a home isnt a home till you turn on the oven - but htat is another story). The apples-in-rosepetals sounds great and doable. Indians in my opinion arent risktakers and it shows in their cooking - i mena there is more to it than curry powder - nutmeg, basil leaves, cocoa - possibilities are endless.

The need to be accepted is so great that it clouts the judgement of the seemingly sane individuals.

Sameerjb, I can assure you that you will not be missed. Thankyou very much for leaving Pakistan.

One day we will drive out the remnants of Punjabi bigotry that has caused the dismemberment of Pakistan in the past and threatens its future.

Long Live Pakistan!

I think it should be abundantly clear to everyone now that the problem with East Pakistan going its separate way was NOT Islam or religion but pure and simple Punjabi Ethnic bigotry.

Dulla Bhatti

``Punjabism may not be very close to humanism but so is not Pakistani nationalim, Ataturkism, Mahan Bharatism or any other ism. We all fall short of that ideal. Unfortunately you think that your idealism is some how better and has divine sanction than other peoples`.``

I have not laid any claim to humanism unlike Sameerjb or the Punjabi conference on this board.. I have no time to mince my words and write unfathomable allegories, and I have no respect for flowery language that conceals lack of substance. My words are very clear. Everyone knows where I stand... hence I am not a hypocrite.

I can care less for Humanism, whilst I am laying claim to narrower identities. I care for Pakistani Nationalism, and I do believe the kind of Pakistani nationalism I am advocating can lead to peace in the World eventually, so humanism may just be a useful by product. But I don`t have time for emotional goody goody nonsense. I think one has just about had enough of the humanists... I find the self rightousness of humanists on these boards to be too choking. In essence they too are bigots.

I can care less about Islam, but the fact is that it is the faith of my parents and it is part of my identity whether I like it or not. Sameerjb says spiritually, ritualistically and dogmatically Islam is inferior to other faiths, and I thank God for that fact. Islam in my opinion was a major milestone enroute to rationality which should be the ultimate faith of any society and any culture. Indeed, Islam is the lesser of superstitions... thank God for that. It only means that as Muslims we really are closer to rationalism than other faiths. Let us call spade a spade... I only called Punjabis what they are. I have been more critical of Muslims.

Now coming to this topic of Jinnah/Gandhi debates. I find it rather hypocritical of the self righteous twits like Sameena Shah and Mr.JB not to mention that I never have taken up Gandhi debates, nor have I sought to malign that old`s man`s legacy until I am left with no choice. It is the Indians who make the comparison, Indian who berate the memory of Jinnah and then they expect me to sit around and not show the otherside of the picture. So go to Sulekha.com or whereever... but the fact is no amount of nonsense spouted by you two will stop me from asserting my pride in my nation and its founder both of whom are great and will always be great. Is it a crime to be proud of what you are? So much for the freedom of thought and expression these bigots preach in the first place.



Morality, Humanity, humanism, progress, etc are all undefined abstracts. What is not abstract is the misuse of these words by people like Sameerjb.

Clearly they are using these words to get their `Uloo seedha`. They are selfish people. It is an uphill battle, but somebody has to wage it.. somebody has to defeat the jamaatis creeping up in Pakistan`s society.. someone has to stem the tide of religious bigotry that has masqueraded as Islamic doctrine? But we see these twits running to sanctuary in their new homes in the west. I ask you, are we Pakistanis the step children of God that we should not be saved by our own?

Pakistan was meant to be an egalitarian libertarian progressive state, and it shall be one with or without these twits. Only while they will whine in the west in a failed attempt to sound intellectual, and drink water out of the same mug as the Brahmin, we will unleash great new energies and great new forces... Pakistanis will be able to tell their oppressors to go to hell. While these twits will sip their cofees and point fingers at us from afar and revel in their fake intellectualism, we will build Pakistan as the harbinger of progress and equality for ages.. whilst these twits and cowards will say `Oh jamaatis have taken over Pakistan` ...we will help drive a dagger through the heart of the Jamaati Monster. I shall not be one of the nuts and bolts of the machinery, we shall create new machinery in Pakistan.

So what is Humanity? Humanity is a procession of nations, and the leader in this procession carries the torch of civilization. Humanity can never be one and indivisible. Humanity is not a homogenous collective. To deny our diversity is to crush humanity itself. Undoubtedly humanity will achieve Unity in diversity one day, but we (the Pakistanis) will be the leaders of that diversity.

There are no divine sanctions for this... it is human endeavor, glory and ambition which fuels my belief that my idealism is better than your idealism.

Long Live Pakistan.

PS and while others will try to drink out of the Brahmin`s cup, the Brahmin will never drink out of that cup again.