Why Are We Killing Ourselves?

vereesh #50: ``who is this mysterious force that keeps the Pakistani elements in troublemaker mode, or destructive mode?....It is in the case of India, places like ``Azad Kashmir``, ``Khalistan``, and now ``Gujarat`` . . . who pays whom to meddle?``

From your reply, I almost get the feeling that you feel that India itself is not responsible for anything. In the case of Khalistan, you would have to ask the Sikhs why they were so angry at India. Azad Kashmir is happy and well. However, in case of Indian Kashmir, you would have to ask the Kashmiris. And in case of Gujrat, you would have to ask the people of Gujrat.

But what I am never able to understand is why India never asks the people of these areas what they want. Maybe if you want a clear answer to your question, you would need to ask the locals. If they say, they are up in arms because of the ISI, then by all means blame the ISI. Otherwise, you need to blame India.

But why is India so hesitant to ask the question, to hold the plebescites, and to expose Pakistan? If you don`t want to ask the questions, then let the international organizations ask. But India has started banning international media in Gujrat.

Introspection is a painful process, but in the long run, it is very healthy.......

re: Romair # 35

Romair, nothing can be said with certainity unless ISI settles the debate itself.

I personally do not buy this causal link of ISI involvment in the race riots in India. I think that Stuka`s observations are more closer to the truth and that is, these sad and tragic riots were due to the BJP`s indecision on the Babri mosque/mandir issue. BJP was playing a dangerous game of communal brinkmanship by encouraging the extermists to a certain point and then, reeling them back in. Sooner or later, this policy of playing with fire was bound to burn BJP.

Extermists thrive in an envirnoment of fear and frustration. BJP`s shrill communual rhetoric instilled a sense of fear in the Muslims as it intstilled a sense of extermism in it cadres. Fear leads to resentment and resentment justifies acts of hate, which is what happned in this case. Muslim resentment came from the fact that it was feeling threatened in the sense of being politically alienated from the Indian mainstream politics by the rhetoric of BJP. What happened was not right and can never be condoned, but the problem was an internal Indian issue and its origins are in the policies of the BJP itself and BJP`s inability to control some of its extermist elements.

Ciao

ali1
You again prove yourself to be the only honest Pakistani on chowk. India should hand over the state of Gujarat for Pakis take care of things there, the dependable folks that you are.

romair:

...received the following mail from a lahore friend...

_______________________________________________

SHAHEEN SEHBAI RESIGNS AS EDITOR OF `THE NEWS`

Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:42:48 -0500

Dear Colleagues and Friends:

It is with great sorrow that I have to convey this bad news to you all today. I have resigned today as the Editor.

I am enclosing enclosing the correspondence with MSR which is self explanatory. I wish to thank you all for all the cooperation and respect that you extended to me during these 14 months as Editor. I will be available to each one of you as a friend at all times.

Wishing you the best of luck and a great future.
Shaheen Sehbai

Pl read on:

Memorandum

To: Mir Shakil ur Rehman, Editor-in-Chief, The News
From: Shaheen Sehbai, Editor, The News
Date: March 1, 2002
Subject: Reply to Memo dated Feb 28, 2002

With reference to your Memo dated Feb 28, I have
been accused of policy violations starting from March 2001 until the publication on Feb 17 this year of the Kamran Khan story on Daniel Pearl
case. I can obviously understand that these so-called ìpolicy violations?are nothing but an excuse to comply with the Government demand to sack me, and three other senior journalists, as you told me in our meeting in your office on Feb 22. I feel sorry that you have to make such excuses. You could have given one hint that you wanted me to go and I would have quit immediately.

I understand that you, as owner of the Jang Group of Newspapers have been so intensely pressurized in the last about two weeks that you are no longer ready, or able, to withstand it. All government advertising of the Group has been unjustifiably suspended by the Government starting Monday, February 18, 2002, following the investigative story done in ëThe News?by our reporter, Kamran Khan. This story, as it appears now, was just an excuse to twist the neck of the Group because the same story appeared simultaneously in the ìWashington Post?and the
ìInternational Herald Tribune?and not one point contained in it was denied or clarified by the Government. Instead they tightened the screw on the Jang Group, as it appeared to be the most vulnerable and within their reach. This has a very obvious, and sinister message, for the free Press in Pakistan: ìGet in line, or be ready for the stick.?I feel sorry that you have decided to get in line, but I cannot be a party to this decision.

You had informed me officially at a meeting in your office on Feb 22, 2002, at 10.15 p.m. that you have been given names of four journalists of
ëThe News? myself, Kamran Khan, Amir Mateen and a staffer in our Islamabad Bureau (probably Rauf Klasra as you did not name the 4th person), to be
immediately sacked before the government advertisements could be restored.

You also informed me that officials of the Information Ministry wanted me to improve my ìPR?with them as they had been complaining that I was not available to them, which is basically not true. You told me to directly contact these officials and talk to them about restoring the advertisements of the Group. Mr Mahmud Sham, who later joined our meeting, had informed us that the Secretary Information had clearly stated that matters were beyond his capacity to resolve and that we have now to meet the ISI high ups.

As a matter of principle I refused to call, or meet, any of these government officials in a situation when the entire Group was being held
hostage with a gun pointed at its head. I, however, conveyed to the Government, through Mr Sham, all the evidence that the policy of ëThe
News?was very balanced, in fact tilted, in favour of General Pervez Musharrafís government, not under any government pressure, but because some
of the things he was doing were right and ëThe News?never hesitated to support any right step taken by the Government. At least 50 editorials and over 100 Op-Ed articles published in about 6 weeks were cited to show that ëThe News?had no bias against the government. Proof was also provided of how ëThe News? at times, went out of its way to accommodate government requests.

Apparently these argument have not satisfied the government and the pressure is continuing on you, as your Memo indicates. Whatever other issues you have raised are childish and frivolous and I would not waste my time discussing them. But one message that emerges is very clear --- I ran the newspaper as a very independent Editor, according to whatever I thought was objective, true and professionally sound journalism. I made the best use of the latest available computer technology to create a working environment in which the entire editorial staff was integrated in such a network that almost everyone was available to each other at all times. I interacted with all my staff on a personal, round the clock basis,
no matter where I was located or traveling, even outside Pakistan. So the charge that I was not available to my staff is laughable as it shows how far removed you are from the ground situation.

Your complaint of lack of ìgeneral improvement in The News?is also obviously an excuse to build
some case against me under Government pressure. You never once complained of that before. In fact the ground reality is just the opposite. I
successfully built a great team of reporters, editors and writers during the 14 months I have been the Editor. We achieved a lot in breaking major stories, including assumption of the office of the President by General Musharraf and corruption in various government departments including Social Action Programme (SAP) and Employees Old-age Benefit Institution (EOBI).
The overwhelming impression that any newspaper of the Jang Group could not publish anything against its advertisers and commercial sponsors was
removed by the investigative stories we did on PIA and other corporate organizations. ëThe News?became the most quoted newspaper abroad, not only
for its stories but its editorial comments and opinions. The latest such quote was in the prestigious ìNew York Times?just three days ago. The Washington Post interviewed me last week as Editor of The News.

The real reasons for failure to bring about a real visible change in Karachi are known to you. For over a year now you have been sitting on all the plans, proposals and schemes, including a Vision Document prepared after months of hard work. The scheme to revamp all the magazines has been lying on your table for months. The designs and site plans to renovate the entire newspaper office on 4th and 5th floors has been gaining dust for months and the staff is forced to work with hundreds of cockroaches creeping on papers, computers, inside telephone sets and faxmachines. In fact I have been bogged down in these totally useless exercises for most of my time, hoping that you would find time and money to start implementing any of these detailed proposals for change and improvement. You have always been promising to launch these scheme within weeks, but that time never came. I am appalled at your audacity to accuse me of being responsible for not bringing any change while the fact is that you have always been complaining of ìthe financial crunch?in the newspaper. You have stopped increments of all the staff and played legal jugglery with all the contract employees by
refusing to renew their contracts or giving them salary increases.

Even despite that I continued to work 20 hours a day to improve the editorial content of the newspaper which has been appreciated and recognized by every one, including your senior Directors and Editors of sister publications in letters written to me. The readers, however, are the best judge.

Why you never raised any objection before, and why you are doing it now, is obvious --- the Government pressure is unbearable. This is
not a happy omen.

Therefore, I have to convey this sad message to you, though I feel very content and satisfied that I have taken the right decision on the basis of principles. I have decided to resign from the
Editorship of ìThe News? with immediate effect, rather than to submit to Government pressure and change the policy of the newspaper. Under my
editorship, I will not allow the newspaper to become the voice of any government for monetary considerations. I had given my name, credibility
and reputation to ëThe News?and I prefer to protect these precious assets, rather than my job. But I will earnestly request you not to take any action against the other colleagues you have been asked to sack, as the ultimate responsibility of whatever appeared in the newspaper was mine, as Editor, and not theirs. They should be allowed to continue with their jobs. I wish, you, the newspaper and all of my colleagues a great future.

I hereby, resign from the editorship. Please accept my resignation today and remove
my name from the print line of the newspaper as of tomorrow, Saturday, March 2, 2002. I would not be responsible for the contents of the newspaper
as of tomorrow.

Best Regards

Shaheen Sehbai

Memorandum

To: Shaheen Sehbai, Editor, The News
From: MSR, Editor-in-Chief
Date: 2/28/02
Re: Violation of policy

I am constrained to bring to your notice several, and repeated, violation of editorial policies clearly understood between us. Infact, these policies have also been agreed in writing.

On 26th March, 2001, you had published a one sided, incorrect and libelous article against Mr. Aittiazaz ìBob?Din, a well known businessman residing in the United States. Although Mr. Bob Din had cited person differences between the two of you, dating back to your stay in the United States, as the motive behind the unfounded allegations against him, I had disregarded this suggestion at that time and had judged the matter
purely on merit. As you will recall, you were unable to substantiate the serious charges you had leveled against him. It was only through my
personal apologies and the intervention of mutual acquaintances that we were able to dissuade Mr. Din from suing the News for defamation and libel.

On two different occasions, you published unfavourable articles about PIA, which were of uncertain veracity and did not contain their point of view, as a result of which they denounced these articles in a press conference, threatened to take legal action, suspended our advertisements and also stopped putting our papers on PIA flights. Needless to say, these
measures hurt us financially, damaged our reputation and took a great deal of pacification to undo.

I would also refer to the written terms of
our agreement at the time of your appointment under which you are required to ìdiscuss the top stories of the day and other important editorial
matters?with me and ìseek the Editor-in-chiefís point of view and verdict on contentious issues? To my recollection, you have never deemed it fit to consult me on any matter. In this connection, I would further like to refer to our meeting on the eve of Eid in which group Editor Daily Jang was also present and we discussed the fallout of the story printed a few days earlier in the News ( again without consulting me, I might add ) which was perceived to be damaging to our national interest and elicited severe reaction by the Government. It had been agreed that we would contact relevant Government functionaries and arrange to meet with them to discuss the issue and also convey our point of view. Regrettably, you chose not to go to Islamabad and attend the meeting even though this had been clearly agreed. You even rebuffed senior Government officials who contacted you on the phone by hanging up on them. Sham Sahib and I left several messages with your assistant but again, you chose not to take or return our calls.

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out again, that it is a frequent complaint that you do not interact with people. Not only have senior Government officials protested that you are inaccessible to them, but even your own staff complains that you are hardly available for
meetings, guidance and discussions.

I must convey my disappointment to you at all these issues, as I must convey my disappointment with the lack of general progress in the improvement of the News. The number of mistakes
and blunders being committed, failure to follow agreed journalistic ethics - as pointed out to you from time to time by EMD ?have all resulted in financial set backs as well as loss of credibility for the News. I have only recounted some of the problems besetting the Jang group. It is quite evident that matters are not proceeding as we had agreed. However, before I make up my mind, I would like to hear your point of view.

I look forward to hearing from you about the serious issues that I have raised above and any solutions that you may propose.

Mir Shakil-ur-Rahman

Stuka #42 you write ``Who is to blame? Our government, our country!!`` It is indeed a great tragedy that has happened, with 498 people killed by now, many of them children and women. It is also a time of anguish for all good people of India and of Pakistan too. But let us keep in mind that first and foremost the people who are to blame are the killers themselves. It is becoming increasingly clear that Pakistanis and Indians need to join hands to fight religious fanaticism, and not let them hide under the pretense of being ``fellow muslims`` or ``fellow hindus``. Even if all we can do at this stage is to show the solidarity on chowk of ordinary Pakistanis and Indians against those who seek an excuse to create violence and to murder innocent people.

Dear Romair # 36 . . . whether I vote for BJP or not is not the issue (incidentally, I don`t. I always vote for anybody who has a maritime symbol, like ship or boat, and if there is none, then for somebody with a fruit like the banana . . .this can be so delicious) . . . the question I am raising is also not whether the Pakistani Government is behind some of our woes in India . . . my query is simple:- who is this mysterious force that keeps the Pakistani elements in troublemaker mode, or destructive mode?

In the case of Afhghanistan (and don`t tell me the Taliban was any different or less regressive than the much honoured Saudi Arab regime) we all now know that the Americans pay the bill for the current level of mischief, so endearingly called ``Great Game`` part -29a.

It is in the case of India, places like ``Azad Kashmir``, ``Khalistan``, and now ``Gujarat`` . . . who pays whom to meddle?

The Pope? (Opens another front, and takes yet another bow . . .)

warm regards,

Veeresh

this cup does not runneth over ........

... i know this doesn`t sound right, but i really don`t care why the indians are killing each other .... and it really doesn`t matter if those being killed are hindus or muslims .... as a matter of fact, since they are the enemy, it is difficult not to feel a little perverse satisfaction at their predicament ......so what if a few thousand miserable gujus go up in flames, we have problems of our own ...... the homicidal sunnis and the suicidal shias are killing each other in rawalpindi and multan while we wring our hands over what is happening in some godforsaken place called ahmedabad ....

...... i guess i have run out of compassion for palestinians, kosovars, bosnians, afghans and, now, the miserable indians ......if god wants to save them, he will - my twice a year prayers don`t seem to be working ......and i am getting tired of writing a check to the red cross every time they have a flood in bangladesh or some primitive tribe in africa goes on a rampage ........i am not sending another penny to amnesty international and the kashmiris and hutus can go to .......

........ if it weren`t for the children .....

harimau,

I salute you for speaking the truth. Whats going on in Gujarat is frontier justice pure and simple. The problem with Indian secularists and liberals who are cursing you is that they believe too much in their own rhetoric and lies, which I guess happens to most bleievers of fraudulent ideologies.

The bigger tragedy is that some in Indian minority communities also started believing in Indian democracy, Indian secularism, the tolerant nature of Hindu religion, equal enforcement of law and other such mumbo-jumbo making them more vulnerable at times like these. I suppose those unlucky enough to have lived with 80% burns have a clearer understanding of the Hindu mindset now.

Even more pathetic are Pakistanis like this old Canadian fart who has lectured us ad-infinitum on the superiority of Indian democracy and secularism and now blames ISI since the ugly face of his beloved is exposed.

harimau,

I salute you for speaking the truth. Whats going on in Gujarat is frontier justice pure and simple. The problem with Indian liberals who are cursing you is that they believe too much in their own rhetoric and lies, which I guess happens to most bleievers of fraudulent ideologies.

The bigger tragedy is that some in Indian minority communities also started believing in Indian democracy, Indian secularism, the tolerant nature of Hindu religion, equal enforcement of law and other such mumbo-jumbo making them more vulnerable at times like these. I suppose those unlucky enough to have lived with 80% burns have a clearer understanding of the Hindu mindset now.

Even more pathetic are Pakistanis like this old Canadian fart who has lectured us ad-infinitum on the superiority of Indian democracy and secularism and now blames ISI since the ugly face of his beloved is exposed.

hamidm #33 you write ``...... first it was the whiney indians, then it was my whiney daughter who is convinced the isi is behind homework.....``

ISI made me skip exercise today too! They sent mind control signals from Islamabad that would command the legs to stay put. Tomorrow at work I fully expect ISI to command my hands to start grabbing female persons right and left despite my non-sexist politically correctness...

I was accused God knows why of revelling in India`s miseries... Only God knows why such an accusation was levelled against me... but to tell you the truth the fact is that we Pakistanis never revel in India`s miseries like Indians revel in ours. Any Pakistani can now proudly claim that the recent violence in India proves the raison de ettre of Pakistan beyond a shadow of the doubt. Such a logic can also go a long way in shutting up our own fundoos who despise the concept of a `secular` Pakistan. But we the true Pakistani Patriots are decent people... we will not take advantage of this.

Here is an example of this is from Pakistani paper The News on Sunday:

Culture

The other side of madressahs in Ayodhya

By V B Rawat in Ayodhya

Ayodhya remains a symbol of India`s cultural pluralism despite efforts by outsiders to communalise it As saffron saints make their political attempts to communalise India and indirectly seek to ask the frustrated people of the state of Uttarpradesh, to support a thoroughly discredited government, an unplanned visit to several madressahs proved a signal for those who look down upon Muslims and spread the canard about their possible anti-Indian feeling.

A B W M National School or Madressah Talimo Tarbiat, is in the opposite side of Ramjanambhoomi-Babari Masjid structure. As I was traveling to

Ayodhya, 80 years old Mohammad Hashim, who was the first person to have seen the rowdy elements of the Hindutva brigade putting the idols of `Ram Lalla` in the Babari Masjid, and he had complained to the then district collector. The rest is history now. I go along with him and a local social activist, Abdul Khaliq, to see various monuments of Ayodhya. And suddenly the principle of Madressah Hafiz Mohammad Safi comes in and asks us to join his Madressah`s republic day programme.

Over 200 students predominantly girls have gathered at the small open campus of the madressah where the tricolor is about to be hoisted. In front of the tricolor is written with flowers ``Jai Hind``. Exactly at 10am, Mohammed Hashim, one of the oldest members of Ayodhya, with the help of Hafiz Mohammed Safi, hoists the tricolor and the entire

gathering claps and starts singing ``Jan-gana-Mana``. It was a slap on the face of those who consider Muslims abhor the very concept of a `national song`. But that was not the end. The programme is well prepared by Hafiz with the help of his teaching staff, which consists of five female teachers.

The programme followed by songs, dances and plays by students both boys and girls. Two girls who sing `Ah malik tere bande hum, aishe ho hamare kadam, neki pe chale aur badri se daren take hansate hue nikle dam`. Again all the childern clap. Another girl sang `Chhodo kal kee baten, kal kee baat purani, naye daur main likhenge hum, milkar nayee kahani, hum hindustani`, followed by `Sare jahan se achcha hindustan hamara`. Small children also danced on `Nanha munha rahi hoon, desh kaa sipahi hoon, bolo mere sang, jai Hind`.

It was so heartening to see the children playing `natak`, carrying national flag and saying through their own way to reject smoking and chewing tobacco, which is dangerous for health. The most illustrious part came when a small girl spoke on the issue of `unity in diversity` and said: ``We are the children of this great nation but unfortunately some people talk of hatred and feel proud in breaking the constitution and civilised norms. They talk of war and feel happy about it, but they don`t understand that war is anti-children. These leaders want to deny us our childhood.`` In the end sweets were distributed among the children.

One is surprised how these children, majority of whom are unable to pay their monthly school fee of 15 rupees, have been able to speak in terms of national integration and unity in such a way, when the projected image of a madressah is of orthodoxy and conventionalism where an illiterate mullah teaches students all that is `evil` in India.

This is also a time for retrospection for the `secular` media, which has also fallen to the

continued `cries` of Sangh Parivar, that madressahs are the center of anti-Indian activity.

One does not know what is anti-Indian. Madressahs are helping the poor people and their

children by whatever small means they have with them. The principle reveals that only 100 students are able to pay the monthly fee of Rs 15, which means about 60% students coming in the madressah receive education free of cost. They do want grant as at present they are not getting it from anywhere and if the government is concerned about religious education and every other thing that madressahs do, let it take over all these institutions, provide funds to them and ban all the religious schools of hatred, which are being run by Sangh Parivar.Ayodhya is the symbol of India`scultural pluralism and one hopes that despite efforts by the outsiders to communalise it,

they will fail again as they have in the past.



For the record, I disagree completely with the article, but I wish to show our Indian friends that unlike them, we don`t take advantage of other peoples` miseries like Indians do.

The inevitable has been proved true by the course of events. The best we Pakistanis can do is protect our Hindu brothers inside PAkistan. Just because some savage brutes decided to kill each other somewhere is no excuse for retribution against our Hindu brethren. We should rise above these petty religious disputes.

I would not dismiss the ISI`s role in instigating the massacre of Hindus in the train. But I highly doubt that the all powerful ISI has tens of thousands of agents in Gujarat all pretending to be Hindus, going up and down massacring Muslims just to give poor secular India a bad name.

The train incident was a provocation. No doubt. The result...kill hundreds of Muslims across the state.... Who is to blame? Our government, our country!!

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hamidm #33: logic from the bard.....i though i would never see the day....you are losing your touch with lack of logic, and becoming too logical for your own good..... :-)

``and, for once, romair is right``

are you suggesting i have never been right before.....not once.....you can at least admit to one tiny little point i may have made which was correct.....or will you turn green and explode, if you do that......

re: Romair # 36

Romair, I am not sure one would buy that logic. One can not accept the argument that somehow the murder of theose women and children in that train was ``waiting to happen.`` The same logic would then shift the blame for the inhuman riots that followed onto the the innocent victims of those riots.

Violence like this is NEVER justified. The trouble with all justification is that one can keep going back in history until cows (or goats) come home and die of old age. Only dead-end lies that way.

Advani`s behavior has nothing to do with the attacks on those train. Guilty must be caught and punished severely. Just as must be those animals who killed hundreds of innocent muslim men, women, and children. This is India`s great nightmare, and must be faced forcefully.