Why Are We Killing Ourselves?

Indians, read this article and weep....How fukced up we have become.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29774-2002Mar2.html

ISI directorate has been undergoing restructuring and reorganization since late 2000 - that is is to say those lements that ran the Kashmir and Afghan Bureaus can look forward to transfer - and therefore they created problems in, wait for it: Gujrat???

It`s more plausible that they would create problems in Pakistan, isn`t it?

All problems in India are the result of ISI and ``Islamic fundamentalist`` - Local Muslims in Gujrat were cool until some ``puritanical`` types just happened to come along - now keep an open mind (yes that`s the same as being like minded) - now who would you think would cause trouble the ``docile`` Gujju Muslims? or the ``puritanical`` types - No VHP, BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena - these are proud muscular Hindus - they don`t create trouble - but these Muslims - look at 9/11, don`t tell me it VHP flying those airplanes into the twin towers - like I said, keep an open mind.

temporal #1: I would be interested in finding out what you know about the ISI? Do you know anything besides the general conspiracy theories that get the airtime? If you do, then your analysis is worth a debate. If you don`t, then are just adding more fire to the conspiracy theories.

Could you explain how the ISI can be more powerful than the Army, when the ISI head and all the members of the ISI are appointed by the Army (and air force and navy), and from the Army. Very few, if any, of these guys make a career in the ISI. They go there for a few years and then return to their normal units. There have been many heads of ISI who had never spent a single day in the ISI before being appointed its head. After spending a few years in the ISI or MI, they are assigned as Corps Commanders, etc. I don`t know anyone who spent more than one tour in the ISI. Usually, that is the norm.

Normally, the head of the ISI is the only Lt. Gen. that reports directly to the Prime Minister. Civilian prime ministers have specially made this rule so they can use the ISI against their political opponents. For example, when Najam Sethi was kidnapped, he was handed over to the ISI, by NS and Mushahid Hussain. According to Sethi himself, the ISI refused to entertain NS`s wishes and let him go.

How can an organization whose members report to another organization, be more powerful than the later organization? If Musharraf doesn`t like what the ISI head is doing, it would take him one phone call to fire him, or reassign him to another post.

Malik Sahib,

The blame for this latest bout of communal madness in India lies with the BJP. Yes, it is the BJP party and the BJP government that is responsible for this inhuman carnage. The BJP deliberately encouraged the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) to rake up the temple issue in order to get an advantage in the recent assembly elections. On the surface, Vajpayee and Advani, called out for restraint. But actually, the rank and file BJP guys were encouraging the VHP to ignore legal proceedings and bring up the temple issue to the front burner. They wanted a repeat of 1992, when they had brought up the temple issue to gain ground in North India.

The BJP has acted in the most irresponsible and malicious manner. They knew very well that tensions were high after the Dec 13th attack on Parliament and the near war situation with Pakistan. They also knew that the Ram temple issue is a sensitive one. Still they went ahead with the VHP, which goes to show that they will do anything to grab on to power, even if it means destroying the fabric of Indian society. Most of us had started believing that the BJP had changed and was now a responsible party. We argued with Pakistanis such as Romair on this subject. I have to admit that we were wrong. The BJP was always a communal entity and it continues to remain a communal entity that is hell bent on fragmenting Indian society. It is nothing more than the Jamaat-e-Islami equivalent among hindus.

We have often seen Indians coming on this forum and elsewhere talking against the two nation theory and partition. Heck, we cannot even control communal passions in present day India, where people are burning other human beings in the twentyfirst century. What did we hope to do in an Akhand Bharat ? It would have been exponentially worse.

What is really distressing is that things were going well in India. The economy was humming along, internationally we were looked at with respect and there was a gradual reconciliation developing between hindus and muslims. The BJP has managed to mess up everything in a matter of days. Maybe it is time we Indians adopt the Turkish model of secularism and completely ban every political entity that even utters a religious word of any kind. Any mention of karsevaks or Ram or Allah, and you are forever banned from politics. That will teach a lesson to Advani and his saffron brigade. Better still, we could extradite Advani to Pakistan, where they could give him a warm homecoming.

temporal #1:

The ISI theory that your propound for the Godhra massacre among other things is quite possible.

It makes sense for the ISI to instigate the burning train of Godhra which was sure to incite revenge killings of Muslims, like we are seeing.

I think the ISI angle should be further examined.

Indians on this board:

I know all of us are deeply shocked by the senseless gruesome murders in Gujarat and are not in the mood for the blame game, but isnt the involvement of the ISI is a distinct possibilty?

1. ISI has been know to finance and encourage unrest in India

2. To give one example the 93 bombblasts in Bombay, about which Khaled Ahmed of the Friday Times talked about in one of his articles which included the name of the Pakistani General involved in planning them

3. Burning of VHP workers, that too 55 of them, and mostly women and children was something that was definitely going to incite revenge killings. Why would a fundamentalist Muslim group do anything like that, unless the purpose was to actually cause whats happening now?

4. Pakistan does stand to gain from internal strife in India, deflecting world attention away from it specially after the Pearl murder, distracting the Indian govt, and causing withdrawl of atleast some Indian troops from the border.

5. No Muslim groups gain anything: No leverage on Babri Masjid, and for the more fanatically inclined ones, no net Hindu fatalties (60-80 Hindus versus, 400 Muslims). So why would anyone want to do that?

6. The Godhra attact was totally preplanned to attract exactly the reprisals that are coming now.

7. Who stands to gain from all this?

Prem # 15

I live in USA where I am judged predominantly by my own actions. There is some racism as evident by actions against Arab/Muslim-Americans after Sept 11. I am fortunate to live in such a society.

In India the actions of an individual have consequences for the individual. In addition the family members, members of caste/religious group may suffer consequences. Most of bleeding heart liberals would not marry the daughter of a prostitute even if the daughter was a chaste woman. (Don`t mean to be sexist with my example)

It is guilt by association.

The real divisions in India are not Hindu-Muslim. First it is really Tamil, Hindi, Bengali, Sindhi, Punjabi, Gujrati etc. Second it is upper classs and lower class. I think BJP types, orthodox Muslims and Pakistani Punjabi elite just don`t seem to get it.

The response by VHP types is disproportionate to the original attack. It is counter productive in the long run. They have lost the moral high ground.

The only disagreement I have with you is that there are different norms of conduct for Hindus and Muslims in India. Hindus have advantages in numbers and control of power. Muslims can be more cohesive and have less differences. The progressive elements in Muslim community need to show some real backbone. At the minimum they have the clout to impose their code on conservatives in the community. It is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of survival.

Horrifying and deplorable as the incidents may be, the advent of live TV coverage does help in bringing people to their senses. At least the worst of the violence and lynch mob has been limited to Gujarat. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this (i.e. how the initial bogie fire was incited) and the concerned individuals face trial. The (non) role of the RPF and other forces also need to be examined (apparently they got scared and didnt do much to prevent or minimize the initial incident).

Next time such a thing happens, one should resist the tendency to associate an ethnic or religious minority and focus on the specifics of the situation.

I think we have come a long way from the days of partition in terms of random killings; at least in terms of damage control

re: babu # 9

Re. that ``think twice`` argument, I could just tell you how disgusting, nauseating, and immoral such logic is. But since you are not the only person from either community, who may reason that way, let see if I can also make rational, not just moral, arguments.

There have been reports that in Godhra area, the Muslim community had recently experienced some internal conflict (article in HT or TOI, I am not sure). There was this traditional local community that had been quite moderate, living more or less peacefully with Hindus, sharing a great deal of social life. This life had been disturbed, it appears, by a recent influx of more hardline ``puritanical`` elements who had sought to separate Muslims from Hindus.

Now, which of these two groups do you think was more likely to be behind the original attack on the train? And, which of the two groups do you think was more likely to have been victimized by the so-called ``revenge`` attacks? Most importantly, do these ``revenge`` attacks deter or strengthen the original attackers?

Babu, keeping a multi-religious, multi-ethnic multi-everything society like India rolling along peacefully is very hard work. It also requires enormous patience and enormous understanding of human nature. The doctrine of ``revenge`` must be killed and buried for good, if any of us - belonging to any group or any nationality - is to live like a human being.

Anas: I fully agree with you. As I have said before on chowk, religion has become a curse for South Asia, a convenient means for evil men to gain power in society and to kill innocent people. It is time for ordinary Pakistanis and Indians to unite as one against this common enemy of religious fanatics. Let us speak out when we can and where we can for respect for human life and property and for all faiths!!

I think a particular obligation to work for peace for our less fortunate people lies with Indians and Pakistanis, muslims and hindus, who live in the west. We live our everyday lives in the west as friends and sharing much in common - let us not forget the curse of religious hatreds and nationalistic politics that divide our brothers and sisters on the other side of the globe.

hariharan,

I would prefer you clean your own mess but count me in.

Aisha

Temporal.

Hi, Hope you are well, may I ask what was the point of the post and why you want shaheen sehbai fired?

Aisha F Sarwari

temporal #1:

I don`t agree with all this hoopla about ISI. ISI is partially staffed and fully commanded by Pakistani military officers. All these attacks on ISI are an indirect way of attacking the Pakistani military. If you want to clip the wings of the ISI get the Pakistani military under civillian control. At least limit their meddling in internal politics of Pakistan.

This is for Pakistani readers who think politican parties can be pushed around in India like those in Pakistan. It is important to understand that you don`t mount attacks on followers of big political parties. BJP has been number 1 or 2 political party in Gujarat and for that matter in India for a decade. It would be foolish to attack supporters of BJP like the train attack at Godhra. As much as I am disgusted at the revenge killings I will say this. Muslims in Gujarat will think twice before making another attack like the one at Godhra. It is not my way of changing an entire community`s behavior. Democracy without checks and balances is a lynch mob.

Ras, you have been too harsh..but then again you are entitled to your opinion. :)

I`d respond even more, but at this point I can barely keep my eyes open, so she who writes and runs away will live to write another day!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Mr. Malik,

It would have been helpful if you had developed the theme of antagonistic religious categorization a bit further.

Unless we take the bull by the horns, all talk of inter-religious / inter-sectarian / inter - anything violence is little more than whining. We will merrily keep killing one another and keep wondering why.