The Panel of Vendettas at UC Berkley

Rsaxena`s answer machine just picked up when I called his home phone a few minutes ago. I have to say I have heard some chutya accents, but this one takes the cake!

I request all interactors to kindly not use this board for their own agendas.

Rsaxena to ylh,

`I DID NOT WRITE THOSE WORDS, YOU DID`

So what prompted you to quote them on this board? From what I gather ylh wrote those words in response to one of your attacks under a separate alias on ANOTHER BOARD, not on THIS BOARD!

Please don`t pollute this board with your heeng smell any further ok? Thankyou.

Aisha

Rsaxena: True to His creed once more!

``dude, you brought it up, not me. ``

1) Show me where on this board have I brought that topic. The reason you brought it up was because you are a stupid idiot trying to detrack the discussion here.

2) I didn`t bring it up on the other board either. You asked me a question through your alias `Ali2`. I simply answered the Question. I have given a link to my post. It was for everyone to see. You have misquoted it by picking and choosing words out of a sentence. Typical Indian Behavior. Once a chut always a chut. Once an Indian always an Indian.

On the other board, Mr. Tahmed is taking the same 1 sentence out of context and ignoring the rest of the Post ... which is a complete denunciation of caste based lineages.

I ask you Rsaxena and the Great Tahmed ... which part of following did either of you NOT understand:

``Ofcourse, I still don`t understand the relevance, especially since I had mentioned this little fact in relation to the debate on heritages, and how evil we Pakistanis are for claiming to be of foreign descent, especially since mostPakistanis have domestic Rajput and Jat surnames.`` My post 289 on Ras Siddiqui`s Board

and

``The debate on lineages is stupid ... but by the same token it is a fact that Middle Eastern especially classical Islamic scholarship was obsessed family Lineages to trace the accuracy of the transmission of Islamic Law. So if I have saidsomething like that, it is because its a fact and not because I am unnecessarily proud of my relation to a man who claimed to receive divine revelation rightly or wrongly.`` My Post 68 on this Board.``

And the same post:

``Like I said, I could care less if I was the descendant of Muhammad, or the descendant of an untouchable Hindu. My education, my training, my faith and my family have taught me to respect humanity regardless of lineages..``

Yet all these Lines of my posts Have been completely ignored and One line of out of my post has been repeatedly quoted... People like Tahmed seem to have a personal vandetta against me. He penned his Post 293 on Ras Siddiqui quoting directly out of my post 68 on this board... and yet continues to condemn me for sacrificing the spirit of Islam and calling me ignorant. For God`s sakes Man... Not everyone needs your self righteous Babble. First find it in your heart to read the Whole fing thing... instead of condemning something for two lines out of an entire paragraph.

Shame on YOU!

tantralogician,

Grow up. Stop the inhuman carnage in your own country before talking about us. I have already given the facts and figures and sources about your government`s complicity in the massacres at partition... dig a little deeper and we will see that your Government was guilty in these massacres too.

All in all more minorities were killed in India than Pakistan ... to hide behind the stupid argument of minorities being extinct from Pakistan ... I challenge any Indian to fight on facts right here right now. The fact is that people that moved from Pakistan to India were close to 3.5 Million.. and those who moved to Pakistan from India was 5.5 Million (The times London statistics have been quoted in detail). The only reason that India still has minorities is because it had too many of them, and Pakistan had too little of them.

Twisting of arguments won`t help your case. Shame on you Indians!

Bhutto Model Improved? Omar Asghar Khan ! I think I might just vote for him.



http://www.dawn.com/2002/01/24/nat5.htm

QJP to be a modern political party: Omar

By Mahmood Zaman

LAHORE, Jan 23: The Qaumi Jamhoori Party has emerged at a time when the national scene lacks political stability and most political organizations do not recognize their role in meeting the modern day social and economicdemands of the people.

A vacuum exists since the exit of major political parties from the corridors of power. The parties are also riven by internal conflicts on the ideological or organizational fronts.

The weak political structure may not fully comprehend the new electoral system which encompasses conventional and new methods of representation and provides for a wide scope for manoeuvring particularly for special seats.

The new party, having been formed in Lahore in the third week of December last, is believed to be eying these seats in particular. The QJP is essentially a coalition of a host of non-government organizations which have been working in a number of socio-economic fields for years and now want to reap political benefit from their work.

The political experience of the party comes from the six- party Pakistan National Conference which thought of merging into a single political organization years ago. But when the actual stage came, only the Tehrik-i-Istiqlal and the Islamabad-based Social Democratic Group remained committed to the idea and the other parties, including Ajmal Khatak`s National Awami Party of Pakistan and Abid Hasan Minto`s National Workers` Party, refused the merger at the eleventh hour.

The new party has nominated Omar Asghar Khan as its national organizer and deferred all other organizationl and policy matters to a later stage. Some months are required for a proper launch and in the meantime, a number of committees have been set up to work out a manifesto and a constitution and to meet other organizational requirements.

But certainly before that the Qaumi Jamhoori Party will be in a state of preparedness for the general elections scheduled for October. It is rather for this electoral contest that the QJP has been formed. More pertinent is the matter of seats to be filled under the proportional representation system and many believe that the new party may fancy its chances on these seats.

The QJP claims sympathisers in several classes of people, particularly the middle class and the ``silent majority.`` In an informal interview with Dawn in Lahore the other day, Omar Asghar Khan said the QJP was a people-oriented, forward-looking political party, essentially of the middle classes, and a coalition of other economic and social forces committed to safeguarding the rights of the people in all walks of life.

The QJP national organizer gave a detailed explanation to a question raised by some quarters whether the new party was the creation of the Establishment. ``Absolutely not; it is a totally false conception,`` Mr Khan said and added that the idea of forming a new party had started years ago and it was a mere coincident that it had materialized only recently.

In an obvious reference to the NGOs, the QJP leader said he had always been working in concert with the forces in the field for the welfare of the people. Besides, the local government elections had seen the emergence of new forces on the political scene and some of them really wanted to work from a single political platform. ``You also develop a constituency while in government.``

The reason, he said, he was facing the wrath of religious extremists was the move for restoration of joint electorate and other reforms. ``The immediate cause was the September 11 terrorist attack on the United States and the subsequent government policy which resulted in tremendous pressure on us and it was becoming increasingly

difficult for us to continue in office``, the QJP leader said.

All these factors added to the forming of a new political party and the experience of working together in the PNC and a strong desire of some important non-government organizations played a major role in expediting the matters, Mr Khan added.

The QJP is still a constituent of the PNC but will give a second thought to its relationship with the conference when its national executive council meets by mid-February. The party has written a letter to the present PNC chairperson,

Ghinwa Bhutto, informing her of the decision that the QJP might reconsider its membership of the alliance.

As for forming an electoral alliance, Mr Khan had strong reservations. ``I can`t say what decision the party will take, but I am personally opposed to alliances which affect political policy and party manifesto,`` Mr Khan said. He also did not think that there were some like-minded parties in the arena. ``It always leads to compromises and give-and-take.``

He thought that the proportional representation system required a sustainable post-election political arrangement which needed to be strengthened. ``We have a perfect blueprint (for these arrangements) and want others to join us,`` Mr Khan added.

When asked how would the QJP be able to prepare for general elections exercise in so short a time, the QJP national organizer hoped that the party could take up the challenge. ``We are thinking of a strategy to focus particular classes and geographical areas.`` Besides, he said, the QJP would develop into a political organization with intra-party democracy, collective leadership and a modern fund-raising methodology.

Bringing together the `stans`

By Shahid Javed Burki

In last week`s article I proposed that General Pervez Musharraf and his administration should work diligently

towards creating a large regional association of Muslim states in West Asia. The first step towards the

achievement of this objective could be the formation of a regional economic and trading bloc involving the seven

``stans`` - Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan.

Together these seven states have a population of 223 million, a gross domestic product of $114 billion, and per

capita income of $ 512. There are large deposits of oil and gas in Central Asia waiting to be tapped. Since the

countries are small their domestic demand for energy is insignificant compared to what they could produce. They,

therefore, must look for export markets and these exist in Europe, China, Japan, and India. But for the

transportation of oil and gas building an extensive network of pipelines is needed that has access to the sea. This

is where Pakistan enters the picture. Pipelines connecting India and the Arabian Sea with the enormous gas and oil

deposits in Central Asia will have to pass through Pakistan. For that to happen a regional trading arrangement that

involves both Afghanistan and Pakistan with Central Asia is the most logical way to proceed.

But hydrocarbons are not the only resource that provides economic salience to the seven ``stans.`` The region has

an enormous - and yet to be fully appreciated - agricultural potential. As China and India become the world`s

``elephant economies`` their demand for agricultural products will increase to the point where it would exceed by a

wide margin the ability of domestic agriculture to meet it. The seven ``stans`` - in particular Pakistan but also parts of

Central Asia - could become important suppliers of food and agricultural inputs into industry. Cotton is the most

obvious example of a commodity the ``stans`` can supply to the world`s large economies.

And then there is human resource in which the industrial countries are already experiencing a growing deficit. Not

only that, the Central Asian countries with rapid fertility declines of recent years will also need to import workers with

appropriate skills in order to modernize. Pakistan, by far the largest country in the region in terms of the size of its

population, could become an important source for trained people who will be needed once the area begins to

develop rapidly. But before this region made up of the seven ``stans`` begins to move economically, it must cross

some hurdles. There are at least four that must be tackled and Pakistan may be in a position to help the area to

surmount at least three of them.

Let me first deal with the hurdle in which Pakistan for obvious reasons cannot be of much help. A number of Central

Asian countries are weighed under a great deal of external debt which they have been unable to service from their

limited export earnings. Their problem is even more severe than that of Pakistan. For some of them, the

outstanding debt is equivalent to four-fifths of the gross domestic product. The ratio for Pakistan is about 55 per

cent. The severity of the problem has been recognized by the creditor countries and Britain has announced a

special initiative to deal with it.

There are other hurdles the Central Asian countries face in which Pakistan could provide help by setting an

example. In the article today I will deal with two issues - the importance of getting the world to develop the right

appreciation and knowledge of the area and the role of Islam in governance. Next week I will take up the question of

political development.

The world must get to know this area. As Ahmed Rashid points out in his new book, Jihad: the Rise of Militant Islam

in Central Asia, the countries in question are beautiful, unsettled and - with the exception of Pakistan - scarred by

their Soviet heritage. ``...the vast, empty landscape [of Central Asia] dotted with Oases of vibrant populations and

political ferment, sitting on the world`s last great untapped natural energy resources, is still almost unknown to

westerners, as it was to Europeans in the Middle Ages.``

The industrial West will want to know this region better before it is prepared to pour resources into its development.

The region will be able to develop only after the Western corporations feel comfortable in their knowledge of the

area and are prepared to bring in the billions of dollars of investment needed to exploit the enormous riches of this

place.

In projecting a new image to the world, the ``stans`` could learn a lesson from Turkey`s experience. In spite of the

efforts launched by Kemal Ataturk several decades ago to modernize - if not Europeanize - Turkey, the country`s

reputation remains poor. A recent book on the country by Stephen Kizner (Crescent and Star: Turkey between two

world wars) puts the problem as follows: ``Many people view modern Turkey as a backward land plagued by vast

social inequalities, grotesque human rights violations and a callous, corrupt and militaristic regime.`` Kizner, a

sympathetic observer of Turkey, is frustrated that that unfortunate image continues to persist in the western mind.

There are three things that have given Turkey its bad reputation. The first is its Muslim identity which, in spite of

protestations to the contrary, remains a liability in the west. Unfortunately, Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda

network have not helped to overcome the prejudice against Islam and its followers the West has harboured for

centuries. That is why it is so important to project diligently and constantly a different image of Islam - a project that

General Musharraf seems to have assumed for himself. I will pick up this subject in a moment.

The second reason for Turkey`s inability to gain a better reputation for itself is its uneven democratic record. Like

Pakistan, it has found it difficult to develop a political system that can develop on its own without being prodded by

the military. This is a subject to which I will return in the third article of this series to be published next week.

Let me now address the issue of religion and the Muslim state. The seven ``stans` will need to define the role of

religion in the way they govern themselves. This is one place where Pakistan, under the leadership of General

Pervez Musharraf, seems ready to lead. Peter Bergen, reviewing Ahmed Rashid`s recent book for The Washington

Post, paints an interesting picture of what he saw of Pakistan`s emerging role in Central Asia.

``Visiting Kabul in 1993, I struck up a conversation with a group of soldiers outside the bombed shell of a stately old

palace,`` he writes. ``They were under the command of the Afghan Islamist militant leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and

confidently assured me they would soon export the Islamic revolution northwest deep into Central Asia, to the

storied formerly Muslim lands of Samarkand and Bukhara. At the time, I took these bold declarations to be simple

bravado... I was wrong.``

That Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was a creation of Pakistan - in particular the Inter-Services Intelligence - is now well

known. There is a strongly held belief in several western quarters that the ISI at some stage was following the dream

of bringing all the seven ``stans`` under the yoke of radical Islam. This approach led to the advance of the Taliban into

Afghanistan, to the sponsorship of the Taliban who, in turn, came under the influence of Osama bin Laden and his al

Qaeda terrorist network.

It took the terrorist attacks of September 11 on America for Pakistan to recognize that it was pursuing the wrong

course. It was wrong not only because all that Osama bin Laden had done and was threatening to do was against the norms of civilized behaviour. It was also not in conformity with the basic tenets of Islam. And, finally, it was against the national interests of Pakistan. General Pervez Musharraf changed all that following the terrorist attack on America. He joined the American led coalition against terrorism with global reach and, at the same time, began to re-define the role of Islam in the Pakistani society. During his stay in Washington - especially when addressing the American audiences - he emphasized that the Islam practised by the majority in Pakistan was not the Islam advocated by Osama bin Laden

and his followers.

Pakistanis were moderate in their view; religion for them was a private matter, not something to be projected by thestate; they were tolerant of other religions and respectful of the rights of the minorities. Above all, he explained, Pakistan did not believe in exporting its religion and its system of values to other countries and societies.

In his appearance at the National Press Club in Washington, President Musharraf was asked whether Pakistanwould partner the United States as the latter extends its campaign against terrorism to other countries. The questioner wanted to know if President Musharraf was prepared to assist Washington in its campaign against Iraq.

``We have plenty of pproblems of our own to keep us busy for a long while, why would we want to extend ourselves to other countries`` was the gist of his response. In other words, Pakistan will not export any ideology - Islamic orotherwise - to other countries and would not be engaged in advancing the interests of any country, including the United States, to places outside its borders.

The ``stans`` themselves came under the influence of Islam not by force exercised by a conqueror. They turned to Islam as a result of the work of a number of enlightened sufis whose message was centred on tolerance, compassion and brotherhood. That type of Islam could become the basis of ordering lives in these countries.

I indicated above that Pakistan along with the other ``stans`` in the Central Asian region must cross at least four hurdles before the economically powerful and industrialized world would take serious notice of it. The first was to reduce the burden of external debt so that domestic resources can be put to use for development. The second was to increase the outside world`s knowledge of the region and its awareness of the enormouseconomic potential it possesses. The third was to persuade a somewhat sceptical world that the people of theregion are not the followers of radical Islam. In so far as the political system is concerned - the fourth in my list ofhurdles to be crossed - it should be secular, not an extension of Islam. How could the region move towards such anoutcome and how Pakistan could help is a subject I will take up next week.

re: ylh

{{ by misquoting a post of another board, }}

misquote?? you wrote those words, not me; there`s no room for misquoting there.

{{ I do not appreciate people like Rsaxena bringing up my lineage. }}

dude, you brought it up, not me.

I DID NOT WRITE THOSE WORDS, YOU DID.

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SameerJB #41: ``By the way, another doctor, a kidney specialist was gunned down yesterday in Karachi and guess what Moin Uddin Haider said.``

Moinuddin Haider is the one who is actually taking on the extremist right. He is at great risk. His brother was recently assasinated. One would have to assume Moinuddin and Musharraf are doing a lot more at a much greater risk,than most Pakistanis. They are the two most likely people to be assasinated in the world.

I think we should appreciate their efforts. I would rate their work at a much much higher level than Khaled Ahmad, Pervez Hoodbhoy, etc.. The later are higlighting Pakistan`s faults (although they need to get out of their high concentration on religion, and look at other faults also). People like Musharraf and Moin are actually trying to solve these problems. The later task is much much much harder and more thankless than just pointing out the problems. Both groups should be appreciated. However you always tend to appreciate the Khaled Ahmads and are very critical of the Moin Hadiers. I think if these guys were not in the Army, you would be greatly appreciative of them.

I think Moinuddin is a Shia, himself. Which puts him at even a greater risk. He is doing a lot more to solve the problems of Pakistan, than you or I. Him and Musharraf need and deserve everyone`s support.

I completely support Ras Siddiqui`s call for a Paki Chair at Berkeley. Before the Pakis go out with a begging bowl asking for funding, let us outline some of the areas of exertise the Paki Chair ought to have:

1) How to quickly reduce the numbers of minority populations to below 0.1% levels. For this he or she could easily draw upon the post-Partition history of that shining beacon of pluralism: The Land of Pure, Pakistan.

2) How to brutalise, rape and murder over a million fellow Muslims with a kill-rate better than even Hitler. Again, the expert need look no further than that paragon of tolerance and gentleness: Pakistan. (ask the Bangladeshis, for an endorsement).

3) How to sprout fundamentalist and terrorist gangs of thugs: for this, the expert will have to hire some TAs from the Taliban stable. A position for a Paki mullah from the Balochistan area could be favorably considered for hands-on input and design of the coursework.

We can add to this list of activities as we think of more.

tantralogician

re: gfm

{{ I don`t understand why Indians are so anti-pakistan in the light of Mushrraf`s new vision. While not neccessarily giving up on Kashmir, he has come a long away and is fighting terrorism at home and abroad. }}

pakistan`s very character - dictatorships, non-secular tradition, and curbs on individual liberties - gives most indians allergic rashes...that is why indians will continue to be anti-pakistan...as for mooshraf, he hasn`t done jackshit other than talk...and his story on kashmir hasn`t changed one bit....

{ We can start by stopping verbal attacks on each other and limiting it to constructive dialogue. }

the only thing mooshraf wants to talk about is when india will meet his demands on kashmir...until he finds a new topic, there is nothing to talk about...

{{ Last time I check India and Pakistan were both in the coalition against terrorism }}

so are israelis and palestinians..and we know how much they all love each other....

...ironic how useless pakis talk about rights for kashmiris when they themselves don`t even have the right to elect their own leader...

...pakis lecturing india on gujarat riots is like apartheid era south africa lecturing the US on rodney king riots...one is incident based, the other is institutionalized...

Sarwari

For some reasons, ppl think that balanced debate is one in which all parties in the conflict r blamed. And this is against the very essense of debate. Read Manto to get the idea about it, when he discusses hindu-muslim fracticide in 47.

I am from pakistan, but i do not see one reason how one can support pakistan`s activities in Afghnaistan from 1979. How the GHQ pimped this country to Saudis and Americans to pit Afghans against Afghans in the name of freedom, islam, and other damned $hits.

Come mid 1980s, when Russians were pleading Americans to let them pull out, and Americans and Pakistanis were pulling them in because GHQ wants money and Americans want ebd of Soivit Union.

Come one puppet govt of Afghanistan, which under Burhan Uddin, rebelled and got out of Pakistan control, and GHQ started funnelling in money and arms (courtesy Saudis) to again cause more bloodshed.

Come Talibans, and all sort of butchery and savagery with it.

And then in kashmir, where continued arms and amunitions were supplied and pakistanis trained and dispatched to imitate what happend in Afghanistan.

Yes, some biased Indians may grunt and exaggerate more. Some might say kashmiris have always been happy and other BS. But it does not mean that one can forget pakistan past, and give GHQ a clean chit.

9/11`s responsibility is shared by Saudis, Pakistanis and Americans. I will hold USA more responsible as it was the prime motivator for all the fanatic movements beginning in 1979. But pimping pakistan to USA with som much willingness, was Pakistan`s main crime.

How can we ignore it?

Sarwari

``Radical=distinguished nowadays. :(``

This true if one is open/like minded. Seems to me that open minded it self has ben hijacked, it`s come to mean like minded. I saddened when I run across otherwise bright young Pakistanis so taken with the ideology and language of the radical left. Not only does such idology and language skew, distort reality, it makes arriving at solutions to problems, nonsensical. If the history of intellectualism can be described or can be said to be characterized by the supremacy of equations whereby we can a general statement can be derived from a particular and a particular statement from a general - perhaps it is now time to consider that as accuracy on one side of the equation increases, generality on the other side of the equation decrases.