Subcontinental Chain Reaction

veeresh

``Especially Pakistan is not a suitable entity for the protection of Muslims anywhere by a very long shot. Would you like me to spell it out? Bangladeshi Muslims, Afghan Muslims, Ahmediya Muslims, Sindhi Muslims, Shia in Sunni area Muslims, Sunni in Shia area Muslims, Leftist Muslims, democratic Muslims, freespeech Muslims, non-Armed Forces Muslims, educated Muslims, women Muslims, poor Hari Muslims, church going Muslims, liquor drinking Muslims, . . . all these and more types of Muslims are at risk in Pakistan``

........ i don`t know about the rest of them, but i can assure you that liquor drinking muslims are quite safe in pakistan ... as much as i like to complain about the crazy mullahs and the homicidal jihadis, pakistan is still a pretty safe place compared to baltimore, east st louis or detroit or ahmedabad .....and you can get pretty much what you want to drink if you don`t mind substituting chevas for black label or heineken for london lager ......... now, that does mean that things can get out of hand if the the various jamaats and jamiats have their way ..... every new year`s eve they make a big fuss about some silly islamic value and try to stop the faithful from getting inebriated and having a little fun, but most of the time they go away after denting a few cars and beating up a few punks with ear-rings - no big whup ........now that mushy is stepping on their tail they might stick to their mosques, maswaks and musallas ........

........ the ahmedis are the only people who have been brutally persecuted and that is because nobody has the guts to question the religious fatwa ...... even the most liberal of pakistanis will not stand up and say, `` so what if they want to call themselves muslims - more power to them`` .... i am truly baffled by this irratioinal behaviour - must be something to do with gabriel`s garbled message .........

..... the shias are holding their own so far , and as far as i can tell the only people who care about the shia-sunni thing are those who are obsessed with facial hair and the dietary habits of the prophet and the mating cycle of the saudi arabian dromedary.....it is not an issue with most people except during ramadhan, when heera mandi shuts down for ten days and the faithful have to find other sources of entertainment and cheap sex .........

How could we have prevented 650 deaths?

We should have prevented 58 deaths.

How could we have prevented 58 deaths?

We should have taught VHP/RSS/BJP a lesson not to rake up temple issue again.

How could we have ....arrrh, didn`t we teach them a lesson just days before by throwing all the monkeys out of office.

Bottomline: It`s up to Indian muslims to answer how they could prevent 58 deaths in future and it`s upto Indian hindus to answer how they could prevent 650 deaths in future.

As far as Pakis are concerned, they are just happy that we are stooping to their level and shamelessly happy about it.

I have a feeling that Indian hindus have an idea how to prevent atleast some of the deaths in future ... wait couple of years and you will see BJP will be wiped out in Gujurat and as well as India ... unless off-course 58 more deaths occur ... which will make Pakis happy (that`s where ISI comes into picture).

I feel that Indian muslims need a muslim Chandrababu Naidu to prevent 58 deaths and/or retaliatory 650 deaths. Any takers? Since, MJ Akber is busy being a role model to Tom Freidman ... how about you Zafar?

Now that I have read everything from Gauthier to

Tharoor to Vir Singhvi and every Truth and Lie about

the Gujerat murders, I would really like to hear what

people think. I have personally given it a lot of

thought and have run through a gamut of emotions which

were already raw after the Pearl murder.

What exactly is the problem in tearing down a

structure that I understand was not used as a masjid,

that is for worship, for 500 YEARS! what makes a place

a place of worship is that it is USED, people pray in

it, they meet en mass, they worship, they praise god,

do all those things that give a place of worship its

aura.

Yes the VHP is using this to beat the muslims over the

head with it, and they are suceeding. No Hindu truly

believes that the only sacred place in all of India is

in this little piece of rubble in Ayodhya in the god

forsaken backward state of UP. Hindus know that it is

the devotees prayers and worship and passion that

makes a temple a house of worship. Who in his right

mind would want to worship or find tranquility in a

temple that has been built over blood?

There are a gazillion ruined temples all over India.

They are structures not temples. The Golden Temple in

Amrithsar was used as a hideout by terrorists who

cooked and ate and slept and defecated in it. Churches

have been built over as masjid and temples converted

to churches and temples and cathedral plundered all

through history.

What is so special about this Babri Masjid in UP where

the literacy rate is pathetic?

If the muslims would stop responding to this VHP

nonsense exactly as they want them to and instead

focus on getting jobs, schools, drinking water, text

books, and medecine for their people would they not be

thumbing their noses at them? Would that not be a

sweeter victory? go build another masjid and let the

VHP have their damn temple. Let them fight it out in

the courts. It is only mortar and stones and dust. It

is not about Muslim dignity, spirituality, love, hope,

charity or any of that. It is not worth killing each

other. There are far, far more important things in

life to fight for.

This story speaks for itself. The pseudo-Hindu goons are driving India to disaster.

From Prof. Pankaj Chandra, IIMA ..........

The last few days have been the most trying for all in Gujarat. Some of us

(faculty and students) were in deep anguish over what had happened at Godhra

and Ahmedabad over the last few days. We had seen the city burn and were

unable to do anything to prevent it. We saw on the media, faces of families

plead for safety with police and saw pictures of families charred in the

train and in their private vehicles. We saw people beaten and then burnt to

death. And all this while our helplessness rose.

Yesterday morning about 60 of us - some faculty members and a number of

students sat outside the IIMA gate for a day long ``fast for peace``. We set

up durries and sat there quietly, put up posters asking for peace and

condemning the violence in Gujarat, and set up signup posters where any

citizen could sign for peace. Our purpose was to express our anguish over

meaningless violence, help build confidence in civil society in the city and

express support for non-violence in this land of Gandhi. And all of this was

done peacefully.

People started stopping by to sign our peace request poster - in couple of

hours there were over 300 who showed solidarity by signing it. But there

were others too. As soon as we set ourselves up, a Maruti Esteem stopped by

and four people stepped out and condemned us for what we were doing - they

accused us of being negligent of the majority community`s woes (we could not

convince that we were sitting in peace for all who have been affected in all

violent incidents in Gujarat), deplored us of where were we when killings

were happening in Kashmir, taunted us that we should sit in at Juhapura (one

of the areas that saw large scale violence) and see if we would survive

there and warned us that we were here in the city to teach management and

not indulge in ``politics``. Over a period of two hours several groups came

by, shouted at us and asked us to go inside the campus. They felt that we

were portraying a negative image of an area that was otherwise peaceful.

Several wellwishers amongst the dhabas outside the gate and from within the

campus also advised us that we should leave lest some people may hurt us. By

this time, word had spread in the city about a group of people from IIMA

who were holding a peace sit-in - by the way, this was the only civil

society statement in the city till then. Media also came to know about it.

Just then a crowd of twenty people walked over towards us. Most of us were

sitting quietly and few of us were standing around. The crowd was very

aggressive, repeated the same story (as others had done) to us, kept saying

that if were hindus then we should go indoors - we peacefully stood there

without getting provoked; our faculty & students kept sitting with placards

in their hands despite them being shouted at or being pushed; some in the

crowd pleaded with us to go away, some threatened us and the institute, some

counseled us and all condemned us as sympathizers of the minority. Soon we

started seeing people showing up with cricket bats and wickets. The group

tore all the posters and signature sheets and burnt some of them. They

started pulling the durries from underneath those who were sitting. At this

time we decided to walk away and go back into the institute. The crowd was

happy, their mission was accomplished, they raised slogans of Jai Shree Ram

and Bharat Mata ki Jai and walked way. Quiet once again prevailed at the

IIMA Gate.

The boys and girls from IIMA who were joined by several students of

CEPT/Gujarat University and staff of GIDR, PRL etc. were face to face with

boys & men like them - somewhere between 17 and 35 years - all wearing

decent clothing, some speaking impeccable english, mostly logical, many were

assiduously trying to explain to us their positions; they may have been

students and businesspeople and clerks as there must have been fathers and

brothers amongst them. Some said that there were two VHP municipal

counselors amongst them. While there was peace in the eyes and face of

those sitting, there was anger in the eyes of those who did not want us

there. And all of us saw the face of (un)civil society. This was a first

such contact for many - at one level it has shaken all of us - not because

of the aggression that we faced but because we lost the freedom to express

peacefully. And this is the land of Gandhi.

We came back in and continued our fast individually. We are very proud of

our students who sat with Gandhian ahimsa in their heart and peaceful

defiance of violence on their face. What they learnt was self restraint,

self respect, tolerance and the need for peace. I write this because I met

several brave boys and girls who any parent, any employer and the entire

society will be proud of. They have allowed to keep our faith in civil

society alive. The entire event, however, was education for all of us.

This time the violence was had some new characteristics: it was very

targeted - shops, houses and establishments of the minority community were

singled ou and destroyed; violence spread away from the old city to newer

and more affluent areas of the city; and prominent citizens (e.g., former

member of parliament, sitting judge of the high court, former chairman of

MRTP commission etc.) were also not spared. And worst still, since yesterday

``ten comandments`` are being circulated - some of these are - people should

not do business with the minority community, should not buy food from their

shops or go to their restaurants, should not hire them for jobs, should not

see films that have actors or directors etc form amongst this community etc.

This is sytematic violation of freedom in our country and the entire

government machinery,the prime minister, home minister, chief minister etc.,

are unable to utter one word of solace to the community. The CM of Gujarat

has ordered a judicial enquiry for Godhra, which is the right thing to do,

but is refusing to do the same in Ahmedabad and other cities. Such is the

face of the government. I hope people who support and finance these groups

within the country and abroad will learn from this event.

I just now came back from a peace march that was organized by the Gandhians

from Kochrab Ashram to Sabarmati Ashram (both were places where Gandhiji had

lived and are about 8 km apart) - this was attended by about 1000 people.

The mood was sombre but there was resolve to win over this situation. I

think Gandhiji is more relevant today than ever.

Hope things are well with you all.

I am just curious, do Pakistanis like Bina et al consider Afghan Muslims to be Muslims or tribals? Are Bangladeshis Muslims Muslims or are they hill tract people?

Suddenly deep silences from the ``hear hear`` brigade, out in full crocodile tear ensembles??

fairdinkum #59 Good to see you back. I think the point you make about the Indian having a democratic constitution but popular values being at odds with it is true. It is after all among the poorest countries in the world, with even the English speaking ``middle class`` being still quite primitive in their level of moral and intellectual development. The callous disregard for human tragedies (of which Gujerat is the latest example) and attitudes reflecting a primitive ``tribal affiliations`` behind all the savvy talk are obvious from many of the posts on chowk. Some hide behind the manter of ``ISI``, others (worse still) display that they are incapable of thinking beyond the level of a mob.

Having said that, I can also point to at least as many Indians (Stuka is perhaps the finest example, and there are others) who have demonstrated a depth of character and humanity. So, I wish to make two points here: (1) One cannot make a general statement about Indians with respect to level of development. There are many decent people among them, and in a couple of generations presumably the rest of their middle class will catch up. (2) We Pakistanis are not that different either.

The sad fact is that world we live in has people with vastly differing depths of thinking and vast differences in levels of moral development, but with the same level of knowledge and lingo. We have men capable of burning children to death (as happened in Gujerat) and we have men dedicating their entire lives to move the ``edge of the envelope`` forward a few few millimeters for the benefit of all humanity. The gap in the level of development between these two extremes is bigger than that between a chimp and a man.

I hope this post makes some sense since I have rambled on a bit.

faridinkum: hi.

Just wondering if you could give an update in what is going on in Pakistan. How has working in Pakistan been? Any changes from before.....

Reply #: 79 Ferozk from the `Empty Vessels` board.

`Zeemax, were you in Peshawar during the period of 1960s to early 70s?`

No I was there from the early 70`s to mid-70`s. Most people remember me there. Perhaps that`s how you thought I was there earlier when I wasn`t. My mark on Peshawar is indelible.

Rgds

DRUMZ and Banjaara,

On another board, you two had responded to one of my posts. If a cyber-embrace (the brotherly variety we offer one another on occasions of Eid and Diwali) does not embarrass you, let me send you one each - to Banjaara for knowing more about Hinduism than I would ever want to know (and Banjaara ji, one can love one`s ``enemies`` too:)); and to DRUMZ for being ``so me`` at his age, except that he is far smarter, far wiser, far more knowledgeable, and far more articulate than I ever was or may be.

I have perforce taken a back seat. What we have gone through has caused a turmoil in my mind, and deep pain in my soul.... At a moment like this, sniping at each other seems so grotesque. It is time for self-analysis, introspection, and quietude.

Ref Zeemax #: 56

[What are the kiloton yields of the weapons Pakistan tested and India tested ? The answers lead to the nuclear doctrines of both countries.]

India`s 1998 tests are supposed to have yielded 12 kilotons for the fission weapon and about 32 kilotons for the fission-fusion weapon, though India claimed more than that for the fission-fusion weapon.

Pakistan`s weapons also are reported to have yielded less (4-6 kilotons) than the yield claimed by Pakistani authorities (18 kilotons).

Do you mean to say that with less powewrful weapons Pakistan has no choice but to use them first and thus invite annihilation?

`What is revolting is that he is backed by none other than the self professed statesman of India -the wishy-washy Prime Minister Vajpaye.`

Pakistan should help us conquer the Hindus.

More or less like each other?

Najam Sethi`s



E d i t o r i a l



An acclaimed Indian Muslim “secularist” recently lambasted Mohammad Ali Jinnah as “the man who single-handedly divided India in 1947”. That is not true. While Mr Jinnah certainly created Pakistan single-handedly, it was Mr Jawaharlal Nehru and Mr Vallabhbhai Patel who jointly presided over the division of India by compromising with the Hindu communalists within the Congress party and pushing Mr Jinnah out of their fold. The sad irony was that it was Mr Gandhi who had to pay the price of their folly with his own life by insisting on a secular ideal for India. That lesson remains lost on many Indians even today.

Since 1969, over 10,000 people have died in communal clashes in Ahmadabad, which fact bemoans the passing of Mr Gandhi’s dream into a sectarian nightmare. Last week, over 600 innocent Muslims died in Gujarat and at least 30,000 were rendered homeless. Nearly 30 mosques in Ahmadabad were razed to the ground. Ten years ago, Hindu militants ran amuck in Ayodhya and sparked communal riots which left over 2000 people dead.

Well meaning secular Indians rightly berate Pakistan for being an “ideological and authoritarian state”, proudly pointing to their own country’s “secular and democratic” moorings. Yet they overlook the frightening similarities between the fundamentalists of the two countries, those in Pakistan who have declared war on Hindu India and the infidel West and those in India who talk of protecting or strengthening the “Hindu nation”, those who wield the trident, stick and firetorch in India and those who carry automatic rifles and advocate an Islamic state for the “Muslim nation” in Pakistan. Both may be minorities within their faiths but both have powerful political supporters in the civil and military hierarchies of their own countries.

The impulse of Hindu-Muslim communalism is rooted in the politics of medieval Indian history. Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism emanated from within the soul of ancient India and therefore didn’t lead to violent conflagration. But Islam arrived from outside India as a “conquering” force through the sword of the “temple breaking” Muslim hordes or on the back of “liberating” Muslim saints and mystics. Later the British imperialists aggravated religious tensions by politicizing the divide. The birth of Pakistan followed because Indian secularists couldn’t comprehend the nature of the communal challenge posed by the Hindus communalists within their fold rather than as a result of Muslim League belligerence in quest of a Muslim “nation”. But just as Pakistani Muslims should have stopped their search for a “Muslim nation” after the formation of their state in Pakistan in 1947 (as Mr Jinnah had advocated) but didn’t do so to their everlasting disarray, so too the Hindus should have stopped clamouring for a Hindu “nation” in India (as Mr Gandhi had pleaded) but didn’t do so to their recurrent dismay. Indeed, if many of Pakistan’s post-independence woes can be laid at the door of its “Muslim ideologues”, some of India’s problems have been accentuated by its Hindu revivalists who seek to define and enlarge Hinduism in the same erroneous manner of Islamism in Pakistan.

Of course, the rise of Islam as a “civilisational” force following the eruption of oil politics in the 1970s has hurt both countries. In Pakistan it fertilized the ground for the emergence of Ziaism and provided the impetus for the Saudi-American sponsorship of jihad in Afghanistan. In India, it laid the seeds of a counter-civilisational response in the form of Hindutva. The articulation of this “civilisational” behaviour was manifest in India by the advent of the “smiling Buddha” in 1974, a reference to India’s “peaceful nuclear explosions”, and in Pakistan by the launching of plans to build the “Islamic bomb” subsequently. Pakistan now came to be cast in the mould of an Islamic state while India began to shed its secular leanings in favour of a Hindu Rashtra. In Pakistan the process of Islamising the state was fed by the ambitions of the military while in India the BJP could not have scaled the heights of the state without the democratic votes and financial power of civil society. Over time, the failed authoritarianism of Pakistan and the successful democratization of India have led them to the same ideological cul-de-sac. In trying to disprove the political legitimacy of each other, both countries have mirrored the compulsions and concerns of the religious impulse in the other.

The most indelible memory of Partition is of railway carriages filled with mutilated corpses of Hindus and Muslims. Five decades later, the blood lust of both communities in India was fanned by exactly the kind of circumstances that fueled the slaughters in 1947, making India’s orgy of secular self-immolation look like some hoary fantasy. The irony is that it is General Pervez Musharraf who wants to liquidate fundamentalism and separate religion from politics in Pakistan today while India’s prime minister in waiting, Mr L K Advani, remains a staunch supporter of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad which seeks a “Hindu Rashtra”. The truth is that if India and Pakistan want to be stable and prosper together, they must be more like each other in secular outlook and less like each other in religious terms.

# fairdinkum

Good Insight. But I am afraid you have generalized a little too much about India. I agree with you that in many aspects, we are still not there. And we are still a third world country. But I guess most of the Indians take pride of the fact that, not many countries who are so diverse as we and started off from the same position are better than us.

Having said that, what happens occasionally,(the Gujarat incident et al) needs to be prevented at any cost. None of the `diversity` and `Secular` Constituions excuses would wash those inhumance occurences.

But we are moving ahead. You might have noticed that there are only some pockets in India where this happens. Many other volatile places in India remained peaceful.

If nothing else, these incidents remind us, that we have lot more ground to cover before we can be truly proud of ourselves as a nation, as a people. And I am confident that one day we can reach it.

Rgds,

Re fairdinkum #60

[In my view, unless economic benefits associated with an open, secular, and democratic society are evenly and (more importantly) “justly” shared by the society....]

Aren`t the aims of an open, democratic, secular society and an economically ``just`` society contradictory? I guess many political scientists say that equality and liberty are contradictory aims. Conservatives choose liberty (open, democratic societies) and liberals choose equality (just, even society) as more important goal. If you have an economically open and a politically democratic society, it`s inevitable that some humans would turn out like Bill Gates and some like the homeless guy on the pavement.

Regards

re:Reply #: 58

Urstruly,

By religious leaders, i meant the Shankaracharyas, the people connected with interpretation of scriptures, the hindu equivalent of mullahs.

VHP and the rest are political organisations with raking up religious issues. Is singhal a religious leader? Heck, no. There is a difference. But perhaps for myopic Pakis like you, all are same.

Sridhar

The writer has only mentioned Jehadi`s in Pakistan. He is oblivious of the fact that biggest danger to India`s democracy is VHP, RSS, Ranbir Sena and Shiv Sena. In this ever changing World, the real threat comes from within and not from outside.

How in a democracy, the religious fanatics can go on to burn innocent people alive. I do not care what is the religion of people who died. First and foremost they were fellow human beings and equal citizen of Indian State.