Subcontinental Chain Reaction

Re: Rajanjua

``...Indus originates in what is now India...``

No, it does not. Indus originates in Tibet.

Re: Zeemax # 178

Please correct me, if I am wrong.

My understanding was that there was no concept of a ritualized clergy in Islam and the rise of a clery in Islam was more of a political necessity than it was, because of a religious complusion.

By ordaining for themselves the power to interpret Islam and its teachings, the clergy managed to establish a political role for themselves. In other words, it is the interpretation of the clergy of Islam and its teachings, which is given to us and we have to accept them; denying them amounts to challenging the political power of the clergy, with its intended consequences.

In this sense, are the blasphemy laws designed to protect Islam or silence political opposition, as those laws are presently practiced in Pakistan?

If my interpretation of Islam and its teachings is different from yours, who is right and who is wrong? If my interpretation is different from the offical clergy`s, am I wrong and are they right? Does an interpretation, by defination, has to be uniformal or it can be different? If it can be different, can the clergy`s interpretation be considered as wrong?

Secondly, are the clergy`s interpretation based on a holistic view of Islam or do they subscribe to a particular viewpoint of Islam, such as the Deobandi school of thought, as an example? If the clergy`s interpretation is absolute, where does that leave the issue of dissent of that interpretation? Does dissent imply a questioning of a particular view of Islam or the religion itself and who decides what consitutes as a dissent? If dissent of a particular viewpoint of Islam and its teachings is not allowed and dissent is prohibited in the name of an uniformal orthodoxy of opinions, does that not encourage extermism, because of a failure to tolerate a different opinion?

Thirdly; why has Islam, as a religion, been subjected to extermism? Is it, because of our interpretations, which do not brook dissent and in doing so, polarize the issues, with extermism and extermist acts being only the form of dissent available? If that is the case, is the real problem with Islam or our interpretations, which have characterized the religion of Islam as an extermist religion?

Consequently, if we interpret Islam, then the perception of Islam being an extermist religion is our own creation, and the extermism in Islam is not a result of its teachings, but the results of our own interpretations of those teachings, is it not? So, who is extermist? Islam, as a religion or its followers? Where is the fault and with whom does the problem originate with?

I am not expecting a reply from you, but please do consider these questions as food for thought, if for nothing else.

Ciao

Zeemax #178 Thanks for posting the URL to the Quran. Unfortunately, and this obviously escaped your attention, this web page is not free of a middleman - it includes ``helpful`` explanations by Sahih Bokhari (a most egregious middleman). I would recommend the following ``virus free`` version (Yusuf Ali`s translation of the Quran pure and simple, with no self-appointed middleman)

http://www.uah.edu/msa/quranYusufali.html

re: shah

#175 was not posted by me but thanks for including me in sameer`s company.

Zeemax #178 Thanks for posting the URL to the Quran. Unfortunately, and this obviously escaped your attention, this web page is not free of a middleman - it includes ``helpful`` explanations by Sahih Bokhari (a most egregious middleman). I would recommend the following ``virus free`` version (Yusuf Ali`s translation of the Quran pure and simple, with no self-appointed middleman)

http://www.uah.edu/msa/quranYusufali.html

re: shah

#175 was not posted by me but thanks for including me in sameer`s company.

Reply #: 132 Ferozk

[I agree with tahmed321`s comments and I agree with you; Islam`s message is simple, but its interpretations by the religous clergy have distorted its message.]

For all who`re interested, here`s the URL for the complete Qura`an with translation. The internet has made it easy now to cut out the middlemen:

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/naeindex.htm

Rgds

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Ref harimau #: 176

[Roohi,

I have a rough estimate of those numbers. But I will get back to you about this next weekend after I have some credible sources.

In short the figure mentioned by KK Sahini is completely inaccurate ... I know Lahore had a population 500 000-600 000 Sikhs and 400 000-500 000 Hindus.]

I did NOT post this message.

Chowk screwed up.

Roohi,

I have a rough estimate of those numbers. But I will get back to you about this next weekend after I have some credible sources.

In short the figure mentioned by KK Sahini is completely inaccurate ... I know Lahore had a population 500 000-600 000 Sikhs and 400 000-500 000 Hindus.

SameerJB #168 You provide a very interesting observation regarding how the Indus river overcame the forces of collision of two mighty continents - the original Asian continent with the Indian continent ramming into it (at 150 millimeters an year, which I understand is very high speed for land mass movements) 50 million or so years ago.

I had not read this part on Asian rivers and how they were impacted by this geological movements. Could you provide any references (preferably available on the internet, but books will be OK too)?

RE: Reply #: 153 shankar

``This is NOT about free speech. This is trampling on the fundamental constitutional rights of others. Do you think that the Justice system in India would have come to these people`s rescue?! When people are pushed past a certain limit, they resort to violence. I`m not condoning the violence. However, I feel there was sufficient provocation to start this nonsense.``

This is a total copout. Let`s not justify violence. Just because policing on the train and stations was not efficient enough to have caught the mischief makers and evict them doesn`t give an excuse for the vandals to set fire to the train. Besides there is no such thing as ``spontaneous`` mob mentality. Most of it is guided to achieve the perpetrators` ends. I have a really nice bridge to sell to anyone who thinks that those who set fire to the bogeys didn`t comprehend the consequences.

As for ``trampling on constitutional rights`` I had posted an article by M.J. Akbar in another thread about how Muslim leaders used the Shah Bano case to make a mockery of the Constitution to climb up the political ladder, which started the steady rise of the Hindu far right and culminated in Babri Masjid and beyond. One simple civil and constitutional rights issue misused has led to calamity for the whole of the Muslim community.

Don`t get me wrong. The VHP/Bajrang Dal are full of s * *t. But so are guys like Bukhari, Shahabuddin and extremist Muslim groups which encourage a ghetto and siege mentality to maintain political power just like Ashok Singhal and his friends.

The trick is for people from all sides of the great divide to see through the shennanigans of their leaders. Just like Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts or Jimmy Swaggert were promptly shot down when they tried to set the politicial agenda, so should Indians go after all extremists, be it Hindus or Muslims.

SameerJB #168

``You are right that Indus originates in what is now India. ``

Sameer, Indus originates in Tibet.

``On a different plane of knowledge, Indus is truly an Asian river rather than South Asian. It is the only surviving river of Asia before Indian plate buckled under the Tibetan and Asian plate creating Himalayas thus blocking all other rivers` passage to the Sea.``

Geographically, it is not exactly correct. Brahmaputa, Kali Gandaki and few other rivers survived Himalayas. Kali Gandaki in Nepal is really a big river and one of the largest tributaries of Ganga.

rsridhar #134

The people of he India will crush the BJP ...

It`s hard to do nothing while bubbling with rage over the injustice of it all - so here are some rather wild suggestions for those of you in India - the pity of it is, they might even work ...

1. Dress up as a Sadhu and go to all the temples in your city. Tell anyone who will listen that all the Ram Murtis in India are crying tears of blood, the bricks and stones the VHP wants to worship have turned red and a Laxman Rekha has appeared around the babri masjid site which will Bhasam the Ram Sevaks if they try to cross it.Yell ``Alak Niranjan`` and ``Jai Shri Ram`` as you spin this. Veeresh urf Balti Baba, you might be the man for the job !

2. Take out a Ramlila jaloos in your area with a mock Ramlila in which Modi is the Ravan, complete with 10 heads, the Ram Sevaks are the Ravan Sena and Vajpayee is Kumbhkaran but he sleeps through the whole war.

3. Have a satsang and sing Gandhis favorite bhajans - vaishnavajan, raghupati raghav etc. Hand out free T-shirts and flashy bumper stickers to everyone who attends these that say ``Raghupati Raghav Raja Ram, kya kar dala tere naam`` and ``Don`t Disgrace my Dharma``.

4. Have the Indian Cricket team go on National TV to appeal for peace - they might not listen to Vajpayee but how about Sachin ???

5. Hold an ``aakhand ramayan katha`` for communal harmony and read it on loudspeakers non-stop - day and night around the 15th - every half an hour, appeal for communal harmony on the same loudspeaker - invite all your local guru holy men types - whatever their real sympathese they all love the publicity, and the chance to pontify and be seen as reasonable.

any other suggestions people ....?

Sameer

``On a different plane of knowledge, Indus is truly an Asian river rather than South Asian. It is the only surviving river of Asia before Indian plate buckled under the Tibetan and Asian plate creating Himalayas thus blocking all other rivers` passage to the Sea. Other rivers turned into lakes and with further rise in elevation left as dried out lake beds. Indus was fortunate to found valleys and crevices at the intersection of former Asian and on-the-move Indian plate through ages to found its way down to the Arabian sea.

Indus could be a remarkable metaphor of our social evolution as Indus people - as Asian, South Asian, Indian/ Pakistani, Punjabi/ Sindhi/ Pathan etc - changing course with changing time out of necessity yet never breaking the link to its origins.

``

I love this analogy :-). We are all Indus people...

re:Reply #: 115

veeresh,

I agree with you when you say that ``it is all about steel trunk``. This usually happens when the law and order breaks down (as it did during partition). Hooligans, starting on a pretext, take over. Then it becomes ``all about steel trunk`` as you put it. Our job is to ensure law and order never breaks down. In Gujarat riots, it would never have broken down had the local govt been more responsive.

Sridhar