Subcontinental Chain Reaction

rajanjua #160:

[``Next, the Indus river originates in the mountains of Northern Pakistan from glaciers (I have actually been so fortunate to have stood on one of the black-ice glaciers where the Indus originates into a great well, on a mountain side in the Hunza valley``

Indus originates in what is now India.]

You are right that Indus originates in what is now India. At the same time it is true that Indus really pick up steam (or water) from glaciers and other smaller rivers as it passes through Hunza valley. The Indus in India is rather a stream and even blocking all of the water of Indus on Indian side will make little change in the quantity of water down stream.

On a different plane of knowledge, Indus is truly an Asian river rather than South Asian. It is the only surviving river of Asia before Indian plate buckled under the Tibetan and Asian plate creating Himalayas thus blocking all other rivers` passage to the Sea. Other rivers turned into lakes and with further rise in elevation left as dried out lake beds. Indus was fortunate to found valleys and crevices at the intersection of former Asian and on-the-move Indian plate through ages to found its way down to the Arabian sea.

Indus could be a remarkable metaphor of our social evolution as Indus people - as Asian, South Asian, Indian/ Pakistani, Punjabi/ Sindhi/ Pathan etc - changing course with changing time out of necessity yet never breaking the link to its origins.

sattar: I was wondering when one of u would bring the ``SEAL`` thing up. Its too bad that u didn`t focus on his hypocrisy and retardicity. Did no one else find it funny that Zeemax was talking about how simple the Q is and asking OTHERS to read its translation when he doesnt know simple things like the Quran goes outta its way to not call Muhammed the last messenger???

Sameer: I dont see how u connected things like the alpha-omega and the aum with alif lam meem. At least try and explain all the other letters in the Quran which make no sense. I think rashad khalifa was on to something with the math. The other theory i liked was that those suras were dropped by the female gods (Elohim) and the letters were their initials. Something tells me its all one big azz practical joke Allah`s playing on us (much like earthquakes).

sameerjb

.....thanks for the detailed explanation on alif laam meem - now it all makes sense ..... the fact that i never really undersood what alif laam meem meant doesn`t bother me as much as what comes next ......``this Book is not to be doubted`` - now that is a little presumptuous and kind of cocky even for those who are not from missouri .........

rsridhar #158:

…have not interacted with you before and hope you forgive this intrusion…something caught my eye

[… All of us, hindus and muslims (especially hindus)need to feel ashamed at what is happening in India…]

…would like to second that…BUT with these changes….

“All of us SHOULD be ashamed at EVERY loss of life in our countries that is the result of internecine AND international violence.”

…once we aim for zero tolerance towards loss of every life we would be well on our way to become ‘insaan’ from the rather pedantic ‘aadmi’…

we are…and should be ‘insaans’ first before we lay claim to be ‘whatever’….(definition of whaterver---hindu, muslim, sikh, indian, pakistani,sri lankan…)

rgds,

t

Zeemax

``In the final analysis, a war between India and Pakistan cannot be `Won` by either side. My dear friend, I would rather extend a hand of friendship and love, than to talk about military doctrines and nukes. I would rather meet my friends in Calcutta and Delhi than to be a piece of charcoal. These are my true feelings. I would like to extend a hand of mutual respect and understanding between both peoples. After all we have the same roots.

``

My friend, we are waiting at the wagah border to embrace you. To tell you the truth, Indians also feel the fatigue of purposeless proxy war and nothing would please us more than cordial relations with our neighbours. Aap ek kadam badhaiye, hum do badhayenge. But some of us are unsure of your govt`s motives. Will we be stabbed again in the back, a la-Kargil? Or does your govt wants to extend the hand of friendship

only after we offer the whole of Kashmir including Jammu and Leh on a platter? My friend, the foundations of true friendship should be based on trust, a faith that neither country will try to alter the borders of the other or interfere in the internal matters of the other anymore.

re:Reply #: 74

hassann,

Read how nazis in Germany came to power. They made use of the existing democratic setup for their nefarious designs.

BJP and its buffoons (Shiv Sena, VHP)are trying to do the same. It is upto the people to speak out through elections. Usually, when a party starts indulging in such acts, you can be sure its power base is eroding and it sees no reason to pay even a lip service to secularism.

Sridhar

Shankar #153 Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! May you have many many more vacations, and may the waters always be clear, and the skies blue and the companion in the mood!!

re:Reply #: 51

What i meant was, Kanchi Shankaracharya has taken a stance to await the court verdict. I should have written ``pro-legal`` instead of ``pro-temple``. His stance was certainly not pro-temple. He, like the muslims, has reposed confidence in our legal system.

Sridhar

``Next, the Indus river originates in the mountains of Northern Pakistan from glaciers (I have actually been so fortunate to have stood on one of the black-ice glaciers where the Indus originates into a great well, on a mountain side in the Hunza valley``

Indus originates in what is now India.

re:Reply #: 99

roohi,

It is not just the reaction of the hindus in Gujarat that bothers me but also the compliance of the state apparatus and the general mood of apathy of common hindu in that state. Where is the average hindu who is always known to be secular?

We have a party, which, having failed at getting votes through secular means, is going through a different route. It has taken the help of VHP but make no mistake these are all same people in different disguises. They call themselves sangh parivar.

Read the book ``Rise and fall of the third reich`` and see how the nazi party bulldozed its way to power. It actually took advantage of the state democratic apparatus to do this. It came at a time when the Weimar republic was on its way out (just like BJP coming to power when Congress lost power, with its secular credentials tarnished)and there was popular resentment against humiliation at Treaty of Versailles following WW1.

We have a party that says it represents the middle class. Do the middle class want to harm the muslims in India? I do not think so. Let us smell this SH!T for what it is. If BJP is not crushed by people of India, then God save that country.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 95

shankar,

It is the BJP. Do not blame every hindu for what is happening. The ideology of secularism is being challenged by BJP. As its a$$ gets whipped more and more in future elections, you will see the true color of BJP unfold before you, as is happening now. It has come to the conclusion that it will never be able to get muslim votes and has gone for vote catching gimmicks like the temple issue all over again. The buffoons in that party never learn. UP elections should have taught them that it is all bread and butter issue but no. They still delude themselves.

I agree with the spirit of your post. All of us, hindus and muslims (especially hindus)need to feel ashamed at what is happening in India.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 87

InYourFace,

I agree with you. BJP`s downfall has started already. It will take some time. If BJP does not change its colors and become truely secular, it will face defeats everywhere. It has no idea how many secular people are there in India. It is not just muslim vs hindus.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 86

Star Buck,

It is the principle that matters. What is one mosque? Perhaps, it may mean nothing to hindus but to muslims, they see destruction of this mosque as a blow to secular credentials of India. Then, they fear what will happen next. Once a tiger tastes blood, it goes for the next kill. The tiger of communalism is raising its ugly head. It needs to be defeated. Once that is done, we can all sit down and talk about logic. Yes, muslims need good education, schools etc. But secualrism goes beyond all that. It is necessary for the very survival of India.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 85

Akash,

Gujarat is putting us all to shame. This frenzy may spread to other states. Now we know that BJP and its allies are no better than nazis. When a weak kneed P.M does nothing but mouth some platitudes, we can be sure we are moving towards a disaster. Advani and his ilk need to be shot at daylight. They and not Shahabuddin or Shahi Imam are the real enemies of India.

Sridhar

Zeemax #149

``Next, the Indus river originates in the mountains of Northern Pakistan from glaciers (I have actually been so fortunate to have stood on one of the black-ice glaciers where the Indus originates into a great well, on a mountain side in the Hunza valley), passes through Punjab, and supplies water to Sind. It`s not the other way around as you have said. Also, the Indus river has nothing to do with Indian territory. The whole river is within Pakistan territory. There`s no way India could cut off water in the Indus river. ......``

Zeemax, I remember once trekking & climbing for a month along Indus in Ladakh. I went back and checked my maps.

According to maps, Indus originates somewhere in Tibet, enters Ladakah and about 11 miles after Leh meets its first major tributory Zhanskar. It than flows past Batalik and enters Pakistani`s territory.

I have verified this from ``Survey of India`` maps, from few encyclopedias and from few web sites.

One quote from http://www.pakistaneconomist.com/database1/Tourism/Geography/21r.html

``The Indus, one of the great rivers of the world, rises in southwestern Tibet only about 160 kilometers west of the source of the Sutlej River, which joins the Indus in Punjab, and the Brahmaputra, which runs eastward before turning southwest and flowing through Bangladesh. ``

A detailed map is accessible at http://www.jktourism.org/cities/ladakh/map.htm.

Another reference from http://www.xrefer.com/entry/506555

``A river in S central Asia, one of the longest in the world. Rising in SW Tibet in the Himalayas, it flows NW through Kashmir, then SSW across Pakistan to its large delta near Karachi on the Arabian Sea.``

Another quote from http://www.lashkar-e-islam.org/Geography.htm

``The Indus River is the major river of Pakistan and originates in Tibet near the Kashmir border. Jhelum is the river that runs thru the valley of Kashmir. It forms Wular lake, which is the largest fresh water lake in India. ``

I agree with your last statement though, there is no way for India to block Indus. Indus flowing in upper reaches of Ladakah is a relatively small river. Total water body of Indus is formed by many other tributories. And blocking of even smaller Indus will be gigantic task. It will play havoc with Ladakh and Zhanskar valley.

PS: Is it possible that partition also divided out perspective of geography.

harimou,

{{Just as I expected, here you are out blaming the Hindu pilgrims for chanting `Jai Shri Ram`. By the same logic, shouldn`t Hindus be justly inflamed if they hear `Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim...` or `Allaho Akbar`?}}

This is what happens when idiots like you read my post & totally misinterpret it.

Firstly, I will believe that post in Washington Post, more than any Indian publication. Heck, I`m going to include it in my April editon of the Amercan Journal of Janitorial Psychiatry; of which, undoubtedly, I`m the editor.

The article says hindu VHP thugs on Carriage S5&6 were exposing themselves to passengers, romoving headscarfs off muslim women, evicted a family of 4 on some desolate station because they refused to chant, helped themselves to tea & snacks at every station off poor vendors who try to eke out a living.

I`m not objecting to them chanting religious slogans.

The news of this kind of hooliganism spread like wildfire to Gohra. They atarted harrassing muslim vendors at the station & even locked the daughter of a vendor when she protested.

This is NOT about free speech. This is trampling on the fundamental constitutional rights of others. Do you think that the Justice system in India would have come to these people`s rescue?! When people are pushed past a certain limit, they resort to violence. I`m not condoning the violence. However, I feel there was sufficient provocation to start this nonsense.

This Babri Masjid issue is fanned by the RSS & VHP. I hope to God, that we hindus have some shame

& acknowlege this ``collective responsibility``. Saying this problem is political, not ``religious`` is a copout. This is politics BASED upon religious differences. If we use something as sacred as religion to trample the rights of others, then we have lost any semblance of the delusion of ``moral superiority`` of our political system.

The only way to amend this, that I can think of ,is that no hindu should let the BJP off the hook. Vote them out of power & make them irrelevant. Those people who vote for the BJP have to ultimately take responsibility for this. If you think that the BJP endorses secularism, I`ll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.