Riots

Naqshbandi,

First one of the major reasons Jinnah fell out with Gandhi was Gandhi`s unjustified support for the stupid Khilafat. So my claim is not just a claim but a fact. Another fact is that both Iqbal and Jinnah stayed miles away from the Khilafat movement ... which they considered to be stupid and idiotic.

Listen carefuly. I have tolerated your hijacking of my pristine faith for long now,... You are not a Muslim, you the exact opposite of a Muslim, and I won`t even insult Kafirs by saying that you are a Kafir... You are my little naive pos, `an Un-Muslim`. I think I know 100 times more about Islam than you do... and this is also not a mere claim, but this is a fact. People like you have hijacked Islam for many centuries now. You don`t what you are talking about... the difference between the likes of you and those who threw stones at the Holy Prophet at Taif is that they did in the name of Deen e Ibrahimi, and you do your nonsense in the name of Nizam e Mustafa. They didn`t have anything to do with `Deen e Ibrahmi` nor do you really have anything to do with the true `Nizam e Mustafa.`

Prophet Muhammad was a realist par excellence. He and his companions acted according to the dictates of Human reason, and it earned them success over all of Arabia. Prophet Muhammad was Sadiq and Amin, his honesty and integrity are the real sunnah of his life. Prophet Muhammad was a genuine military strategist and real politik genius. These are his virtues which are incumbent upon every Muslim to follow (and two only of them in the last century did,.. should I say Ataturk and Jinnah? amazing isn`t it one`s first name was Mustafa and other`s first name was Mohammed) .

Prophet Muhammad didn`t establish Khilafah or any such thing. The title of Khalifah tul Rasool Allah was adopted arbitrarily by Abu Bakr Siddiq, and Umar on the other hand didn`t even fashion himself to be much of a Caliph but rather Ameer ul Momineen and the ruler of Arabian commonwealth.

Your Islam (or should I say `UnIslam`) is a Dogma. My Islam, the True Islam of the Holy Prophet, is an evolving entity. Your Islam ( or should I say `UnIslam) concentrates on the daily actions of the Holy Prophet, how he ate with his hands, and how he bathed, and performed ablution and even how he made love... My Islam, the True Islam of the Holy Prophet, concentrates on his virtues as an Honest man, a statesman, a Law giver and a Leader of men. Your UNIslam is preoccupied with theological BS. My Islam is concerned with the welfare of the people. Your UnIslam is a CHAIN that needs to BROKEN. My Islam is the spirit of Modernity, progress and Humanity. Your UnIslam is IRRATIONAL. My Islam is RATIONAL. Your UnIslam needs clutches of the state to succeed, My Islam is without clutches. Your UnIslam thrives on oppression, My Islam fights oppression. Your UnIslam is backward bigoted and theocratic, My Islam is Forward looking, tolerant and Democratic.

THIS is the DIFFERENCE between you and me, and your unIslam and my ISLAM!

#494

As far as bride-traffic goes you can add the Parsis too. My dad`s secretary in Bombay married a guy from Karachi (though they live in London now).

(I remember being horrified as a kid to find out that she was ``marrying the enemy`` :-))

Zafar, Shammi

`sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh)`

Shammi, if that caught your eye, you should check out the ginan literature (particularly its early versions). You will be knocked off your seat, most pleasantly, ofcourse. How long this tradition will survive, I don`t know...but I pray it does.

Zafar,

Advani and Sushma as Pakistani agents! No wonder VHP is on a rampage in India...hmmm...now I get it.

But don`t underestimate us UPites. One of our sons is the Pakistani ruler..

Our spooks ARE better than theirs.

ylh #486: Heh! Heh! Glad to see you are able to take time off from your historic nation-building duties to check out the patriotic paki models on the internet as well. Even Asif N. is able to take his eyes off books written by various hazraat for a minute to check out the khwaateen. Alhamdulillah, as Asif says, and Models Zindabad as you would say.

#488

Doesnt Musharaff`s uncles family still live in Old Delhi?

Subroto/Zafar

Good to chat with you guys - you`re making me homesick.

OK I agree about the lousy Melbourne weather - though let me say Boston makes Melbourne look tropical !! That`s why my parents retired in Sunny Brissie and I`m stuck going back there instead of Melbourne where I spent most of MY time in OZ. Hence the fixation on footy vs rugby. Since the Patriots won the Superbowl I must say I have even started catching Football here !

Sobroto, if you really are in Brisbane (Oh to have a Devonshire Tea on Mt. Cootah - much more me than meat pies actually!!) please watch out for a gora (for an indian),kanji ankhon aur moochwala, taklu, stubborn, opinionated but lovely through and through Unkal Jee probably changing lanes illegally in typical desi fashion on Coronation Drive - for that shall be my Poojya Pitajee - tell him beti number 3 says hello !

No more of this stuff - or I`ll have to buy a ticket to Godzone !!

Re: Naqshbandi

``.... I am a simple layman and follow the scholars!...``

Not good enough! Should you not follow YOUR OWN interpretation of the Koran as opposed to what someone tells you what they THINK is correct?

Re: Zafar Al Talib

This is completely off topic, but it lit a light bulb inside my brain. When you said, `sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh)` it became clear to me why, as Punjabi youngsters in Delhi, we used to refer to certain kites that demonstrated perfect aerodynamic characteristics (`patangs, guddis and guddas` for those in the know) as being `sudd` or to be more accurate `suddh`. Ditto for cricket bats. I never understood the meaning until now. Thanks for making a not inconsiderable contribution to me getting better sleep at night!

R: Fuzair

OK - back to the topic

The fact that UP/Mohajir families with in India are under some sort of a cloud (in the Army?) of being suspected of double loyalties is news to me. If true, then it surely must be an irony in the sense that it were the stalwarts from that community that contributed to the formation of Pakistan in no small measure.

I recently had a conversation with my 70 year old father who has spent all his life in Delhi, and interacted with many Muslims in pre-Partition Delhi on the approximate topic (for lack of a better phrase) of `Muslim loyalty` to India. His assessment is that there has been a sea change for the better over the years of how Muslims are perceived by Hindus. It is rare (and you have to dig quite deep amongst Partition victims of the previous generation or petty traders that form the bulk of the BJP support base to find a bigot these days). The popular indicator for such a change is the attitudes is the shifting stance of the Shahi Imam Bukhari of Delhi`s Jama Masjid. The current Imam`s father (who I believe was the Imam during Partition) could best be described as an Indian dissident (someone correct me here) who lost no opportunity to distance himself from ANY government in India, and never quite repudiated TNT, thus fuelling suspicions. The current Imam, loses no opportunity to play up his `Indianess` and to remind his flock that their home is India, and that another Partition will not be allowed. Further, these religious leaders have of late reposed greater trust in India`s secular institutions than their Hindu counterparts. I think that the `71 war, Pakistan`s unsuccessful meddling in Punjab and Kashmir, the Zia legacy, and the gradual divergence of India-Pakistani polities have played a role in changing both Muslim and consequently, Hindu attitudes.

Re: Zafar

Actually it works both ways, as far as the `traffic` in brides goes. A few months back I met an Indian, Rajput from Indore, whose first cousin was married to a Sindhi Hindu in Karachi. (Sindh still has a largish Hindu minority and some of them are pretty large landowners). He told me about the fuss made by some of their relatives as to the propiety of ``giving`` a girl to a Pakistani. He was interested in comparing notes on Karachi and said he quite enjoyed his stay there when he went to visit last year.

You are of course probably correct when you say that there is a self-serving element at work in which Indian Muslim says what to whom. As far as the inability to find wives in Pakistan is concerned, we Muslims have an unhealthy predilection for marrying our cousins and probably there weren`t any girls of the right age in the families in Pakistan.

As far as the Army selection process is concerned, once you are naturalized AND you have a retired Pakistani Army colonel in your corner, such trivial things as having spent your entire life till quite recently in India become fairly minor matters. Yes, millions of Muslims migrated at Partition, my family is from East Punjab (BTW, E. Punjabis are not considered Muhajirs in Pakistan), but there is a limit as to how many now enemy nationals any nation could be asked to put up with!

As far as the ``problem`` aspect of things is concerned, it is true that some (most MQM types) Karachi Muhajirs do not seem to feel any particular affinity for or loyalty to Pakistan, Altaf Bhai being a prime example of this, but most are as ``good`` a Pakistani as the thaitest Punjabi.

Regards.

harimau:

“I have been accused of patronizing you. I hope you didn`t take it that way.”

….no, i didn’t….



“In your writings, I have found you to be a warm-hearted compassionate person.”

….hmm….you obviously haven’t seen me on a bad hair day….: )…but, thank you…

“I wouldn`t want that compassion replaced by cynicism because of all the horrors that we see around us... that was all I was trying to say.”

…. at the risk of sounding hokey, us eternal optimists aren’t beaten that easily…(no, not even on bad hair days: ))

ATTn: Naqshbandi Sahib.

Could you enlighten me about the position of scholars associated with Barelvi school of thought on this seemingly historical blunder of Koran. ?(please see the translation of the verse 30 Chapter 09 (Surah Tauba) below from three different sources)

Judaic belief doesnot hold anyone whosoever as the Son of God.

That i can say after reading literature from various sources regarding Basic Judaic Beliefs.

Could you please clarify my confusion?

Thanx.

``009.030

YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what

the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They

imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate

the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! ``

thanks for that url ylh--those pakistani girls are very beautiful muslim girls alhamdulillah! :-); i`ve seen most of them before but thanks anyway

i don`t know why you posted them? what are you trying to prove?! * *rolls eyes and shakes head * *

(i`m not a taliban as i keep telling you!)

Asif: Did u miss my post? I suggest u at least come up with some kinda response. Im not about to be ignored by anyone.

Reply Roohi #: 467

“Typical Sydney sider !!”

Alhamdolillah, yes. Aap Bris Vegas ke log ko hamare baare men kya patha?

“Ofcourse there are other cities - lovely Melbourne where I found my feet after leaving Nai Dilli - whats that meat pie if you`re not eating it watching Collingwood slug it out with the Essendon Bombers at the MCG - and shall pass that Hahn for a XXXX or VB any day !!”

Bananas se Mexico ko?

But ok ok, so long as you don’t insult the palate with Fosters…I admit that my abiding memory of Melbourne is lining up outside The Mansion (in St Kilda’s) on Christmas Eve and FREEZING, although I was wearing jacket shacket, etc. In the middle of the Southern Summer….yeh koi climate bhi hui? Ask Subrotoda…

And IF I were (God forbid) in Melbourne I wouldn’t even think of polluting my body with a meat pie (poi’n’sauce?) containing kya maalum? Squid Risotto in Prahran, thank you very much. AND unlimited ricotta canoli. But that’s just me…

“Anyway shout yourself a drink for me and try and think Aussie Rules even if it means rooting for those Swans!!”

You leave our wildlife alone please. Swans Rule!

(Say what you will of Rugby League – and I must draw your attention to the Queensland Cowboys and Ian Roberts, surely there is some bhav in all that – at least nobody is NSW gets christened in footy colours.)

Cheers

Zafar

Reply Fuzair # 469

“…I am just curious as to whether you have any relatives in Pakistan or not. Some, quite a few Upites I know (knew) in Karachi in the 1980s would either send to India (Lucknow and Kanpur, that I know of for sure) for brides for their sons and I knew of at least three grooms who went to India to get married and then brought their wives back to Pakistan.”

Fuzair Mian – yes, I have (had) relatives in Pakistan, but emphatically deny being from UP (we’re Memons, originally from Kutch). Getting spouses from uss paar is not unknown, but also not all that common in India. Speaking of us, there are not that many Memons around, so if a family wants their child to make a sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh) marriage, they tended to look all over for a “suitable boy/girl” – including East Africa, Pakistan, you name it. Not quite sure what to make UP’ites from either side of the border being unable to find a spouse in their respective countries – what does it say about the individual???? But this is a digression…

“Indians are also commissioned into the Pakistan Army. My father almost had a fit when he read the ACR of a new offier posted to his command when he realized that the person in question had done his Matriculation from New Delhi! Under the Divided Families Act, this officer`s uncle, a retired Colonel, had arranged it so that his nephew came to Pakistan, did his FSc and joined PMA. My father grilled this officer and found out that the younger brother was also a cadet at PMA and this officer knew of at least half a dozen other ``Indians`` who were commissioned in the Pakistan Army! Keep in mind that these were officers who were commissioned in the 1980s and now would be Lt. Cols or so.”

Ha! Very funny – two of my grandaunts (including the infamous Jubbi Sobhani) were Pakistani Army Doctors based in Karachi. They went to Pakistan at the time of Partition (or soon after Partition, from the UK) however, not in the fifties or sixties.

Re: movement to Pakistan – until 1971, there was an on-going movement to Pakistan of a small number of educated Indian Muslims who felt that they would face some discrimination at home. (A college professor we knew in Delhi told us that when a student would come to him for advice on this he told them to finish their studies in India as an Indian degree would make them more competetive – don’t know if this was true or just self aggrandisement on his part.) After 1971 this came to a very definite end, largely because Pakistan essentially stopped allowing Indian Muslims to migrate (unless as spouses).

“According to this man, biased though he may be, many Indian Muslims felt absolutely no loyalty to India and, back then at least, tried to get to Pakistan as fast as they could. Obviously you don`t fall in this category but how many, if at all, do you know that might?”

Who pays the piper calls the tune – mathlab, Indian Muslims who move to Pakistan know what Pakistanis want to hear and believe about Indian Muslim loyalties, and understand that their social acceptance/professional advancement is facilitated by telling people what they want to hear. Similarly Indian Muslims who remained in India know what other Indians want to hear and believe. This is not to say that nobody has any deeply felt loyalties, or lack thereof, but it’s hard to definitely evaluate which proportion feels which way given the situation/location on the subcontinent in which opinions are given. Perhaps asking Indian Muslims settled in a third country would give you the most accurate answer, although again you would get a self selecting subgroup which is perhaps not representative of the whole.

Re: lack of loyalty to India/identification with Pakistan, I have never heard Indian Muslims saying that in India, but given that they knew our family’s views on that, they might just have been discrete in front of us? Also – which side your bread is buttered on is a strong influence on where loyalties are given/withheld. If someone grows up knowing they have a meal ticket waiting for them in another country, their focus is going to be there, no, and their world view is going to develop to justify that.

“My father was concerned that people who up till a few years ago had been Indian citizens living, working and studying in India were coming across the border and effortlessly slipping into the Pakistani Army and becoming officers just because they have a family connection in Pakistan.”

How does the Pakistani Army select its officers? Surely there is some sort of test/evaluation rather than just connections with existing Army Officers? Meaning, just any Indian Muslim couldn’t rock up and join as an officer, surely.

“The security risks of this are obvious. However, while I personally do not know of any Pakistani officers spying for India, RAW would have to be composed of complete idiots if they do not make use of the fact that these officers have very close family in India.”

In that case Pakistan should be 100% safe from spying from India. Be of good cheer. Hamare haan ke log spy karthe tho abh thak tho zaroor pakade jaathe.

“Actually, this is a very common problem with many Upite/Muhajir families in Pakistan.”

Extremely interesting choice of words! Problem for whom? Aur vaisai I hope you aren’t casting aspersions on the good faith of the Great White Hope, aka President Saheb.

“For example, General Rahimuddin, former Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff under Zia, Corp Commander, Provincial Governor, and all around scum bag, was the nephew of Zakir Hussain, one of your former presidents. Thats why I was curious if Zafar had any relatives in Pakistan.”

Heyyyyyyyy….I can see where this is going. I hope you aren’t trying to pin responsibility for a scumbag on me…I deny it all. Prove it.

Regards

Zafar

PS Interesting thought: LK Advani is an ISI operative under deep cover, being controlled by Pakistani custody of his relatives in Sindh. Oh, also Sushma Swaraj (how is that she is speaking Urdu so well, haiN?) Man, your spooks are better than ours. (Sorry Veeresh Unkil.)