Whose Iqbal — Ours or Theirs?

re: ali # 72

``evolved from an Indian nationalist to a pan-Islamist``

evolved? :)

Re: Tahmed321 and the Red Light example

There is a problem with the analogy that you laid out. Jumping a red light can kill an innocent. But jumping a barrier of a belief system will not. Sure, my belief system may upset you to no end, but it is entirely within your control on how to respond. The fellow killed by someone who jumped a light stood no chance.

RE: Reply #: 70 hamidm

Please revisit my reply #38

And that goes for all followers of George Carlin
too....

Ras

Has someone noticed how our Qadiani friend has avioded a simple question: ``What do Qadianis think of muslims who do not believe in the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?`` Hint: Choose from kafirs/infidels/heretics/misguided.

Also notice that he took offence when someone pointed to Mirza`s death in the latrine, but he himself doesnt mind making fun of Muslims` belief that Jesus is alive and has ascended to heaven. So much for the civil discourse.

Technically, Iqbal is perhaps the best Urdu poet of the previous century along with Faiz. Politically, Iqbal evolved from an Indian nationalist to a pan-Islamist and Pakistanis should therefore feel happy if Indian muslims want share his legacy.

Sattar2

Asad,

You have presented the information of meaning(s) of ``Seal..`` before - Why do you need someone else to accept this? - whether one accepts it or not does not effect your faith or belief does it? Sunni are Muslims, Shia are Muslims, Druz are also recognized as Muslim - Some do not agree that Sunnis are Muslim, some do not believe Shia are Muslim - Just so long as the STATE does not interfere in matters of Dogma, we can look for a measure of civility. It is not anybody except the faithful`s business, whether Miza Ahmed is or is not a messenger of God, in either case, the Pakistani STATE is not a sect and may not express a preference over one sect over any other.

tahmed

.... it really doesn`t matter what you and i think .. what matters is that in Fatwa No. 1615 The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa headed by comprising Shaykh Abdul Azeez Ibn Abdullaah Ibn Baaz decalred that :

``By the concensus of the scholars, the Qaadiyaaniyyah are a kaafir sect which assumes the name of Islaam to cover up its real evil aims and goals, and its corrupted `aqeedah, of which the most dangerous aspect being the calling to and belief in the prophethood of their founder; In addition to changing the text of the Noble Qur.aan, and denying jihaad and making takfeer (render someone a kaafir) of the Muslims and displaying loyalty to the enemies of the Muslims``

.... that in itself wouldn`t be bad if the government of Pakistan had not ruled these people outside the fold of Islam and relegated them to a second class status ..... what is even worse is the fact that the vast majority of pakistanis, educated and otherwise, have bought into this crap and ostracize these poor people as if they were lepers ...... the legal and social status of an ahmedi in pakistan is worse than that of a nigger in mississpi in the fifties ..... shame on us for contribting to this crime by hiding behind the silliness of religious dogma ..........

P.S. it is hard to believe but i don`t know anyone, not one single person, in pakistan - mit and harvard educated professionals, generals, chowkidars, tv actors, khansamas, pia pilots, drunkards, housewives, bureaucrats, pimps and technocrats - who is willing to say that ahmedis are not kafirs or that the state has no business in defining them as kafirs ...... some will come up with some mealymouthed crap like, `` some of my friends are ahmedis``; others blatantly call them infidels, enemies of islam and wajib-ul-katal on any given jumaa .......no one wants to be seen as questioning the divine red light ``law`` .........

Chowkies: The world as lost one of it`s most luminesent minds - Allah Bless him and have mercy of him. From Business Recorder:

`` German philosopher Gadamer dies aged 102

BERLIN (March 16 2002) : The German philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer, considered one of the most important thinkers of the 20th century, has died at the age of 102.

The death of Gadamer, who studied under the controversial German philosopher Martin Heidegger, was announced on Thursday.

Gadamer was best known for his work on hermeneutics, or the philosophy of understanding. His work was a major influence on scholars working on the interpretation of texts.

His best-known book, ``Truth and Method``, first published in 1960, criticised the prevailing view that using scientific methods was the only route to establishing truth.

Gadamer also wrote literary criticism, including important essays on works by Romanian-born German poet Paul Celan.

Gadamer`s work has been described as an inquiry into the ways in which humans interpret their own activities. He believed that all science was affected by the motivations and beliefs of those who actually did the investigation.

``Hans-Georg Gadamer marked German philosophy and European spiritual life as no other thinker did in the second half of the 20th century,`` said Culture Minister Julian Nida-Ruemelin.

Gadamer was born on February 11, 1900 in the German city of Marburg and was the son of a chemistry professor. He began his studies in Breslau, now Wroclaw in Poland, in 1918 and then moved back to Marburg, where he earned his first doctorate at the early age of 22.

He then went on to study under Heidegger and served as his assistant for a few years. Heidegger, who was greatly criticised for his initial sympathy for the Nazis, was widely regarded as one of the central figures of the existentialist philosophy and was concerned about issues such as the meaning of being.

Gadamer taught philosophy at Marburg and in 1939 began to teach in Leipzig, where he later served as rector in 1946-47.

In 1949, Gadamer was appointed to the philosophy chair at Germany`s prestigious Heidelberg University, where he remained until his retirement in 1968.

Gadamer then spent many semesters abroad, lecturing in universities in the United States, Canada and Italy. He was also honoured with the German Order of Merit.

German President Johannes Rau, who knew Gadamer personally, said: ``Hans-Georg Gadamer`s deep humanity was moulded through the dialogue with thinkers from his time and from the past; this deeply touched everyone who encountered him.``

On Gadamer`s 100th birthday, personalities from all over the world, including the German philosopher Juergen Habermas, the French philosopher Paul Ricoeur and Rau travelled to Heidelberg to congratulate him personally.-Reuters``

sattar2 #62 Before going further into the inssue of what is meant by seal (i.e. ``finito`` vs. ``approved``), I will say this: your response has been dignified and reasoned, and as such you have demonstrated at least one thing - your behavior is that of a gentleman and the ideal for what a true muslim must achieve. On issues of faith, I think ultimately everything is a trivial issue except one: do you treat your fellow humans as you would have them treat you, and do you have respect for learning. Issues like khatm-i-nabuwat, interest rate, shia-sunni, and so on are what I call ``mullah issues``, not religious issues in the finest sense of the world. I dont consider any man who calls himself a muslim to be anything but a muslim, and I dont consider any man who calls himself to be some other relgion to be lesser before the eyes of God than any muslim.

Having put things in perspective (I hope), my response on finito vs. approval issue is this: this is a question of belief, and I have chosen it to mean the former and you have chosen it to mean the latter. I can live with that, and you have my best wishes.

hamidm #65 My post may have sounded hard on ahmedis, but if you read it carefully you will see I am being hard only on one very narrow specific point, namely use of the term ``seal``. And on one very broad point, namely that of hero-worship (in any form, secular heroworship of ataturk or jinnah, or ``religious`` heroworship of pirs, fakirs, prophets).

I am glad you leapt to the defense of ahmedis because they certainly have been shamefully treated in Pakistan (I have argued with an embassy friend for removal of that stupid and disgraceful ``I am a muslim not an ahmedi...`` clause in the passport application but seems like no one wishes to stir up the hornet`s nest, or should i say mullah`s nest).

Anyway, I am with you 100% in what you say.

tahmed #57

... jumping red lights

....are you suggesting that by believing in another prophet the ahmedis are breaking the law and then claiming that the law is incorrect ... it is confusing - who made the law? what is the purpose of this law? does breaking this law cause floods or road accidents or other terrible things? why is everyone upset that someone is breaking the ``law``? what is the law designed to protect - the prophet ? why does the prophet need protection? what will happen if the ahmedis say azan and offer namaz and call their temples masjids? what benefits do these people get by posing as muslims? are they exempted from jizzia? does anyone pay jizzia in pakistan? if an ahmedi dies does he go to the same heaven as regular muslims? if a muslim believes in ghulam ahmed, is he an ahmedi? if an ahmedi believes in muhammad, is he a muslim? are shias kafirs? are they worse than ahmedis? if shias are not kafirs and recognize ahmedis as muslims then are sunnis kafirs? if an ahmedi has more than one wife, is it illegal because he is not a muslim? who is worse - a hindoo or an ahmedi? is it okay to enter into a alliance with the hindoos against the ahmedis? .............i could go on for ever......... these are all perplexing questions

.........wouldn`t it be simpler if we stopped defining people by their religion (other than the horrible hindoos, of course).... i saw ahmedis being beaten to a pulp and their books, rooms and motorcycles set on fire ..... the sad part is that i never knew that these boys were ahmedis - i always thought they were religious geeks who prayed five times a day, studied from dawn till dusk and were kind enough to share their notes with guys who couldn`t get up in the morning ......now i find out from you that they were breaking ``the law`` and therefore deserved to be punished ... one of them died

Re Tahmed (#57, 59):

Prophets raised before Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) do not pose a dilemma for you. They were raised by Allah, they received revelations from the Almighty, and they guided the people. Why is it that newer prophets will pose a problem? Pointing towards other Muslims who look up to pirs, sheikhs etc. is not an answer. Such practices have existed in the past, but Allah continued to raise prophets nevertheless. A simple response will be appreciated. Please reread this paragraph if needed.

On the meaning of “seal” …



You claim that a “seal” means “finito”. However, a seal is also used to authenticate a document. Correct or not? You’ll find multiple meanings of “seal” if you consult a dictionary. Your singular definition of “seal” is incomplete to begin with. You are seeking a shortcut to prove what you already believe.

I ask again … what is your basis of rejecting the other meaning of “seal”. Be mindful “seal” has meanings other than “finito”. I have provided supporting arguments from the Quran. Now it is your turn to substantiate your views. A concrete response will be appreciated.

You have posted on “Chowk” from Quran in the past … on several occasions. I have drawn your attention to Quran on this issue a few times, but you have been reluctant to consult it. Now, you are free to believe whatever you choose to, but when you negate someone, you have the intellectual responsibility to put forward rational, reasonable arguments … and not merely your opinion.

On “legitimizing’ my views ….

At times I have I stepped forward on Chowk to explain my views on Islam, and argued if Ahmadi/Islamic beliefs are abused or misrepresented. This time around, some comments against Ahmadiyyat were posted, followed by some earnest inquiries. I am trying to show the truth about Ahmadi-Islam … and to repel lies about my community. This you call attempts at “legitimize” my beliefs. Please be clear on this… I am not seeking approval from others. Allah is my witness. I am explaining things, so that others may benefit from it … and the truth may come out. You are not displaying a balanced sense of judgment here.

If what I am discussing here is inconsequential, why could not resist the urge to negate me? Put yourself in my position, and think it over, before criticizing me.

Asad

SameerJB #49: ``Let`s talk about Iqbal. His best couplet must be: HaiN log wohi jahaN maiN acche --Aatey haiN jo kaam dosroN key.``

I always thought the original verse was:

Hain log wohi jahan main acche......jo pehentay hain chotay chotay say kachhay

KORAKARAM #58

I hope your displeasure is with all misscarriage of justice in all democratic secular haven of law & order society ,where MISTAKES also happen..

Or only Miss-carriage of law enforcement

Certainly a tool for the adversary to thrash the saudies .But havent any secular democratic killed its citizen by MISTAKES of its police or Judiciary system...In u.s.a alone due to MISTAKE of police work 30% of death row inmates are innocent,

In India police stand by to save there skin while villages burn

Im not condoning but lets hear equal outrage against THE DEMOCRATIC country who kill no less ppl. due to miss carriage of its LAW & justice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sattar2 #52 one more thing - you write ``I should be the one to state what I believe. Don’t you agree?`` Yes, I agree. What I am questioning is not your right to believe whatever you like, but your right to change the meaning of words to suit your needs. A ``seal`` is a ``seal``. That means ``Khatam Shood``, No More Prophets. Finito. The End. It does not mean Little Prophets are still Welcome. It is not PIA where someone can argue that ``Koi seat khali nahiN to koi baat nahiN. Chotta Bacha meri gode maiN baith jai ga.`` Sorry if this sounds harsh because you are a good man, but what can I say other than what I have already said: your faith is no different thase those who call you a non-muslim. And you have every right to practise what you believe and to expect others to respect your faith. Just dont expect others (or at least me) to accept that the word ``seal`` really means ``seal with a small opening for use by junior prophets``. If you interpret is as such without expecting me to accept that interpretations, that is fine with me.

sattar2 #52 My main point was that in having the faith that a man who came after the Prophet Muhammed received revelations from God, the Ahmedis are de facto no different than the masses of people in Pakistan who look towards other men as if they receive revelations from God or have some other association with God that ``ordinary`` men do not have. The only difference is that you are ``asking`` for your beliefs to be formally recognized as part of the Quran message, whereas the others do not try to legitimize their beliefs. To take another example: In Lahore, e.g., everyone jumps the ``red light`` without claiming this is consistent with the law. A few of us fools simply wish that people would try to understand that a ``red light`` is there for a reason. You, as an Ahmedi, are claiming that the ``red light`` means ``go`` and therefore you are OK in jumping the light. That is what gets you into trouble with other red light jumpers.

As for the ``God-like`` status: here you are at par with 90% of Pakistanis. ylh worships other men (ataturk, jinnah, bhutto, etc. depending on the time of day for the prayers); naqshbandi worships other men (and gives them mile long names like Maula and Hazrat and what not; other worship dead men. But every one of these individuals will be very upset when confronted with this fact as you are. A true muslim does not seek guidance from other men - he seeks guidance from the reasons God created man (to seeek knowledge and further science) and he acts in accordance with some basic principles of forgiveness, and love, and fairness, and rational thinking. Anything less than that means you are making a god out of an ordinary - as ordinary as your domestic servant or the airport porter, and if you think this is being disrespectful of prophets and pirs, that is fine - man.