Whose Iqbal — Ours or Theirs?

It is amazing, I find myself in total agreement with Akash. Akash is absolutely right.

Talking of the Ahmadi contribution to the Islamic Ummah And who can forget Sir Zafrullah Khan, Quaid e Azam`s Right Hand man, a deserving stalwart of the Pakistan Movement, Pakistan`s first foreign minister, and perhaps the only Muslim President of the International Court of Justice....

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tahmedsaab:

“Second time actually. First was when I got married (this is my practice for an upcoming anniversary).”

… congratulations to you and mrs. a….tell her she’s a very lucky woman….:)

tahmedsaab:

“Second time actually. First was when I got married (this is my practice for an upcoming anniversary).”

… congratulations to you and mrs. a….tell her she’s a very lucky woman….:)

re: anNy

{{do the ahmedis believe that the holy prophet is the last prophet? yes or no? im little confused as this is what i though- that u didnt think the prophet was the last..iv made good friends with a few ahmadis over the last week and out of them 3 say that they believe that the prophet is the last prophet but that they dont believe that there will be a mahdi as the shias believe(and some sunnis also i think) the mahdi, they say has already arrived i.e. mirzasaab..can u clear things out pls?}}

to add to the confusion, many believed Hulk Hogan (or Hollywood Hulk Hogan) is the last prophet...but then the Rock showed up and said HE was the People`s Champion...they settled it at Wrestlemania X8 and it turned out The Rock IS the last prophet...but a re-match and cheating by the referee is likely, so we can`t be sure just yet....

ooof, this is so confusing...why can`t they settle this once and for all, so we can all run out and buy the correct posters, action figures, and cereals of the right prophet...

Dear Sattar

I have been following your posts for quite sometime. I fully support your religion as it emphasizes on ``conquering hearts of people`` and not jihad. Perhaps you are also right on another count that Muslims at this time are at their lowest point. And the reason for this is too inflexibility in belief, a closed mind on religion, growing intolerence for divergent views, and a certain frustation at not being compatible with modern society. I, being from the science stream, admire Ahmedis amongst the Muslims most for their progressive outlook. You guys should be proud that you gave the whole Islamic world, perhaps the only(or one of very few) Nobel Laureate in Physics. And you guys have produced more intellectuals than any other sect of modern Islam, on a per capita basis.

Tahmed Sahib (#117):

As a general comment … I mainly responded to peoples comments about Ahmadi-Islam or Mirza Sahib. I did not discuss Ahmadi-Muslim beliefs much because … no one ever asked! Most of the “Chowk” discussions inadvertently centered around the issue of prophethood, and hence my own emphasis on this topic.

On numerous occasions I have pointed out that Ahmadi-Islam is nothing but pure Islam … i.e. Islam without all the dogma that has seeped into it over time. One may wonder, if Ahmadi-Muslims preach Islam only, what’s the point? Why did another prophet have to come … to merely tell us to go back to Quran and Allah?

The answer lies in the age-old principle that … religious teachings decline overtime. Belief in One God slowly gives in to polytheism. Scripture gets corrupted and interpreted in dubious ways … mainly for various political reasons. Spirit of love and compassion for all gives in to mutual rivalry and hatred, between individuals, religions, ethnic backgrounds, economic classes, and more. Message of God gets disfigured beyond recognition.

In same form or another, this happened to Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and all other religions of the world. They all started with the pristine message of Oneness of God, and love and compassion for all, but their teachings got modified, and the message of God got erased from people’s hearts.

When decline sets in, Allah raises prophets to warn people, to remind them to go back to the pristine teachings of Allah, to worship Him only, and to care for others from the bottom of their hearts. Jesus, for example, was one such prophet. Quran mentions numerous other prophets, and according to a hadith, Allah has raised over a hundred thousand prophets to guide the mankind since the days of Prophet Adam.

In the case of Islam, the twisted concept of Jihad, sectarian violence, fatwas of kuffr, visits to the graves of pirs/fakirs, belief in prophets who performed “miracles”, social ills and absurd customs, corruption in the societies, and much more, indicate that Islam is perhaps at its lowest point ever. Muslims of the world are anxiously waiting for a two-thousand year old prophet to descend from the sky, and to convert the world to Islam. They have forgotten that hearts are conquered not over the blade of a sword, but with warmth and genuine love for others. This is what Quran teaches us, but we have mostly forgotten this.

This is where “Ahmadi” Islam comes in. We believe that Allah has raised a prophet once again, to warn people and to remind them to go back to the pristine teachings of Islam. This prophet is Mirza Sahib of Qadian. He is also the Promised Messiah prophesied by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the divinely guided Mujadid of the 14th century (Islamic Calendar).

Now, you probably disagree with the concepts of continued prophethood, Promised Messiah, emphasis on the prophecy of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), the concept of Mujadid, and more. I accept your disagreements, and understand that religion cannot be forced onto anyone. It is one’s own prerogative. We can debate issue after issue, and keep going in circles, as we recently experienced. All we can do is to make an earnest effort, ask Allah for guidance, and leave things as they are. If something does not make sense… it just doesn’t make sense. If you have further inquiries, feel free to ask. I’ll make an effort to explain as best as I can.

On another note, I once posted Ahmadi-Muslim views on the issue of crucifixion of Jesus Christ, his survival from the Cross, and the events that subsequently transpired. This is one important issue for Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the world. I attempted to explain this issue from historical and religious perspective, and tried to clear some of the common misunderstandings. If you are interested in this subject, you may find that post helpful. I’ll try to find the link when time permits.

Regards

tahmed #321

Anniversary Mubarak :-) Good for you, at least you remmember !

Tahmed Sahib (#117):

As a general comment … I mainly responded to peoples comments about Ahmadi-Islam or Mirza Sahib. I did not discuss Ahmadi-Muslim beliefs much because … no one ever asked! Most of the “Chowk” discussions inadvertently centered around the issue of prophethood, and hence my own emphasis on this topic, as I attempted to provide answers as best as I could.

On numerous occasions I have pointed out that Ahmadi-Islam is nothing but pure Islam … i.e. Islam without all the dogma that has seeped into it over time. One may wonder, if Ahmadi-Muslims preach Islam only, what’s the point? Why did another prophet have to come … to merely tell us to go back to Quran and Allah?

The answer lies in the age-old principle that … religious teachings decline overtime. Belief in One God slowly gives in to polytheism. Scripture gets corrupted and interpreted in dubious ways … mainly for various political reasons. Spirit of love and compassion for all gives in to mutual rivalry and hatred, between individuals, religions, ethnic backgrounds, economic classes, and more. Message of God gets disfigured beyond recognition.

In same form or another, this happened to Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and all other religions of the world. They all started with the pristine message of Oneness of God, and love and compassion for all, but their teachings got modified, and the message of God got erased from people’s hearts.

When decline sets in, Allah raises prophets to warn people, to remind them that they need to go back to the pristine teachings of Allah, to worship Him only, and to care for others from the bottom of our hearts. Jesus, for example, was one such prophet. Quran mentions numerous other prophets, and according to a hadith, Allah has raised over a hundred thousand prophets to guide the mankind since the days of Prophet Adam.

In the case of Islam, the twisted concept of Jihad, sectarian violence, fatwas of kuffr, visits to the graves of pirs/fakirs, belief in prophets who performed “miracles”, social ills and absurd customs, corruption in the societies, and much more, indicate that Islam is perhaps at its lowest point ever. Muslims of the world are anxiously waiting for a two-thousand year old prophet to descend from the sky, and to convert the world to Islam. They have forgotten that hearts are conquered not on the blades of sword, but with warmth and genuine love for others. This is what Quran teaches us, but we have mostly forgotten this.

This is where “Ahmadi” Islam comes in. We believe that Allah has raised a prophet once again, to warn people and to remind them to go back to the pristine teachings of Islam. This prophet is Mirza Sahib of Qadian. He is also the Promised Messiah prophesied by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the divinely guided Mujadid of the 14th century (Islamic Calendar).

Now, you probably disagree with the concepts of continued prophethood, Promised Messiah, emphasis on the prophecy of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), the concept of Mujadid, and more. I accept your disagreements, and understand that religion cannot be forced onto anyone. It is one’s own prerogative. We can debate issue after issue, and keep going in circles, as we recently experienced. All we can do is to make an earnest effort, ask Allah for guidance, and leave things as they are. If something does not make sense… it just doesn’t make sense. However, if you have further inquiries, feel free to ask. I’ll make an effort to explain as best as I can.

On another note, I once posted Ahmadi-Muslim views on the issue of crucifixion of Jesus Christ, his survival from the Cross, and the events that subsequently transpired. This is one important issue for Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the world. I attempted to explain this issue from historical and religious perspective, and tried to clear some of the common misunderstandings. If you are interested in this subject, you may find that post helpful. I’ll try to find the link when time permits.

Regards

Some may find this link useful:

http://www.ahmadiyya.org/iqbal/ch6.htm

Urstruly #118 you write: ``Dear Mr. Ahmed, guide and philosopher to myself and other lost souls on chowk: First time in your life, you have asked the right question.`` Second time actually. First was when I got married (this is my practice for an upcoming anniversary).

Mr. Butthead#321

First time in your life, you have asked the right question.

sattar2 #114 You write ``I have asked repeatedly, and you have continuously side-stepped this question … does your acceptance of Jesus as a prophet amount to hero-worship? Does Quranic injunction of accepting prophets amount to hero-worship?``

The answer to both is no. It should be clear to anyone what one means by hero-worship vs. prophet, and that the two need not be the same. However, I hope you now have the anwser to your specific question.

As should be amply clear by now, what I am objecting to is this fascination with the messenger rather than with the message, with prominent men rather than with values and principles, with political personalities rather than with the constitution. I am objecting to this because these are all symptoms of the same weakness in character and are very real problems underlying Pakistani society.

You have obviously interpreted my point on hero-worship as being something directed towards how Ahmedis look up to Mirza Ahmed. The fact is that I honestly wasnt trying to single out Ahmedis in my earlier post, and I included sunnis and shias in the same criticism. HOWEVER, now that I think about it, I must say I dont have a clue on the message delivered by Mirza Ahmed and how it differs from that delivered by the prophet Muhammed. The main focus of your discussion has been on providing a basis for establishing Mirza Ahmed as a prophet. You have, in the 10-15 posts I have read from you on chowk over the past several months, NOT ONCE referred to any difference in concept or philosophy or values that Ahmedis are enjoined to subscribe to and to which other muslims are not. I can only conclude, NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT, that your focus too is on personalities and not on concept. Please prove me wrong.

Sattar,

Please explain 2 things;

1) Why is it that Ahmadi Muslim Women insist on dressing like a Ninja in a Burqah, when they are highly respected professionals usually?

2) Why is there `Male Domination` in Ahmadi Islam? Why can`t a Woman be a Caliph?

I know that this disease is not uncommon to the rest of the fiqahs, but your sect has shown the qualities of modernity and pragmatism otherwise.

Personally, I think had I not disagreed with the theological reverence to the Agha Khan to the point of worship, I would have been an Ismaili.

In any event, the hope of Islam lies in two of its off shoots : Ahmadiya and Ismailiyah in my opinion.

Re Tahmed Sahib (#107):

On hero-worship …

I completely agree when you say … “the focus of Quran is on Allah …”. It is worth noting that it is Allah Himself Who asked us to believe in His prophets. Quran has more references to Allah … than to anything else … agreed. These “other” things, although with lesser emphasis, are important nevertheless … like respecting one’s parents, helping those in need, accepting prophets, and more … all of which are required by Allah Almighty. You cannot rightfully suggest that by believing in prophets people are giving in to hero-worship. I cannot make this any simpler.

I have asked repeatedly, and you have continuously side-stepped this question … does your acceptance of Jesus as a prophet amount to hero-worship? Does Quranic injunction of accepting prophets amount to hero-worship?

On the issue of “seal” …

I challenged your interpretation … but only after you negated mine. This is fair and reasonable. I then presented my arguments on this issue. Your suggestion that Sattar has presented nothing convincing other than a “forced” definition of seal … is not supported by our discourse so far, mainly for two reasons:

1. I provided a definition of “seal” by reviewing the context of the verse in question. You have not made a single comment on the context of this verse, while insisting that Sattar is incorrect.

2. I further referred to a Quranic verse which clearly hints at coming of more prophets … “O Children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from amongst you …” (Surah-e-Aaraf, verse 35). You have not commented on this verse either… not at all.

Your continued silence on the two above-mentioned arguments speaks louder than your opinions. Now, it is fine for you to believe whatever you choose to; it is none of my business. But when you openly negate me, I have full right to grill you on your views, of course respectfully and with dignity.

If you insist, we can end this discussion here. However, if you decide to negate my views another time, you should present objective reasons … and not merely your vague opinions. Yes, I agree we have been largely respectful towards each other. At times things got heated up a bit, but we managed to keep our egos in control.

Best regards

Anny (#99):

I am very sorry about that “horribly rude man” … really … everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. For what it is worth, I wish I could provide some consolation in this regard.

Regarding your inquiries … Ahmadi-Muslims believe that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the last law-bearing prophet, and the ultimate prophet ever. Following prophets can only be non-Law-bearing prophets, and Allah will raise them as people go astray, to bring them back to the message of Quran and Islam.

The friends you mentioned seem to belong to the “Lahori Jamaat” … an off-shoot of Ahmadi-Muslims. I explained some of this in reply #40 on this board. I also mentioned a web-site where more information may be found on “Ahmadi” interpretation of Islam.

On another board I posted some Quranic explanation of the issue of prophethood. Here is the link to that board. Reply #150 is the one I am referring to …

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=djphukan_mar0502&n=40#reply150

Good luck and best regards.