Whose Iqbal — Ours or Theirs?

Tahmad321

Quoting selectively, to make a point has always been forte of hypocrites, zalemoon, Zindeeques, liars, and enemy of the Prophet (pbuh). Do not follow the path of these transgressors. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was sent to us not just as a ``warner`` but also as a:

- As a witness (to testify about Allah) [1]
- The bearer of good news[1]
- As a warner[1]
- An inviter to God[1]
- And a guiding beacon. [1]
- He(pbuh) was sent out of mercy from Him towards the whole world.{2}
- He (pbuh) was blessed with a great gift, the gift of great moral character. [3]

So now it is easier to see why he is a role model to follow, why he is a hero worth dying for, and why he is an example to follow. Because Allah has told us so. We have to follow his (tradition) to be on the right path and not get lost on the wrong path that he came to ``warn`` us about. We follow him because he is the beacon of light, without him we will be lost. He is the way to God. His character is the role model that should define our lives. This is hero worship, alright, and every Muslim around the globe is proud of that, except some hypocrites, zalemoon and liars.

Ref # 1

[al-Ahzab 33:44] Their greeting the day they meet Him is, ``Peace,`` and He has prepared for them a generous recompense.
[al-Ahzab 33:45] O prophet, we have sent you as a witness, a bearer of good news, as well as a warner.
[al-Ahzab 33:46] Inviting to GOD, in accordance with His will, and a guiding beacon.
[al-Ahzab 33:47] Deliver good news to the believers, that they have deserved from GOD a great blessing.
[al-Ahzab 33:48] Do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites, disregard their insults, and put your trust in GOD; GOD suffices as an advocate.

Ref # 2:

[al-Anbiya` 21:105] We have decreed in the Psalms, as well as in other scriptures, that the earth shall be inherited by My righteous worshipers.
[al-Anbiya` 21:106] This is a proclamation for people who are worshipers.
[al-Anbiya` 21:107] We have sent you out of mercy from us towards the whole world.
[al-Anbiya` 21:108] Proclaim, ``I have been given divine inspiration that your god is one god. Will you then submit?``
[al-Anbiya` 21:109] If they turn away, then say, ``I have warned you sufficiently, and I have no idea how soon or late (the retribution) will come to you.

Ref # 3

[al-Qalam 68:2] You have attained a great blessing from your Lord; you are not crazy.
[al-Qalam 68:3] You have attained a recompense that is well deserved.
[al-Qalam 68:4] You are blessed with a great moral character.
[al-Qalam 68:5] You will see, and they will see.
[al-Qalam 68:6] Which of you are condemned.

sattar2 #68 You write ``...comments on hero-worship will be much appreciated.``, and here are my two-taka views on this:

1. The focus of the Quran is clearly on Allah, his creation, man`s responsibilities and so on. Prophet Muhammed is mentioned in terms of circumscribing his role to that of a ``warner``. The focus of many muslims - sunnis, shias, ahmedis - is on man, not on Allah. It is this shift in focus that amounts to hero-worship. Only yesterday I saw on TV a man singing praises of Muhammed as the ``Lord of the Worlds`` and to my mind this was a travesty of Islam. Shias add other men to Muhammed and ahmedis add another man. But, as I have repeatedly said, regardless of whether you are sunni or shia or ahmedi, the moment you start talking personalities and forget the message, you have gone off course.

2. In secular terms, we have hero-worship too. Men in power are venerated, poor men are rubbed into the dust.

3. What remains to be answered is this: Why are we unable to focus on concepts (like Allah) or principles (fairness, forgiveness, peace and so on) when the Quran emphasizes that, and find it easy to slip into worshipping (in de facto terms) ordinary men? The answer is simple: small minds focus on other people, better minds focus on principles.

As I have said, you have a right to be considered a muslim if that is what you think you are (since these are matters where even the Prophet is told in the Quran are not for him to decide), you do not have a right to claim that your interpretation of the Quran cannot be questioned. If we can agree on this, we can end this discussion.

For others...

Beware, there is a senile old man in this room who is so desperately without any life, that he spends hours after hours splitting hair and trying to accuse others of things that they can`t even imagine, and then lecturing them on what a true muslim should or shouldn`t do.

To this senile old man, who lectures day and night on the usefulness of satyagraha and the ideals of non violence and the one great soul who taught these great ideals, everything else is haraam. Admiring, defending, or dissecting a political figure is haraam. You see it is perfectly Islamic to include Gandhian non violence and religious spiritual bs in the daily sermons, but as soon as someone mentions a founding father`s 11th August speech, or mentions the method of a certain father of the turks in countering the mullahs, that is HERO WORSHIP and thus major shirk. Pathetic! Thats what he is ... a pathetic old fool.

PS Sattar Don`t bother with tahmed. To him, nothing is kosher except salivating over the imagined ideals of dead mahatmas. Everything else is `hero worship`. If nothing else, have him recall the tale of how his father walked with the mahatma in an ashram, who being super human walked at a great pace.

I personally see Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as a great Muslim reformer who had some interesting ideas much in line with Darashikoh and others before him.. though I don`t agree with his claim of nabuwat. You have every right to respect the man as your hero, nabi or whatever... so don`t be deterred by these taunts of hero worship.

Sattar,

As a sign of solidarity with your community and protest against the illegal and bigoted 2nd Amendment Act, I will refuse to sign the statement declaring the Ahmadis to be Non-Muslims.

I strongly urge all other Pakistanis to do the same!

Sincerely

YLH

I found this Gem....

Shah,

``Little that i know as ,average joe ``MUSLIM`` The qalimah ``La Illaha Il lalla Mohommedur Rasool Allah``

Which ALL muslim of any kind Bohra to Shia to Sunni say with or without addition of the part About Ali (razi allahu annah ) If Ahmedie do not subscribe to Mohommed being the last Prophet they are the one that are UNLIKE all different `types` of MUSLIMS

And the little that I know about Ahmadis, they Do read the Same Kalima which is translated into `There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger`. I am sorry but I don`t see any mention of the last Prophet in that Kalima. Having known Ahmadis, they are practising orthodox Sunni Muslims...

Please make some sense, atleast sometimes.

Sigalph,

``I sure wish that Sir Zafarullah Khan was around; we would have to see how the Saudis stopped a foreign minister of Pakistan from going to the kabaa.``

Sir Zafrullah Khan was a phenomenal personality. Amazingly he was hailed by all Arabs as a hero for his role in furthering the Palestinian cause.

It would definitely be interesting, since even Prince later Shah Faisal had on occasion prayed in the Ahmadiya Mosque in London. How ironic though that Saudi Arabia under his government put the maximum pressure

While Sir Zafrullah Khan was alive, whenever my father visited London, Sir Zafrullah would invite him over for dinner. Zafrullah Khan lived to be 98, 55 of those years were spent as a diabetic. Such was his self discipline that he lived on a diet all through out his life never wavering from it.

I still remember the day of Sir Zafrullah`s funeral which was held in Lahore Cantt. My father had come to school to pick me up, sending in a note to my teacher to let me go early. I was very young, 4 or 5 maybe... and I had never seen so many people.

Both Zafrullah Khan, and Abdus Salaam, Pakistan`s Ahmadi heroes, were charismatic personalities who were mistreated by us collectively for which we should be thoroughly ashamed.

Tahmed Sahib,

In order to keep this discussion on course, a few clarifications are in order.

You misunderstood my comment about “hero-worship”. I am not debating whether your comment of hero-worship is directed towards Ahmadis “only” or Ahmadis “as well” … rather, I am arguing against your comment directed towards Ahmadis “at all”.

If your acceptance of Jesus as a prophet does not imply hero-worship, why does my acceptance of Mirza Sahib as a prophet imply hero-worship? I have asked this of you several times. But you have not responded, while continuously insisting that Ahmadis (and others) are involved with hero-worship.

You are using two different yard-sticks to measure your beliefs and my beliefs. Why this contradiction?

Making such harsh claims about others’ beliefs, without explaining yourself, is not the mark of a gentleman. I am sure you will reconsider or explain your position on this issue.

As for the “narrowness” of the definition of “seal”, I stand corrected, and regret this oversight on my part. I will post more on this issue later, but for now your comments on hero-worship will be much appreciated.

Asad

re bin baz fatwa and ahmadis

More than anything else it is about money as far as the subcontinent is concerned. Bin Baz is another scoundrel joh al-saud ke tukdo pe pala hai. His `scholarship` betrays his inheritance of the wisdom of his jahiliyya ancestors. But Muslims in S. Asia and elsewhere take his rubbish as god-send thanks to the ill-gotten wealth of his hypocritical masters.

Frankly his (and Jamaat`s) disgust with Ahmadis is akin to fear. Ahmadis have been some of the most intelligentand educated folks in our region who, if they put their energies in that direction, could intellectually shake the foundations of the Wahabi perversions that peddle as Islam these days.

I sure wish that Sir Zafarullah Khan was around; we would have to see how the Saudis stopped a foreign minister of Pakistan from going to the kabaa.

sattar2 #79 you write ``You accuse Ahmadi-Muslims of having a narrow definition of “seal”.`` and proceed to take me to task on this``. You are wrong since very clearly this is NOT what I wrote. Please read carefully what I wrote in post #66, which I am cutting and pasting for your convenience: ``I am being hard only on one very narrow specific point, namely USE of the term ``seal``. As should be clear to anyone, I consider the ISSUE OF THE SEAL to be ``one very narrow specific point``. Please think about it, since this is OUTSIDE THE BOX in which this issue is often discussed by both sunnis and ahmedis, and that is probably why you did not interpret what I wrote correctly.

You continue: ``Furthermore, you once again incorrectly accuse Ahmadis of hero-worship.`` Again, you are wrong. To continue my cut and paste from #66 this is what I wrote: ``And on one very broad point, namely that of hero-worship (in any form, secular heroworship of ataturk or jinnah, or ``religious`` heroworship of pirs, fakirs, prophets). `` As should be clear, this does not apply to ahmedis only.

It is impossible to have a discussion if you dont read what I have carefully written, and to interpret what I have written to match you preconceived notions rather than to what I have actually written. I should not have to cut and paste my posts (as I have had to do here) and spend my time trying to explain what you should have provided me the courtesy of reading properly the first time.

shammi #76 You raise an important point - i.e. by jumping the red light on issues of law you can get people killed, but not so by jumping the red light on issues of faith. You are right in this INSOFAR AS in jumping the red light on issues of faith you do not at the same time jump the red light on issues of law. Since I am sure sattar2 will not jump the red light on issues of law even as he jumps the red light (as per my interpretation) on an issue of faith, I am merely stating our different interpretations and wishing him a good day. I am not calling him a bad person or a man with a ``lower level`` of faith or anything like that. Differences on issues of religion can and must always remain mutually respectful as I think is true in case of the discussion on this board.

You may also wish to refer to my post #67 below where I put the same thing differently: ``Issues like khatm-i-nabuwat, interest rate, shia-sunni, and so on are what I call ``mullah issues``, not religious issues in the finest sense of the world. I dont consider any man who calls himself a muslim to be anything but a muslim, and I dont consider any man who calls himself to be some other relgion to be lesser before the eyes of God than any muslim.``

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hamidm #70 I am surprised you have not met anyone in Pakistan who thinks Ahmedis are kafirs. Most people I know dont discuss such weighty issues, and when they do the position is what I stated below: if someone considers himself a muslim, then he/she is a muslim. End of business. It is these damned mullahs and corrupt rulers like Bhutto and Zia who are responsible for the evil actions against Ahmedis. I know Ahmedis who live securely in Islamabad and freely mingle with the neigbors and professional colleagues without anyone giving two hoots about their religion. Indeed shias in Karachi are the target of the mullahs venom nowadays more than anyone else (and the shia mullahs act vice versa as well).

I dont want to sound like I am trying to ignore the problem, but I think it is important to understand where the problem lies - with the mullahs, not with ordinary citizens. And instead of ordinary citizens who are themselves victims of bad rulers and hijackers of Islam, you should be directing your criticism towards the thugs.

Re hobbyty (#71):

You are right in that I do not need validation of others (that would be “seal of approval”, Tahmed Sahib [grin]) to authenticate my beliefs. Allah is my Witness and I am answerable to Him only.

This discussion ensued when one of the interactors inquired about ``Ahmadi`` Islam. This was followed by comments from other interactors … some negative and some positive. Then I jumped in … and the rest is history.

You correctly state that the State has no business labeling people with their faiths. Mullahs in Pakistan have done a disservice to Islam and people of Pakistan by persecuting Ahmadi-Muslims. It is this militancy that is the biggest enemy of Islam.

Re Ali1 (#73):

Pardon me, but I did not think that I was expected to respond to this question. Anyway, Quran asks us to believe in all prophets of Allah. According to my understanding, Mirza Sahib is one such prophet.

Now, it is up to each person to believe or reject Mirza Sahib. I cannot declare anyone a non-Muslim on this account. Although I do think that reviling and abusing Mirza Sahib (or anyone for that matter) is “kuffr” (ignorance, for lack of a better word) since such abuse is based upon hateful lies and propaganda.

On the issue of civil discourse …

I was offended by the comment about Mirza Sahib’s death … because it a blatant, hateful lie, fabricated by the mullahs. These mullahs have shamelessly conspired to single out Ahmadis for propaganda and persecution.

As a Muslim, I also have utmost respect for Prophet Issa-ibne-Marriam and I believe him to have died physically, just like any other human being. If this offends you, be mindful that your belief that Issa-ibne-Marriam exists even today in flesh-and-blood, is equally offensive to me. It turns a Prophet I believe in into a fantasy-icon, defies rationality and reasoning, violates principles laid out in Quran, and turns my religion into a fairy tale.

My comments about Issa-ibne-Marriam are to show to these mullahs that the “Islam” they go around imposing on others, does not make any sense … to them either. Case in point is our own Jamaati mullah Urstruly. Whenever the issue of Issa-ibne-Marriam comes up … he stops quoting scholars, tucks his tail between his legs, and stops bothering me with his ramblings. Now, if the mullahs are going to declare me a non-Muslim, propagate lies about my community, and persecute Ahmadi-Muslims, they better be prepared for some harsh criticism of their understanding of humanity and Islam, and their “scholarly” works on Quran, ahadith, and more.

Asad

Tahmed Sahib,

In your post to hamidm (#66), you are making contradictory statements. You accuse Ahmadi-Muslims of having a narrow definition of “seal”. What about your own definition? Why is my definition “narrow”, and yours is not?

If you were being objective, you’d acknowledge that Ahmadi definition is just as valid. Check a dictionary if you do not believe me. In addition, I have provided arguments to support my views, whereas you have merely expressed your views … am I am the one with a “narrow” definition?

Furthermore, you once again incorrectly accuse Ahmadis of hero-worship. I’ll ask yet another time … what right do you have to accuse me of worshipping Mirza Sahib, whereas I do not accuse you of worshipping Jesus, or any other prophet you believe in?

Repeatedly making baseless and incorrect statements is a manifestation of your own biases … that you project on others, while touting yourself as a rationalist.

Moving on …

In your post addressed to me (#67), you once again contradict your earlier statements. Perhaps it is my insistence that you support your opinions with concrete arguments … but all of a sudden you are back to “decency and civility” being important and “khattam-e-Nabuwat” being trivial. If this was so, why did you negate me all along, while insisting that your definition of “seal” is the correct one and mine is not?

It has taken 4-or-so rounds of posts to get you to admit that “seal” has more than one meaning. A fourth-grader with an open mind and a pocket dictionary would have understood more easily. Having come so far, I cannot just yet accept your offer to settle this argument with the “decency and civility” mantra. Decency and civility were never the point of discussion … why bring them up now?

You openly negated me, did not provide any arguments to support your position, and kept evading my simple, precise questions. You are intellectually responsible to follow through if you openly negate someone’s views. Merely expressing your opinions and then resorting to “decency and civility” mantra is not acceptable Sahib.

Asad

Starbuck:

Sure thing baby. Thats what you`re here for... to make it equal.