An Equal Reaction

Shammi #302:

I agree with your recommendations. For Vajpayee to personally apologize to the victims may not be necessary but I would applaud him if he did it.

The biggest test of Indian democracy, or at least Gujarati democracy, is going to be : ``in the next assembly elections, will rioters get punished or will they be rewarded for these riots?`` - I hate to admit it but I cannot tell which way the wind is blowing.

That I do not know the answer to the question is either an indictment of my judgement or an indictment of the state of Gujarat. I hope it is the former.

RE: Reply #: 301 ali1

``TNT is THE reality and Bangledesh is an affirmation rather than a negation of this reality. To me, TNT simply means that Indian Muslims and Hindus are two distinct and separate nations, and the life, property and honor of Indian muslims can never be safe in a dispensation where Hindus are in a majority or control the state apparatus.``

Pakistanis killed 1.5 million Muslims (a conservative estimate, actual toll may have been much higher) in 1971 in the space of 9 months. Every year, thousands of Muslims are slaughtered in Pakistan in the name of religion.

Given these statistics and despite all that has happened, Muslims are actually safer in India than in the land of the pure. It would take India hundreds of years to catch up with the killings perpetrated by Pakistan so far.

Indians must hang their heads in shame at what has happened in Gujarat because we haven`t been able to put these backward, retrogressive Hindutva louts in their place so that we don`t become another Pakistan.

Re: Ali1

``...TNT is THE reality and Bangledesh is an affirmation rather than a negation of this reality…``

So you are completely ignoring the fact that when East and West Pakistan could not get along it questioned the very basis of religion-based political structures (be it Hindu or Islamic)?

``… What do you mean abandon?…``

I mean leaving them to their fate to fend off the horrible hindoos on their own after having chosen to cut all political ties with them, and in full apriori knowledge of the fact that a COMPLETE population exchange was neither possible nor practical. And this after having increased the threat to them from some of the horrible hindoos who view the Muslims who stayed back in India as the ones to blame for Partition. Musharraf`s rebuke to the mullahs in July was along these lines when he said that, `when you think about hoisting flags on Delhi`s Red Fort, think about what you are doing to the Muslims of India`

``… Smarter muslims took the opportunity and moved to Pakistan…``

Did it ever occur to you that some may have wanted to move, but lacked the financial means? Or others may have decided against moving in the first place? Or that there is no political will in Pakistan to absorb India`s 150 million Muslims (heck what is the problem in absorbing the few thousand Bangladeshi Biharis)? Did it also occur to you that using the loaded term `smarter` is highly patronizing? And then to call them `bhuna gosht` is about the most insulting term that you could use to describe victims?

``… And what do you mean by ``recent events``?...``

I meant the violence in Gujarat in Feb./March this year. The last communal riots that took place in India were in `92 (If I am unaware of any riots in the intervening years, they were probably too small in comparison to the recent violence). The interim years have been quiet. More Muslims were killed in Shia-Sunni violence in Pakistan in those years than Muslims at the hands of Hindus in India. What the Afghans have done to each other boggles the mind (with not insignificant support from your government).

``… the murder, rape and pillage of Indian muslims in the guise of riots is the bedrock of Indian polity…``

If that is the case then something is seriously amiss about a polity that should have otherwise been able to put Hitler`s Third Reich to shame in butchery, or that has handed political defeats to the sympathizers of the riots?

``… Indian Muslims have known and suffered this beast for 50 years…``

They have also suffered the deprivation of having salt rubbed in their wounds by being addressed as `bhuna gosht` by inconsiderate individuals.

``… Internet and other mass media has exposed the true face of the Hindu beast…``

Thank God for that.

ali1 #301
When Pakis treat Indian Muslims` murders as the reaffirmation of Pakistani nationhood and Indians consider Indian Muslim murders as a diminishing of Indian nationhood, it makes it even more obvious the TNT-minded have absolutely no stake in the safety of Indian Muslims, quite the opposite.

Truth:

Here is what Vajpayee should do if he is interested in healing the wounds in Gujarat:

a) Visit the camps of the victims and their families and ask for their forgiveness

b) Provide for their rehabilitation from the PM`s Relief Fund, and negate the Gujarat government`s skewed distribution of compensation

c) Establish special courts to try the guilty

d) Arrest and prosecute the leaders of the VHP/Bajrang Dal

e) Sack the Chief Minister of Gujarat

f) Constitute a commission of inquiry chaired by a sitting or retired judge of the Supreme Court

g) Address the nation on the steps that he has taken (as indicated above)

Until he does the above, he will continue to lose credibility with individuals like me.

Reply # 239 shammi

[``Shouldn`t we rename TNT -- the THREE nation theory taking into account the realities today?``]

TNT is THE reality and Bangledesh is an affirmation rather than a negation of this reality. To me, TNT simply means that Indian Muslims and Hindus are two distinct and separate nations, and the life, property and honor of Indian muslims can never be safe in a dispensation where Hindus are in a majority or control the state apparatus.

[``More seriously, Ayaz Amir is tempted into making that assertion given recent events, however should he not give greater thought to how TNT abandoned all of India`s Muslims to their fate?``]

What do you mean abandon? Pakistani borders were officially open to all Indian Muslims till 1951 and migration continued till 1965. Smarter muslims took the opportunity and moved to Pakistan. Those who did not believe in TNT stayed behind..... and are now reduced to bhuna gosht in Ahmedabad (for example).... not an intelligent decision, don`t you think?

And what do you mean by ``recent events``? The murder, rape and pillage of Indian muslims in the guise of riots is the bedrock of Indian polity. The only difference b/w these riots and the previous ones is that Internet and other mass media has exposed the true face of the Hindu beast. Indian Muslims have known and suffered this beast for 50 years.

Dear tahmed Bhai Saheb.

Please forgive me If I called pakistan backward --- please don`t be angry at my ignorance about your modern Pakistan.

You are sooo right. I have to rely for my BIAS against your enlightened country on the bits and pieces provided -- NOT by unpatriotic Pakistanis like hamidm – but patriotic Pakistani like yourself – talking about modern Pakistan’s industrial export you wrote:

‘’Do not think, you unpatriotic man, that we export only towels and basmati rice and ganderis (and what`s wrong with ganderis??).

We also export complex machinery that has the whole world puzzled, confused and wide-eyed with wonder. Research labs all over the world are working round the clock to unlock it`s workings. I am talking about that greatest of paki exports -the unskilled worker, the boatless admiral, the wingless air marshal...need I go on? And we can produce `em faster than any other country in the world. And look at the real goodies that we dont export: the clueless karachi (our should I say keystone) cop, the city dwelling feudal landlord, the lawmaking general, the capitalist politician. Yeah!!!’’.(tahmed on another board)

Now what an ignorant foreigner like me is supposed to conclude from such “self hating” posts of yours..

I can see -- that at least YOUR manners are better than your daddy’s servant’s – and I can see from your “shaaistaa” post that your ancestors never had to earn an honest living from anything as NOBLE as “ploughing the fields” – no wonder poor romair cries about the freeloader feudals – in every post.

Truth #276 Aint that the truth!! Your post should be required reading for every high school graduate in India and in Pakistan too.

Urstruly #281

As always, your performance is at a high-level. You come from a country that has decimated its Hindu and Buddhist minority to near 0. You come from a country called the ``land of the pure`` which was founded on the principle of ethnic cleansing. You come from a country in which there are no functioning hindu or buddhist temples in any major city. You come from a country which has spent 100`s of millions of dollars exporting violence and extremism to its immediate neighnbors.

But, of course, true hatred resides only in your countries` neighbors. In your alice-in-wonderland logic all of this makes sense. I would say that your outputs (I hate to characterize them by any other term) should be considered hilarious, if only their consequences were not so tragic.

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nasah

[``They only go nuts and banana when they encounter a decent, progressive, secular Hindu``]

Secular Hindu is an oxymoron. I have my doubts about decent too, and progressive is a label that has been arbitrarily applied in India from the monkey god to Atal Behari Bagpipe. The only Indian muslims who use these words are the ones whose sons/daughters have ended up marrying hindus; others know better, or find out once its too late (Ehsan Jafri for example).

Re: Truth

``…What the riots were really bad for were the lives of the victims and the sense of security of 150 million Indian citizens. All the rest is secondary….``

Absolutely correct. All Indians need to hang their heads in shame. I will go even further than your assertion. If India cannot guarantee the security and well-being of its 150 million Muslims, then India will not be able to guarantee its own security either. That is a lesson that we should have learned from our history. Stability was achieved only when all sections of society felt safe and secure. This simple logic evades some of our brightest minds.

Re: Urstruly

``… It (Gujarat riots) is the result of campaign of hate by all and sundry Hindus against Muslims…``

Urstruly, if you are claiming that ALL and SUNDRY Hindus engaged in a hate campaign against Muslims, then you are wrong. Plain wrong. However, if you had replaced `all and sundry` with `a significant minority to India`s shame` you would have been right. More importantly, the `significant minority` is enough to inflict a lot of damage, and to cause trouble. The rest of your post had the potential to be quite meaningful, but unfortunately it lost its credibility due to your inclination to use superlatives and in generalizing behavior of some individuals to a group, in PRECISELY the same way that some Hindus ascribe behavior of SOME Muslims to ALL of them. The kernels of truth in your post were overwhelmed by your overreaction (e.g. referring to Zafar Al-Talib as an `aadha Hindu`). You say, `I hate only those who hurl hate`. You quote the Rev. Martin Luther King, but remember what his savior said `hate the sin, not the sinner`. By doing what you do, you make your hard to be taken seriously. Why am I saying all this to you? Because I want you to become a more effective interactor.

BTW, are turnips called `gongloo` in Pakistan? Not `shalgam`?

Urstruly:

As stevie wonder would say, have i told you lately how much i dislike you?

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...So much so that even after the Liaqat-Nehru pact, no Hindu-Sikh woman caught in the holocaust of the Partition chose to return to India,...``

WHAT are you talking (I would have said blabbering had most of your other posts not made a lot of sense) about? You have a propensity of generalizing anecdotal accounts. One of my aunts was in a refugee camp in Pakistan for over a year before repatriation. She is now approaching 80, and the poison she imbibed in `47 in a failed suicide attempt kept giving her lifelong health problems. I do not have the heart to ask her is she was raped, and I will not. She was widowed (her husband having been killed in Mirpur), but she was accepted by her surviving family and had three infant daughters, who are now as well integrated into the family as anyone else.

Urstruly

``How many times do I have to tell you that I am not Ghazni ki aulaad, I am Ram`s aulaad, being Soorya Vanshi rajput and all. ``

So from ``SoorajBansi`` you have become Soorya-vanshi. Actually you are a ``Soovar- vanshi`` as your writings clearly show. Dont even try to pronounce ``Soorya-vanshi``, stick to your ``sooraj-bansi`` or ``soovar-bansi`` thing. Your tongue will fall of if you do that.

i am arain can anyone please tell me what exactly that is is it of hindu origin? my father claims he is ``bagdadi`` that his family come from iraq i know that just sounds to weird even if its true.......