An Equal Reaction

re: Truth # 276

Bajpai`s statements about India`s ``image`` have disgusted me. He should be out there leading from the front, trying to solve problems, rather than worrying about what others think. Who the hell cares about others` opinions at this moment when people are dying daily?

Pretty pathetic of Bajpai. And I say that as an admirer of him; he has just failed miserably in dealing with these murderous riots.

The moral abyss you described has bothered me too. There is simply no way I will advocate going back to old-time religion. But leaving old-time religion behind places a great of responsibility at the individual level. As a nation, we have not produced sufficiant number of individuals capable of shouldering that burden.

Can our constitution be our new guide? In many ways, it already is. And it works. But as recent events prove beyond a shadow of doubt, constitution itself has failed to elicit the kind of commitment that our society needs from its members in order to achieve its full potential.

How do we create this commitment?

re: Truth # 276

Bajpai`s statements about India`s ``image`` have disgusted me. He should be out there leading from the front, trying to solve problems, rather than worrying about what others think. Who the hell cares about others` opinions at this moment when people are dying daily?

Pretty pathetic of Bajpai. And I say that as an admirer of him; he has just failed miserably in dealing with these murderous riots.

The moral abyss you described has bothered me too. There is simply no way I will advocate going back to old-time religion. But leaving old-time religion behind places a great of responsibility at the individual level. As a nation, we have not produced sufficiant number of individuals capable of shouldering that burden.

Can our constitution be our new guide? In many ways, it already is. And it works. But as recent events prove beyond a shadow of doubt, constitution itself has failed to elicit the kind of commitment that our society needs from its members in order to achieve its full potential.

How do we create this commitment?

#262 ZAT

I`m not going to give you a straight answer.

1) Hindus are tolerant when they are not threatened. So what, you say. Makes for good press during normal times is what.

2) Religions don`t make people good or bad. People are good despite their religious beliefs.

#270 dost-mittar

My understanding is that india unvarnished crtitques present-day efforts (under Joshi) to rewrite indian history. The major complaint of the hindutvavadis has been that ``muslim atrocities`` are soft pedalled. No mention of temple destructions for example. Maybe they want a chapter included on tejo mahalaya, i don`t know. In short, their agenda is to put muslims in their place and the best way to do that is to start with impressionable minds.

You mentioned Shah Bano as the turning point. I don`t think so. In fact it would be odd for a people that barely register a protest (almost all the protest comes from women`s groups) -when thousands of women are killed every year in kerosene-stove accidents- on something as esoteric as a muslim woman not getting alimony. The major reason for hindu paranoia dates (most recently) back to 1981 when hundreds of dalits converted to islam in Meenakshipuram, TN. The idea that dalits who had up till now would convert only to buddhism or christianity neither of which posed a threat, might convert en masse to islam and challenge them sent a chill up the collective hindu spine. RSS became politically stronger as a result throughout india and especially in s.india where their presence had been miniscule. I lost many friends and relatives to the RSS disease at that time.

I think Ali1 knows how to pull the hindu chain with his talk of dalit liberation ;)

anNy #237:

I am very sad and ashamed to hear that tragic story - specially since I belong to that city.

Satyavadi

Ali2

You can`t go without making a stupid comment a day can you.

Urstruly #282
``It has been more than once that I have written that he was our prince in shinning armour who came on his white horse to save our souls. We wouldn`t be here on the soil of Hindustan if it werent for him. May God bless his soul.``

I don`t think he managed to `saved your soul` though he tried his best to beat down the infidels. You Pakis are quite as uncouth as you claim to be before your `souls were saved`. Take a look at your own posts sometime.

``The only way to look at Ghaznavi should be that he is history. He is done. There won`t be another Ghaznavi as there wont be another Somnath. Sometimes history does not repeat itself. Especially if we don`t let it.``

There will be no Somnath because you cannot afford it, not because the Ghazni paradigm is not celebrated in Pakistan. Interest-free drug or oil money just cannot pay for an Army though it can be stretched buy jihadis. When you have to pay interest on multilateral white-money loans, its more worthwhile to open schools and polytechnics and have working political and law-and-order systems, which are lot more difficult things to do than be aspiring conquerors.

Kaali Mai # 280

Defensiveness? I have never been defensive of Ghaznavi. It has been more than once that I have written that he was our prince in shinning armour who came on his white horse to save our souls. We wouldn`t be here on the soil of Hindustan if it werent for him. May God bless his soul.

Forgive my uncouthness, but the problem that how we look at Ghaznavi is not because of his actions, the problem is with our perspective. If we keep on looking at him with the perspective of a loser nation or a winner nation, there will always be a problem. It will always be that way. The only way to look at Ghaznavi should be that he is history. He is done. There won`t be another Ghaznavi as there wont be another Somnath. Sometimes history does not repeat itself. Especially if we don`t let it.

GONGLOO`AN TOON MITTI LAHNA


dost-mittar # 269

I hope you are well familiar with this Punjabi proverb, which literally translates into ``Wiping the turnips``. Those who are not familiar with this proverb and Punjabi language, this proverb is spoken when someone, a lazy bum sweet talks his way into a hardworking group at the time of reward. Explanation: A turnip is a vegetable that grows underground, and it takes real effort and sweat to pull one out. This proverb originated in turnip fields , where when all the turnips are pulled out, by a group of peasants and the guy who spent all this time smoking huqqa under the tree comes in, wipe the dust off the heap of the turnips, wipes sweat off his forehead and tries to just blend in with the hardworking peasants so that he is not considered a lazy bum-this proverb describes the whole thing in one phrase. An equivalent Urdu proverb is ``Unglee kata kar shaheedoN main naam likhwana``.

So Mr. Dost you are just wiping the dust off the turnips. You know very well that Gujrat was a result and not a cause. It is the result of campaign of hate by all and sundry Hindus against Muslims (of all around the world), Islam, and Pakistan. This hate was spread by your TV, your radios, your newspapers, your rediffs, your politicians, your seculars, and you………You turned every Muslim into a Taliban. I never understood what has an Arab ever done to a Hindu or India, yet you people bad mouth them and their religion. Admit it that Hindu is prejudiced to the core of his bones against Islam. Admit it that his hate has crossed all the limits of rationality.

Dost! There are tens of potential Gujrats waiting to happen if you people do not give up on this rhetoric of hate. Stop hating your neighbor. Stop hating their religion. Because when you hate their religion you hate the religion of your minority. Today, aadha Hindu tells me that I hate Secularism and secular people. No I don’t hate secularism, secular people or Hindus; I hate only those who hurl hate and try to hide behind secularism or their religion thinking that they will get away with it.

Dost! You have to stop wiping dust off the turnips. You must yell at hate mongers like I have been yelling at them. You have to be tactless, you have to be merciless, you have to be unforgiving. There is no forgiveness for spreading hate.

``The ultimate tragedy is not the brutality of the bad people, but the silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King

PS:
Seems to be a lot of defensiveness here to cover up the lack of Ghazni Memorial Womens Hospital or Ghazni Vidya Peeth Middle school for boys. Though I recommend you check your facts before becoming defensive these institutions may exist.

Urstruly #278, #277
You Pakis just don`t get it do you? Genealogy doesnot count, either in the Indian Army nor in Indian mythology.You are Ghazni ki aulad or Ram ki aulad not by genealogy but by what you do. Entities totally devoid of intellect and judgement are not gods but daityas irrespective of whose aulad they are. Another thing is if you keep invoking a god or goddess, they are liable to make an appearance then you find you have asked for more than you can handle. And yes everyone is subject to karma, which is where Kali comes in occasionally, good for her.

Kaali Mai # 247

How many times do I have to tell you that I am not Ghazni ki aulaad, I am Ram`s aulaad, being Soorya Vanshi rajput and all. I am your god, damnit. Dont invite my wrath by calling me names. Okay. I think, addressing me as Prabhoo would be nice. Ursgod will be happy.

Ursgod

Aadha Hindu # 261

``Charity begins at home, Urstruly, please lead by example if you wish to be convincing.``

There is a differnce between Anti-Semitism and Anti-Nazi-ism. Condemning Nazism and hate is not spreading hate. Kicking some butt of Nazi sympathizers is not hate. So now you know where our resident Kaali maata and you fit in.

nasah #265 ``My criticism of Pakistan is not of the country or the people but -- its hate mongering leaders, its ill disciplined army, its Jhamooriat Shikan Musharraf the Usurper -- its Islamist extremism, its backwardness, its treatment of women, its honor killings -- its neglect of secular public education -- and its lack of interest in alleviating poverty and deprivation of the Muslim masses -- ``

I wonder if you have ever been to Pakistan, mixed with the people, studied it`s politics, history, culture - or whether you think reading posts on chowk and newspaper articles makes you an expert. If the latter is the case, as seems true from the above and your earlier posts, then I think you would make yourself appear a wise man by not passing such idle comments on things where your understanding of Pakistani politics and culture is little more than that of a corner mailbox in the miami or of a lamppost in llilongwe. As my schoolteacher used to say ``little knowledge is a dangerous thing``. As for sniffing about Pakistan`s backwardness, I think despite your living in the advanced west(whose rise from backwardness no doubt your ancestors contributed to while ploughing fields and flying kites in India), you reveal a level of backwardness that puts you behind the domestic servant at my father`s house in Pakistan - he has more decency and better manners than you, and that makes him and millions of poor people in Pakistan more advanced than you and others of your ilk regardless of your bank accounts and fancy passports.

I am getting fed up with Vajpayee saying that the riots were bad for India`s ``image``. Nobody but a vain man cares about image - Vajpayee did not care about ``image`` when he went in for nuclear tests.

What the riots were really bad for were the lives of the victims and the sense of security of 150 million Indian citizens. All the rest is secondary.

The biggest problem facing India right now is a moral vaccuum among large sections of Hindus. In America, the moral code of Christianity has largely been replaced by the moral code of the US Consitution - the average American talks in terms of First Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Miranda rights, Separation of Church & State etc. With the pathetic state of law enforcement in India and a religion that is almost so loose as to be meaningless, many (not all but a significant meaningful minority)Hindus are falling into a moral abyss. This is why we have seen educated people participate in the Gujarat riots and very tardy efforts to prosecute them.

Indian reform must come through the enforcement of the Indian constitution - there is no other moral code that is largely acceptable in India. Every India must understand the basics of India otherwise Indian democracy is a vanity. I would say the average Indian understands ``One man, one vote`` at a grassroots level. But beyond that : ``freedom of religion, speech; innocent till proven guilty; no group guilt`` are not well understood concepts by many Indians. The development of that moral code is the need of the hour.

Zafar Al-Talib

Zafar, no reason to be irate. I leave you to deal with stuff you know best how to deal with. Happy trails.