An Equal Reaction

re: prem

{{My post was not aimed at questioning anybody`s judgement, but to appeal to people to use caution when reading various stories buzzing around. Truths and untruths can be mixed in a rapidly spreading deadly potion. That happens far too often in media, sometimes completely inadvertently, sometimes deliberately. I just want people to be careful. There is enough poison around already.}}

and i was emphasizing that very point. so what`s the meaning of you posting this to me? i too don`t believe the bakwaas going around about what happened on that train. and i particularly take issue with anNy trying to get in blindly suggest otherwise...what`s your beef with that?

you`ve got a bad habit, prem...your intent on that specific point was the same as mine...yet you now worry you may have angered anNy, so to prove your even-handedness, you will fight imaginary battles....

ZAfar Al Talib

#220

Zafar, I was disappointed by your post. What you think as a nationalist should not be confused by the kind of slack some of us cut you here - I don`t know whether you realize this - of course we would all want to understand each other better - sometimes this is not possible, nor should be - recall Ali nor I nor any number of Pakistanis are responsible for the riots. The religio-cultural nationalism that is inderent in Dost post does go to explain some of the events we have witnessed - is you expression on Chowk in some way censored by non-Muslim Indians? You dumped on Ali, but asked Dost`s pardon? presumably Ali`s issue is not as important to ``understanding``? I ask you not to answer me immediately, but give it some thought - and be reminded that most Pakistanis have held their tongues, because of persons like you - you may want to consider how fair is it to make us pay a price for a hostage, who abuses those who wish no harm comes to him and yet we will continue to pay it, even as we know some resent us for it. Yes, I understand about choosing one`s fights and who and how - do you think the same way about Pakistanis? You should. Trust me when I say to you that most Pakistanis will agree that for Muslims in India, choosing either side of the divide is like spitting in the air with one`s head tilted back - the spit will fall on one`s face - but if this means being a hostage, perhaps it is too late for considerations like Spitting in the air.

dost-mittar #174 was in response to ali1 #157 talks of Ghazni. I think dost-mittar meant `subcontinental Muslims` when he said Indian Muslims, obviously Arabs, Syrian Muslims or Kurdish Muslims etc donot have Ghazni figuring quite so strongly in local history (sorry for this intercession but I think ali1 is being studiedly disingenuous ).

Those living for the future who feel a kinship for Ghazni should do something constructive for that town, btw, it and its population have really come upon hard times these days for no fault of their own except being in Afghanistan.

RE: Reply #: 226 Romair

``Stuka #212: India made a huge error in the manner in which it has asked for people on the now most famous list in the world.``

Romair,

The people India has asked for are a danger not only to India but to Pakistan. A guy like Dawood has a lot of politicians and generals in his pocket and is also indulging in a lot of violence in Karachi. It is in Pakistan`s best interests to hand him over. If they had done this with Omar Sheik, it would have saved them the embarrassment of Daniel Pearl`s killing and whatever else will happen in the future.

Of course, you can never accuse Pakistan`s leaders to think more than one step ahead of the game.

re: Romair # 226

My friend, all that noise about India not asking for those people quietly is, for lack of better word, pure BS. Indians know full well what is going on here. Pakistanis know full well what is happening.

Both, IMO, are being silly. But it is surely time to stop talking kindergarten stuff. We have two nuclear powers that can wipe out each other by mistake (they will not do so intentionally). The least hapless men, women, and children on both sides of the border deserve is an end to the frivolous attitude that has prevailed since late 1980s.

re: AAmir # 227

AAmir, you are right. Whatever the so-called ``foreign`` newspapers may say, Indian papers themselves have been full of the most grotesque details of the barbarous behavior of Hindu mobs in Gujrat. Those facts are clear as daylight.

re: anNy # 216

Almost all the gory details in the articles you posted are, to our eternal shame, true. I have absolutely no intention of defending/absolving anyone of these horrendous crimes that Indians - mostly Hindus - have committed. Any Indian who does so (as I see some people on chowk attempting) under the smokescreen of democracy or whatever else is, as far as I am concerned, lower than vermin.

India has not only erred, it has erred on a scale that confounds one`s senses. In the burning fires of Gujrat, little hope is to be found, let alone anything to defend. I do hear that the news media is doing a determined job of covering the tragedy, bringing its unspeakable horrors home to people so they can witness what has been done in their and their religion`s name. I beg of you to take a look at the following long and detailed article to see that people do acknowledge most of what you posted: ``Ethnic Cleansing in Ahmedabad`` (http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020322&fname=sahmat&sid=1).

Naqsbandi`s post upset me for its despicable tone. He seemed almost exultant, drawing some counterfeit, morally sickening, vindication from the still smouldering embers of an enormous tragedy. Certainly, it is our duty to learn what happened. But then to leap from investigating facts to justifying or deriving intellectual satisfaction from such terrible crimes is simply inexcusable.

Events in Gujrat are horrific enough. Nothing worse can be said about a nation than what is reported in the article I mentioned above, ``Ethnic Cleansing in Ahmedabad.`` That is why it is all the MORE necessary to guard against people who use this occasion to add infammatory mirch, further arousing people`s passions. That kind of rumor mongering occurs far too often to be ignored. Just ONE person can set off a geomatrically growing chain, and then within a few days everyone knows some one who knows that the rumor is definitely true. That`s how mobs are whipped into murderous frenzies in shockingly short periods of time. It seems that Mr. Soni, who some people have claimed to be the key source of an inflammatory story they are actively spreading on Internet, totally denies he made any such statements.

``Reliable resources have reported all this information. I will also mention my sources, namely Mr. Anil Soni and Neelam Soni (reporters of Gujarat Samachar newspaper and also member of PTI & ANI). They have worked hard to dig the true facts and they duly deserve words of appraisal for their hard work.``

Now, please read what Outlook writes -

``Soni`s mobile number gave the prefix as 0098 and not 098. Lastly, I was familiar with a First Information Report (FIR) but had never heard of an NC. So, I rang up Anil Soni in Godhra to get more details. That was when I got my first surprise. Soni not only categorically denied having ever filed such a story, but also claimed that the contents of the mail were the exact opposite of what had happened.``

If one considers that Outlook has gone out of its way to cover this extraordinary tragedy, then the veracity of the story being spread through email chains appears to be doubtful. Given that chain email letters have become the most effective medium for spreading false rumors, one ought to be doubly careful.

All this should not even be the subject of debate. At best, it appears to be malicious side-show. The real story is that people have been systematically murdered on a mass scale. That is a bigger crime than I, or any sensible person, would have ever imagined. There is no ignoring it. Whatever Indians do, whatever else may be true or not, they have to confront this evil surging around them. Democracy has little to do with it, anNy. It does NOT diminish our collective shame one tiny bit.

RSaxena # 221

To put the record straight, newsline is also the magazine that published scandalous details of Dawood Ibrahim`s life in Karachi. Therefore, one should not dismiss them offhand; just as one can not dismiss the Guardian.

Also, unlike in the case of the News and the Nation, I have never known the Dawn to publish totally fabricated stories.

My post was not aimed at questioning anybody`s judgement, but to appeal to people to use caution when reading various stories buzzing around. Truths and untruths can be mixed in a rapidly spreading deadly potion. That happens far too often in media, sometimes completely inadvertently, sometimes deliberately. I just want people to be careful. There is enough poison around already.

Stuka #212: India made a huge error in the manner in which it has asked for people on the now most famous list in the world. The list of twenty people is actually a lot of Sikhs (all heads of independent Sikh movements in Punjab). Some Indian Muslims and a couple of Pakistani Muslims.

Had India just asked for these people (at least the Sikhs and Indian Muslims) in a backdoor manner quitely, India would have been more successful (assuming these people are actually in Pakistan).

The other thing India should have done was to distribute evidence against all these people to the international press. India should also have released its information to the international press on why it thinks these people are in Pakistan.

To park a whole Army on the border and then threaten Pakistan to hand over will have the opposite effect. People become extremely stubborn and brave when they are threatened. Even if Pakistan had Advani and India wanted him back to be hanged, Pakistan would not have handed him over. Suppose Pakistan handed an equivalent list to India, and parked its Army on the border, threatening India. Would India hand over anyone to Pakistan?

Now, if India doesn`t attack even if the Pakistanis do not hand over anyone, India will have shot itself in the foot, with its current deployment of forces. If India doesn`t attack, it will eventually have to back off. This will be a moral victory for Pakistan, and will indicate that India has accepted Pakistan`s deterence.

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Reply to anNy #216

anNy, that is SO unfair to Prem. He is the LAST person to deserve this on chowk.

Why is it so hard for us (Hindu or Muslim, or Indian or Pakistani) to accept that people who claim to have the same religion (or nationality)as us can commit horrific crimes, in the name of religion (or nation), and that with malicious intent?

I just don`t understand the logic of people who produce this abduction story as an EXCUSE for burning people alive in a train carriage. It makes me literally ill when I hear otherwise reasonable sounding people saying (or posting) that the deaths in Godhra were even a halfway valid cause for the carnage that followed in Gujarat. As if finding out who threw the first stone exonerates, or even slightly diminishes, any of the sins committed (by either self defined and frankly fraudulent ``side``) since then.

Do you REALLY think Prem meant to excuse what happened post-Godhra by expressing his doubts about the abduction story? Has he EVER even IMPLIED that he is not a full supporter of equal rights and security for Muslims in India? Has he ever shown the slightest disrespect for other people`s religious beliefs? Hasn`t he even been the source for quotes which tell a story similar to the ones you`ve posted? (SO, btw, has Sadna.)

As far as I`m concerned there are only two ``sides`` in this kind of situation - those who behave in an evil manner (ALL the criminals involved in the killings in Gujarat, whatever their religion, IQ or shoe size - for example) and those who behave decently (in which group I`d include Prem and also, Madame, YOU).

These are dreadful times. Be well, and pick your battles. Sorry if I came across heavy.

Zafar

Temporal

This is the first petition of its kind that has been signed by Hindus and Muslims in comparable proportions. First step towards any solution is the realization that there is a problem. The second step is to understand and empathise with the position of the other party and the last step entails resolution of conflict by means of compromise. This is a good beginning.

PS Who has written this petition. He surely has done a good job.

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ali1 & anny

It should be intersting to note that how the so called ``secular & atheist hindus``, i.e. the latent rabid nuts first tried to put the blame of everything that happened in Gujrat on the rabid hindu religious nuts only. And now when the dust is settling and world as usual is looking the other way they are inventing stories to cover up the inhuman crimes of their openly rabid brethren. I have always maintained at chowk that hindu is a bad lot-they are worst of human beings-they are a shame on humanity but peole would not dare accept because their precious little political correctedness gets in the way; People! there is nothing like speaking the truth-be open tell Hindus that they are terrible people.

Another thing that should always be kept in mind is that these manhoos secular hindus are actually the one who had been stoking the fires of hatred for the past three years. They are the one who have been spreading hate agianst our religion (which by the way is the religion of their largest minority as well); they are the one who have been desperately trying to prove that ALL muslims are talibans- So it is this lot of Hindus who taught their unedcated low class hindus why to hate Muslims. Isn`t it now obvious as daylight that it is the educated and secular hindus who led their brethren to the path of destruction. In 1920s speaking against Jews and their religion became fashion; by 30s jews were begining to disenfranchised; by 40s they were being gassed to oblivion. Why is this pattern similar to what is happening in India. Since, 1997 insulting Islam had become a fashion among hindu gentry; then Muslims started being disenfranchised and being murdered ruthlessly with laws like TADA, POTO, and Disturbed Area Act of 1990. The gass chambers and death camps are the next step, and Gujrat is the first step towrads it.

Isn`t it obvious that the secular Hindus are the one who are responsible for ethnic cleansing;, it is their media;, it is their newspapers;, it is their tvs, it is the liberal kanjar lot who guided the religious hindus;, it is the secular hindus who gave knives in the hands of nutcases. It is THEM. It is THEM. And they are among us. Talking the sweet talk to us; hitting us in our backs with their knives-everyday-throwing dust in our eyes, right before our eyes.

re: anNy #216

you have some gall challenging people on the credibility of news reports...you`ve conveniently forgotten that embarassing moment when you defended some dawn story and it was later revealed that dawn had doctored the words?....

Reply Ali1 # 208

“Pakistanis, note this interaction b/w a Hindu and an Indian Muslim, that too a Gujarati. While the blood of his kith `n kin hasn`t dried in Ahmedabad, he is being asked to explain his position on Mahmud Ghaznavi! India is a living proof of the TNT`s validity.... and thank God for Pakistan.”

Cupcake, if you want to be effective in life you have to pick your battles. It’s also good to be realistic about who is against you, and why, and who could be your ally, and why.

I don’t share Dost-Mittar’s issue with Indian Muslim’s identifying with Mahmud Ghaznavi & Co – I doubt we do, to begin with – but the fact is, he DOES have this issue. Now, I have a fair amount of respect for Dost-Mittar, and this means that I am more than willing to deal with his issues, as best I can: because I think he is a fundamentally decent person, and if we understand each other’s views/fears/dis-satisfactions, we have taken a first step to resolving them.

Dismissing someone’s issues because you don’t share them (or even understand them) does not lead to any kind of increased understanding. If I can’t make an effort to understand a different (and yes, in some ways frightening) point of view on an internet site with somebody I think as essentially well intentioned as Dost-Mittar, almost optimum conditions for dealing with different viewpoints and understandings of history, then when can anybody do this? You can either believe that religious conflict is inevitable, and bunker down to deal with it for ever, or you can take steps to overcome it by resolving its intellectual underpinnings.

Now, I don’t know what exactly this identification of Indian Muslims with Mahmud G MEANS to Dost-Mittar. To my mind it seems to imply that Indian Muslims see themselves as foreigners in India – an assumption which seems to justify the position on Indian Muslims that some Hindutvawadis take. That’s how I’ve dealt with it – if he meant something else, and I haven’t dealt with that, he’ll come back (please do D-M) and ask again, in another way. But I’ve demonstrated my willingness to deal with his issues, and hopefully that contributes to his willingness to listen to mine.

(Apologies to Dost-Mittar for using you as a textbook example. Please excuse, as it is in a good cause.)

Pakistanis on chowk MAY well see the Gujarat riots as an opportunity to indulge in rhetoric about horrible hindoos – that seems to be your choice - and there are NO negative consequences to your country from encouraging an (intellectual?) confrontation here rather than interaction and resolution. It would be irresponsible of me to do the same. It is my duty to try and be part of the solution. It’s not my place to tell you what your duty is.

But put yourself in my shoes – what would you do? Or take the example of communal violence in Pakistan. If you were a Pakistani Christian, would you use the Church killings to air all your prejudices about Muslims, or would you try and deal with Muslims of good will (even if you don’t agree with all their viewpoints) to ensure that these killings ceased and didn’t happen again. Or if you were a Shia in Karachi, would you deal with the targeted killings of Shia doctors there (similar in approach to the destruction of Muslim businesses and the call for an economic boycott of Muslims in Gujarat by “anonymous” bill posters, btw) by broadcasting your own prejudices against Sunnis, or by interacting as much as you could with Sunnis of good will to overcome these prejudices? Note: I’m not getting into a “Pakistan has it too” sort of mudslinging contest – this is just an example which I hope makes my position clearer to you.

At their absolute best, the Indian-Pakistani interactions on Chowk follow this pattern. Indians learn how Pakistanis view the world, and their assumptions and obsessions. You learn about how we see the world and our assumptions/obsessions. Some people, of course, prefer to stop up their ears and spend their time flinging mud…but you get out of life what you put into it.

Regards.