An Equal Reaction
Anoop Bhat March 16, 2002
#84 Posted by AAmir on March 19, 2002 1:00:50 am
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#85 Posted by Prem on March 19, 2002 2:56:46 am
re: nasah # 83
For some reason, I had never imagined I would see a day when Hindu thugs will display knives with ``pride.`` We have become as irrational and as dangerously emotional a people as any other. For all practical purposes I have stopped being a Hindu. I fully support your call to ban these basta *ds, and would join in any effort to proactively oppose them. Before they take our country away from us, we have to take power out of their hands.
NOTHING can justify the kind of things they have been doing. They have got to go.
For some reason, I had never imagined I would see a day when Hindu thugs will display knives with ``pride.`` We have become as irrational and as dangerously emotional a people as any other. For all practical purposes I have stopped being a Hindu. I fully support your call to ban these basta *ds, and would join in any effort to proactively oppose them. Before they take our country away from us, we have to take power out of their hands.
NOTHING can justify the kind of things they have been doing. They have got to go.
#86 Posted by hobbyty on March 19, 2002 2:56:46 am
Roohi
``Please ignore to na karain !!! What do you think of the interpretation of History in Pakistan and the impact this is having on relations between the peoples of Pakistan & India ? Surely you must have some opinion?``
I have no reason to ignore your post and I regret that it seemed so; I answered last night but these are becoming available only late today. ``Interpretation of History`` in Pakistan is rather wide, but perhaps we could refine the querry - are there particular themes? Indians seem most interested in TNT(yes, I know I`m assuming but you gave me so much scope, I can`t but muck it up) or is there something else? - And don`t call me shirley - yes, I have many, many opinions. I had read Mr. Hasan piece and while I have not read much of Mr. Hasan`s work to form a more complete impression of him, I didn`t like this piece.
``In this melee the historian of the subcontinent, without being rooted in his fatherland or motherland, turns into a comic figure. Asked to analyse an artificially contrived and divided past, his attempts to discern elements of unity, continuity and coherence invite rebuke and repudiation.``
``artificially contrived``?? Contrived and artificial - is there a ``naturally contrived`` somewhere and what might it mean? And contrived, when recollecting ``facts`` in history, means what?Clearly, readers will recognize the ``objectivity`` Mr. Hasan is bringing to the work - Which ofcourse leads us to ask, if all history is ``facts`` that we choose to recall, is the characterization ``artificially contrived`` meaningful in the context of choosing a history to recall? Divided Past? On the one hand Mr. Hasan acknowledges ``unities`` and in the next sentence challenges their existence. Will denying the existence of divided past(s) invite ``rebuke and repudiation``? Depends on one`s point of view.
``This convergence is not accidental, for Hindu and Muslim nationalists formulate their theories on the strength of separate religious communities plotting their destiny in a sharply defined Muslim or a Hindu universe.`` Another Gem - as opposed to what, ``accidentally`` opaquely defined Muslim or Hindu universe? Can these two groups having ``artificially contrived, divided past(s)`` someday choose to recall a less diametrically opposed set of facts? Or will these groups decide the Muslim and Hindu universe have not be defined sharply enough. While every slight and injury is recalled with righteous sentimentality and indignation, the same cannot be said of facts that allow for the full play of commonalities.
``Their worldview on various other matters, nowadays projected in deciphering the past,
has been largely shaped by much the same assumptions.`` More meaningless tripe, their worlview has as much a ``right`` to decipher the past as even one else`s (in a free and ``open`` society) ``Hence, the secular spokesman becomes their common enemy, and is designated as the intellectual terrorist.`` A tautologous statement, but one which passes muster of those committed to a ``scientific`` view of history - preaching to the converted - Yet more of Mr. Hasan`s ``objectivity`` - something about the way these chiliastic, political ``artists`` use the word ``secular``, I find amusing, as if it was ideology neutral or readers, defenseless and uncritical.
`` let us avoid playing politics with students, and let us also scrupulously refrain from
invoking symbols of discord in order to legitimise our contemporary political concerns``
And what has Mr. Hasan been doing thus far in the article, if not playing politics, what he means is let`s not have students play politics he does not approve of.
Anyway, as far as Pakistani students are concerned, for them, in my opinion, it is important to remember that this is a ``open`` universe and our knowledge provisional, evolving, mutable - That history is not just any one whole, clearly defined, set of Dogma, even if they are required to absorb it as if it were - merely being conscious of this, we can trust them to come to their own conclusions about ``truths`` of history. The versions of Pakistani history taught to students does indeed have a heavy dose of ``ideology of Pakistan`` and yes, it is indoctrination - it is the content that is important, I`m not disturbed by it being thought of as ``indoctrination`` (a value/theory laden term you will agree), but I am concerned about the content of that indoctrination, I want it to creat more awareness of ways of thinking (Method or the ghost of it) and ways which allow the fashioning of tools. In my opinion we can not teach students to think, they do that naturally, we can teach them the foundations of what has thus far enabled us to refine use our thinking to describe or define problems and solutions and above all that they have the ability to change their environments. All education is indoctrination. (I think you will find Kuhn`s ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions and Popper`s ``Logic of Scientific Discovery`` and Gadamer`s ``Truth and Method`` compelling in this regard - in each case an original idea is indeed a rare ``invention`` and is a ``leap`` of imagination and courage - very, very different from what is generally understood to be a scientific ``discovery``)
TNT, Briefly, I think most Pakistanis would agree that they are grateful for the existence of this theory and it`s role in creating Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, in my opinion, will also agree that the possibilities pre-partion and independence, were Undivided British India, TNT and Multiple states, Hindu and Muslim leadership were mutually responsible for ensuring that the option of multiple states never gained mass credibility. Also, most Pakistanis will agree with the notion that significant numbers of Indians, 54 years later, emotionally, have not been able to come to terms with any of these realities - Notice something about the temper of Indians and Pakistanis, I have yet to see a single Pakistani express the tragic nature of their flight from India - Indians on the other hand, who left Pakistan seem unwilling to resist expressing the sentiment that their departure from Pakistan was unlike the depature of Muslims from India. I always find myself wondering what wrong they think they experienced that Muslims, my family among them, in India did not? Anyways, ``Who feels it, knows it``, as the song says - What about Pakistanis and Kashmir, have Pakistanis come to terms with regard to Kashmir? I honestly can`t say, though most would agree on the need for a negotiated settlement.
And this makes me question Mr. Hasan`s piece even more. If I may invite you along to explore a hopeful tangent (my belly is full and my optimism, a function of my blood sugar): seems to me, between Muslims and Hindus, as identities, there was and is a clash of right Vs right. The ``inevitablity`` we see this clash produce is a both a hope and a failure. The hope or success is the awareness of and willingness to assert the right, the failure is that the intellectual foundations upon which such right can be negotiated are immature and obscured in the language of ``liberation``. If the value, Liberty, was the basis for establishing social rules and institutions, where by individuals negotiated freely and from equal conditions, their needs, wants and values (such as the Hindu`s to be Hindu and the Muslims`s to be Muslim) I wonder if we would not have seen or experienced a much different ``inevitablity`` - Social transformations occur after or simultaneously with a change in VALUES. But I fear we can no longer think in terms of Lockean individualism - we cannot escape, even if we did not see our self interest in it, the centrality, the directing role of government, of instituitions of the government, in our lives, Individualism for us, I think will be relevent to our cultural and historical contexts, that gravity dictates an individual realized with the group and alienation outside it or as the japanese say, ``the nail that stands up, gets hammered down`` - Individualism for us will alway will be a high wire balancing act, for which we do not as yet have concensus to undertake, the contradictions a fascinating study in the process of secularization, or rationalization. Perhaps we must accept that there is no road map or how-to manual for negotiating the chasms we must - that we must make it up as we go along; lots of bumps and bruises go with the territory.
``Please ignore to na karain !!! What do you think of the interpretation of History in Pakistan and the impact this is having on relations between the peoples of Pakistan & India ? Surely you must have some opinion?``
I have no reason to ignore your post and I regret that it seemed so; I answered last night but these are becoming available only late today. ``Interpretation of History`` in Pakistan is rather wide, but perhaps we could refine the querry - are there particular themes? Indians seem most interested in TNT(yes, I know I`m assuming but you gave me so much scope, I can`t but muck it up) or is there something else? - And don`t call me shirley - yes, I have many, many opinions. I had read Mr. Hasan piece and while I have not read much of Mr. Hasan`s work to form a more complete impression of him, I didn`t like this piece.
``In this melee the historian of the subcontinent, without being rooted in his fatherland or motherland, turns into a comic figure. Asked to analyse an artificially contrived and divided past, his attempts to discern elements of unity, continuity and coherence invite rebuke and repudiation.``
``artificially contrived``?? Contrived and artificial - is there a ``naturally contrived`` somewhere and what might it mean? And contrived, when recollecting ``facts`` in history, means what?Clearly, readers will recognize the ``objectivity`` Mr. Hasan is bringing to the work - Which ofcourse leads us to ask, if all history is ``facts`` that we choose to recall, is the characterization ``artificially contrived`` meaningful in the context of choosing a history to recall? Divided Past? On the one hand Mr. Hasan acknowledges ``unities`` and in the next sentence challenges their existence. Will denying the existence of divided past(s) invite ``rebuke and repudiation``? Depends on one`s point of view.
``This convergence is not accidental, for Hindu and Muslim nationalists formulate their theories on the strength of separate religious communities plotting their destiny in a sharply defined Muslim or a Hindu universe.`` Another Gem - as opposed to what, ``accidentally`` opaquely defined Muslim or Hindu universe? Can these two groups having ``artificially contrived, divided past(s)`` someday choose to recall a less diametrically opposed set of facts? Or will these groups decide the Muslim and Hindu universe have not be defined sharply enough. While every slight and injury is recalled with righteous sentimentality and indignation, the same cannot be said of facts that allow for the full play of commonalities.
``Their worldview on various other matters, nowadays projected in deciphering the past,
has been largely shaped by much the same assumptions.`` More meaningless tripe, their worlview has as much a ``right`` to decipher the past as even one else`s (in a free and ``open`` society) ``Hence, the secular spokesman becomes their common enemy, and is designated as the intellectual terrorist.`` A tautologous statement, but one which passes muster of those committed to a ``scientific`` view of history - preaching to the converted - Yet more of Mr. Hasan`s ``objectivity`` - something about the way these chiliastic, political ``artists`` use the word ``secular``, I find amusing, as if it was ideology neutral or readers, defenseless and uncritical.
`` let us avoid playing politics with students, and let us also scrupulously refrain from
invoking symbols of discord in order to legitimise our contemporary political concerns``
And what has Mr. Hasan been doing thus far in the article, if not playing politics, what he means is let`s not have students play politics he does not approve of.
Anyway, as far as Pakistani students are concerned, for them, in my opinion, it is important to remember that this is a ``open`` universe and our knowledge provisional, evolving, mutable - That history is not just any one whole, clearly defined, set of Dogma, even if they are required to absorb it as if it were - merely being conscious of this, we can trust them to come to their own conclusions about ``truths`` of history. The versions of Pakistani history taught to students does indeed have a heavy dose of ``ideology of Pakistan`` and yes, it is indoctrination - it is the content that is important, I`m not disturbed by it being thought of as ``indoctrination`` (a value/theory laden term you will agree), but I am concerned about the content of that indoctrination, I want it to creat more awareness of ways of thinking (Method or the ghost of it) and ways which allow the fashioning of tools. In my opinion we can not teach students to think, they do that naturally, we can teach them the foundations of what has thus far enabled us to refine use our thinking to describe or define problems and solutions and above all that they have the ability to change their environments. All education is indoctrination. (I think you will find Kuhn`s ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions and Popper`s ``Logic of Scientific Discovery`` and Gadamer`s ``Truth and Method`` compelling in this regard - in each case an original idea is indeed a rare ``invention`` and is a ``leap`` of imagination and courage - very, very different from what is generally understood to be a scientific ``discovery``)
TNT, Briefly, I think most Pakistanis would agree that they are grateful for the existence of this theory and it`s role in creating Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, in my opinion, will also agree that the possibilities pre-partion and independence, were Undivided British India, TNT and Multiple states, Hindu and Muslim leadership were mutually responsible for ensuring that the option of multiple states never gained mass credibility. Also, most Pakistanis will agree with the notion that significant numbers of Indians, 54 years later, emotionally, have not been able to come to terms with any of these realities - Notice something about the temper of Indians and Pakistanis, I have yet to see a single Pakistani express the tragic nature of their flight from India - Indians on the other hand, who left Pakistan seem unwilling to resist expressing the sentiment that their departure from Pakistan was unlike the depature of Muslims from India. I always find myself wondering what wrong they think they experienced that Muslims, my family among them, in India did not? Anyways, ``Who feels it, knows it``, as the song says - What about Pakistanis and Kashmir, have Pakistanis come to terms with regard to Kashmir? I honestly can`t say, though most would agree on the need for a negotiated settlement.
And this makes me question Mr. Hasan`s piece even more. If I may invite you along to explore a hopeful tangent (my belly is full and my optimism, a function of my blood sugar): seems to me, between Muslims and Hindus, as identities, there was and is a clash of right Vs right. The ``inevitablity`` we see this clash produce is a both a hope and a failure. The hope or success is the awareness of and willingness to assert the right, the failure is that the intellectual foundations upon which such right can be negotiated are immature and obscured in the language of ``liberation``. If the value, Liberty, was the basis for establishing social rules and institutions, where by individuals negotiated freely and from equal conditions, their needs, wants and values (such as the Hindu`s to be Hindu and the Muslims`s to be Muslim) I wonder if we would not have seen or experienced a much different ``inevitablity`` - Social transformations occur after or simultaneously with a change in VALUES. But I fear we can no longer think in terms of Lockean individualism - we cannot escape, even if we did not see our self interest in it, the centrality, the directing role of government, of instituitions of the government, in our lives, Individualism for us, I think will be relevent to our cultural and historical contexts, that gravity dictates an individual realized with the group and alienation outside it or as the japanese say, ``the nail that stands up, gets hammered down`` - Individualism for us will alway will be a high wire balancing act, for which we do not as yet have concensus to undertake, the contradictions a fascinating study in the process of secularization, or rationalization. Perhaps we must accept that there is no road map or how-to manual for negotiating the chasms we must - that we must make it up as we go along; lots of bumps and bruises go with the territory.
#87 Posted by pmishra2 on March 19, 2002 2:56:46 am
Urstruly #82
I have asked a straightforward question in (simple) english and expect a factual answer.
No, I do not have any kind of horrific and
barbaric belief in reciprocal destruction of
cultures and religous institutions. I am merely
trying to characterize the operational realities
of religous life in Pakistan.
I have asked a straightforward question in (simple) english and expect a factual answer.
No, I do not have any kind of horrific and
barbaric belief in reciprocal destruction of
cultures and religous institutions. I am merely
trying to characterize the operational realities
of religous life in Pakistan.
#88 Posted by Urstruly on March 19, 2002 10:45:50 am
pmishra2
``I have asked a straightforward question in (simple) english and expect a factual answer.``
I dont think so my friend. You have not asked a ``straightforward`` question, you have asked a ``loaded`` question. You produce a thesis on ``operational reralities in religious life in Paksitan`` and you want ME to prove (or disprove) your thesis. Sir, it is your thesis, you have to prove it before presenting it-that is how things work in real life.
``I have asked a straightforward question in (simple) english and expect a factual answer.``
I dont think so my friend. You have not asked a ``straightforward`` question, you have asked a ``loaded`` question. You produce a thesis on ``operational reralities in religious life in Paksitan`` and you want ME to prove (or disprove) your thesis. Sir, it is your thesis, you have to prove it before presenting it-that is how things work in real life.
#89 Posted by ZafarA on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Reply Harimau # 59
“There is no clear explanation of how a mob of 2000 armed with cans of kerosene was assembled within 5 minutes in Godhra.”
It was clearly a premeditated crime. What other explanation is even possible?
“But let me ask the kind of question that gets me labelled as a Hindutvavadi: why should we prosecute Bal Thakre when Dawood Ibrahim is living in comfort in Pakistan?”
Is justice relative? DID Godhra justify Ahmedabad?
“Yes, I know the answer: we must do justice whenever and wherever we can. Here is the follow-up question: do you think that Bal Thakre`s followers will buy that?”
No they won’t. But do you think their reasons have anything to do with justice?
“There is no clear explanation of how a mob of 2000 armed with cans of kerosene was assembled within 5 minutes in Godhra.”
It was clearly a premeditated crime. What other explanation is even possible?
“But let me ask the kind of question that gets me labelled as a Hindutvavadi: why should we prosecute Bal Thakre when Dawood Ibrahim is living in comfort in Pakistan?”
Is justice relative? DID Godhra justify Ahmedabad?
“Yes, I know the answer: we must do justice whenever and wherever we can. Here is the follow-up question: do you think that Bal Thakre`s followers will buy that?”
No they won’t. But do you think their reasons have anything to do with justice?
#92 Posted by shankar on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
ylh
#68
{{Perhaps your own countrymen needs your advice more than me}}
JESUS CHRIST!!!
You chose to stoop down to Saxena`s level?!!!
Youre a bigger fool than I thought:)
#68
{{Perhaps your own countrymen needs your advice more than me}}
JESUS CHRIST!!!
You chose to stoop down to Saxena`s level?!!!
Youre a bigger fool than I thought:)
#93 Posted by shammi on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Re: Harimau
``...Hindus start a fund specifically targeted to help the affected Muslims of Ahmedabad with and ask a person resident in Gujarat to disburse the moneys collected?...``
I think that this is a great idea -- we should put our wallets where our mouth is. In the meantime, I am going to contribute to the charity in the Milli Gazette indicated by Aamir
Re: Nasah
Yes, Advani has lost the moral authority to be Home Minister. I think that he knows it too, and that is why he has been keeping a low profile. That he `does not have words` is not good enough anymore to describe his inaction after what happened in Orissa. He can use the recently passed POTO to bring the ringleaders to book. If he lets them off the hook, justice will not have ben served.
``...Hindus start a fund specifically targeted to help the affected Muslims of Ahmedabad with and ask a person resident in Gujarat to disburse the moneys collected?...``
I think that this is a great idea -- we should put our wallets where our mouth is. In the meantime, I am going to contribute to the charity in the Milli Gazette indicated by Aamir
Re: Nasah
Yes, Advani has lost the moral authority to be Home Minister. I think that he knows it too, and that is why he has been keeping a low profile. That he `does not have words` is not good enough anymore to describe his inaction after what happened in Orissa. He can use the recently passed POTO to bring the ringleaders to book. If he lets them off the hook, justice will not have ben served.
#94 Posted by Rdesikan on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Check out a stinging op-ed in today`s print issue of the Wall Street Journal by Shaheen Sehbai entitled ``Don`t be fooled by Musharraf`s nice-guy pose``
It`s not on their opinion journal site though
It`s not on their opinion journal site though
#95 Posted by Truth on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
In addition to the Islamic Relief Committees in Gujarat, you can also send money to the America India Foundation - www.aifoundation.org - they were set-up in response to the Gujarat earthquake and they are involved with development projects in Gujarat. They are not specifically geared up for the riots but I believe they are an organization with their heart in the right place.
Given how disillusioned the rank and file Gujarati Muslim must be, it may be a good idea for Indians, especially Hindus, to direct the aid through Muslim groups.
Given how disillusioned the rank and file Gujarati Muslim must be, it may be a good idea for Indians, especially Hindus, to direct the aid through Muslim groups.
#96 Posted by pmishra2 on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Prem #86
Your response (I am no longer a hindu) is exactly what our ``friends`` in the f%@#king RSS and VHP are looking for. I would suggest that instead outrage at the misappropriation of your heritage, at the vandalization of hindu dharmma by hatemongers is the correct response. You need to look no further than the dialog between Krishna and Arjun to understand your duty to *fight * against our ``evil cousins``.
On the other hand, if you are an atheist, thats a reasonable and completely different position to take...
Your response (I am no longer a hindu) is exactly what our ``friends`` in the f%@#king RSS and VHP are looking for. I would suggest that instead outrage at the misappropriation of your heritage, at the vandalization of hindu dharmma by hatemongers is the correct response. You need to look no further than the dialog between Krishna and Arjun to understand your duty to *fight * against our ``evil cousins``.
On the other hand, if you are an atheist, thats a reasonable and completely different position to take...
#97 Posted by Karakoram on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Urstruly:``The xtremist groups can never ever be crushed with force. If 12 years of Indian adventure in KJashmir is not a lesson then what is? If 55 years of Israeli inhumanity is not a lesson then what is? ``
It has to be crushed by a combination of force, re-education, propaganda, severing their financial support links, and monitoring their ideology centers (certain madrassahs). The fact that these militant groups had the support of the Pakistani govt. meant they had freedom to travel, freedom to recruit, supply of weapons, training, and logistics. When their supplies and support groups are completely cut off and their safe houses are no longer safe, the militants will eventually lose teeth - it will not even take a year. Look at the Taliban.. support to them from Pakistan and their few allies (if they had any others) was stopped and they were crushed in a few months. If support for them does not start again there is little chance they can regroup. People who use violence against innocents to further any cause, do not deserve a political platform and giving them one will set a bad precedent.
``Today, political dissent (islamist and anti-american) in Egypt is crushed by sodomizing dissidents with dogs. Political dissent in Saudi Arabia is crushed using inhuman practices, and 17 of of the 19 hijackers were from ``friendly`` kingdom of Saudia who attacked USA. Then why would the laws of nature be different for Paksitan . ``
Stifling political dissent using force is wrong. We know, we have seen enough of it in Pakistan. Expressing political dissent by using violence and killing innocents is wrong too. And if stopping the violence of political dissenters requires using the police and army to crush them, so be it. But I think you are being too generous by labeing terrorists who conduct violence as `political dissenters`. There is a big difference between the two in my dictionary.
It has to be crushed by a combination of force, re-education, propaganda, severing their financial support links, and monitoring their ideology centers (certain madrassahs). The fact that these militant groups had the support of the Pakistani govt. meant they had freedom to travel, freedom to recruit, supply of weapons, training, and logistics. When their supplies and support groups are completely cut off and their safe houses are no longer safe, the militants will eventually lose teeth - it will not even take a year. Look at the Taliban.. support to them from Pakistan and their few allies (if they had any others) was stopped and they were crushed in a few months. If support for them does not start again there is little chance they can regroup. People who use violence against innocents to further any cause, do not deserve a political platform and giving them one will set a bad precedent.
``Today, political dissent (islamist and anti-american) in Egypt is crushed by sodomizing dissidents with dogs. Political dissent in Saudi Arabia is crushed using inhuman practices, and 17 of of the 19 hijackers were from ``friendly`` kingdom of Saudia who attacked USA. Then why would the laws of nature be different for Paksitan . ``
Stifling political dissent using force is wrong. We know, we have seen enough of it in Pakistan. Expressing political dissent by using violence and killing innocents is wrong too. And if stopping the violence of political dissenters requires using the police and army to crush them, so be it. But I think you are being too generous by labeing terrorists who conduct violence as `political dissenters`. There is a big difference between the two in my dictionary.
#98 Posted by Akash on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Harimau
``Does any Chowk interactor have family in Ahmedabad or some other city in Gujarat? Can all of us Hindus start a fund specifically targeted to help the affected Muslims of Ahmedabad with and ask a person resident in Gujarat to disburse the moneys collected? Don`t you think that would be more helpful than all this public mudslinging?
``
This is the most pragmatic thing to do. I know some other people said the same some time back. Please take this mail seriously and if anybody has connections in Ahmedabad, he might like to post his email addy.
``Does any Chowk interactor have family in Ahmedabad or some other city in Gujarat? Can all of us Hindus start a fund specifically targeted to help the affected Muslims of Ahmedabad with and ask a person resident in Gujarat to disburse the moneys collected? Don`t you think that would be more helpful than all this public mudslinging?
``
This is the most pragmatic thing to do. I know some other people said the same some time back. Please take this mail seriously and if anybody has connections in Ahmedabad, he might like to post his email addy.
#99 Posted by urstru1y on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Praise for the Vajpayee government from a very unusual quarter - SAUDI ARABIA`S ONLY ENLISH-MEDIUM DAILY:
Once again it was proven on March 15 that the world`s largest democracy has the will and resources at its command to uphold the rule of law.
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=13569
Once again it was proven on March 15 that the world`s largest democracy has the will and resources at its command to uphold the rule of law.
http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=13569
#100 Posted by Romair on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
A good move. Something that should be done to the Gujart police also.
``All senior policemen in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, have been removed from their posts after a weekend grenade attack on a church killed five people.
Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf ordered the changes after summoning senior government and security figures to review law and order on Tuesday.
The officers include Islamabad`s inspector general and senior superintendent of police.
President Musharraf had expressed ``dismay`` at Sunday`s security lapse, which allowed a man laden with grenades to walk into a church in the capital`s diplomatic enclave.`` (BBC)
``All senior policemen in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, have been removed from their posts after a weekend grenade attack on a church killed five people.
Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf ordered the changes after summoning senior government and security figures to review law and order on Tuesday.
The officers include Islamabad`s inspector general and senior superintendent of police.
President Musharraf had expressed ``dismay`` at Sunday`s security lapse, which allowed a man laden with grenades to walk into a church in the capital`s diplomatic enclave.`` (BBC)
#101 Posted by temporal on March 19, 2002 1:29:40 pm
http://www.dawn.com/2002/03/19/op.htm
October 2002 worries
By Shahid Javed Burki
Dear mr. burki:
…just read your article in today’s dawn…the quotes are in parenthesis followed by my comments…
[…General Pervez Musharraf needs to act now, act decisively and act comprehensively to ensure that Pakistan does not return to political and economic instability after October 2002. There are enough people in Pakistan - among them not only bankers and businessmen but also politicians - who worry that something quite significant needs to be done in order to save the country from another period of chaos and uncertainty…]
---there is an inherent flaw in this line of thinking…it elevates the general to a level just above the prophet’s and possibly to the level of a minor god’s…in simpler words…there is no one person one can rely upon to fix all that ails Pakistan…it has to be a collective effort…collective also presupposes consensus…the only group I can think of is the army corps commanders…but that is a very small coterie…and if I can give you one example why even it may not work now?
…remember the general seconded to wapda to fix it…last month in a speech he admitted…publicly admitted that he…(read the might of pak army)…was unable to change the ‘culture’ at wapda…this is a significant admission of defeat…failure to change one government department…and you mr. burki are talking about the whole country?
[…Given where Pakistan is situated, there must also be a large number of people concerned about Pakistan`s economic and political situation to hope for some fairly significant reshaping of Pakistan`s political landscape….]
---yes there must be…but where are they presently…and can they involve themselves to make a difference?
[….Will General Musharraf rise to this challenge?…]
---as I indicated earlier…he is but a mortal…
[…Has the Supreme Court judgment that legitimized his assumption of power on October 12, 1999 given him enough space within which to introduce a fundamental change?…]
---no…and he has admitted it himself…notice his posturing to stay around for another five years at least?…
[…Will the political establishment allow him to change the structure in a radical way?…]
---(a)…if you mean ‘existing’ political structure…the answer is no…reason?…simple…they have too much tied in with ‘status quo’ to think ‘radical’…
[… Should the general and his advisers treat the 1973 Constitution as if it is divine revelation not subject to any kind of tinkering? Or, conversely, should he take the courageous step of wiping the slate almost clean and starting all over again?…]
---if we are talking of change in a radical way then it is obvious…clean the slate…but this should have been done way back when he was ushered in…using the available goodwill to ride over the predictable criticisms from the interest groups…can it be done now?…am not so sure…sure he can still take important steps…one at a time…
[President Pervez Musharraf, during his recent visit to the United States, said that the Pakistani society was divided into three components: Two fringes on either side of the spectrum and a vast majority in between… One fringe comprised the devotees of radical and militant Islam; the other the ultra liberal community that blindly followed the West. Both fringes were rejected by the vast majority of the Pakistani population. This majority - the silent majority - wanted its voice to be heard and he was determined that he would make that happen…] and […I divide the Pakistani society also into three components but one of them is different from President Musharraf`s list… the third element in my scheme is not the ultra liberal but the powerful political elite that has quite deliberately refused to allow the silent majority to find its voice…]
---my take is a little different…the society is polarized into two groups…haves and have-nots…if we put it simply…the latter you may call silent majority…awaam-un-naas… or any other fancy term…the first group is the one that has ruled Pakistan from day one…
…this group is an amalgam of this troika…(1) the army, (2) the bureaucrats, and (3) the feudal-industrialist-business group…
…at various times in our history ...within this troika one group assumes relative ascendancy over others…for instance…during the early ayub years the army was on top...in the middle years the feudals regrouped and surfaced to successfully sabotage the land reforms and then in the latter days the bureaucrats assumed ascendancy…
…to bring any ‘radical’ or meaningful reforms in Pakistan the silent majority has to be empowered…and this can only come at the expense of the powers held and assumed by the first group… the sahibs…the haves…
…since we are talking about ‘radical’ reforms…the sahibs will not (understandably) volunteer any dilution or lessening of their powers…
…but that is the only effective way to address the historical imbalance…
…so what to do about it?…i think that will come about when (a) the first group…the sahibs voluntarily gives up their powers…(very unlikely) …or when the powers are usurped from under them…now that would be a possibility fraught with danger…and violence…violence of the kind that may shame Trotsky…
[…The programme of political reform that Professor Waseem and I presented in our study is directed at loosening the grip of this group on Pakistan`s political system. Another general election in October 2002 - following upon the general elections of 1985, 1988, 1990, 1993 and 1997 - will not release the powerful hold of this small elite on the country`s political system. To do so will require some radical political engineering. What form should that take is the subject of tomorrow`s article…]
---i have expressed my views…will look forward to reading tomorrow what your radical political engineering entails…
yours sincerely,
temporal
(anoop: my apologies for using this board)
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