Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi

Zafar #89

Agreed. My earlier posts are from a completely different discussion. My point to Soysauce is also in that context.

I agree that there is not the slightest relationship between Saudi Arabia and the brutal killings in Gujarat. The latter have completely to do with prejudice and hatred towards muslims that has been generated by RSS/VHP and tolerated by too many Indians.

Reply Pmishra2

The Saudi funding of Wahabbi schools is an issue, but it is very self indulgent to blame it for the majority of communal feeling among Muslims and Hindus in India today. That lets our home grown hate-mongers off the hook – and excuses our own traditions and prejudices (among all segments of society) from any kind of critical assessment. We have to accept responsibility for our own shortcomings – blaming foreigners (The “Foreign Hand” by another name) might be comfortable, but it is not good enough.

soysauce #81

You have asked an excellent question: what separates twenty years from today? Why should many hindus view things differently today than they did 20 years ago?

Hint: It has something to do with oil. It has to do with one of the worlds most-backward societies possessing an enormous amount of money. It has to do with fantastically rich people investing their money in virulent fanaticism. It has to do with 1000`s of indians working in the gulf states having to suppress their religion.

I will ask you this question again: how many moderate indian muslims have received any support from places like Saudi Arabia? And now, let me ask you a different question: how many extremists, fanatics and bigots receive finance from Saudi Arabia? And what is the single connecting factor for all of these people?

DO you really believe this has no impact on Indian culture and middle-class indian world view? The real challenge is how to respond to this changing world WITHOUT violence against our own minorities. But to pretend the world is unchanging....!

Ref meen-kari-kuzhambu #: 82

[#81 pmishra

I thought we were talking about indian muslims. Wherefore wahabism & such? I related an incident regarding the wholesale murder of jains by a hindu king on another board. Who should apologize for that and to whom?]

No apologies would be needed in that instance. However, we must have a quota system by which the upper castes of India must be punished for THEIR historic crime which merely consisted of refusing to have social interaction with people of other castes. After all, any psychiatrist (that great quack Headshrinker comes to mind here) would tell you that a killing is instantaneous and is not so bad as a perceived insult which causes long-term damage to the psyche.

Your arguments are proof that the quota candidates from India ARE inferior to the upper caste folks.

Ref Ralph #: 78

[soysauce 77

Pagans are not clamoring for adoption of pagan calendars and rebuilding of pagan temples in Christian countries for the same reasons that Hindus are not asking for adoption of Hindu calendar and rebuilding of Hindu temples in Pakistan. Comparing pagans in Christian countries and Hindus in India is just dishonest.]

Please don`t expect logical arguments or intellectual integrity from karuvattu-kuzhambu who calls himself soysauce.

re: sadna

taking away tax exempt status isn`t gonna do jackshit to the VHP`s coffers...the wealthy indian doctors, bankers, and tech gurus from america will continue to fund them, for reasons right or wrong...

pmishra2 #81

You would have seen this already, but just FYI for whatever its worth.

Statement : World Hindu Council of America(VHPA) deplores the Supreme Court verdict barring Hindus to worship at Ayodhya

http://www.vhp-america.org/press/vhpa_pr_031302.htm


IRS : Charitable organisations : Exemption Requirements for 501(c)(3)
http://www.irs.gov/exempt/charitable/display/0,,i1%3D3%26i2%3D18%26genericId%3D6874,00.html

re: pmishra2

{{(2) Most countries with a christian background have good rules regarding their minorities, especially their minorities right to religion.}}

right on...their past may have been ugly, but they`ve reformed...

#81 pmishra

I thought we were talking about indian muslims. Wherefore wahabism & such? I related an incident regarding the wholesale murder of jains by a hindu king on another board. Who should apologize for that and to whom?

You seem to be adopting the clinton strategy of coopting your adversary`s agenda. 20 years ago, i bet you, most people would not have cared about ayodhya, would not even have known what was and wasn`t there and would not have known the difference between seculars, pseudoseculars and binoculars. There was no victim complex among most hindus. Therefore you`re wrong to say that this was some historic problem that needs to be addressed.

Re: VHP`s tax-exempt status, you may need to contact the IRS first rather than a state AG..

soysauce #77

I disagree with you in the strongest terms that my message strengthens the RSS-VHP forces. On the contrary, it is the unwillingness of many educated indians to accept the reality of the massive and systematic destruction of the medieval hindu-buddhist culture of North India and Afghanistan that is helping the RSS-VHP.

Acceptance of this historical truth does not mean revenge, it means understanding the reasons for this destruction. And the reasons are clear: economic, technical and educational backwardness, lack of social justice and cohesion.

As far as christians go, I am no great fan of christianity, but I do note the following:

(1) The pope has apologized for anti-semitism and atrocities against native peoples specially in the Americans. Indeed, he called for the catholic church to repent for a 1000 years for what they did.

(2) Most countries with a christian background have good rules regarding their minorities, especially their minorities right to religion.

(3) You are deeply naive and misinformed if you think Wahhabi and orthodox strains of Islam view conversion and destruction of other cultures

as only part of their past. These people view it as very much part of their present.

(4) Given that one of the richest countries in the world, Saudi Arabia, backs this kind of hatred, this is a real threat to all of us. The Saudi State does NOT help its poor neighbors with their real problems (education, infra-structure) instead it funds the most backward looking religous institutions. Where do you think all those madrasas are getting their funding from?

Why do you think the sane voices of Indian muslims trying to stay true to their religion and yet accomodate indian multi-cultural reality get no support from these two-bit sheiks?

(5)

My project on the VHP is moving forward. I have contacted the state attorney general and a lawyer who has worked on related cases. I plan to work with them to make the case to the relevant authorities.

Miracle in Ajmer ... now if only all the Ram Murtis would start weeping ...

Khwaja’s ‘reflection’ at Chishti shrine

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ FRIDAY, MARCH 29, 2002 12:16:04 AM ]

AJMER: A mysterious ‘‘reflection’’ at the Dargah of Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti on Wednesday night had thousands of devotees in a spiritual frenzy. For the administration, however, it turned out to be a horrifying night as they strived to control the crowd to ensure that no untoward incident took place.

According to sources, around 8 pm a ‘‘reflection’’ was noticed on the main dome over the sanctum sanctorum of Khwaja Saheb. This ‘‘reflection’’ was interpreted as the reflection of the face of Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti, the celebrated Sufi saint of Ajmer.

As the word spread, devotees started gathering in and around the Dargah complex to view the ‘‘miracle’’. Soon there were close to 7,000 people waiting with bated breath.

According to Syed Irfan Usmani, a Khadim at the Dargah, ‘‘It’s a miracle that has happened and I saw quite distinctly a face and half body along with another image of the Kaba.’’ Usmani said it was a miracle from Khwaja Saheb and added that a message had been sent to the country to put an end to all violence and spread peace and harmony.

Other Khadims and devotees also related similar accounts. The stream of pilgrims thronging the Dargah did not seem to end even on Thursday morning.

Tahmed #72

National Human Rights Commission of India is not public watchdog but a satutatory body established by Government of India as per an Act of Parliament.

Its Chairman as well as most of the members are retired Judges and are appointed by Govt. of India.

Its funding is done by Government and not individuals.

As an Institution, it has shown its independence as per terms of reference decided through Parliament Act.

soysauce 77

Pagans are not clamoring for adoption of pagan calendars and rebuilding of pagan temples in Christian countries for the same reasons that Hindus are not asking for adoption of Hindu calendar and rebuilding of Hindu temples in Pakistan. Comparing pagans in Christian countries and Hindus in India is just dishonest.

#75 pmishra2

``I do believe that the Islamic community has not

separated itself from this destruction. This is in

contrast to the Christians, who also have an

extremely bloody history of combining conquest

with religion. Until this separation takes place

within Islam, and minorities are able to flourish in

Islamic states, many people will have concerns

about islam. ``

What do you mean by islamic community separating itself? The christians who destroyed pagan temples and erected churches there, took over the pagan calendar, have not ``separated`` themselves from anything. Nor are the pagans clamoring for that. You are playing directly into the hands of the likes of VHP (btw how goes the effort to deny them the tax-exempt status)who, first amplify historic grievances and then blur the distinction between the present and the past so that these grievances continue to exist..

Children are very perceptive - they are v adept in understanding the truth nomatter how bad/confused it may seem to adults. At the same time draw wrong conclusions, spread wrong ideas if things arent explained clearly.

The reason I say this is because it just reminded me of the past. Pls read the foll, enjoy it and keep all sarcastic/scholastic comments to yourselves. Inanity welcome. My eldest cousin was doing engg and would bring her friends home for group study sessions (with a lot of giggling) much to our grandfathers annoyance re closed doors!! Somehow my youngest cousin - and his friends (all 4-7 yrs then) - would watch the comings&goings with interest and you guessed it. One of their very imaginative/colourful conversations was overheard by our grandfather - needless to say all hell broke loose. All her male friends were banned under threat of dire consequences which involved his swords, revolver and the pet daschund - the usual routine!! Much much todo followed. Later she discovered the culprits. But by then for her atleast the damage had been done : )

Shah #74

I have not made any statements about hindus

being victimized by indian muslims. What I have

said is the following:

``The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist

artifacts throughout North India is a basic fact of

history. Not a single temple of any history survives

in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Northern India. All of

these areas have had a major hindu-buddhist

civilization for 4000 years. This needs to be

acknowledged. The aggressive positioning of

mosques and other structures in locations deeply

sacred to Hindus also requires

acknowledgement.``

I do believe that the Islamic community has not

separated itself from this destruction. This is in

contrast to the Christians, who also have an

extremely bloody history of combining conquest

with religion. Until this separation takes place

within Islam, and minorities are able to flourish in

Islamic states, many people will have concerns

about islam.

I see this as no different than the caste-system in

Hindu culture. Until Hindu society fully

acknowledges the damage of caste and works to

repair it, there will be questions about its integrity

and functioning as a faith.