Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi

roohi #69 I think between public watchdog groups like Human Rights Commissions on the one hand, and a free press and even the internet to broadcast their findings, we have the basis for making up for deficiencies in formal state institutions (police, judiciary) as well as for countering the threat to a peaceful society that is posed by extremists. It is heartening that both India and Pakistan have active public watchdog groups and a free press. They deserve the financial and moral support of all those who seek peace and progress in that part of the world.

Shah #68

I have no idea why you are ranting at me. Your message bears no relationship to mine. I would appreciate the courtesy of your reading my message(s) before you begin some long (and content-free!) diatribe.

roohi #66

No, never heard of the organisation. Since it was my first and only visit to Vrindavan, I can`t really say whether the conditions have improved or not. Though, must say that after all the talk about the town being filty that I have heard before hand, I didn`t find it all that bad. Guess, I was expecting something even worse.

Mona

NHRC indicts Modi, seeks CBI probe

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, APRIL 01, 2002 8:26:52 PM ]

NEW DELHI: In a vote of no-confidence in Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi, the National Human Rights Commission said on Monday that it trusted neither his government’s explanation on why the violence occurred and has continued for so long, nor its ability to prosecute those guilty of heinous crimes.

The NHRC, in its ‘‘preliminary comments’’ on the Gujarat government’s ‘‘comprehensive’’ action taken report, noted widespread allegations that FIRs have been ‘‘poorly or wrongly’’ recorded and that criminal investigations were being ‘‘influenced’’ by extraneous considerations.

‘‘The commission is of the view that the integrity of the process has to be restored. It, therefore, recommends the entrusting of certain critical cases to the CBI. These include the cases relating to the Godhra incident, which is at present being investigated by the Government Railway Police, the Chamanpura (Gulbarga society) incident, the Naroda-Patiya incident, the Best Bakery case in Vadodara and the Sardarpura case in Mehsana district,’’ the NHRC said.

The commission said special courts should try these cases on a day-to-day basis with the judges being handpicked by the chief justice of the high court. Special prosecutors should be appointed as needed. Policemen, bureaucrats and politicians who facilitated the violence through acts of omission should also be punished, it added.

‘‘Action should be initiated to identify and proceed against those who have failed to act appropriately to control the violence in its incipient stages.’’ Material collected by NGOs such as Citizen’s Initiative, PUCL and others should also be used.

The official explanation of ‘‘intelligence failure’’ leading to the Godhra incident and subsequent attacks on Muslims in the state was seen by the NHRC as an excuse aimed at hiding the fact that the administration had failed to protect the life, liberty, equality and dignity of the people. ‘‘Unless rebutted by the state government, the adverse inference arising against it would render it accountable. The burden is, therefore, now on the state govt to rebut this presumption,’’ the commission said.

The NHRC found fault with the state government calling the Godhra incident ‘‘premeditated’’ without ‘‘clarifying as to who precisely was responsible for this incident’’. The commission noted that Modi’s claim of containing violence within the first 72 hours was ‘‘naive’’.

‘‘Violence continues in Gujarat at the time of writing these proceedings,’’ the NHRC said.

Mona #64

Have you heard of the Vrindavan Preservation Society ? They did some fund raising with the Indian Association of Greater Boston a while back ... the name stuck in my head - don`t know if they are doing anything useful to clean up the place or are some VHP chaap NRI group.

shammi #58

Cool, I am all for your founding the next Infosys and other great things. In other words you are not interested in this issue ==== great ! But in that case I am not sure why you felt you had to comment on my posting. Either take the heat or stay out of the discussion.

dost-mittar #63

You did not respond to my central point - presumably you either accept it or do not feel it is important enought to respond to. In any case, without addressing its contents there is really nothing substantive to discuss.

``The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist artifacts throughout North India is a basic fact of history. Not a single temple of any history survives in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Northern India. All of these areas have had a major hindu-buddhist civilization for 4000 years. This needs to be acknowledged. The aggressive positioning of mosques and other structures in locations deeply sacred to Hindus also requires acknowledgement.``

How should acknowledgement be given? I must say I was deeply amused by your idea that the islamic community has no simple way to speak up!!! This from a group that does not tire in issuing ``fatwas`` every day and night! Every two bit mullah issues rulings on world politics, local elections, right to beat your wife and so on.

How come this community was able to speak up mightily to support Bin Laden and pass a death sentence on Salman Rushdie? Lets get real here! Lets not take this discussion to the absurdly theoretical level (you see there is no islamic pope, etc. etc.). There are many simple and practical ways that such a dialog can take place.

As for your statement that there is an alternative muslim view of all this destruction. Well, what is it? Lets put our cards on the table!

If it is, well, idol smashing is OK and these folks were kafirs anyway, well, lets say it openly. One of the most amusing sidelights of the Bamiyan Buddha destruction was an opinion from a revered cleric of Al-Azhar in Cairo: he said there was no need to demolish the Bamiyan Buddhas, as these images were no longer being worshipped! Heh, heh, I am sure that really impressed 1.5 billion hindus and buddhists.

If it is, this was a long time ago and we no longer agree with these practices, and look current muslim societies accommodate minorities including hindus and buddhists (none of this tribal ``people of the book`` junk please!), well that is a whole another matter.

dost-mittar

Sorry for the delay in response. Was busy lately - what with the festivities and all.

You are right about the filth in Vrindavan. However we visited the place when the weather was pleasant and thankfully it had not started to rain. But despite all the filth, the town has one of the most delicious `pedas` to offer and if you could put caution to air and not think of indigestion then you could enjoy the `bedai`, `samosas` and `kachoris`, which along with the pedas are the trademark of the Brij-Bhoomi.

Mona

scout #...

Crash course in Hinduism ... you asked for it ...

#20 ``judging by the number of God`s incarnations Hinduism has (correct me if i`m wrong)``

I DO agree with everything you said about avoiding violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land.

Pmishra2

``One of the great ironies of this situation is that the ``bad guys`` (RSS, VHP) have found an issue that has genuine historical depth and complexity and deserves serious debate and resolution. Being bad guys they can only use this issue for division, violence and backwardness. The good guys (the secularists) refuse to engage intellectually with this issue, instead focussing on the RSS and VHP`s loathsome words and actions. This is a fundamental blunder and one reason why the RSS and VHP have been successful in reaching out to educated indians.

My own belief is that we need to re-claim the issue from the bad guys, give it the analysis and understanding it deserves, find symbolic and practical ways to resolve it and move on. BUT BEFORE WE CAN SOLVE A PROBLEM WE HAVE TO NAME IT AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT!

``

This is exactly the problem! These so called secularists are not even ready to acknowledge the problem. This way they have alienated a large segment of Indian population who chose to follow VHP as a backlash against these self-professed secularists. The secularists look the other way when the bitter truths are told to them. There is a need to snatch away the leadership of Hindus from the clutches of these hypocrite secularists/psecs and the Hindu extremists. Time for the middle man to step in who acknowledges all the historical inequities alongwith the caveat that it is INCORRECT to seek retribution from a group because of their ancestors.

RanaRansher #57,

you may point fingers at me, but this problem remains in your country. i find it funny that Indians, on the one hand cry about past religious injustices, and then call their country secular.

and if the government endorses such campaigns, it`s certainly not secular.

do whatever you want, but don`t do it under the farce of secularity and democracy, that`s hypocricy if you ask me. the only laudable democracy and secularity in the world exists in North America and some European countries.

the self-made pedestals Indians and Pakistanis stand on are made of sand.

roohi #...

I don`t need a crash course in Hinduism, I don`t care for religious nuances, Muslim or Hindu.

i was trying to make a point, but obviously some people are too `bitter` and `righteous` to hear it, and think they are being attacked by a Pakistani.

re: RanaRansher

{{AMar Akbar Anthony}}

now THAT was a good movie...better than that Gone With The Wind (wish it was) garbage people go on about....some other good ones: namakharaam; sharaabi; sholay; don; etc etc.

Re: Pmishra2

``...BUT BEFORE WE CAN SOLVE A PROBLEM WE HAVE TO NAME IT AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT! ...``

there are many ways of skinning this cat. One is to go back in history, uncover every wrong, analyze it, and truth be told till everyone is blue in their face. The other is, educate people with a modern, liberal, scientific education (OK -- throw in some liberal arts as well), and develop the economy with a feverish focus, and make a clean break from the past. A little bit of economic well-being with a decent respect (backed with a good old thick laathi) for everyone`s rights will go a long way to discredit the politics of divisiveness. We can spend our energy in many different ways, I would rather spend in developing the next Infosys, than on digging up the history in Baburnama and the title deeds of a now-demolished religious structure.

re: scout

``i hear ya and i agree...that`s what pisses me off. people are too busy worrying about temples and masjids and other inanimate things instead of respecting human life and livelihood.``

cut it out .... stop being such a hypocrite ...why ? you yourself were more concerned about how many Gods, which Gods, what should be holy with regards to Hindu temples.....

YOu dont even want to acknowledge a problem. Forget the solution (everyone become ``insaaN``) it wont come unless you can even acknowledge problems. I really do wonder why Muslims don`t apply their ``balanced and secular`` views to other Muslims. It seems to be reserved for the kafir.

What Mona has raised here is a very important issue ? What she is pointing out is exactly what the debate is all about ..... the history book revisions in India are occuring because of the ``white lies`` floated to appease people in the name of ``comunal harmony``. I personally agree with her (and prefer ``communal harmony`` down your throat type movies like AMar Akbar Anthony`` - but that is a different matter).
Nobody can be and should be held responsible for what their ancestors may or may not have done. All these apologies and reconcialiation is just nonsense and reconciliation of egos really. However, the lies should stop. People should acknowldge what did occur.

There are some people wondering that it would have been better if I had told the truth to my niece. But what purpose would that serve? No matter what the truth is, I wouldn`t want her to grow up being intellectually skewed. I would rather be an escapist than face the truth. For not every issue is solved through head-on confrontation. A lady lost her five years old grandson in the Godhra incident. He is still missing. An autorickshaw driver saw his son of the same age being torched alive in front of him in Ahmedabad. I shudder when I put my niece and nephew in their place. I would rather face these issues than worry about redeeming the past and if that makes me ‘intellectual dishonest’, so be it.

Though this analogue many sounds very romanticised but I would like to take the liberty to ask sonething. What if you are in love with someone and give yourself completely to that person and after taking you for a ride that person ditches you and goes ahead with his/ her life? Do you set out to seek vengeance or learn lesson from it and start looking towards future? This might not be a similar issue but I feel is more personal than any place of worship.

If so many people can spread the ‘truth’ to incite hatred, then a little white lie to bring people closer is not that bad for honesty is not always the best policy.

Mona

t #43

You`re right ofcourse - just trying to educate for the sake of the millions who worship the Maker in the form of Ram and Krishna. Seems people think there are a few million murtis in every hindus little puja!

Understanding others makes better insaaNs don`t you think ?

shammi #52

You use words like ``consensus`` and ``no benefit`` as though these terms are fully defined and understood in every situation. All of these terms need to argued through and their applicability understood in each case. To use these terms as though they are self-evident indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the terms themselves.

Till the 1950`s there was no consensus that black people in the USA deserved equal treatment. Even today in North India there is no consensus that dalit peoples be given access to education and jobs. The consensus in the USA changed in the 60`s, and we all hope and should work to change attitudes in India.

In India, there has not been the acknowledgement of the massive destruction of hindu and buddhist artifacts. In Afghanistan and Pakistan the official and popular culture takes great pride in the destruction of these artifacts. The Bamiyan Buddha destruction was not an isolated incident: it is part of a sequence that has been going on for 500 years: the ``cleansing`` of Afghan society of its hindu-buddhist past.

In Tibet one aspect of chinese brutality has been the systematic destruction of monasteries and buddhist sites. These are justified are removing ``slavery`` and ``backward attitudes`` (does it remind you of a similar argument justifying destruction of artifacts?). Do you support the Tibetan peoples right to rebuild these structures? After all, in some cases, these structures have been replaced by clinics or transportation centers. Or do you say that ``consensus`` suggests that there is ``no benefit`` to their re-building. Whose ``consensus``? Whose ``benefit``?

What should the correct attitude of the Indian peoples and Indian state to this massive and religously justified destruction? Should we pretend it never really happened (always foolish to do so), should we demand ``revenge`` (inhuman, barbaric and loathsome) or should there some other process of resolution?

One of the great ironies of this situation is that the ``bad guys`` (RSS, VHP) have found an issue that has genuine historical depth and complexity and deserves serious debate and resolution. Being bad guys they can only use this issue for division, violence and backwardness. The good guys (the secularists) refuse to engage intellectually with this issue, instead focussing on the RSS and VHP`s loathsome words and actions. This is a fundamental blunder and one reason why the RSS and VHP have been successful in reaching out to educated indians.

My own belief is that we need to re-claim the issue from the bad guys, give it the analysis and understanding it deserves, find symbolic and practical ways to resolve it and move on. BUT BEFORE WE CAN SOLVE A PROBLEM WE HAVE TO NAME IT AND ACKNOWLEDGE IT!