Visit to Krishna-Janam-Bhoomi

Ralph,

Why cant temples be built next to mosques; instead of destroying the mosques? Just as minorities should respect majorities--the hallmark of democracy is that VICE VERSA should be guarded and respected as well. Otherwise words like ``secularism``, ``religious freedom``, ``democracy`` are meaningless.

There is much emphasis in the US system of democracy to prevent ``the tyranny of majority``. It is an elaborate system of ``checks & balances``. Thats why the Civil Liberties mvt fought for the rights of those annoying Hare Krishna guys to distribute pamphlets at US airports, or the right of the Jehovah`s Witness to knock on your door to distribute pamphlets--even if it is a bother.

S.Arabia has NEVER claimed its a democracy or is a secular country. So building a temple or synagauge next to the Kabaa is a moot issue.

If India constantly (and many times annoyingly) shouts at world forums about being the ``World`s largest democracy``--then it has automatically taken the responsibility of being judged by the prevailing standards of democracy.

Dukhi Ram

I am not fake, I am just petty. I dont want to con people, nor do I want to brainwash them, with charas, bhang or my miracles for crying out loud. If that was what I wanted, I would have done it long time ago. All I want is an isolated island of my own, where I am god over my nymphs. Where I love to listen to Serendipity. Where I am the Narcissus and I break my Echo`s heart every day, whenever she tries to speak to me. I am petty. Not fake.

re: scout
``better yet, why stop at birth place? ``

I am sure you know, people don`t ``stop`` at the birth place.

IN Afghanistan one of the most famous mosques is where supposedly Prophet Mohammad`s cloak sits. Mullah Omar takes the cloak out and shows it to the ``faithful`` and they do sajda to him (err fall at this feet) and kiss the cloak. That then seals his being Amir-ul-Momineen. How his cloak got there is irrelevant.

Kashmir has the famous ``Hazrat-bal`` mosque where supposedly a hair of Prophet Mohammad lies. The greatest new angle is the likelihood that Jesus CHrist was amongst the buried holimen in some of these present day mosques and they want to exhume the bodies. They already have gone ahead with this in parts of Pakistan. Aage aage hota hai - dekho. (Oh GOd !!by sharing that here have I just karmically sown a future riot somewhere ??)

Why ? .... in the US of A (and the rest of the world) , Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christian, Jews, Mormons, Moonies, etc, etc. all have their places of worship where absolutely nothing is sacred about them. They just bought the land.

And maybe you could explain what is so sacred about the Kabba. What is so special about that ? Or perhaps why Osama ``theGreatMussalman`` BinLaden is upset about the Americans ``desecrating`` ``the`` holy land ?

WHat are you trying to say scout ?
When humans ``organize`` themselves around religion this is what you get and this is one of the displays of ``faith``. Organized religion is indeed the biggest crime towards humanity.

Long live Kafirism !! join now - still a thriving ``sect`` not an ailing ``church``.

scout #20. Every religion has a few very holy places. kashi, ayodhiya, mathura are very holy to hindus. They worship ram, krishna, shiva most importantly. Minorities in any country should respect the basic rights of the majority community. Intransigence of one minority creates anger and ill will against all minorities.

rana #20. Well said. Let us see some secular muslims advocate construction of a temple next to kaba in medina. No one should destroy Kaba. Only build a temple next to it. That is not too much to ask to show the spirit of accommodation.

AAmir #19

There are differences between temple styles in South India and North India. So What??

The issue is the systematic destruction of

hindu, buddhist and jain temples in North

India. Just visit the Qutub Minar in Dehli. There is ample documentation and physical debris to prove its relationship to hindu and buddhist temples.

I have personally visited temples in the Jammu region where the faces

of all the idols have been systematically smashed. There is plenty of historical evidence to explain why this happened and who was responsible.

Don`t waste our time with your silly equivocations. Next, you will be explaining all the mosques perched right on top of traditional hindu pilgrimage sites as an amazing coincidence or even worse, a ``sign of respect``.

Within Islam destruction of explicit divine representation is supported. This is deeply hurtful to Hindus and Buddhists. Until muslims modernize and put some distance between this tradition and themselves, this issue will not go away.

The north of India, including what is now Pakistan have suffered specially from this type of systematic destruction. Almost no ancient temples survive in this region accept as ruins.

In the south and east India Islam has quite a different history and correspondingly relationship between hindus and muslims are also quite different.

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very interesting arguments.....
especially the very ``secular`` balanced views expressed by the Muslims on this board.
I agree with you 100%. No 2 wrongs make a right. People should respect and learn from history and not seek to ``correct`` it by ``undoing`` things. And taking sides on a purely religious issue like this is, well, in the least unsecular. How far back is back afterall ?

I hope some of you could go and solve the Arab-Israeli dispute. Maybe you could figure out Jerusalem for them. I hope your secular arguments even apply to Islam and Islamists.

Layman #8, ``I am not sure of the religious significance the mosques in Spain had... but the birth place of God`s incarnations (avatars) do have a special significance, dont you agree?``

judging by the number of God`s incarnations Hinduism has (correct me if i`m wrong), there can`t possibly just a couple of places that are sacred then? where do you draw the line?

better yet, why stop at birth place?

in any event, isn`t it better to avoid violence and the deaths of innocents due to some holy piece of land? i`m sure the God who was born there must be looking down and shaking his head. Conflicts regarding religion are not really conflicts of Gods but conflicts of the egos of people.

``Also, hardly any Muslims in Spain at the moment to rue over the lost mosques, while there are lots of Hindus in India, and tasting political power after a loooong time, so there...``

dude, the only country hurting in all this temple vs. mosque bull$hit is India. i don`t see what kind of political gain unrest is.

For Roohi,

Kemal Ataturk to a British Correspondent ` I have no religion, and sometimes I wish all religions to the bottom of the sea` (1928)

Harimau,

`` Do you know that Nehru attended the opening of the Somnath Temple that was rebuilt after 1947? He said that the new temple finally started healing the gash that had been on the collective psyche of the Hindus for over a thousand years. Do you even understand why an agnostic like Nehru would have said that? Fortunately, Mahmud of Ghazni did not erect a mosque in place of the temple he destroyed so there was no controversy over the rebuilding of the Somnath Temple as there is today over Ramjanmabhoomi and Krishnajanmabhoomi.``

Thankyou sir for that information. I didn`t know that. I will never again mention Nehru as one of my favorite world leaders since according to you he was a closet Hindu Bigot.

I never understand this need to heal the `wounds` inflicted by people 1000 years ago in a different time to different people in context of a different environment. Only fools `heal` such wounds! Next perhaps the Muslim World should attack Mongolia to avenge the destruction of Baghdad by Halaqu in the 13th century, and while we are at it, lets go kill a couple of Englishmen for King Richard`s attrocities in the Holy Land during the Crusades...

Stupid, Stupid people!

#: 8

Layman

scout #3:

``there are many mosques in Spain that were turned into churches....it doesn`t really matter. people in Spain are doing fine. it`s just us desis who get idiotic about reli``

Layman

Well Done!

Teach these semi baked muslims there own history !!!

I have a dream, a desire, since I was a little kid, since the time I started reading on my own. But before I tell you about my dream, I want to ask people of Hindu faith a couple of questions. By george it is not my intention to offend you but to ask you to clarify certain things about your faith. It is my understanding that most of the prominent Hindu gods shared approximately a contemporary time with each other. The earliest Upnishads were written some 1000 to 1500 BC. The epics that describe those gods are from Upnaishads-meaning that gods came to earth in prehistoric times. So my question is when was the last time a god was born. And who. Why aren`t gods born these days. I have read that Gandhi is also considered an Avtar, was he literally an avtar or is it just a figure of speech. Why there hasn`t been a god born since past 2500-3000 years. Is there a chance that a god is born tomorrow. Does it have to be India where he will be born. Will you accept a god if he is born in Africa or even Paksitan. how would you know that a god is born. Does a new god has to do only good things to Hindu people or a god doing good things to Paksitani Muslims will also be a god. For example, was mother thresa a godess a devi and what about maulana abdul sattar edhi, is he a potential god.

I ask these questions because I have a dream since I was a kid. It is actually a carnal desire rather than a dream to be a god at some lonely undiscovered island. I think being god is great, being a prophet suckks. If you are a god you do not need to carry that bagage of morality and righteous virtue all the time like prophets. You do whatever you want to do because you are god-the unquestionable, the absolute, all powerful god. I like hindu gods better because they are not as absolute, as unquestionable, as all powerfull as Sematic gods. It is easier to relate to Hindu gods. I dont want to be an avtar like Gandhi. Gandhi had to work his tail off to become an avatar. I do not want to work that hard-I just want to be a god. I am sure if I know how, I will find my island.

rsaxena

why thankyou ... :)

The author says [True, that in many parts of India we find broken statues and temples. But if one is to be believed then why were mosques built in some of the places where once the temples stood. Was it because the invader/ ruler got some pervert satisfaction out of it? Or was it his way of recognizing the holiness of the place, while building a mosque there and offering prayers to the God in the way he was used to? We might never be sure because history only gives us an account of the rulers and invaders and tells us nothing about what went through the hearts and mind of the people of the bygone era.]

Yes, Mona. You are completely right. The Muslim invaders had nothing but the purest thoughts in mind. That is why they built their mosques on holy grounds wherever they found them. It is too bad that the Taliban was ousted before they could build a masjid where the Bamiyan Buddhas stood. They were only clearing the area to build a magnificent masjid so that the sanctity of the place could be recognized for years to come.

You, Mona, are a complete idiot. You are so full of sh!t I can`t believe it. Why did you lie to your niece? What happens when she learns of your lie from a Vishwa Hindu Parishad pamphlet that calls for the destruction of that particular mosque? Why didn`t you tell her that the previous Krishna temple was looted and then burnt to the ground by an invading Muslim king and the mosque was erected in its place and that Hindus over a period of time built their temple at an adjacent spot?... because that is the truth! Why didn`t you explain to her that it is perhaps not possible to set matters right today because of the fact that we have to learn to live with people of all faiths whereas that was not necessarily the thinking a thousand years back? Why did you lie? What were you so ashamed of that you had to lie?

Do you know that Nehru attended the opening of the Somnath Temple that was rebuilt after 1947? He said that the new temple finally started healing the gash that had been on the collective psyche of the Hindus for over a thousand years. Do you even understand why an agnostic like Nehru would have said that? Fortunately, Mahmud of Ghazni did not erect a mosque in place of the temple he destroyed so there was no controversy over the rebuilding of the Somnath Temple as there is today over Ramjanmabhoomi and Krishnajanmabhoomi.

[quote]

When Islam came to India, Muslims too saw this place. They to believing that God is one considered this place to be holy. So they built a mosque beside it to offer prayer in the way their religion has taught to them.

[end-quote]

This is intellectual dishonesty, plain and simple. This is not going to offer any solutions to anything. All it does is convinvce middle-class hindus that ``secular`` indians are afraid to face the truth about their islamic history. This is one reason why hate-mongers like the RSS have gained traction in India.

The systematic destruction of hindu and buddhist images and artifacts throughout North India and Afghanistan is something that needs to be acknowledged and accepted by all reasonable people. Doing so does not make one a hindu fanatic. Only a fanatic about the truth. Satyamev Jayate!

The next question is: what is the correct response? This is a difficult question, and like many others, requires open discussion and exchange of ideas.

Consider the caste-system. It is a terrible thing especially for the dalit peoples. It has basically been a form of slavery for them. It has mostly been perpetrated by upper-caste hindus.

Should we try to deny it? Should we pretend that in the past there could have been some reasons why it is was OK? Absolutely not. At the same time acknowledging this terrible crime does not give the right of revenge to dalits. There is affirmative action, special emphasis on dalit education, political empowerment,....

ylh #2

Would you please,please wake up and snap out of it ? This is Planet Earth - the most powerful nation here leads under the banner ``In God we Trust`` !! Bush is a born again and so is Putin !! No candidate running for President would ever deny God here in the USA. I get a couple of JW`s or Mormons at my door per month seeking new lambs for their flock. They politely ask me to accept the word of Jesus and I politely tell them No. This is OK with me and that is what we need to learn. I too have the freedom to go door to door handing out flowers and asking people to accept Krishna, if I wanted !!

Who are the Pakistanis and Indians with their millions of uneducated, poor masses to break out of the shameless ``subcontinental`` obsessions with god ? It is not going to HAPPEN in the REAL WORLD.

All we can do is TRY and get them to co-exist peacefully. It can happen - but people have to be persuaded to give up their cherished hatered of the OTHER faith and see them as people not evil monoliths !!! My neighborhood is filled with Jewish and Catholic families that a century or two ago were still in the Pogrom stage of coexistance.

Please DO continue to live in the fantasy world in your head while other people try and actually do something about reconciling people without stripping them of their faith !!!!! or GROW UP !!!