The Mahatma’s Progeny

#758 anNy

Sweetums, Vajpayee carries the same passport that i do. So does Thakre & so do Modi and countless other fascist thugs. Being indian has come to mean very little to me in the last few weeks and i couldn`t care less to engage in cross-border sniping with the pakis here, when my own house is burning...

dost-mittar #847
``A state policy based on such thinking, such as in Nehru`s India can nurture grievance in the majority community which can be suppressed only as long as a dominating personality like Nehru remains on the scene. Sooner or later it results in a backlash by the majority community, unless there is an overwhelming societal consensus (in the majority) that the minority has suffered massive discrimination.``

The problem with politicising the backlash is it doesnot serve to solve the perceived imbalance. No acting swiftly against the mob in Godhara and making much-publicised arrests of the mob which was involved is the sort of sleight-of-hand you would expect from the Congress, not the chest-thumping BJP. At least in a BJP-ruled state, one would expect Hindutva-cadres to have faith in their own BJP government and RSS-pracharak Chief Minister to deliver justice. But this glaring inconsistency between BJP`s own stated principle and practice is glossed over. That the ruthless killing of hundreds of innocents would put Indians ALL over the country at increased risk of minority and majority communalism is also conveniently ignored.

Sorry, I can`t confer this dynamic any legitimacy or rationality by calling it a backlash, when its nothing but the literal bestiality of vulture politicians feeding off dead bodies (Muslim and Hindu) to keep politically alive.

ylh #854
You havenot said what are you ranting about now?


scout #861
Thanks thats much clearer. The offensive comment I can see is the use of `stupid people` phrase. If thats the only sort of generalization that offends you on chowk, I must say you are very lucky. I suggest you cultivate a thicker skin and move on.

And maybe this comment is 20 years too early to be acceptable but it IS very stupid of a society, an army and a country put so much at stake in animosity towards another country which it knows nothing about. Is there a single institute or body in Pakistan devoted to studying India, its current affairs, its religions, its cultures in any authoritative way?

My personal observation on chowk and the famous Pakistani English press is that Pakistanis feel the need for a self-imposed ignorance about things Indian, because they think of India as a `Hindu` country and Hindus figure among the bugs and vermin(sorry PETA) in the Pakistani scheme of things.

hey hamdani did u go to the friends of israel thing ? how was it ? i wish i could have gone too a great oppurtunity to network

sridhar # 837

Here is the entire article.Read it and cry at your comprehension level.



[Polishing the country`s image

Hafizur Rahman

A recent report from Riyadh informed Pakistanis that two (more) of their compatriots had been sentenced to death by beheading in Saudi Arabia after they were caught peddling heroin. Despite the strict laws in that country, and their even stricter application, the hazards involved do not deter enterprising Pakistanis from ``Business as usual``. They are indeed a brave lot!

On the other hand, one of the most heartening stories I have read in the plethora of for-and-against on the referendum ten days away was circulated by a little-known news agency some time ago. It said, ``The government is giving serious thought to the restoration of Pakistan`s image in foreign countries.``

About time, I said to myself, that some attention was paid to restoring Pakistan`s image in the outside world. But somehow I don`t seem to recollect what the image was in olden times which has become soiled over the years and which the government is seriously considering to revive. And why consider the matter? Why not go ahead and do it? Giving thought implies that the government can also decide to leave the matter as it is. The establishment in Pakistan is a great one for the status quo.

As I have just said, before considering the ways and means, a few knowledgeable persons of advanced age (and good memory) should be asked to sit down and reduce to writing what the old image was. As far as I can recall, it was not very bright. The trouble with our image abroad is that we jumped straight from non-entity to notoriety, there was hardly any image, say, 40 years ago. Foreigners asked, ``Pakistan? Where is that?`` or they said, ``Ah, Pakistan. It`s in India, isn`t it?``

But we have come a long way since then and Paki is now a household word abroad. Its ignominy all the way I admit, mainly because of our expertise at drug trafficking. Though we bravely try to keep up our reputation in other murky fields as well. For instance, it is said that it was a Pakistani from Lahore`s Mochi Gate who first taught the famous London policeman what bribe meant.

Maybe the government has suddenly woken up (just as somebody told it one day about Daylight Saving Time) to the reality of our disreputable name abroad because of what the Jamaat-e-Islami boss Qazi Hussain Ahmed once bemoaned. He had disclosed that so far about 600 Pakistanis have been awarded the death penalty by beheading in Saudi Arabia because they were involved in the heroin trade. This was before he became enamoured of the Taliban and began to use all his energies to keep the US out of Afghanistan.

I remember him saying that it was a bad reflection on Pakistan that people ``holding the green passport`` should be treated as criminals. The situation must be rectified. Though he didn`t take the trouble of informing the nation how this was to be done. I also remember someone else explaining (I forget his name) that most of the Pakistanis arrested in Saudi Arabia were innocent as they were taken there by crooked travel agents on the pretext of providing them jobs. He didn`t say so but he probably meant that since no jobs were provided what else could these poor souls do but to take up the narcotic business for their bread? So what if they lost their heads in the bargain!

No one in the political and public life of Pakistan knows how Saudi Arabia can be asked to help, as a sincere friend and well-wisher, to reduce the disgrace falling on Pakistan because of the large number of our countrymen getting beheaded for smuggling heroin. Maybe Mian Nawaz Sharif, who is there as a guest, could assist his country. In order to neutralise him in the coming political dispensation General Pervez Musharraf could appoint him ambassador there.

One way for Mian Sahib to secure the Saudis` cooperation in this behalf could be to urge them to refrain, for the sake of the Ummah, from disclosing the nationality of our men sentenced to death. As an extraordinary gesture of friendship the convicted Pakistanis could also be described as Indian Hindus. This way we would be one up on Mr Advani`s Hindutva.

That would shift the calumny from us to India and bring our hostile neighbour into disrepute in the Middle East at least, thus killing (or shall we say beheading?) two birds with one stone. With all our sucking up to Saudi Arabia that should not too much to ask for and for Mian Sahib to achieve.

Coming to the actual process I wonder what the government can really do to restore the country`s image internationally, even if it is able to decide what the image was to which we are required to go back. I do hope it does not advise the people to give up drug smuggling. Ethics and morality apart, that would shatter our economy and badly damage our self-confidence. For it appears that this is the only thing we are good at.

The reason why so many of us get caught in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere is because (as that someone chap explained so ably) our boys are sent there for being gainfully employed, and when they are not provided with jobs they are obliged to take up the sale of drugs as an interim sideline. No sideliner can be really adept at this kind of work which needs expertise, and that is why they get arrested. This needs looking into. We must depute more experienced people for this dangerous duty. They must not lose their heads while they are at it.

Anyway it is not my responsibility as a columnist to define ways and means to bring back our good name to whatever point it was before it began to drop. I have never been abroad, and for all I know this bad reputation thing may be just hearsay, simply a rumour.

But whatever the government decides to do it must rope in Qazi Hussain Ahmed and other top religious leaders (who, with the decline of the Taliban, now have nothing to do) to give positive suggestions and not confine themselves to merely complaining. It is Qazi Sahib who pointed at the 600 Pakistani heads lost in Saudi Arabia and he must do his share of rectification. Before he raised the issue, all of us, including the government, were perfectly satisfied with our image.

If I were the government I would say to the people, ``You are responsible for the adverse publicity so you go and do whatever is to be done. All that the government can do is to enable as many Pakistanis, all with proper heads on their shoulders, to go to Saudi Arabia as we can in order to earn foreign exchange. It is up to them not to get beheaded.``

The writer is a freelance columnist]

re: dost-mittar # 847, YLH#810, tvarad#835

What has happened in the latest French elections should serve as a cautionary note to us. The time when each one of us could beat the drum of our own little communities in isolation from others is gone....the world has become interconnected as never before....it has become far more complex.

There is only one solution. We must recongize that ALL opportunisitc communalism - majority, and minority - is evil. If we don`t do that, we are all headed for some really hot waters. And that`s true not only in the subcontinent but in UK, Europe, and America as well.

Chinnai,kolkatta & Mumbai

It is time now for Bharata.

Food for thought for the starved of self-worth---the able & willing slaves of english.

__________________________________________________

Renaming India To Bharata Petition

USA, Feb 7 (VNN) — Petition to the Government of India to rename India to Bharata...

To the Government of India

The largest political, religious and military entity in South Asia is known internationally by the name of India. This was the name by which the entire region became known to the West. It is therefore consistent that it was the name given to the largest colony of the British Empire, until decolonisation from the middle of the last century. It is perhaps for this reason that one should reconsider the name by which this nation refers to itself. `India` conjures up images of colonial hangover, with its integral inferiority complex. It in no way suggests a nation asserting itself, a nation on the brink of stepping from the developing to developed world, a potential superpower in the forthcoming millennium. A name change will enhance this newly found self-confidence; announce to the global community a nation reviving its ancient spirit, and remove the inferiority complex from the mind of its citizens.

On becoming a republic in 1950, India chose for itself the Hindi name `Bharath` for private usage (adapted from one of the ancient kings of folk memory). The world continues to refer to Bharath as India. A name change to LBharataú the actual Sanskrit name of the ancient king would be in keeping with similar events elsewhere in the post-colonial world (Siam to Thailand, Ceylon to Sri Lanka, Rhodesia to Zimbabwe, Nyasaland to Malawi, Burma to Myanmar). India smacks of colonialism, a name foisted upon its unwilling inhabitants. The change to Bharata, a name by which the Bhartiyas have always known their land will change this, and greatly change the attitude of the global community in a more positive direction. Combined with the revival of Sanskrit as a national language, this will enhance its prestige among the international community. The example of Israel with Hebrew lies before us.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned

To sign the petition click here: http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?i2B&1

sadna #848,

sadna #744,

``Dear Pakis, you can`t fight your enemies the Indians effectively if you don`t know anything about them. There are no victories for those who fight stupid, however deep your wells of hatred, dear Pakis. Gunpowder is the more effective weapon for stupid people, I suggest you stick to what you know.``

i hope that cleared it up

The Post-1947 Brahmanist Order and its Ideological Foundation

by Dr. Singh



Hindu nationalism and the founding ideology of the post-1947 Poorbia Brahmanist Order are derived from

historical fraud spun by late 19th-20th century Brahmanist idealogues and organizations (e.g. Vivekananda,

Dayananda, Gowalker; Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj, Hindu-Maha-Saba, RSS, VHP, etc.) from the eastern

subcontinent. A new supremacist identity and history (neo-Brahmanism) was invented for the Brahmanist

community (the “twice born” Brahmin/Bania orthodox castes - 7% of ``Hindus``) by making wild, hegemonic

and fraudulent claims over the history, religions and civilizations of historically separate southasian regions,

nations and peoples. Under neo-Brahmanist ideology, all of southasia under British imperial rule was

fantasized as their 10,000 year old “One Hindu Nation`` (Hindusthan) in which the 7% Brahmanists, the

self-styled ``superior Aryans``, should be the ``rightful ruling class``.



With the westward expansion of the British Raj, historical propaganda and claims designed to float the

Brahmanists` One Hindu Nation ambitions (really a Poorbia Brahmanist fantasy of empire - ``Hindu, Hindi,

Hindustan``) were exported to newly annexed regions by Brahmanist ideologues, politicians, socio-political

organizations and schools during the late 19th and early 20th century (e.g. Arya Samaj founded in 1877, RSS

formed in 1925). The pre/post independence national politics of Brahmanist dominated political

organizations, regardless of party or political affiliation, is rooted in the historical consciousness and

hegemonic ``One Hindu Nation`` ideology and doctrines spawned by Neo-Brahmanism.



The post-1947 India Union is in reality a ``Casteocracy`` run by the supremacist Orthodox Brahmanical Castes

(OCs: Brahmins, Banias; 7% of ``Hindus``) or Brahmanists who came to hijack the largest chunk of the former

British Indian Empire in 1947. It has been cleverly run under the ruse of ``world`s biggest democracy`` for the

past 50 years. The supremacist and hegemonic minded Brahmanist cliques completely control the circles of

power and policy of the Indian state. Post 1947, almost all (95%) of the top decision-making and managerial

positions in the country`s administration, bureaucracy, state-run media, press, huge state-run economic

sector, universities, army, police, etc. were stacked by Brahmanists who form 7% of Hindus. Intriguingly,

Brahmanists did not have ruling class status or political dominance in any significant country/region of

southasia before the British began creating their empire (``India``) during the 19th century.



According to statistics published by reputed Indian journalist and historian Kushwant Singh, the Brahmins

alone (3.5% of ``Hindus``) control over 70% of the top decision-making and managerial posts of the Indian

State. In 1935, the 3.5% Brahmins held around 4% of the officer positions among Indians in the government.

By 1985, one finds that out of 3,300 Indian Administrative Officers (IAS), 2,376 are Brahmins; from the rank ofdeputy secretaries upwards, out of 500, 310 are Brahmins; of the 26 state chief secretaries, 19 are Brahmins;

of the 16 Supreme Court judges, 9 are Brahmins; of 438 district magistrates, 250 are Brahmins; and so on in

other circles of power and policy in the Indian state. Their state power jumps from 70% to over 90% upon

including the remaining ``twice born`` Brahmanists.



The facts show that the 7% Brahmanists monopolize the top positions of the Indian state and determine its

policies and actions (e.g. Swadeshi Permit Raj Economics, nuclear testing, police/army rule and oppression

in all majority non-Hindu states, systemic human right abuses of majority ``lower castes`` and minorities).

Under ``Permit Raj`` and ``Swadeshi`` economic policies, only the Brahmanist cliques have been allowed to

invest and enter the new modern and profitable industrial and manufacturing sectors while the rest of Indians

(93%) are tied to the plough, dwindling lands and the unskilled labor market. The country was converted into a

huge ``Brahmanist milking cow`` through Brahmanist monopoly over the corrupted, rent-seeking and

criminalized beaurocracy, political system and state-run industries while the wealth generated in the private

economy is cornered through Swadeshi Permit Raj Economics. Genocidal state terror and violence has been

unleashed on the populations of every non-Hindu majority state in the Indian Union (e.g. Kashmir, Punjab,

Assam, Manipur, Mizoland, Nagaland, etc.) and communal rioting against religious minorities is an integral

part of statecraft and politics by the Indian Government and Brahmanist-lead political parties (1984 Sikh

“riots”, Ayodhya, 1991Bombay Muslim “riots”, etc.). The Brahmanists’ despised majority (80%) ``lower castes``

and Dalits (untouchables) live under constant threat of random police/army violence and torture to keep them

under submission and to discourage them from mobilizing politically.



This is the true hideous, criminal and genocidal nature of the 50 year Casteocracy, imperialistically running

the old British empire and motivated by the hegemonic, supremacist and racist socio-political ideology of

neo-Brahmanism. Unfortunately, Western opinion on events in India has been largely shaped by the

viewpoint of Brahmanist propagandists who control the governmental machinery/political

system/academics/state-run mass media/press/etc. Brahmanists have been extremely effective in

propagating their historical and political mithya and propaganda and hiding, deflecting and scapegoating

India`s gruesome realities and the Brahmanist regime’s abysmal failures and tyranny on their victims, lower

castes and religious minorities. Brahmanist emigrees to the west have very zealously adopted the role of

“Indian Ambassadors” and guardians of the honor of their dishonorable Casteocracy and perpetually cover-up

its criminal, corrupted and genocidal nature and spread neo-Brahmanist doctrines and historical fraud to the

outside world.

Propagating the Fradulent ``Hindu`` Identity - the Chief Weapon of Poorbia Brahmanist Imperialism



The Brahmanists came to power on the Congress elephant by deviously converting the pre-independence

political debate and struggle into a communal Hindu-Muslim religious struggle and propagating their

fradulent ``Hindu`` identity/nationalism to construct their majority Hindu flock - naturally to be lead, lorded and

ruled by the ``superior`` 7% Brahmanists (i.e. the Brahmins/Banias clique)! This was made possible by the

master stroke of Mahatama Gandhi - the Hindu nationalist cum holy sadhu - who made ``Hindus`` a 55%

majority on paper in the 1920s upon getting the Dalits or ``untouchables`` (20%) dubbed as ``Hindus`` by the

British. This coup moved the ``Hindus`` from 35% to a 55% majority in British India. In pre-independence India, Muslims were 25%; Sikhs/Christians/Buddhists/tribals/etc. formed the remaining 20%.



This action, along with recognition of Congress as the sole political representative of all Indians in national

matters, was a payoff by the British colonial authorities to the Brahmanist lead Congress and Gandhi for loyal

services rendered to Queen and empire in supporting their WWI war effort; recruiting the ``martial``

communities (e.g. Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs, Gujars of Saka-origin) of the northwest and Muslims to go fight for the

British Empire in Europe/middle east; subduing, opposing, infiltrating and sabotaging other

non-Congress/non-Brahmanist lead political parties and independence movements organized at home (who

saw British weakness during the war as an ideal opportunity).



The 55% fraudulent ``Hindu pile`` was little more than a political game of Brahmanist politicians and political

parties in Delhi while orthodox caste Hindus (7%) would not eat/touch/marry/socialize or even worship with

their ``polluted`` Dalits (20% untouchables) in the 1920s. After this ``victory on paper``, Brahmanist politicians,

political parties, and organizations totally communalized pre-independence politics along ``Hindu/Muslim``

religious lines of ``nationhood`` to get on the road to empire and Delhi. Under the historical propaganda

campaign launched by Poorbia Brahmanist ideologues, organizations and schools since the late 19-20th

century (e.g. ``Arya`` Samaj, HinduMahaSaba, RSS, etc.), the majority Saka-Vedic people of the northwest has

been largely brainwashed into becoming the loyal and obedient inferior ``Hindu`` flock of their Brahmanist

(Brahmins, Banias - 7%) masters, overlords and ``Netajis``.



Ironically, despite all the Poorbia Brahmanist historical mithya and fantasy, the self-proclaimed ``highest

caste`` Brahmanists cannot name and date even one ruler of the northwest over its 3500 year known history

since the start of the Vedic period (1500 BC); in the 50 years since 1947, there have been 6 Brahmin Rulers!

Prior to annexation by the British in the 19th century, the Sakas had regained their historical power (500

BC-1200AD) and the entire northwest and west was under Saka rule and political domination: Sikhs (Lahore,

Patiala, Nabha, Kashmir), Jats (Bharatpur, Dholpur, Agra, Bhawalpur), Rajputs (Rajputana), Gujars (Gujarat,

western MP), Marathas (Maharashtra). Further, the terms ``Hindu`` and ``Hindusthan`` were first imposed on

southasian nations and regions by the Afghan dynasty of Ghori in the 12th century; these terms were never

used in southasia prior to the Muslim era and are not even found in early (pre-12th century AD) Brahmanical

or Buddhist texts. These terms and concepts have no ``historical depth`` in any social, religious, ethnic or

national sense past the 12th century when Mohammed Ghori for the first time named his conquered domains

in northern southasia ``Hindusthan`` and his subjects ``Hindus``.



What did Ghori`s ``Hindus`` call themselves prior to the 12th century? The chatur-varna ideology found in

gangetic Brahmanical texts only views society in terms of ``inferior and superior`` castes (jatis) with separate

religious, social and legal rights/privledges; there is no notion of a common religious community, nation or

people in Brahmanical holy texts! According to Brahmin Law Givers, the ``lower caste`` Sudras (80%) were ``too

polluted`` to be seen fit to even enter their temples, worship their devtas, and learn their religious scriptures.

Their holy texts repeatedly “forbid Brahmins” from travelling to the northwest Vedic-Saka country. The region

was independent from the rest of southasia over 90% of its 3500 year verifiable history and pursued its own

unique and separate ethnic, historical, political, religious, linguistic, and cultural evolution.

Rsaxena

``we`ve let nazis take over gujarat and b.c. our PM won`t let us...``

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/04/18/india.vajpayee/index.html

Vajpayee reveals his true colors

April 18, 2002 Posted: 10:08 AM EDT (1408 GMT)

Muslim protesters shout anti-government slogans as Vajpayee visits a Muslim refugee camp in Ahmadabad













By Mark Tully

(CNN) -- The communal violence in the western Indian state of Gujarat -- which is still continuing sporadically nearly eight weeks after it first broke out -- has cast doubts on the future of secularism in India.

Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, known to believe in moderation in politics, has now come out openly in support of the Hindu hardliners in his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).

These hardliners now seem determined to revive the campaign for a Hindu India.

Vajpayee has often been described as the mask, hiding the true nature of his Bharatiya Janata Party with its ambition to establish a Hindu India.

For four years as leader, he has held that mask firmly in place but last weekend the mask slipped, or more accurately, he threw it away.

There was nothing accidental about the hard-hitting speech he made at a rally during the party`s National Executive meeting in Goa.

Vajpayee maintained that wherever there were Muslims in the world there was strife and suggested that Hindus had the right to decide the freedom to be allowed to other religions.

``We have allowed Hindus and Muslims to say their prayers,`` the Indian leader said.

Support for Modi

CNN NewsPass VIDEO

Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee`s support of Gujarat administrator Narendra Modi may cause a governmental crisis. CNN`s Satinder Bindra reports.



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He backed his party`s support for Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, who has been widely criticized for failing to control the recent outbreak of Hindu-Muslim violence and to provide adequate relief for the displaced.

Gangs of Hindu rioters went on the rampage in Gujaray, killing hundreds of Muslims and razing buildings and homes in revenge attacks fuelled by the firebombing of a train carrying Hindu activists.

The activists were returning from a controversial site sacred to both Hindus and Muslims in the northern Indian town of Ayodhya.

They had been campaigning for the rebuilding of a Hindu temple on the site of a mosque torn down in 1992.

At least 59 Hindus were killed when several carriages of the train were torched on February 27.

That attack sparked the worst sectarian violence in India for more than a decade, leaving around 800 people dead and thousands homeless.

Vajpayee also backed the suggestion that Modi should dissolve the Gujarat State Assembly and go for an election.

The BJP clearly believes that the attacks on Muslims, the killings, the rape, the burning and the looting will be popular with the Hindu electorate in Gujarat, and wants to hold an election before the anti-Muslim sentiment subsides.

No option



Vajpayee is under pressure to dismiss Gujarat`s chief minister for failing to halt recent sectarian violence

In taking this stand, Vajpayee knew he was threatening the survival of his government, so why did he throw away his mask?

He had no option. Under his leadership the BJP has recently suffered a series of electoral disasters.

Just before Goa, it was humiliated in local body elections in Delhi, once its stronghold.

These defeats have revived the long-running dispute within the party.

On the one side, there have been those like Vajpayee who believe that an uncompromising Hindu agenda will never attract more than minority support.

On the other side, the ideologues maintain that the only purpose of the party is to promote what they call Hindutva, arguing that the party always becomes weaker when it abandons or waters down its Hindu agenda.

The evidence of recent elections left Vajpayee defenseless against the hardliners, so he had to back them when he faced his party in Goa.

Turning point?



Hindu men carry the body of riot victim in a procession in Ghodasar area of Ahmadabad

After Goa, Indians were asking whether this was a turning point in their history.

Has the country got its first Prime Minister who is prepared to be blatantly pro-Hindu? Is there going to be an election in Gujarat openly fought on communal lines?

If so and the BJP wins, will it decide to go it alone in other parts of the country fighting elections with campaigns which provoke hatred of Muslims?.

Ten years ago Indians were also asking whether the secularism which had been the guiding principle of the constitution since independence had gone for good.

The question was provoked by the destruction of the mosque in Ayodhya and the communal violence that erupted in its wake.

But secularism was restored and the Vajpayee line prevailed in the BJP.

Temporary phenomenon

So it`s tempting to forecast that Gujarat and its aftermath will also prove to be a temporary phenomenon.

Already Vajpayee is claiming to have been misunderstood, and if he is to hold his coalition together he can not allow the temperature to remain at fever level.

The BJP seems to be having second thoughts about holding an immediate election in Gujarat.

But even if the Cassandras are proved wrong that does not mean the wounds of Gujarat will heal.

Muslims` confidence in Indian secularism has been shaken again.

Until the majority of Hindus make it absolutely clear that they are determined to live up to the Indian tradition of equal respect for all religions, there will be no antidote to the communal poison being spread by some leaders of both communities.

Try coming to the `barbaric` Islamic world.. atleast one country called Pakistan you might actually find a tad bit more sophisticated than your mahatma-infested Hindu Fundamentalist ghetto.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

RE: Reply #: 845 ylh

````However, he left behind almost an equal number in India. So who exactly did he get ``self-determination``

Pakistan`s two wings had 33 Million and 45 Million Muslims respectively in 1947. That is 78 Million ... right? And the Muslims left behind in India were 27 to 28 million out of which approximately 6 to 7 million moved to pakistan...

Now by which Logic are 78 Million equal to 25 Million... Only Indian one I guess? Even today... do you forget that the total Populations of Pakistan and Bangladesh together are 270 Million approx? Out of which atleast 245 Million are Muslim... Are you going to say 245 Million are equal to 130 Million?``

I keep forgetting that it was the ``Two Nation Theory`` then as opposed to the ``Three Nation Theory`` post 1971 which I was going by which would make the West Pakistan and India Muslim populations almost equal, going by 1951 census figures. But you still haven`t answered my questions - where did the substantial number of Muslims left in India fit into Jinnah`s ``homeland for the Muslims of India``?

Dost Mittar,

Your argument would apply to the History of Partition .. if Muslim communalism had not been a reacton to the Majority communalism. The fact is that Mohammed Ali Jinnah, as Ambedkar puts it, embodied this transformation. His career needless to say represents the change from Hindu-Muslim Unity to Muslim separatism.

So it was `Majority communalism` which drove formerly non-communal elements into minority communalism. Your thesis is Untrue.. Minority communalism is never in a position to provoke Majority communalism. The triumph of minority communalism in form of Pakistan should then viewed as a triumph over the already existing Majority communalism, which was striving to free itself not just the British rule, but 600 years of Minority Rule.

This is Esoteric.. but I am sure you have the brains to understand what I am trying to say.

Scout,

A more appropriate question is.. have the `idiots` from our side (which might or might not include me) acquired this disease from their indian counterparts namely sadna ?

-YLH

``Not like another power hungry crook who ran away, founded a rogue country and is responsible for the genocide of millions of south asians.``

Ali2 I have asked you this question many times but you have refused answer. How was the man a power hungry crook, if all His opponents were willing to swear that there was NO politician more incorruptible than him in the Entire South Asia.

Secondly how was he responsible for the murder of so many south asians, if 90% of killing happened in East Punjab, and even the High commissioner from India Applauded Jinnah`s efforts to quell communal trouble. You will continue to repeat these lies ... so be it.

Ambedkar and Jinnah:

Two leaders with similar temperaments who fought for their communities. One who had the greater nationalist reputation ended up creating a country based on communal separatism (with good reason as I have shown)... he is now demonized in India, yet he has delivered 75% of his community and helped uplift millions of Muslims . I agree for one that I would never have been here had it not been for his action.

The other is Ambedkar... who stayed within in the fold of India, yet what is the situation with Dalits today. Active caste Hindu domination continues in every sector of Public and private life in India. The untouchables and the dalits are amongst the poorest and most backward communities today... a fate that would have been for Muslims. So Ambedkar secured greatness for him, and I respect him more than anyone else in India... but I respect Mohammed Ali Jinnah because he sacrificed his `apparent Greatness` for me.

Ambedkar says about Jinnah:

``Is it not a fact that under the Montagu-Chelmsford Reforms in most Provinces, if not in all, the Muslims, the Non-Brahmins and the Depressed Classes united together and worked the reforms as members of one team from 1920 to 1937 ? Herein lay the most fruitful method of achieving communal harmony among Hindus and Muslims and of destroying the danger of a Hindu Raj. Mr. Jinnah could have easily pursued this line. Nor was it difficult for Mr. Jinnah to succeed in it.

Indeed Mr. Jinnah is the one person who had all the chances of success on his side if he had tried to form such a united non-communal party. He has the ability to organize. He had the reputation of a nationalist. Even many Hindus who were opposed to the Congress would have flocked to him if he had only sent out a call for a united party of like-minded Hindus and Muslims`` (Chapter 13 must there be a Pakistan)

I agree to the extent that had Jinnah enlisted such a support (and in 1939 there was a chance when Ambedkar joined Jinnah in the day of deliverance) ... a Minorities League of Sorts would have defeated the Congress Party, and Jinnah would have become the No.1 Hero of India. Yet like I said before ... I wouldn`t be here. I would still be suffering under Hindu economic and social raj... My father would be some sort of a clerk and my mother would be a house wife... That would be the extent of our `social mobility`.

Jinnah Knew full well that by embracing the Pakistan demand, he would be branded as `communalist` a term he hated, a `bigot` another term he hated, a `disruptor` and all those things... yet for my sake he made Pakistan ... Why shouldn`t I respect him for that... Why should he be called power hungry when none of his actions indicate that?

Please end this nonsense now... Look at the real progress... look at the progress my family made because of partition... Today for every 10 Indians there are 4 Pakistanis in Colleges Abroad especially in the US... do you think Muslims in United India would have achieved a similar ratio?

Do you think there would half as many Muslim Entrepreneurs in Areas which constitute Pakistan had there still been a United India? Do you think there would be half as many Muslim doctors, lawyers, bankers, as there are today? Do you think there would be half as many Muslim Women doctors and lawyers? Partition might be described as communal, some might describe it as national, or irrational .. but no One can deny how far it went in uplifting the lives of the Muslims of the areas that now constitute Pakistan...

This is the difference... though both Jinnah and Ambedkar had similar concerns, but Jinnah is a demon and villian in the eyes of Indians, and Ambedkar is a Hero.. but Jinnah`s people have fared much better than Ambedkar`s...

-YLH

re:Reply #: 832

AUDIO-videO-radio,

``India`s religion was predominantly Budhism which was destroyed by Brahmins``.

Hello, which school you did you go to? I am sorry. Let me rephrase the question. Which Madrassa did you go to? No doubt one of those where you rock back and forth with Qoran in one hand and God know what, in the other. Perhaps excessive rocking back and forth has affected your intellect.

Buddhism was founded by Gautama Buddha in 7th century B.C. Lord Buddha himself was born a hindu. He tried to simplify the prevalent social customs. The religion had become too ritualistic.

Sanatana Dharma had existed for centuries prior to birth of Lord Buddha. You are no doubt ignorant of this fact as the history taught in Pak i am told starts with Md-bin-Qasim`s invasion of Sindh.

Sridhar