Deja Vu

re: Banjaara # 306

AAAAArrright! AAp se koi nahi jeet saktaa :)

It`s just that I have had pretty terrible experiences. Ofcourse, I know full well that it is silly to draw conclusions based merely on one`s personal encounters. And yes, aaap jaisa ek insaan is enough to make up for one`s many other less-than-satisfactory experiences.

Regards.

do me a favor rsax dont refer to me as dog again why did u do it in the first place?

re: fawadpig

{dude u outnumber us 5 to 1 what the f------ do you expcect????}

...if, as many of your countrymen believe, every paki soldier is worth 10 indian ones, then the 5 to 1 ratio is irrelevant, isn`t it?...

{....whats with this indian obsession with pakistani women? }

...this is a stupid myth shrinker parrots...his obsessions are his own...there is no indian obsession with pakistani women, who are no better or worse-looking than their eastern counterparts...there are enough of both running around in nyc to notice that...

Prem # 301

``, and my interactions with Pakistani mohajjirs have been, to put it mildly, disastrous: there was absolutely no willingness to interact as human beings.``

Arz kiya hai:

Palta jo teer kha ke kamiNgah ki taraf

apne hi dostoN se mulaqaat ho gaee

yaani ke ab ham `human being` bhi nahin:)

Pranaam.

raxcow:

dude u outnumber us 5 to 1 what the f------ do you expcect????

shankar:

i have met good looking indian women ....whats with this indian obsession with pakistani women? anyway no we dont keep them ``locked up``.....i know quite a few paki girls who dont like and date nonpaki guys.............me personally i like blondes:)

Romair,

#282

{{Let`s keep this discussion civil and un-emotional.}}

Welcome back, my friend!..dunno why..but I thought you were sulking a bit there, for a while.

As far as I`m concerned, I`ve always been civil to you. As for ``unemotional``..well thats a matter of opinion...I felt you were a tad too ``holier-than-thou`` in post 256 about Indian ``attitudes`` vs Pakistani ``attitudes``. Obviously, if you lob such sanctimonious stones at us, please dont live in a glass house, cos I`ll lob a few stones back at you. Too bad you dont appreciate my sarcastic sense of humor..I was just teasing you..its YOU that gets very emotional when Kashmir is debated!!

{{- Why would Indians throw tomatoes at you (as per your own admission, and easily seen on Chowk) for pointing out India`s human rights violations in Kashmir, while Pakistanis never throw tomatoes at me when I point out Pakistan`s mistakes in Bangladesh, or in Afghanistan, and other places (as seen on this board)?}}

Thats what I mean! You are suggesting that Pakistani posters on Chowk are MORE concious of human rights violations, MORE willing to admit their countries` mistakes than Indians on Chowk!

Yo! let me play the violin for you, cos I vehemently disagree & remember..you threw this stone first! If that aint being ``emotional``, I dont know what is?! Mind you, I dont object you saying that..but then if I come back with a few sarcastic zingers myself, kindly get yourself a thicker skin..!

Now let me answer that question directly:

a) I dont believe, even today, the Pakistani ``powers that be`` accept Bangladesh with ``wide open arms`` as you think...pl ref to my post 253 for details. Words are cheap, your govt`s actions (or lack of it) speak larger than words..

b)As far as Pakistani POSTERS.. I recall a guy called Omar 1974 (he made ylh look like a model of equinamity) getting into a very furious fight with a few Bangladeshis here. Heck he even threatened to SUE one of them!:)..cos one of the Generals (whose actions were questioned) happened to be his uncle!

He (& few other Pakistanis) called Mujibar a GADDAR, an Indian agent, who DESERVED to be killed. I was just a ``lurker`` at that time.

A few Pakistanis claimed vehemently that the human rights violations were a direct result of East Pakistani ``brutality`` towards the West Pakistani army!

I`ve heard claims from Pakistanis on Chowk that the refugee camps in India comprised mainly of the poor of Calcutta, who were looking for free food! And that the whole ``refugee crisis`` was false Indian ``propaganda``!!

Some claimed that the articles in reputable magazines like Time & Newsweek were unfair because the US media is dominated by zionists, who use every opportunity to discredit Islamic countries!

Now please dont tell me to ``prove`` that. I dont have the time, patience or the inclination to hunt through the archives of Chowk & ref you to those comments. You will have to take my word for it..you ``trust`` me, dont you?!:)

{{2- Do you agree that most Pakistanis on this site argue for self-determination of Kashmir (and not annexation to Pakistan), while most Indians on this site argue for annexation of Kashmir to India?}}

Gee..I dunno..OK..I`ll take your word for it..maybe we should ask the Chowk staff to take an ``opinion poll`` based on nationality!

{{3- Is their any contradiction in India assisting in supporting the Bangladeshi freedom struggle, while simultaneously suppressing the Kashmiri freedom struggle?}}

Personally, I DONT think there is a contradiction:

a)If Pakistan has a civil war in 71, India didnt have a right to directly interfere. But that civil war burdened India with untold number of refugees.. India is a poor country & we didnt have a sugar daddy like the US to ease our burden (unlike the US economic aid that poured into Pakistan when you were burdened with Afghan refugees).

If my neighbor has a family squabble, I should`nt interfere. But, if, as a result of that squabble, I get their garbage dumped on my doorstep & into my house..damn right..I`ll interfere.

So if Pakistan felt justified in fighting a covert war in Afghanistan, I dont think any Indian on Chowk objected to that. However, you think, that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan JUST as a first step in getting to Gwadar. Thats TOTAL bs..your friend Eric Mara-goli, notwithstanding.

b)Mujib WON an election..fair & square..W.Pakistan SPAT at the result. Kashmiri separatists consistently REFUSE to participate in the democratic process & boycott elections. YES YES, India is at fault for rigging elections. The only solution to inefficent, corrupt, bad democracy is MORE democracy! The mistake those separatists made was collude with Pakistan & start a terrorist war. So the analogy of Bangladesh vs Kashmir is more like an apple & an orange.

Mind you, I`m NOT condoning India. Time & again, I have criticised India for their high handed ,callous & evil behavior in Kashmir (Pakistan or no Pakistan). Its just that most Indians dont see it that way..& hence the rotten tomatoes.

As for Indian attitudes on Chowk. Have you read the responses of Indians about what is happening in Gujerat?! Even Indians who constantly feud with me ,like Saxena & Harimou, feel ashamed to call themselves Indians today, because of that ongoing tragedy. Many of them are seriously reconsidering their support for the BJP.

The reason I told you NOT to bring up Kashmir is that YOU get VERY emotional when that subject is bought up! At least admit that that issue is so close to your heart that its impossible for you to be balanced & objective in that area.

{{4- Why do Indians hate Jinnah so much? Is it primarily because he created Pakistan? Once again, if that is the reason, then why did India support Mujib when he created Bangladesh?}}

Personally, I think its the Indian ``version`` of history. Maybe its distorted, I`m willing to concede that. I think the movie ``Gandhi`` summed up India`s impression of Jinnah, when he said ``either you give us Pakistan or face civil war!`` Now, I grant you, my opinion of Jinnah has changed considerably after coming to Chowk (thankyou, ylh).

I`m not an ``expert`` in history..so I wont get into this debate whether the TNT was right or not. All I`m saying is that right, wrong or indifferent, if Kashmir becomes ``free`` , it will be at a terrible cost..over the dead bodies of countless more people. Its a shame, I agree & I feel it would require a great change in the attitude of Indians.

At the same time, it will also require a fundamental change in the attitudes of the Kashmiri separatists. I believe if they fight using Gandhi`s principles of non-violent satyagraha..they WILL prevail. This, evidently, is where you & I diasgree. You believe satyagraha is an ineffective tool, in general, & that the separatists have already tried it & failed. I dont. Lets just agree to disagree on this.

{{5- And most importantly, do Indians believe that the breakup of the Sub-Continent in 47, and the subsequent creation of Pakistan was correct, i.e. do they feel that Pakistan should have been created, or not created?}}

If the breakup took place without any bloodshed, it would have been correct,. I believe Jinnah SINCERELY did NOT want a violent & murderous break-up. Alas, it was not to be, cos the common mentality of our people is too prejudiced & violent. I blame ALL the religious groups for that tragedy.

It isnt possible to separate the creation of Pakistan from the tragedy that took place at Partition. Those two events are too closely related. If Pakistan still insists that the ``business of Partition is unfinished``..then the potential repercussions are going to be very dangerous & tragic. Once a tragedy HAPPENS (esp when both countries have nuclear weapons), its pointless to argue (even with 20-20 hindsight), who was MORE at fault!

So, when Vajpayee paid respects at the Minar-e-Pakistan(?)...it was very symbolic..it meant India has accepted the creation of Pakistan. It could have been a watershed in our relations.

Please forgive us if, today, we dont jump up & down & say ``come here, Pakistan, we`ve accepted your creation...let me give you a biiiig hug!``...esp when some Einsteins in Pakistan decided that Kargil was a fitting answer to Vaju`s gesture. If you guys had ``issues`` about Siachen, we could have ironed that out peacefully. Any ``trust`` that came out of that visit bit the dust...dont blame INDIA for that ``brilliant strategy ``, by your world famous military!

Cheers

harpreet

“I could feel the pain in your post about your ancestral village. So you are a Jullundari just like me. I hope one day if you feel the desire, you get the chance to see your ancestral village in India.”

….both my mom and dad’s parents migrated from jullunder in’47….a place called nizampura….my nana (mom’s dad) was in the police and for most of their married life in india, posted in shimla….my grandma still has really fond memories of that place….esp. the weather and the ubiquitous monkeys that would invade their yard and run off with food….both these places are on the top of my list of places to visit in india…

re: Stuka # 296

``1- Why would Indians throw tomatoes at you (as per your own admission, and easily seen on Chowk) for pointing out India`s human rights violations in Kashmir, while Pakistanis never throw tomatoes at me when I point out Pakistan`s mistakes in Bangladesh, or in Afghanistan, and other places (as seen on this board)?``

Let`s hope Romair is able to accept your far more patient explanations. To the best of my knowledge:

1. Pakistani people have NEVER supported an ongoing insurrection against Pakistan (I wouldn`t expect them to). In fact, Pakistan, like India, has accumulated a brutal history...So much so, that Pakistanis could not accept even Jinnah Pur, an idea, I thought all patriotic Pakistanis would happily embrace.

2. Romair`s advocacy of ``independence`` for Kashmir (not clear if it is only Indian-occupied Kashmir he wants to make independent, or also Pakistan-occupied and China-gifted ones) is a bit disingenuous. The vast majority of Pakistani people has never supported the idea of Kashmiri independence. Remember, nothing prevents romair from convincing his former employers to grant complete independnece to Kashmir they have illegally occupied. Yet, we are not privy to any long letters romair is writing to his former employers making such a case.

Again, I wouldn`t expect him to do any such thing. For too long have both Indians and Pakistanis been spoon-fed the theory that Kashmir is an integral part of their nationhood. The difference between all but the most extreme Indians and romair`s brothers-in-thought is that Indians are willing, if not very happily, to let Pakistan-occupied Kashmir go, while romair-brotherhood is unable to do the same with India-occupied Kashmir. From the point of view of India, there is no way to tell whether this sudden and very recent Pakistani ``conversion`` to the creed of Kashmiri independence is genuine or not.

Kashmiris are no doubt suffering while we two ``big`` cats fight and throw our weights around (may be that is what gives meaning to our lives, since nothing else is going right for us). But any notion of Kashmiri independence - in which I include the independnece of all three kashmirs - will remain an absurdity until and unless Pakistan, India, and China begin to trust one another.

That is the reality. We can try and live in peace, and give Kashmiris a chance to manage their lives as well. There can be no guarantee that elections in Indian-occupied Kashmir will no more be rigged (a common justification offered by some for their support of murderous crimes in India) until India and Pakistan fix our own elections elsewhere, including, ofcourse, in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. I mean, if we are thieves everywhere else, we will be thieves in Kashmir too. However, if despite all this, we want to keep fighting because we believe we are locked in some existential death war, we certainly can. Nobody can stop a people from destroying themselves further.

Basically, Indian message to romair and his former employers should be this: Please forget about ``outsmarting`` us. That is NOT the way to build trust. Please understand that we Indians and Pakistanis are two equally irrational people. And, the only way for two irrational nuts to thrive next to each other is to follow the very rational policy of live and let live.

Today or tomorrow, this realization will dawn upon even the most irrational.

re: UP # 296

``The UPite tends to be slow to anger, but yes, their hatreds last longer. I think the UPite also tends to hide their hatred better.``

I agree. I think, our punjabi friends - Tahmed321 and Harpreet - have been much too kind to us. Only this hatred is pretty evident. It becomes clearer in the US. UPite Hindus and UPite Muslims are the only groups who can`t seem to get along, who are always looking to create some mythical body of Pan-Hindu or Pan-Islamic warriors to take on the ``unjust`` world - a sure sign of premature senility brought on by deep-seated, even unconscious, religious hatred. Most VHP types I have met have been UPites, and my interactions with Pakistani mohajjirs have been, to put it mildly, disastrous: there was absolutely no willingness to interact as human beings.

(I know, I know ...I am generalizing on a grandscale, but what is life without some hyperbole, some generalization here and there, specially against oneself? But this does NOT give others an open license to start attacking us :))

re: AAmir # 297

But it is not just UP Muslims who are/have been compulsively communal, it is Hindus too.. There is something in the bread that we eat. An extra communal protein, or an absence of proteins and vitamins necessary for the development of the human brain. We feed on fear. Fear and foolishness go hand in hand.

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Romair: I`ll take the liberty...

``1- Why would Indians throw tomatoes at you (as per your own admission, and easily seen on Chowk) for pointing out India`s human rights violations in Kashmir, while Pakistanis never throw tomatoes at me when I point out Pakistan`s mistakes in Bangladesh, or in Afghanistan, and other places (as seen on this board)?``

The Pakistanis too would have thrown tomatoes at you, or thrown you in jail or worse if you had pointed out Pakistan`s mistakes in East Pakistan in 1970. It`s easy to point out mistakes once the deed is done. If by some miracle, u guys manage to wrest Kashmir from us, maybe future generations of Indians will be more understanding about the ``mistakes`` we made. Also, ask any reasonably educated Indian about human rights violations, they will agree with you. But, the extent of violationsd, that is very much under dispute. I for example KNOW that there is no Rapefest going on in the valley. Do rapes occur? Yes. Are they common and widespread? NO. So, it`s not as black and white as you make it seem.

``2- Do you agree that most Pakistanis on this site argue for self-determination of Kashmir (and not annexation to Pakistan), while most Indians on this site argue for annexation of Kashmir to India?``

Depends on which Kashmir you are talking about. I don`t think most Pakistanis (even on Chowk) are too keen on self determination of Pakistani Kashmiris. Ask how many or your people would be agreeable to letting Mirpur, Baltistan, Gigit etc go as an independant state. You guys will probably be happy if Indian Kashmir gets self determination. So what? You don`t have anything to lose on that. Also, most Indians, on Chowk as well as outside, are NOT interested in annexing the Kashmir that u guys have. If you want to make the LOC as the border, we will jump at the chance. Regarding Indian Kashmir, how the hell can we annex something that we already have?

3- Is their any contradiction in India assisting in supporting the Bangladeshi freedom struggle, while simultaneously suppressing the Kashmiri freedom struggle?

In a pragmatic sense, the contradiction lies in percieved national interest. I say percieved, because the Morarji Desai school of thought says that East Pakistan should have been kept on slow boil, but we should never have left Bangladesh become independant. This would have kept the Paki army busy fighting internal wars, allowing us to keep Kashmir at peace. However, the school of thought that dominated at the time was one which advocated supporting Bangladeshi independence.

Currently, there is no school of thought in India which believes that giving Kashmir independence is in India`s national interest.

4- Why do Indians hate Jinnah so much? Is it primarily because he created Pakistan? Once again, if that is the reason, then why did India support Mujib when he created Bangladesh?

Again, one`s action`s were beneficial to India, the other`s were not.

5- And most importantly, do Indians believe that the breakup of the Sub-Continent in 47, and the subsequent creation of Pakistan was correct, i.e. do they feel that Pakistan should have been created, or not created?

That is a tough one. I think some Indian Hindus feel the loss of the land but don`t feel the loss of the people. Pretty blunt, but IMO this is certainly true of some Indian Hindus. Though again, when you see a cricket match in Sharjah, and you see all these gorgeous, completely ravishing chic Pakistani women with their beautiful scarves and fancy earrings sitting next to Indian women who are ..well...lemme just say...God!! then you miss the Pakistani people...but then you see Imzamam Ul Haq waddling away and u kinda don`t miss the people...etc etc.;) Kidding.

Indian Muslims universally feel that partition was bad, but then I am sure you find that understandable. They came out as the big losers in the process.

There is

however, a substantial number of Indian Hindus who genuinely believe that Hindus and Muslims can live together, and therefore partition was unnecessary. You may find this hard to believe, but I sincerely believe that this portion is India`s ``silent majority``.

However, there is a HUGE difference in saying ``Partition should not have happened`` and ``Let`s go and capture Pakistan now``. We may believe the former, but not the latter. Keep what you have, we keep what we have, and we will live in peace. Try to take what we have, and there is no option but to fight. Simple, see. Like most things in life... :)

Prem

``My tentative theory that says that UPites tend to be much more dedicated, and much more implacable, religious fanatics and hateful bigots, than average Punjabis. ``

Yeah, I think I agree with you. Punjabis tend to be emotional people. They will hug you and call you a brother one day, but be roused to fury another. The Punjabi temper comes and goes.

The UPite tends to be slow to anger, but yes, their hatreds last longer. I think the UPite also tends to hide their hatred better.

tahmed;

Lets hope your father makes it to East Punjab one day.

Prem;

I dont know if you can say Punjabis are less fanatical than UPites. I think everyone has their bad apples.

Shankar;

You are right. Compared to how much Pakistanis seem to know about India, most Hindustanis are very ignorant of the country to the West. However, in my experience, because of language and history, many East Punjabis are quite knowledgable about Pakistan. But they are more likely the exception to the rule.

-h-