Drawing Palestine

sigh..
i am reading about Arab al Andalus and the sepahardic jews..and the Golden Age of Judaism.. The Golden Age of Jews.. not A.. being wherever the muslims were ruling ..sigh..what a fall..
read.:
http://www.kabbalahsociety.org/papers/halevi1.htm#Three Cultures
do see the revival of hebrew poetry under Arab infleunce. and many other cultural and scientific acheivements.
1492 changed all that..their catholic majesties.. expelled all the Jews and killed/converted all the Arabs/Moors..
thinsgwere nevrthe sa e again..and the Convivencia/ coexistence.. ornanament of the world..lived on it bits and pieces in Muslim- jewish Morocco and Cochin..
sigh..what a fall..butthen colonialism did that.. to historically harmonious communities..1947 in our part of the world.. imagine.. breakig up a subcontinent..
Peace

I qoute from the above site:
Here the Arabs and the Jews shared the same, almost obsession, to relate Hellenic reason to their respective scriptures. The discovery of Aristotle’s method of logic, the intellectual contemplations of Plato and later Pagan thinkers excited the quick Semitic minds of Arabs and Jews. To bring the ``two truths`` of Reason and Revelation together so as to prove their mutual veracity became a major occupation.
Many Christians from Western Europe came to study in Spain when they heard what intellectual activity was going on there. Toledo in particular became an important centre of meeting of the three faiths, where scholars and mystics could freely discuss the ``New Learning,`` as it was called. It was here that the West’s Renaissance began in the early Middle Ages as ancient and contemporary works were translated from the Arabic, usually by Jews, into Latin and other Western languages.

Alongside the interaction between the Spanish and foreign intelligentsia was the Moorish influence upon European attitudes and customs. In Arab poetry, women were treated with great gentility and put on a pedestal. Romantic love and courtly behaviour enhanced a Moorish warrior’s image
The Universities of Andalusia were the best in Western Europe that was still in its Dark Age. There were professors and departments of every known subject from theology to mechanics. Among these were Astronomy, which also meant Astrology. This had been developed far beyond the Babylonian and Greek stages, as Arabs and Jews mapped the sky.
After 1492 and the expulsion of the Jews, and later the Moors, two vital factors in the nation’s life, Spain began to decline despite the illusion of great wealth and power bought by gold from the New World. Gone was the cultural interaction as the Inquisition made sure that Jewish and Moorish conversos, those who stayed and converted, became good Catholics. Spain is today, 500 years after 1492, just beginning to recognize her lost heritage.
-- some more:
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/lobby/2679/alandalu_english.htm
Arab rule brought a time of flowering for Spanish Jewry. Andalusian culture and power was represented by the caliph Abd ar-Rahman III, who made Cordova the cultural capital of the West. It was a Golden Age for the Jews; they learned Arabic and built prosperous communities in Seville, Granada and Cordova, the capital. Under the Caliphate, the Jews were able to preserve their rites and traditions. Peaceful coexistence led to their economic and social flourishing. Bit by bit they began to acquire positions of importance in the Caliphate administration and also stood out as skilful craftsmen. They played a role in the caravans which moved across Al-Andalus` main routes and cities, with skins, cloth and jewellery as their main products. The Jewish community of Cordova enjoyed extraordinary growth under the protection of Abd ar-Rahman III, counting on royal support for their relations with the State.

Oooops that last post wasn`t for this board..

Anyway..

Well anyway.. let me take this opportunity to clarify another misgiving. I wonder, why must all people on these boards assume that if I vehemently oppose some thing I want them banned...

Like I have said before, pseudos like Rehan Ansari are a necessity for any society to learn from .. to learn what not to be. I stand for complete freedom of speech, even if it is left wing-wannabe drivel. And in the `New Pakistan` I would gladly die protecting Rehan`s right to write, even if I personally want to take his writing and use it as toilet paper.

-YLH

Samina Shah,

If you honestly think that people like Rsaxena, whose only contribution to these boards has been insults and more insults is some how more annoying than me, who has always only retaliated... then so be it. It shows your skewed judgement and your personal imbalance. I can`t say anything further on this topic.

I know I must be very annoying constantly holding up the light of truth, fighting the age old stereotypes, and taking on sacred cows like Gandhi with facts. Truth often is a bitter pill to swallow. Even for the so called `Intellectuals`.

-YLH

Questions for the Anti-Zionists on these boards:

During the Israeli siege of Arafat`s compound 30 Human rights activists became Arafat`s human shielf out of their own will...

How many of them do you think were Israeli citizens and jews?

-YLH

PS Hopefuly the answer to that very important question will lay to rest the venomous snakes of hate biting each other in your minds.

Zionism = Realistic Humanism

Long Live Israel.

Ana,

I would have read your long posts to me but after reading this nonsensical, mischievious sentence, I decided against it:

you say:

``before I get yet another gentle reprimand..it`s not that I take YLH ever so seriously, but hey, words are powerful things``

Obviously you chose to just parrot anNy on this one. I am sorry, but if you guys don`t take me so seriously, there is no point in continuing with so many posts. Its amazing, when you don`t have a credible argument how amazingly people like you love to discredit others by making such condescending and air headed statements.

I am sorry, I cannot in good conscience continue to argue with a person who resorts to such devices. Hence as a matter of principle, I will not read the rest of this post, and the other post.. And frankly if you wish to continue to use such condescending, self righteous and stupid tenor, then I must request that you spare me your drivel.

Maybe just maybe you thought that attacking me was kosher, because I attack everyone.. well just maybe you will go back , read my posts and hopefuly realize that I haven`t till this point sent out any `insults` towards you. I have a very simple principle: Insult those in equal and even more forceful way than those who insult you.

Since you clearly couldn`t win the argument, you have resorted to insults, and I can not restrain myself any further... So instead of insulting yet another person for whom I had respect previously, I am leaving this thread.

-YLH

Okay, okay..before I get yet another gentle reprimand..it`s not that I take YLH ever so seriously, but hey, words are powerful things..and, and hai hai, the girl can`t help it! Perhaps I should just take my `jaam` and invoke one of my favorites of Insha: `Inshaji utho, ab kooch karo/ Iss shehar main dil ko lagana kya.`

But before I do that:

Samina..hey, thanks for the encouragement. Like you said once (often, i`m sure) `sistahood is powerful` Khuda na khaasta the encouraging of each other should be classified as `mob mentality`! I was wondering though, i`ve seen you post your email address a coupla times, would you mind if I got in touch with you?

YLH...

You continue to outdo yourself. There is simply no denying that. I acknowledge that you have said some very intelligent things, and I applaud your desire for a modern, secular, democratic and progressive Pakistan, because that is what I have wanted for practically all of my life, but there are other things you`ve said that seem to have come out of somewhere other than your mouth (or in this case, your fingers on the keyboard).

Comparing Kashmir to Palestine may be outrageous, and I should point out that you were the one who asked us why we couldn`t be as concerned (or more) about the Kashmiris than the Palestinians. Unless you are Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, I suggest you think about that before you tell us us purely pathetic, emotional women off about having mentioned both cases in the same email. There has never been a doubt in my mind that humanistic and democratic Jews live in Israel. The fact that millions of them came out in Israel for a peace march is incredible, it`s great! But on the other side of the coin, the reactionary right-wing elements of the government would like nothing more than to push all the Palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza.

You talk about people being killed on the Sabbath, but we also know that Muslims were killed while praying in a mosque. Suffering is everywhere in Israel and Palestine right now. I went to an Israel-Palestine forum last night, and heard and felt the pain being expressed from both sides. One of the Palestinians told the story of how in 1953, in his home, Israeli settlers came in, created a partition in his home, and told his parents that they would be happy to live like this until his family decided to leave. In their home where they had been for years, pre-1948. Is this what a truly humanistic, democratic government and people allow to happen? I wonder. And there are countless Jewish stories, people who live their lives in fear. Neither side feels safe. And I suspect they are not going to until Israel relinquishes its illegal claim and occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. You claim racism on the part of the Indians, and the Palestinians but deny the anti-Arabism, yet another form of racism on the part of certain Jews? This is truly rich.

How I wished last night, and all day today, that there could be forums on Kashmir. Indians, Kashmiris, Pakistanis getting together and talking about the countless issues at hand. Not government sponsored forums, but us..the people who never get asked what we think. We are asked to put our trust and our faith in our leaders, and time and time again that faith is put to the test. What would happen if things did happen at the grass-roots level? I suspect our governments wouldn`t be interested, and couldn`t care less.

But I digress..why should my emotional blather hold any charm for you, who so rationally state that an attack on the Indian army camp is a victory for the war on terror?

I wish I could be more like Rehan, or some of the others on this board, because they don`t fight back, or try to argue with you..perhaps they couldn`t give a crap about what you think of them. And I really don`t give a crap if you think my responses are emotional, or if you think that I`m either an intellectual fascist or wannabe (which way will the pendulum swing tomorrow???). I`m glad that you`re a Pakistani first..and you say Pakistan first. Mubarak ho! Myself, I`m a woman, a Christian, and then a Pakistani. And I will always be a Pakistani, no matter where I am. And there are many Christian Pakistanis, like myself, who will continue to maintain their ties to a land where they have been described as chooras, where they have been killed, where their homes have been destroyed and their churches burned down, ties because Pakistan is their home too, their families have been there for generations and generations. Am I getting too emotional for you? Why indeed would a modern, secular democratic and progressive Pakistan have no charm for me, a place where more than just those Christians in the army, and a few civilians could benefit?

Before you tag me as an intellectual fascist or wannabe any further, Mr. Hamdani, if I could just indulge the board`s patience, and make one thing clear to you. I do not now, nor have I ever considered myself to be an intellectual. I see nothing wrong with being one, but the honest truth is, I am not. I am just someone who has an open mind, who is interested from learning from everyone, and who feels free enough to have a voice to say what is on her mind. I don`t have to explain myself to you, or to anyone on this board or outside of it, but there it is. You seem to have a particular definition of what an intellectual is, and clearly Rehan Hasan Ansari doesn`t fit it. I can`t speak for my friend, but I imagine he must be simply crushed and at the end of his rope!!! I don`t think he will stop expressing his views, `pathetically immature` as you deem them to be, nor will you, `pathetically immature` as they appear to be. Afterall, wouldn`t this be the case in this `New Pakistan`..this modern, secular democratic and yes, let us always remember progressive Pakistan you envision?

Chowk is not limited to `intellectuals` of your calibre, either. Clearly this has been proved by so many of us who have expressed our views, bigoted, or progressive. None of us are going away..well actually I did, but I came back, and I came back to the same uncivility I had left behind. I guess Chowk is just a microcosm of our societies, and badtameezi and badmaashi will continue to prevail...indeed, this is progressiveness! Carry on!

1) First of all My flight is all set for 31st so thankyou very much.. I am going back to Lahore, and yes I am better than all of you.

2) `when you grow up`... typical condescending drivel from someone ready to concede the argument.

3) `South asian communities`... Like I have said before.. South Asia, beyond an imagined history and imagined identity, means nothing to me. Infact South Asians developing politically and creating a caucus in the Congress will mean more endorsement for Indian aggression in the Congress, and more denounciation of Pakistan. Pakistani community needs to go at it alone.

4) `rancor for india`... yes I do, but Israel is not the one shelling our borders, India is. So my `secular-centric` rancor for India is more justified than the Islamocentric rancor for Israel. One is real, the other is imagined.

5) Washington March, of which you were an advertiser on these boards, was full of hate filled rhetoric against Jews and Zionism. By association.. well lets not say any further.. I don`t want to offend you.

6) I am glad that you have informed me of your academic schedule... but to what end? I am confused.

7) `Pakistanis first` is `Humans first`. Remember the United Nations chose to call itself `United Nations` and not the `United World` or `United Humanity`. Unity in diversity... Because I am a human first, hence I am a Pakistani.. and if I am not mistaken you have stolen my words ... I had already said, I was a Human First, then a Pakistani and then anything else.

Hope you are gagging on my realism.

Ylh,

Now you are truly caught.

re: ``...if that were the slogan... how would you get a chance to block traffic in Washington, and scream `jews are evil`?...``



Pray tell, who among us has EVER written or said that? I evoke Hamid the Great who points out that we are the unpopular lone voices at biriyani dawats who maintain that everything is not a Muslim-Jewish Manichean struggle of Good vs Evil. But I guess this is your shot after my Central Asian remark.

But ylh, you do seem to hold an equivalent rancor for India that most Islamocentric people hold for Israel and the US.

And continue to insist that you are a better person than all of us for wanting to return to Lahore (will SOMEONE give this kid a job so he`ll shut up already?), and pretty much you have been respected for that. When you grow up, you`ll realize that a lot of work needs to be done here as well with the South Asian communities developing here politically, socially and economically, in our working class communities and in the universities that serve them and other diverse communities. I just finished a semester in which I took four pretty freaking intellectually rigorous classes (why? Because non traditional working class, immigrant students get worked harder and work harder to dispel any notion that a Columbia Universityite knows more than we do).

I taught two remedial college English composition courses (which is more challenging than any lit course you will ever teach)to a classroom of students from Kerala, Southern China, the Dominican Republic, Russia, Ghana, Ireland, Albania and Puerto Rico; some single young adult mothers. So how am I not working to improve the world around me?

You may say ``Pakistan first!``, but I say ``Humans First!``

Hope youre gagging on my goodygoodiness...

PLO warns of more suicide attacks

BEIRUT, May 17: A new wave of suicide bombings will hit Israel if the Jewish state does not withdraw from Palestinian territory, the Palestine Liberation Organization`s (PLO) political chief said on Friday.

``If Israel does not withdraw from the Palestinian territories, the martyr operations will resume as well as other types of operations,`` said Faruq Qaddumi, a noted hardliner and a founding member of Yasser Arafat`s Fatah movement.

He did not say what sort of withdrawal he was referring to - a pullback to positions before the West Bank invasion that began on March 29, to lines before the Palestinian uprising began in September 2000 or to Israel`s borders before the 1967 Middle East war.

His comments flew in the face of recent statements by Arafat denouncing attacks on Israel. Arafat publicly spoke out against ``attacks`` on Israeli civilians following a May 7, suicide bombing in Israel that left 17 dead and 55 injured.

Last Saturday, the leaders of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria met at the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh and denounced all ``forms of violence``, in a nod to Israel`s fears of Palestinian attacks against its civilians.

Qaddumi was to represent the Palestinian Authority and PLO at an Arab League committee meeting here Saturday on the Saudi peace plan adopted by the 22-member pan-Arab organization at its March summit in Beirut.-AFP

Just read the news that the Pakistani ambassador has been expelled from India....i hope (hopefully not in vain) that more madness will not follow. The people of Kashmir have suffered enough. Pakistanis and Indians have suffered through multiple wars. How much more desolation and destruction can Kashmiris bear as a people? And if both governments truly had the welfare of the Kashmiris in mind, they would both stop using it as a killing field, and desist from supporting murderous attacks such as those of recent days.

In my research on Kashmir for my paper last quarter, I came across an article by, I think his name is Sumantra Bose, and he offered an interesting solution to the conflict..using the different `strands` of the Northern Ireland peace process. I don`t know if that`s entirely workable but it was an effort all the same, an effort towards a non-violent solution that could benefit everyone,especially the Kashmiris, but also the Indians and Pakistanis. Of course there would be resistance to a Western modelled peace process, but if we could just find creative long-term solutions of our own...there`s nothing creative about the taking of lives, and end the continual political bullying, and demonization of each other`s governments and people.

scout #27: you`re right about that. and i don`t know what the wow meant, but thanks :)

Fawad: no, not all Palestinians are angels, nor are they all demons, but then the same applies to all of us, no?

``wow!``

``right on ana.``

``Keep it up``

``we intelligent women...``

Mob mentality????

Fawad mian,

The more I visit these boards and interact with likes of ana, saminashah, and others, the more I realize how accurate the vision of Ayn Rand was, and how right she was about the Modern day `Intellectual` wannabes.. I have been studying the life and times of Ayn Rand, and the more I read about her, the more I understand how pathetically immature our common detractors are.. the likes of this pseudo-intellectual Rehan Hassan Ansari... I suggest to understand these people and their `calibre` better read the book :

`For the New Intellectual: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand` Penguin 1961

What you have articulated is simply undeniable. The responses actually confirm that. Samina Shah`s response to you was PATHETIC. Anna`s response was typical emotionalism .. `you can`t equate terrorism with Palestinian cause` line...

yet while all these people cry for Jenin, why is it that no a whimper is heard of the plight of those poor jewish people who died on Sabbath? Poor jewish people whose only fault was that they were in a public place practising their religion?

Ana, Samina Shah etc

To compare Kashmir to Palestine is outrageous. Unlike the Kashmiris, Palestinians are faced with one of most humanistic and democratic people. Kashmiris on the other hand are being butchered by the savage flag bearers of Hindu Fascism and racism. Infact, since no civilians were targetted, I consider the brave and bold attack on Indian Army camp, to be a Major victory for the war on terror. Why should we equate the deaths of Indian Military terrorists with the deaths of innocent jewish people?

In any event, I am accused of hurling insults, yet, amazingly the only one being cursed at here as the `immature kid from NJ` (well thats gonna change since I am moving back to Lahore) etc.. And even though I have remained most respectful with those who HAVE remained respectful with me, I must admit that yes I do hurl insults at those who hurl insults at me.

And believe me ... I know quite well that my values, opinions and aspirations are not shared by you, and the likes of you... Why would a Modern secular democratic and progressive Pakistan, maintaining its dignity through self preservation, and rational self interest be of any charm to you... i mean come on.. it is not in the news is it? Why must my slogan of `Pakistan first` interest any one of you... how would you hold your rallies in your dinky little universities in the United States of America, if that were the slogan... how would you get a chance to block traffic in Washington, and scream `jews are evil`?

Well Pakistan does come first! and nothing you can say or do will change my mind.

ana #31,

wow

Fawad79

Dude, I`m not arguing with someone who cannot spell ``Palestinian``. `kay?

Right on, Ana!

ana #22 ``the elders can learn from the young``

At 16 I used to know everything. At 25 I wasnt too sure. Now I know that I know nothing. (My deep thought for the day).