Drawing Palestine

sigh..
i am reading about Arab al Andalus and the sepahardic jews..and the Golden Age of Judaism.. The Golden Age of Jews.. not A.. being wherever the muslims were ruling ..sigh..what a fall..
read.:
http://www.kabbalahsociety.org/papers/halevi1.htm#Three Cultures
do see the revival of hebrew poetry under Arab infleunce. and many other cultural and scientific acheivements.
1492 changed all that..their catholic majesties.. expelled all the Jews and killed/converted all the Arabs/Moors..
thinsgwere nevrthe sa e again..and the Convivencia/ coexistence.. ornanament of the world..lived on it bits and pieces in Muslim- jewish Morocco and Cochin..
sigh..what a fall..butthen colonialism did that.. to historically harmonious communities..1947 in our part of the world.. imagine.. breakig up a subcontinent..
Peace

I qoute from the above site:
Here the Arabs and the Jews shared the same, almost obsession, to relate Hellenic reason to their respective scriptures. The discovery of Aristotle’s method of logic, the intellectual contemplations of Plato and later Pagan thinkers excited the quick Semitic minds of Arabs and Jews. To bring the ``two truths`` of Reason and Revelation together so as to prove their mutual veracity became a major occupation.
Many Christians from Western Europe came to study in Spain when they heard what intellectual activity was going on there. Toledo in particular became an important centre of meeting of the three faiths, where scholars and mystics could freely discuss the ``New Learning,`` as it was called. It was here that the West’s Renaissance began in the early Middle Ages as ancient and contemporary works were translated from the Arabic, usually by Jews, into Latin and other Western languages.

Alongside the interaction between the Spanish and foreign intelligentsia was the Moorish influence upon European attitudes and customs. In Arab poetry, women were treated with great gentility and put on a pedestal. Romantic love and courtly behaviour enhanced a Moorish warrior’s image
The Universities of Andalusia were the best in Western Europe that was still in its Dark Age. There were professors and departments of every known subject from theology to mechanics. Among these were Astronomy, which also meant Astrology. This had been developed far beyond the Babylonian and Greek stages, as Arabs and Jews mapped the sky.
After 1492 and the expulsion of the Jews, and later the Moors, two vital factors in the nation’s life, Spain began to decline despite the illusion of great wealth and power bought by gold from the New World. Gone was the cultural interaction as the Inquisition made sure that Jewish and Moorish conversos, those who stayed and converted, became good Catholics. Spain is today, 500 years after 1492, just beginning to recognize her lost heritage.
-- some more:
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/lobby/2679/alandalu_english.htm
Arab rule brought a time of flowering for Spanish Jewry. Andalusian culture and power was represented by the caliph Abd ar-Rahman III, who made Cordova the cultural capital of the West. It was a Golden Age for the Jews; they learned Arabic and built prosperous communities in Seville, Granada and Cordova, the capital. Under the Caliphate, the Jews were able to preserve their rites and traditions. Peaceful coexistence led to their economic and social flourishing. Bit by bit they began to acquire positions of importance in the Caliphate administration and also stood out as skilful craftsmen. They played a role in the caravans which moved across Al-Andalus` main routes and cities, with skins, cloth and jewellery as their main products. The Jewish community of Cordova enjoyed extraordinary growth under the protection of Abd ar-Rahman III, counting on royal support for their relations with the State.

Oooops that last post wasn`t for this board..

Anyway..

Well anyway.. let me take this opportunity to clarify another misgiving. I wonder, why must all people on these boards assume that if I vehemently oppose some thing I want them banned...

Like I have said before, pseudos like Rehan Ansari are a necessity for any society to learn from .. to learn what not to be. I stand for complete freedom of speech, even if it is left wing-wannabe drivel. And in the `New Pakistan` I would gladly die protecting Rehan`s right to write, even if I personally want to take his writing and use it as toilet paper.

-YLH

Samina Shah,

If you honestly think that people like Rsaxena, whose only contribution to these boards has been insults and more insults is some how more annoying than me, who has always only retaliated... then so be it. It shows your skewed judgement and your personal imbalance. I can`t say anything further on this topic.

I know I must be very annoying constantly holding up the light of truth, fighting the age old stereotypes, and taking on sacred cows like Gandhi with facts. Truth often is a bitter pill to swallow. Even for the so called `Intellectuals`.

-YLH

Questions for the Anti-Zionists on these boards:

During the Israeli siege of Arafat`s compound 30 Human rights activists became Arafat`s human shielf out of their own will...

How many of them do you think were Israeli citizens and jews?

-YLH

PS Hopefuly the answer to that very important question will lay to rest the venomous snakes of hate biting each other in your minds.

Zionism = Realistic Humanism

Long Live Israel.

Ana,

I would have read your long posts to me but after reading this nonsensical, mischievious sentence, I decided against it:

you say:

``before I get yet another gentle reprimand..it`s not that I take YLH ever so seriously, but hey, words are powerful things``

Obviously you chose to just parrot anNy on this one. I am sorry, but if you guys don`t take me so seriously, there is no point in continuing with so many posts. Its amazing, when you don`t have a credible argument how amazingly people like you love to discredit others by making such condescending and air headed statements.

I am sorry, I cannot in good conscience continue to argue with a person who resorts to such devices. Hence as a matter of principle, I will not read the rest of this post, and the other post.. And frankly if you wish to continue to use such condescending, self righteous and stupid tenor, then I must request that you spare me your drivel.

Maybe just maybe you thought that attacking me was kosher, because I attack everyone.. well just maybe you will go back , read my posts and hopefuly realize that I haven`t till this point sent out any `insults` towards you. I have a very simple principle: Insult those in equal and even more forceful way than those who insult you.

Since you clearly couldn`t win the argument, you have resorted to insults, and I can not restrain myself any further... So instead of insulting yet another person for whom I had respect previously, I am leaving this thread.

-YLH

Okay, okay..before I get yet another gentle reprimand..it`s not that I take YLH ever so seriously, but hey, words are powerful things..and, and hai hai, the girl can`t help it! Perhaps I should just take my `jaam` and invoke one of my favorites of Insha: `Inshaji utho, ab kooch karo/ Iss shehar main dil ko lagana kya.`

But before I do that:

Samina..hey, thanks for the encouragement. Like you said once (often, i`m sure) `sistahood is powerful` Khuda na khaasta the encouraging of each other should be classified as `mob mentality`! I was wondering though, i`ve seen you post your email address a coupla times, would you mind if I got in touch with you?

YLH...

You continue to outdo yourself. There is simply no denying that. I acknowledge that you have said some very intelligent things, and I applaud your desire for a modern, secular, democratic and progressive Pakistan, because that is what I have wanted for practically all of my life, but there are other things you`ve said that seem to have come out of somewhere other than your mouth (or in this case, your fingers on the keyboard).

Comparing Kashmir to Palestine may be outrageous, and I should point out that you were the one who asked us why we couldn`t be as concerned (or more) about the Kashmiris than the Palestinians. Unless you are Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, I suggest you think about that before you tell us us purely pathetic, emotional women off about having mentioned both cases in the same email. There has never been a doubt in my mind that humanistic and democratic Jews live in Israel. The fact that millions of them came out in Israel for a peace march is incredible, it`s great! But on the other side of the coin, the reactionary right-wing elements of the government would like nothing more than to push all the Palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza.

You talk about people being killed on the Sabbath, but we also know that Muslims were killed while praying in a mosque. Suffering is everywhere in Israel and Palestine right now. I went to an Israel-Palestine forum last night, and heard and felt the pain being expressed from both sides. One of the Palestinians told the story of how in 1953, in his home, Israeli settlers came in, created a partition in his home, and told his parents that they would be happy to live like this until his family decided to leave. In their home where they had been for years, pre-1948. Is this what a truly humanistic, democratic government and people allow to happen? I wonder. And there are countless Jewish stories, people who live their lives in fear. Neither side feels safe. And I suspect they are not going to until Israel relinquishes its illegal claim and occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. You claim racism on the part of the Indians, and the Palestinians but deny the anti-Arabism, yet another form of racism on the part of certain Jews? This is truly rich.

How I wished last night, and all day today, that there could be forums on Kashmir. Indians, Kashmiris, Pakistanis getting together and talking about the countless issues at hand. Not government sponsored forums, but us..the people who never get asked what we think. We are asked to put our trust and our faith in our leaders, and time and time again that faith is put to the test. What would happen if things did happen at the grass-roots level? I suspect our governments wouldn`t be interested, and couldn`t care less.

But I digress..why should my emotional blather hold any charm for you, who so rationally state that an attack on the Indian army camp is a victory for the war on terror?

I wish I could be more like Rehan, or some of the others on this board, because they don`t fight back, or try to argue with you..perhaps they couldn`t give a crap about what you think of them. And I really don`t give a crap if you think my responses are emotional, or if you think that I`m either an intellectual fascist or wannabe (which way will the pendulum swing tomorrow???). I`m glad that you`re a Pakistani first..and you say Pakistan first. Mubarak ho! Myself, I`m a woman, a Christian, and then a Pakistani. And I will always be a Pakistani, no matter where I am. And there are many Christian Pakistanis, like myself, who will continue to maintain their ties to a land where they have been described as chooras, where they have been killed, where their homes have been destroyed and their churches burned down, ties because Pakistan is their home too, their families have been there for generations and generations. Am I getting too emotional for you? Why indeed would a modern, secular democratic and progressive Pakistan have no charm for me, a place where more than just those Christians in the army, and a few civilians could benefit?

Before you tag me as an intellectual fascist or wannabe any further, Mr. Hamdani, if I could just indulge the board`s patience, and make one thing clear to you. I do not now, nor have I ever considered myself to be an intellectual. I see nothing wrong with being one, but the honest truth is, I am not. I am just someone who has an open mind, who is interested from learning from everyone, and who feels free enough to have a voice to say what is on her mind. I don`t have to explain myself to you, or to anyone on this board or outside of it, but there it is. You seem to have a particular definition of what an intellectual is, and clearly Rehan Hasan Ansari doesn`t fit it. I can`t speak for my friend, but I imagine he must be simply crushed and at the end of his rope!!! I don`t think he will stop expressing his views, `pathetically immature` as you deem them to be, nor will you, `pathetically immature` as they appear to be. Afterall, wouldn`t this be the case in this `New Pakistan`..this modern, secular democratic and yes, let us always remember progressive Pakistan you envision?

Chowk is not limited to `intellectuals` of your calibre, either. Clearly this has been proved by so many of us who have expressed our views, bigoted, or progressive. None of us are going away..well actually I did, but I came back, and I came back to the same uncivility I had left behind. I guess Chowk is just a microcosm of our societies, and badtameezi and badmaashi will continue to prevail...indeed, this is progressiveness! Carry on!

1) First of all My flight is all set for 31st so thankyou very much.. I am going back to Lahore, and yes I am better than all of you.

2) `when you grow up`... typical condescending drivel from someone ready to concede the argument.

3) `South asian communities`... Like I have said before.. South Asia, beyond an imagined history and imagined identity, means nothing to me. Infact South Asians developing politically and creating a caucus in the Congress will mean more endorsement for Indian aggression in the Congress, and more denounciation of Pakistan. Pakistani community needs to go at it alone.

4) `rancor for india`... yes I do, but Israel is not the one shelling our borders, India is. So my `secular-centric` rancor for India is more justified than the Islamocentric rancor for Israel. One is real, the other is imagined.

5) Washington March, of which you were an advertiser on these boards, was full of hate filled rhetoric against Jews and Zionism. By association.. well lets not say any further.. I don`t want to offend you.

6) I am glad that you have informed me of your academic schedule... but to what end? I am confused.

7) `Pakistanis first` is `Humans first`. Remember the United Nations chose to call itself `United Nations` and not the `United World` or `United Humanity`. Unity in diversity... Because I am a human first, hence I am a Pakistani.. and if I am not mistaken you have stolen my words ... I had already said, I was a Human First, then a Pakistani and then anything else.

Hope you are gagging on my realism.

Ylh,

Now you are truly caught.

re: ``...if that were the slogan... how would you get a chance to block traffic in Washington, and scream `jews are evil`?...``



Pray tell, who among us has EVER written or said that? I evoke Hamid the Great who points out that we are the unpopular lone voices at biriyani dawats who maintain that everything is not a Muslim-Jewish Manichean struggle of Good vs Evil. But I guess this is your shot after my Central Asian remark.

But ylh, you do seem to hold an equivalent rancor for India that most Islamocentric people hold for Israel and the US.

And continue to insist that you are a better person than all of us for wanting to return to Lahore (will SOMEONE give this kid a job so he`ll shut up already?), and pretty much you have been respected for that. When you grow up, you`ll realize that a lot of work needs to be done here as well with the South Asian communities developing here politically, socially and economically, in our working class communities and in the universities that serve them and other diverse communities. I just finished a semester in which I took four pretty freaking intellectually rigorous classes (why? Because non traditional working class, immigrant students get worked harder and work harder to dispel any notion that a Columbia Universityite knows more than we do).

I taught two remedial college English composition courses (which is more challenging than any lit course you will ever teach)to a classroom of students from Kerala, Southern China, the Dominican Republic, Russia, Ghana, Ireland, Albania and Puerto Rico; some single young adult mothers. So how am I not working to improve the world around me?

You may say ``Pakistan first!``, but I say ``Humans First!``

Hope youre gagging on my goodygoodiness...

PLO warns of more suicide attacks

BEIRUT, May 17: A new wave of suicide bombings will hit Israel if the Jewish state does not withdraw from Palestinian territory, the Palestine Liberation Organization`s (PLO) political chief said on Friday.

``If Israel does not withdraw from the Palestinian territories, the martyr operations will resume as well as other types of operations,`` said Faruq Qaddumi, a noted hardliner and a founding member of Yasser Arafat`s Fatah movement.

He did not say what sort of withdrawal he was referring to - a pullback to positions before the West Bank invasion that began on March 29, to lines before the Palestinian uprising began in September 2000 or to Israel`s borders before the 1967 Middle East war.

His comments flew in the face of recent statements by Arafat denouncing attacks on Israel. Arafat publicly spoke out against ``attacks`` on Israeli civilians following a May 7, suicide bombing in Israel that left 17 dead and 55 injured.

Last Saturday, the leaders of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria met at the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh and denounced all ``forms of violence``, in a nod to Israel`s fears of Palestinian attacks against its civilians.

Qaddumi was to represent the Palestinian Authority and PLO at an Arab League committee meeting here Saturday on the Saudi peace plan adopted by the 22-member pan-Arab organization at its March summit in Beirut.-AFP

Just read the news that the Pakistani ambassador has been expelled from India....i hope (hopefully not in vain) that more madness will not follow. The people of Kashmir have suffered enough. Pakistanis and Indians have suffered through multiple wars. How much more desolation and destruction can Kashmiris bear as a people? And if both governments truly had the welfare of the Kashmiris in mind, they would both stop using it as a killing field, and desist from supporting murderous attacks such as those of recent days.

In my research on Kashmir for my paper last quarter, I came across an article by, I think his name is Sumantra Bose, and he offered an interesting solution to the conflict..using the different `strands` of the Northern Ireland peace process. I don`t know if that`s entirely workable but it was an effort all the same, an effort towards a non-violent solution that could benefit everyone,especially the Kashmiris, but also the Indians and Pakistanis. Of course there would be resistance to a Western modelled peace process, but if we could just find creative long-term solutions of our own...there`s nothing creative about the taking of lives, and end the continual political bullying, and demonization of each other`s governments and people.

scout #27: you`re right about that. and i don`t know what the wow meant, but thanks :)

Fawad: no, not all Palestinians are angels, nor are they all demons, but then the same applies to all of us, no?

``wow!``

``right on ana.``

``Keep it up``

``we intelligent women...``

Mob mentality????

Fawad mian,

The more I visit these boards and interact with likes of ana, saminashah, and others, the more I realize how accurate the vision of Ayn Rand was, and how right she was about the Modern day `Intellectual` wannabes.. I have been studying the life and times of Ayn Rand, and the more I read about her, the more I understand how pathetically immature our common detractors are.. the likes of this pseudo-intellectual Rehan Hassan Ansari... I suggest to understand these people and their `calibre` better read the book :

`For the New Intellectual: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand` Penguin 1961

What you have articulated is simply undeniable. The responses actually confirm that. Samina Shah`s response to you was PATHETIC. Anna`s response was typical emotionalism .. `you can`t equate terrorism with Palestinian cause` line...

yet while all these people cry for Jenin, why is it that no a whimper is heard of the plight of those poor jewish people who died on Sabbath? Poor jewish people whose only fault was that they were in a public place practising their religion?

Ana, Samina Shah etc

To compare Kashmir to Palestine is outrageous. Unlike the Kashmiris, Palestinians are faced with one of most humanistic and democratic people. Kashmiris on the other hand are being butchered by the savage flag bearers of Hindu Fascism and racism. Infact, since no civilians were targetted, I consider the brave and bold attack on Indian Army camp, to be a Major victory for the war on terror. Why should we equate the deaths of Indian Military terrorists with the deaths of innocent jewish people?

In any event, I am accused of hurling insults, yet, amazingly the only one being cursed at here as the `immature kid from NJ` (well thats gonna change since I am moving back to Lahore) etc.. And even though I have remained most respectful with those who HAVE remained respectful with me, I must admit that yes I do hurl insults at those who hurl insults at me.

And believe me ... I know quite well that my values, opinions and aspirations are not shared by you, and the likes of you... Why would a Modern secular democratic and progressive Pakistan, maintaining its dignity through self preservation, and rational self interest be of any charm to you... i mean come on.. it is not in the news is it? Why must my slogan of `Pakistan first` interest any one of you... how would you hold your rallies in your dinky little universities in the United States of America, if that were the slogan... how would you get a chance to block traffic in Washington, and scream `jews are evil`?

Well Pakistan does come first! and nothing you can say or do will change my mind.

ana #31,

wow

Fawad79

Dude, I`m not arguing with someone who cannot spell ``Palestinian``. `kay?

Right on, Ana!

ana #22 ``the elders can learn from the young``

At 16 I used to know everything. At 25 I wasnt too sure. Now I know that I know nothing. (My deep thought for the day).

amina #19 You write lengthy posts on sindh on boards here and there. You ignore any responses (including two or three times I responded, and quite sympathetically too).

You are not being a good spokesperson for the Sindhi cause at all!! Maybe you should become a champion for the cause of the Sindhi landlords instead, since I would really like to see those freeloading good-for-nothings suffer. And leave the poor Sindhi peasant alone - he has enough problems of his own without your ruining his cause on chowk by including him in the constituency you think you are speaking out for.

Intellectual fascism?!?! catering to the US?! you being ganged upon and abused?!? hai hai, bechare tum, Yasser beta.

Noone is imposing or trying to force anything down your throat. You on the other hand, whine about being verbally abused while you have the nerve to deem 3 million Palestinians as terrorists. Apne garebaan main jhank kar dekho ji!

You have said that you will not tolerate `intellectual fascism` being imposed on you. What I find intolerable are your senseless generalizations, your constantly referring to a whole people as terrorists. Can you really sit in your own ivory tower and say that all the inhabitants of Gaza, the Muslims, the Orthodox Christians, among others, are terrorists? Is the wife of the Orthodox priest I receive regular emails from a terrorist? I suppose you think that Hanan Mikhail Ashrawi is a terrorist as well.

You say that we `intellectuals` cater to what`s `au courant` as an issue in the US. Let me tell you something. There are quite a few of us who continuously challenge the images that are portrayed of us..Indians and Pakistanis in these United States of America. We are regarded by some people as ignorant as you with suspicion as to our views and our concerns. It`s so easy for you to sit at your computer, and talk about how us Pakistani `intellectuals` couldn`t give a bloody damn about the sufferings of people in Pakistan, but you have no clue, absolutely no clue of what some of us have been through in Pakistan, what our families and dearest friends have been through in Pakistan. Oh no, we couldn`t possibly be concerned about the plight of EVERYONE there!

For the limited time that I have been interacting here, it has been my desire to be involved in a dialogue, an exchanging of ideas, and I have tried to do that with you as well Yasser, as have others, I`m sure. Your idea of having a lively discussion is to begin by hurling insults and thoughtless generalizations because some of us choose to be as bloody opinionated as you, although on the opposite side. I thank you for having written all that you have, because it has made me pause and reflect, and reflection is always a good thing, especially if it causes positive change. And I don`t believe in imposing my views on others, but I do believe in voicing them, because silence is not always golden. But I would like to suggest that your referral to 3 million Palestinians as terrorists shows a great amount of ignorance and closed mindedness on your part, and if you don`t give a damn about that or the Palestinian people, then that`s between you and your God, and of course the falastinis. Only you can change what is within you, not any of us `intellectual fascists`.

Just be assured that as long as I am an interactor here, I will continue to question and challenge ideas and thoughts that I don`t understand, or that I don`t agree with, just like you do. And I will try my utmost best to focus on issues rather than the characters of persons I cannot claim to know. But unlike you, I will not insult someone because they have an opportunity to teach at the `New School` or because unlike you, they give a damn about Israelis and Palestinians alike, as well as Indians and Pakistanis, and value all human life. And I apologize for any insults that I may have flung in previous posts to all those who have been critical of me.

Have a great weekend, one and all!

it is undeniable hamdani that the palestinian cause has been hijacked by terrorists.....some palis dont want to co-exist with israel........the palitinians are suffering badly and they need to be helped and i think that samina shah, anna ,and people who share their views think of palistine in a 1 -dimessional way ,,,,,,,,,,yasser arafat is really a complex man .....

1) the use of violence has worked.....we are at the point where a Pali state is inevitable was it through civil disobedience this was achieved..............no its through violent resistance .......

2) kashmir recieves little attention from our arab co religionists well cause they dont care ............but then again so does chechyna indonesia and every other single non arab muslim cause how many times have u heard about the Uighurs in china ????/

3) most people say that suicide bombings are a result of desperation...........i disagree ......i once went to jhang since i have a cousin who lives there..........jhang is the home of SSP ....i met a kid 9 yrs old who said shiism is dushman-e-islam...............now when u inculcate hatred from an early age u will get suicide bombings etc etc............do u know how suicide bombings started ? when a bunch of palis were exiled to lebanon where they met shiites who took shahadat in shiism to the extreme...........

pro-palestinians dont realize........all rational human beings should be pro palestine and sympathize with their plight but id really like to see ana or samina to say the palis share the responsibility for their miserbale plight....

1) rejection of the barak deal and instead of a counter -offer the intiation of violence

2) the teaching of hatred and blood libel

3) the smuggling of weapons in karine A

4) the repeated violation of the Oslo accords

5) the corruption and mismanagement of funds by PA

6) the failure of Arab countries to re settle the refugees in their nations

FYI palis are barred by law from buying selling land and entering into professions from brick layer to doctor in lebanon

fyi---in jordan with a majority pali population palis are denied aequate representation

fyi-----egypt they were quicked out

i could go on and on the Palis are the most hated arabs an egyptian once told me the Palis are the jews of the arab world---landless, overachieving, paranoid....etc etc yes the israelis are to blame for their opression and humiliiation,,,,but please the palistinians are no angels ..........................

ana, saminashah,

what`s the point in arguing with someone who thinks it`s his right to pass judgment on people based on inklings of what they write on an anonymous internet forum..... besides, why should you intelligent women have to `explain` urselves to anyone, let alone an immature kid from NJ.

to him, expressing sympathy for the Palestinian cause is equal to condoning terrorism, two very different things....in that case, the moron in question, should steer clear of expressing sympathy for Kashmiris, since in his mind, that would be condoning terrorism as well..

ylh,

look in the mirror and repeat this phrase a thousand times:

`i`m not always right`

amina shah #19:


[...Ms Anny, Samina etc....I am touched by your kindness towards PLO ....Can you spare your little sympathy for Sindhis of Sindh...]

---the interacts here...these are responses by chowkies to this article.

---if you want issues in Sindh discussed by the chowkies you should write an article articulating your view point...

love,

temporal

Aminashah...:)

Great post there...

Unfortunately these for `intellectuals` of ours will only cater to the issues which can bring out the most crowd in the US... who cares about Sindh or the plight of Sindhi people... Some 45 Million people of Sindh can`t be as important as the 3 Million terrorists of Palestine..

-ylh

PS A new Pakistan will have to learn the age old lesson: `CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME`!

Right back at ya...

I am sorry.. no matter how much you all will gang up on me abuse me kick me scream at me, I will not tolerate this `intellectual fascism` that is being imposed on us....

Totally separate from the article: And as for the plight of the terrorists in palestine.. I really don`t care. And if your concern is humanitarian, why haven`t I seen the same kind of hue and cry for the Yahudis dying in Jerusalem and Haifa? or wait is the blood of the Yahudi not worth our consideration?

amina shah # 19



``no time for sindis squeezed and displaced by indian mohajirs by constantly damaging sindhi culture and people and Sindhi ethos.

Just some Sindhis of India attend meeting in usa with sindhis its big crime.

If the Mohajirs are Indian then you are an ARAB.

Need explanation?Check your surname.

One of the Indians attending and chairing the meet

was M.R.Malkani, a member of BJP/RSS unit.Does that answer your question.

Regards.

PS:Please Check out who has been alotted all the agricultural lands in the Ghulam Mohammad Barrage and the rest of the Upper Sind.

YLH.. Spare us `mature elders` your spoonfeeding, please. I can`t speak for the rest of the elders on this board, but I am damn well capable of feeding myself thank you.

You always seem to forget that some of us have experienced more than you have read or learned, and therefore we know of what we speak as well. And our opinions are obviously not for you, as yours are not for us. So, divided we remain, and that is fine with me. But please, while the elders can learn from the young, I haven`t found anything really of nourishing substance as of yet that you could feed me with, but hope does spring eternal. So thank you for your willingness to spoonfeed, but no thank you!

subroto...are you keeping track?!?!

Many groups have been and continue to be silenced in Pakistan, Amina ji. There is no denying that very painful truth. I think I told YLH this before, but just because I responded to this particular article that addressed Palestinians, does not mean that I am any less horrified or concerned about what has been happening in our country for years. It is deplorable, and incredibly painful for those of us who have experienced such silencing by murder, other forms of violence and imprisonment. Sindhis, Baluchis, religious minority groups, women, and a great many more have suffered as a result of domination by a self-serving few, whether they be faujis, or men in achkans and suits, or women.

The more I read this article, especially the last couple of paragraphs, I realize that while the comic book deals with the struggles of Palestinians, that Rehan`s article as well as the comic book is applicable to other groups who suffer from oppression and believe they are powerless in the face of it. What can I, a Pakistani Christian woman, for example, do in the face of such oppression. From what I`ve read of what you`ve wrote, I get a sense of powerlessness and a call for sympathy, but clearly more than sympathy is required. What becomes of people like us who believe we have no power in our country. Here`s a situation, real or hypothetical, depending on the reader: If we lose most of our land, are continuously monitored and harassed by faujis and police, restricted in terms of our movement around the country, what would become of us? What are the thoughts that are going through our minds? Violence is destroying Karachi, and other towns and cities in Pakistan. The late Agha Shahid Ali wrote of Kashmir, `they make it a desolation and call it peace`. What goes through our minds, and what ways can we think of other than violence to end this cycle of oppression and domination?

On one of the boards earlier..one of the interactors lamented about the fact that since there are those of us who don`t value our own lives, or the lives of our own people, how can we value the lives of others? Obviously, if we see no hope for ourselves, we`re not going to give a damn about the Palestinians, or the Kashmiris, or the Eritreans, or anyone.

Ana,

Indeed. Those of us interested in Palestine and Isreal are also supportive of self determination in Kashmir and liberation from India and Pakistan, who have acted in their own self interests from the get go. And we do question the dubious stats and analysis that certain interactors try to pass of as factual. Yes, Kashmir is always on our minds, but not in the ways these dear interactors would want it to be. Well said again.

We also know that Film Studies is a highly respected academic discipline with its critical theorists, artists, students and genres as is any other field. In fact, Film Studies is becoming Cyber Theory`s slightly older sister in terms of being a relatively recent academic field (I`d say it`s official genesis began in the last 50 years). In fact I know several colleagues in PH.D Literature programs who minor in specialized film studies and encorporate film into their lit curricula....but who needs multi textual, multi interpretional, multi visual and aural cross dialogic art when the copying machine and the musty history section of the library beckons? Indeed, why study the sound bite or the info bit or the image-hardly relevant in our contemporary times...

Ms Anny, Samina etc.

I am touched by your kindness towards PLO .

Can you spare your little sympathy for Sindhis of Sindh.

Sindhi speakers are refugees in sindh. Sindhis have lost Karachi, hyderbad and Sukkar and other towns are in early process of ethinic cleancing of Sindhis.Did any body of you say any time about plight of sindhs in sindh in Pakistan? Why you never say a world about it. May be Indian Mohajirs and their Supremo Generals frightens you or you feel sindhis deserve it to serve interests of Punjab- mohajir- army axis.Why you cry so loud as isralies are removing Palestanians but do not think of what is happening in sindh, the systimatic destruction of Sindhi language and culture under leadership of army-punjab-Mohajir axis.

May be it is very fashionable and chic to cry for them no time for sindis squeezed and displaced by indian mohajirs by constantly damaging sindhi culture and people and Sindhi ethos. What you think Sindhis are worried about Indian tanks or Punjabi- Mohajir axis. I will like to know what you think what sindhis think. Sindhis are not worried about indian tanks but we are all worried and depressed about Punjabi- MQM axis.Because Indians have not sent tanks to crush but Punjabis have sent Indians to demolisj sindhis in every way. We are not worried about indian tanks but worried about Punjabs Ethinic indian aggression.

I hope you people more give attention to sindhis and palestians.

Do you know If any sindhi is known to thinking of any ` non approved meeting like sindhi congress` some nasty ppl come to visit you. Why it is crime of sindhis to have Sindhi organization, but Punjabi conference is halal, indians can come ang go. Just some Sindhis of India attend meeting in usa with sindhis its big crime. Why sindhis are talking of going to world court for water problems? Think about it. Please keep in mind Sindhis are more oppressed than palestinanians

, hope Sindhis get in history. I want to remand bengalies were more treated worst by Punjabi- Mohajir-army axis than israel treats PLO.

I hope you ppl worry about home problems. PLO does not need `intelluctual` help from pakistan.

OK folks stay tuned to the coming saga of ``Ana and the Kid`` right here on this message board.....

YLH wonders aloud:

Why is that these overly excited Pro-Palestinian activists haven`t uttered a word about Kashmir and the Indian occupation there? Ah... but that ain`t as cool as `Palestine` is it.. I wonder why.. after all aren`t Kashmiris as fair as Palestinians?



How do you know that these `overly excited pro-Palestinian activists` haven`t uttered a word about Kashmir? Do you have some sort of special sense as to what concerns such activists? As for your last sentence, well, I`ll just have to take it for the bad joke it is, given that it totally smacks of bad taste and lack of intelligence.

I won`t argue with the fact that Pakistanis should tend to, and respond to problems in their own back yard first. Voltaire at the end of `Candide` says something about how one must cultivate one`s garden. But being aware and concerned and protesting against the plight of Palestinians doesn`t mean that we must be `servile` as MT puts it..to the Arabs. Our own poets wrote about the senselessness of the Vietnam war, along with the injustices that they witnessed and felt in their own country at the time. IMHO, I find these poets very inspiring. So be patriotic if you will, be concerned about injustices that are being perpetrated in your country, and by your country, but don`t tell us we have no shame for being concerned about the plight of those in Palestine, in Israel, in the United States or anywhere else where injustices and crimes against humanity are being committed.

And before another interactor tells me I take Yasser too seriously, I don`t. I find him utterly laughable most times. But when he triumphantly declares (with the least bit of humility, mind you) that at least what he has to say provides for lively discussion, and while every one is entitled to their opinion, it would be truly be a lively discussion if an intelligent dialogue was to take place. Instead we have mudslinging, and long diatribes, and defensiveness on all sides.

`Drawing Palestine` is an observational piece. Joe Sacco could not have possibly known what it was like in the day of a Palestinian child, unless he was able to go there and see it for himself. And he gets transformed in the process, and expresses such a transformation through his cartoons. He sees and shows us the power imbalances in that part of the globe. But given that we all read differently, and selectively..some of us take this piece and unfairly attack a people that are already, and have been, under siege. I did tons of research and wrote a paper on Kashmir, which was incredibly difficult because a lot of what I found was accusations hurled from both sides, with some meaningful dialogue, but so far from a solution. But let me not digress and drown in diatribe myself.

Once again.. i am forced to spoon feed very mature elder people...

Progression:

1) Palestinian terrorist blows himself up killing jews.

2) He becomes a Hero in Pakistan for being a brave martyr.

3) Some delusional fundamentalist blows up the french in Pakistan...

Please conclude for yourself!

new school eh??

Isn`t that where that crass bigoted and pompous fool Christopher Hitchens teaches... and now rehan ansari.. wo bhee indian cinema pay... that is an education should be spared...

How about `Liberalism` gone mad? howz that for a cliche?

Your Attention Please


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I think my last posting may have met its demise on the censor`s cutting board, so I`ll try being a kinder, gentler person.

Yasser, I have no shame in coming to the defense of `Palestinians` as you lump them. Not all Palestinians are terrorists, and it`s incredibly unfair and yes, even immature for you to say that. Not surprising, however, considering how easy bashing other groups comes to you. I have been a supporter of Palestinian statehood, ever since I was in Pakistan, because it was there that a few enlightened people brought this to our attention as young students.

And in terms of Palestinians being responsible for teaching terrorism all over the world, I think that the crapper may have flushed back up the load that went in there. For goodness sake`s man....ahhhh....it`s hopeless!

Or perhaps.. just maybe I know enough mideast history to know that Israel as a nation will always be risk, if these terrorists are given their own state.

One wonders where does this self proclaimed socialist called rehan ansari get so much money to travel from city to city...?

Being a well wisher for a Good Pakistan I cannot but echo YlH ,Pak has nothing to lose but its servility to Arab causes, now turn inwards and make a better word out of Pakistan before turning your sights outward.

Wondering out loud!

Why is that these overly excited Pro-Palestinian activists haven`t uttered a word about Kashmir and the Indian occupation there? Ah... but that ain`t as cool as `Palestine` is it.. I wonder why.. after all aren`t Kashmiris as fair as Palestinians?

YLH speaks:

Palestinians are terrorists. They have taught people terrorism all over the world. What happened in Karachi was directly inspired by Palestine.. Forget those Arab terrorists.. we have only begun to see what it feels like to be on the receiving end of suicide bombings.. Have you no shame in supporting the terrorist thugs of Palestine?



Actually, no. I have no shame in supporting the people of Palestine. What gives you the bloody right to judge all Palestinians as terrorists??? Oh, I suppose the same right that has you bashing Indians as well.

Palestinians have taught people terrorism all over the world?! My god, and here I was thinking it was the goras and their intelligence agencies! hmmm...meri bhool.

Not too focused on this one Rehan.


Ras

Ana,

Palestinians are terrorists. They have taught people terrorism all over the world. What happened in Karachi was directly inspired by Palestine.. Forget those Arab terrorists.. we have only begun to see what it feels like to be on the receiving end of suicide bombings.. Have you no shame in supporting the terrorist thugs of Palestine?



WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO MY COUNTRY

The unlikely hero of the blast

By Karachian

The devastating suicide bombing in the heart of the city last Wednesday, which took the lives of 14 people including 11 French citizens, has shaken Pakistanis to their core. It was certainly not the first incident of terrorism on Pakistani soil but the scale and nature of this attack has driven home to everyone the bitter harvest of the US-led ``war on terrorism``. Suddenly, even people in Karachi, far away from the main battlefields of Afghanistan, are acutely aware that they are directly in the firing line.

One journalist, who lives just down the road from where the blast took place and who was among the first people on the scene, reported being jolted awake by the deafening explosion which shook his entire building.

Running out on to his balcony, he saw smoke billowing on the road next to the Sheraton and PC hotels. When two people drenched in blood on a motorcycle, came and collapsed on the road right under his flat, he called his journalist colleagues and ran to the place of the incident.

The scene that he saw was of utter carnage. The smoking, blood-drenched debris of a mangled bus, bodies on the street and trapped inside the bus, the glass windows of both hotels and shops on the ground floor blown out, an eight-feet wide crater on the road and pieces of metal and glass littering the entire road.

He also reported that, as usual, Edhi ambulances were the first aid to get to the scene, and helped ferry the bodies of those killed and wounded to hospitals. But a number of people, including policemen from the nearby station, had also rushed to help in the rescue operations. It was these brave volunteers who pulled the survivors out of the wreckage of the bus.

In particular, he also saw one man in a light blue shirt and grey trousers, splattered with blood stains, who was barking orders to the gathering law enforcement personnel, asking for the area to be cleared to make way for the ambulances. This man had already pulled five severely wounded survivors from the bus, probably saving their lives.

The journalist initially thought the Pakistani-origin man was from a civil defence agency. But it soon became clear that he was merely a guest at one of the five-star hotels who had rushed out to help as soon as he heard the blast. When the journalist went up to talk to this man, who gave a graphic description of the carnage he witnessed inside the bus, it also became extremely obvious that the man was completely inebriated. In his traumatized and drunken state, he kept cursing the terrorists as well as the law enforcement personnel for not doing enough to prevent what had happened. ``What are they doing to my country!`` he kept shouting. Here was an unlikely hero, but a hero nonetheless.

Well put Ana. I know many Indians and non Palestinians are very disturbed by the power imbalances in the Occupied Territories.

oh ylh? Shut up about Palestine as well.

ylh #1,

can you stop acting like a freak? you need to take some yoga classes or needlepoint for beginners.

the Palestine issue is a major international issue, and everyone is entitled to their opinions regarding it. you`re derogatory stance on the issue is extremely childish.

you`re almost 22, not a dood peeta bigra hua bacha.

Sooo...from the interactions so far, do I understand that the only way we can be concerned about Palestinian statehood is if they had been concerned about `us`, or if it benefits us directly in some way? Verrry interrrresting.

Thanks for this piece Rehan..I had to read it more than once, but it was well worth it. In a city like Portland (a city I`m very familiar with)where people are able to reinvent themselves because they have the power and the resources to do so, the Occupied territories are a stark contrast in terms of power. I`m stating the obvious, but most of these media analysts, and those of us pretending to know what we talk about (no lack of pretenders on this board!)seem to ignore the fact that Palestinians have felt a sense of powerlessness because they have been dispossessed. Power does not come in the guise of suicide bombers, or Israeli tanks turning Ramallah into rubble. Or in controversial referendums. Power comes from being morally aware rather than bereft, from acknowledging differences, and finding peaceful paths that will make us stronger as people and nations. And by looking at Joe Sacco`s cartoons, and his thought-provoking questions, we can think of more questions, as well as search for answers.

F--k Palestine, Yasser? I think not. Because if that`s the way we feel, then we should all go f--k ourselves!

interesting

when India dissected Pakistan Arabs(PLO) said nothing. When we were winning in Kargil arab world sided with Hindus and asked us to solve problem by ``Talk`. Arafat is trechrous man. The greatest Muslim Imam Khomani was deceived by this short unshaved man. He said to Imam Khomani he is like father to him and turned around and kissed SADDAM. They were happy when Iraqis were butchering surprised Iranians. When Saddam invaded Quwait Arafat kissed Saddam and joined his gang. A dog biting feeding hand.When terrorist attack killed about 3000 in usa, palestanians went ballastic. Specially USA feeds the camps they live in and they enjoy slaughtering of americans. They acted as Fifth column in Quwait.I do not understand what We Pakistanis get by being over loyal to them. Let us have diplomatic relationship with israel then PLO will improve behaviour.I have sympaty for them and many others including our pakistanis. Leave PLO and their problems. We have no value. So shut up and let us do our work. There is no point in over working on PLO problems.

Why is it that every wannabe intellectual goody goody south asianist pakistani loves to write about Palestine..

F-ck Palestine...