Lighting The Nuclear Fire

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Sorry folks, the correct link is

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j060302.html

Re: Romair

I believe that India welcomes such internationalization:

``The United States cannot permit Pakistan`s role as our new ally in fighting terrorism to go unsupervised. After all, until last fall, Pakistan supported the same terrorists who massacred U.S. civilians on U.S. soil.

President Gen. Pervez Musharraf shows an unnerving willingness to take terrible risks in daring India, another of our relatively new allies, to go to war. Equally evident in their standoff is the abysmal failure of earlier international nuclear non-proliferation efforts.

But failure is no longer an option in today`s world.`` (The Oregonian)

http://www.oregonlive.com/editorials/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/editorial/1023278145287931.xml

Romair,

Did you read how this `internationalization` is helping Gen. Musharraf? Here is a tidbit from the LA Times:

QUOTE

Rather than continuing to praise Musharraf`s efforts, President Bush must now demand that he do more to stop the cross-border incursions. Musharraf would be forced to do so at a time when the U.S. is relying on the Pakistani military to help seal the Pakistan-Afghanistan border and hunt terrorists fleeing and regrouping in the South

Asian nation.

Musharraf made a difficult and potentially life-threatening decision in the days after Sept. 11. He bucked conventional wisdom and the Arab street to throw his support behind American efforts in Afghanistan and against many of the Muslim extremists in Islamabad.

This time, the bold leader must choose an even bolder action. He must change course and move against terrorists--or ``freedom fighters,`` depending on your point of

view--on the Pakistani side of the Line of Control in Kashmir.

None of these actions will be popular within his nation`s borders.

In 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain appeased Adolf Hitler`s Germany and declared ``peace in our time.``

World War II began a year later.

If Musharraf can remember the mistakes of the past, and learn from recent success against terror, perhaps World War III will not be launched from Islamabad.

END QUOTE

romair ur analysis is flawed

1) u say that the issue has been internationalized wrong bush has repeatedly stated he will mediate only in terms of a bilateral context----in other words the indians turned it into a bilateral issue and they did it well

2) the world sees it as pakistani sponsored terrorism

3) the recent poll shows that back stabbing kashmiris for what they really are : indians....................

let the kashmiris stay with india let pakistan do nothing but point out the human rights violations in every public i say malign india till pakistani diplomatic throats are sore but no cross border attacks remember the kashmiri rose up in the 80s cuz of indian opression

i will say something and remember it: hinduvta and indian muslims cannot co-exist one has to yield to the other .......

trust me if we cut all logistical ties to the kashmiris like the Jordanians did to the PLO in the end jordan gained peace and the PLO back was to the wall and it fought like hell and now the INTL COMMUNITY AND AMERICA TALK ABOUT PALESTINE AS AN ESTABLISHED FACT I SUGGEST ALL KASHMIRI FOLLOW THE PALESTINIAN MODEL and they will get their state but they must do it on their own and from no help from PAk meanwhile we keep azad kashmir

Re: Romair

``…I would encourage all Pakistanis to say a few extra prayers for the BJP remaining in power in India. As long as the BJP is in power in India…India is doomed. India will self-destruct…"

Thank you for exposing your and other like-minded Pakistanis` motivations. Thanks also for making plain your solidarity with minorities in India. And you claim to be a member of Amnesty International?

``…India has accepted third-party mediation…"

I think that India welcomes any mediation if it results in India`s achieving its political/diplomatic goals. By all reckoning, the world is making increasingly loud noises that Gen. Musharraf needs to `do more to stop terrorism`, who in turn has committed to the world that `Pakistan will not be allowed to be used for terrorism, and nothing is going on the LoC`. So much the better. The world has openly begun calling what is going on in Kashmir as `terrorism`. A subtle, but a very important shift. If India can stop infiltration without firing a shot, so much the better, isn`t it?

``…The freedom struggle in Kashmir keeps going strong, as do the cross border infiltrations…"

Sorry, but you are out of synch with global public opinion on this. Have you been reading any of the statements made by GW Bush, Jack Straw, Kofi Annan? Also, have you read the opinion poll on the mood in J&K, which indicates that Pakistan`s interference in J&K is unpopular by an overwhelming majority? You seem to be wanting to thrust violence and terror on people who do not want it. And you claim to be a member of Amnesty International?

``… Pakistan does not blink, and piles up its own forces…"

`Blinking` means stopping infiltration. And THAT Pakistan will ultimately do. I have no doubt about it. It is the responsible thing to do in a nuclear environment, otherwise Pakistan is just one regime change away from entering the `Axis of Evil`.

``… uniting the Indian population behind it…"

I am reminded about Hippocrates (the ancient Greek philosopher) who had this to say about dictatorships threatening democratic societies:

``Now when men are not their own masters and independent, but are ruled by despots, they are not really militarily capable, but only appear to be warlike…For men`s souls are enslaved and they refuse to run risks readily and recklessly to increase the power of somebody else. But independent people, taking risks on their own behalf and not on behalf of others, are willing and eager to go into danger, for they themselves enjoy the prize of victory. So institutions contribute a great deal to military valor`` …Hippocrates, in Airs, Waters, Places (16,23)

re:Reply #: 387

Romair,

You write:

``However, the world needs to be in the good books of Pakistan, at the moment also (and it wants to end this Kashmir issue once and for all, to avoid future nuclear war scenarios), so it puts a great deal of pressure on India to talk and resolve this issue, as well.``

Again, the marijuana is showing. West needs the Supreme Whore for now. He is satisfying all their desires. But even he has been inconsistent. If you had cared to read the newspapers (not Paki but standard international ones like NYTimes, Wash. Post etc), the only thing that you will hear is the leaders urging Mushy to wind up terrorism. Such a language was never used in the past. At best, we only saw a grudging reference to Indian allegation of Cross-border terrorism. Now, the language has completely shifted to ``Pakistan sponsored cross-border terrorism``. If you have not noticed this shift, you have been blind.

``The BJP is taking India down the drain, in more ways than Indians realize..``

No kidding, Mr Sherlock Holmes. We Indians did not realise BJP was taking India down the drain. We Indians also did not realise (until geniuses like you pointed it out)that BJP was ruling India. We always thought it was a coalition govt with a number of parties including BJP (and a number of disparate parties like Telugu Desam, DMK etc).

``Now the BJP is stuck again. It has all of India united in a war mode, and is issuing one threatening statement after another against Pakistan, yet it is not attacking (because it know that could result in a nuclear war).``

India has not attacked Pak so far because it is slowly going up the escalatory ladder. India has not yet exhausted its diplomatic options. If western powers can lean on Pak to dismantle all the infrastructure for terrorism in POK, why would India go for war? The present stand off has been financially ruinous for Pak. If India continues to squeeze Pak economically, at the same time putting diplomatic pressure, India is happy. Meanwhile, India is strengthening its military prowess by buying military equipment from US, Israel etc. This is what Indira Gandhidid in the 71 war. She waited for the right moment while preparing (diplomatically, politically and militarily) for war. Pak today is under tremendous pressure to stop cross-border terrorism. US will monitor how Mushy delivers. Next time around, Pak may be declared a terrorist nation. Mushy`s usefulness lasts only as long as he delivers. He is not indispensable to US. If Mushy falls and a fundoo takes over, i leave it to your hallucinating brain to come with a likely US response. It is scary, to say the least.

``By doing this, the BJP has undone the decades of spin work the Indian foreign ministry had very successfully done on Kashmir. This spin work was highly beneficial to India, and had kept Kashmir under the covers``

You seem to think all that is happening is BJP`s doing alone. I do not see any protest by any opposition party in India. India`s policy of bilateral talks to the Kashmir issue still holds. I listened to Lalit Mansingh on Jim Lehrer`s News yesterday. He categorically stated India`s opposition to UN intervention and its adherence to Simla agreement and bilateral talks. Kofi Annan on visit to Pak last year had ruled out UN Plebescite as it was not enforceable (legally)on India. It is one of the well-intended things that Nehru would have liked to happen and we will leave it at that.

This is not to say there won`t be other players. There already are. Putin is in the fray. US, UK are both concerned. But all discussions will be behind the scene. There will not be a Tripartite meet until India says yes.

``The spin`` as you call it is not a spin but a declared policy, attested to by none other than Z.A.Bhutto in Simla agreement. It is another matter that a self-styled dictator of your country does not follow bilateral agreements because they are not to his liking.

India has for many decades avoided international players. Pak will soon discover why. It will be too late for Pak when it does find out that international mediation is not necessarily the right thing to do. Pak believes that Kashmir will be handed over to it. Repeated assertion of sanctity of LOC should have convinced Pak by now that no western powers would like LOC to be changed militarily. India is happy with the status quo while Pak is trying to change it. Pak can kiss good bye to the valley now. At best LOC will be the international border.

``So, due to the BJP antics, India now is being forced to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan (which it didn`t have to do before).``

We have been discussing Kashmir with Pakis for the past 50 years. In which planet are you living? I have not seen any western power forcing India for a third party mediation. India will agree to that only when it is convinced it has nothing to lose.

``The cat is now out of the bag. India has accepted third-party mediation (what the hell else would one call Armitage, Powell, Straw, Putin, Karzai, Khatami etc.).``

More of marijuana, i suppose. Perhaps with cocaine this time as you seem to be hallucinating as well as delusional. Powell, Putin etc are mediating? When did that happen? Putin had seperate talks with ABV and Mushy. This was part of a meeting where a number of other countries participated. India also discussed bilateral issues with Russia. Where was the mediation?

Powell and other dignitaries you mentioned visited India and Pak due to their concerns. Where was the mediation? (I am using mediation in its strictest sense; i believe India`s Foreign secy? Mishra did not object to the usage of the term ``mediation`` when talking about what other players are doing).

``India will now have to talk to Pakistan on Kashmir. ...``

Again the incoherent blabber. What do you think India has been doing for the past 50 years?

The rest of your post is trash. I think you need help. I can sympathise with you. Being a Paki in today`s world is not easy. Only the other day i heard that Pakis will be fingerprinted if they visit US. I did not see India being mentioned. Ah, well. One of those ironies in life that are difficult to explain (Since Pak sees parity with India in everything, most Pakis will be left wondering why Indians are not being fingerprinted; i guess, they will never know the answer as they all live in a make-believe world of their own).

Sridhar

RE Pyar Kiye Jaa 385

Be careful of what you wish for. Thanks to their North Korean kit technology, who knows, the missiles aimed at Delhi will get to Patna.

re:Reply #: 387

Romair,

You only seem to reinforce Subhash Kak`s assertion (see the article i posted in another forum)that most Pakis live in their own dream world.

Yes, Kashmir issue has been internationalised but to Pak`s detriment. If you have not realised this simple fact, you need to have your head examined.

1. Nuclear blackmail: Pak has been trying to bring the major players in by resorting to nuclear blackmail. It has succeeded but is finding these powers breathing hard on Pak to tone the rhetoric. No country takes kindly to an irresponsible nuclear power. Pak, lest you forget, is the only nuclear power with military controlling the nuclear button and with a first-strike doctrine.

2. Denial of cross-border terrorism: Pak dictator was again stupid enough to deny that there was any infiltration across LOC while US, UK have actually independently confirmed the existence of such an infiltration. USA is helping India put more sophisticated technology in place to monitor LOC.

India has very cleverly linked cross-border terrorism with the peace in the area. The onus is now on Mushy boy who is now ``between the rock and hard place``. If he controls the infiltration serioulsy, he risks antagonising a number of militant outfits and the ISI as well as some hardcore army brass. If he does not, he risks upsetting Uncle Sam. Me thinks, this man`s days are numbered.

Sridhar

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Roohi, Veereesh

Lol, its true! We`re glad to have you back!

Now you may not use the ``W`` word again...you`ve used it enough to suffice for a lifetime...this was becoming a matter of concern for me, anyway-a Chowk writer reduced to word/symbol of teenage pop cultural apathy-fight it Veeresh, the road to recovery will be rocky :)

Reply #: 368 Romair

..The reason is ... that Kashmiris hate India with a passion.

...//

Not True. The recent survey by MORI , UK based independent agency certifies the opposite.

Here are some scenarios under which Kashmir could be ``solved``.

One - pak establishment and people realise that their ``bleed India policy`` is bleeding pak more than India and it cannot be sustained without serious damage to Pak itself. The changed international scenario, bad economy etc forces them to cool down on kashmir Jehad. THis might already be happening to some extent as evident from writings of some Pak intellectuals. If the October general election goes smoothly and throws up a credible democratic leader who manages some supremecy of civlian power over the military then this might add to the possibility of a reconciliation.

But there are too many vested interests in Pak establishment which might not allow this to happen. This scenario remains too good to be true.

Two: This scenario is more likely to happen: which is - a change in Kashmiri attitude favouring a reconciliation with central gov`t.

There are many reasons for this :

* Kashmiris realise that 13 years of violence has not brought them not a inch closer to Independence. A battle fatigue has set in.

* Jihadis who have hijacked their struggle are not exactly a Kashmiri cup of tea.

* The ``help`` from Pak has been most damaging to their cause and has no prospect of forcing India to give any concession.

* Now that Pak has dumped Taliban - they would be less willing to put faith on Pak for their cause.

* Merger with Pak is much less attractive. A failed state, failed economy, no political stability, hotbed of terrorism.

* After 9/11 , they might rightly conclude that violence is not going get them anywhere.

* Now that India is even prepared for nuke war for Kashmir would convince them that India is not going to let them go.

* The economy is much stronger in India and is going to get better. They have a market of 300 million potential tourists to benefit from.

So the kashmiris would decide to strike a deal with the central gov`t and get some form of autonomy and get on with their lives.

Lack of local support, improved border security with hitech systems and pressure from US on paki gov`t would squeeze the Jihadis hard and eventually would force them out of the picture.

This is how terrorism in Punjab petered out. This might happen in Kashmir too. The time has come. Indis has to play the game carefully now.

Your comments please....