I am Ashamed and I Apologize

Reply #: 85

shammi

//...This set of voters is largely non-ideological and is not swayed by Hindutva. These voters are the least faithful of the BJP base . ...///

YOu are right. I think this set of voters are going to draw the line on the sand for BJP. There will be pressure on BJP to redeem their colossal mistake in gujrat. They got to reign in the VHP, settle ayodhya somehow, and concentrate on things they were supposed to do - governance and business. there will be yet another round of tussle between moderates and hawks and the mistake in Gujrat is going to help the moderates gain over the hardliners... hopefully. The entire country is apalled by the violence in Gujrat - we all thought that cynical communal politics of the Congress days is over.

The realists in BJP must grab this opportunity to reign in the hardliners and set the things straight. There are many in BJP capable of producing the results that is good for the country - people like Jaswant Singh, Pramod Mahajan, Yaswant Sinha etc. It would be a pity if these guys let the morons like those of VHP hijack the Party and its agenda. The mistake in Gujrat must be redeemed and soon.

If they fail - then BJP is going to cease to exist. The middle class voters who flocked to BJP in hope that it will be the ``party with a difference`` will be orphaned again. Their search for a party that is ready to do the right thing is going to start all over again.

But, I think the middle class voters are going to give BJP another chance, despite Gujrat. They are not yet ready to jump ship to Congress. The dynasty and its kitchen cabinet that rules that party is still alive and kicking.

I am sure at the height of Gujrat violence, many of the middle class voters would have thought: ``well - there we go again. So what now?? back to Congress or what??`` Which does give Congress a chance to jump back into the reckoning. I am not sure they are grabbing the the line. Unfortunately for them - they have lost two ( Scindia and Pilot) of the most promising players who had the charisma and ability to grab the chance for Congress. The other capable individuals are all state level actors ( Krishna, Digvijoy etc ). Likes of Manmohan Singh are capable but lack a political base.

We will wait and see. The politics of violence and cynicism has got to stop and got to stop now.

re:Reply #: 90

AlephNull,

Excellent post. I have crossed swords with the likes of Romair in the past and have found them intellectually dishonest. They do not cross-check the source before coming up with some incriminatory statements. They often do not learn from facts even if such facts are staring at them.

When we Indians saw and read about the pogrom in Gujarat, most of us saw this as something unacceptable and something that challenges India`s secular fabric. I atleast did not defend BJP`s actions in Gujarat even though until that time i was pro-BJP (at least i liked and still like its economic liberalisation policies). Today, i see BJP as the greatest threat to India`s existence unless it changes its policies and becomes truely secular.

I have yet to see Pakistanis criticise their military dictator (there are some who do that in subtle ways) even though it is obvious to me that this guy is taking his country to disaster. What do you call this if not intellectual dishonesty? Let us see how many Pakistanis today want this dictator out and how many want him to continue. How many posts by Pakistanis have we seen urging the dictator to declare general elections and let a civilian govt take over.

How many times should Pak face humiliation internationally because of this idiot. Agra was a fiasco because Mushy failed to agree that there was a ``cross border infiltration`` going on. Yet, today the international community has recognised his complicity and he is being forced to sing a different tune. Could he not have agreed to back away from supporting terrorists in Agra and thus come to a compromise with India and even signed a peace document? He could have but he did not. He was cheered by the home crowd (including people like Romair)even as he scored brownie points against ABV.

The same idiot derailed Lahore peace process and unleashed Kargil. Pakistanis declared him as strategically brilliant. Where is his brilliance today?

It requires a lot of intellectual honesty to call a spade a spade. I am afraid, barring a few people on the chowk, most do not have such honesty.

Sridhar

Re Bijli 83

``You are not atheist as you claim because you could not bear the thought God Ram as an imperfect human being like rest of us. You just love God Krishna`s childhood adventures ..don`t you. ``

You nincompoop. I don`t give a rat`s rear end what you think.

``Religion stalls progress. Religion is bad. Think about it.``

Couldn`t agree with you any more on this. And it applies more to the islamist/fundementalists who see the past as the way to the future.

temporal and sadna

Good article by Manoj Mitta.

In the last few months I really feel nothing but despair for India what it has become and what it has done to its own children. It is up to us to punish and prevent so atonement and healing can take place. It is always, always, always the enemy within.

-h-

Re: tahmed321

You did not really think about it my friend. You just thought of an argument to defend your beliefs and it is ok. Failure of USSR has not much to do with their communist beliefs agaist the religion as it has to do with wrong economic policies. Had USSR been wise in economic policies (say like the Chinese), it probably would not have collapsed.

If you think that making Religion a private affair in South Asia will bring collapse, then I feel pity for you. It takes time loger than 2 minutes to come of out of the invisible shell that is build by religious inputs that we get in our growing years. These beliefs are hard to get rid of as they we do not apply logic to them instead they become rules used to apply logic to other facts.

For example, I read in paper that some religious parties have files a case in Supreme Court of Pakistan to declare interest on any kind of loan as illegal. They are doing it because it`s written in Quran. This is a perfect example of bad application of an outdated rule which probably was very good in 7th century and made perfect sense.

sadna #82:

...thanks for the link...manoj says:

[...One of the reasons why Gujarat has happened the way it did is because the culprits of the 1984 massacre went scot-free. Civil society should try and break this cycle of violence by devising a strategy to track the progress of the investigations in Gujarat. And, of course, the long-term solution to the problem of political interference in investigations is to force the implementation of the 20-year-old recommendations of the National Police Commission aimed at professionalising the police force and making them more immune to extraneous factors....]

---notice the irony?...Modi `allowing` the victims to `register` a complaint against the murderers...

---we can cry ourselves hoarse arguing who should do what...will suggest that in the end the only thing that matters is if justice is meted out AND how soon...after delhi and bombay we should have been more vigilant to such abuses of power...anything else would be mere quibbling by us...

lve,

t

Romair #53

{I used to have quite a bit of respect for Vajpayee (even though I abhor the corrupt Fernandes and the evil Advani, and the BJP in general). However, ever since Vajpayee`s famous, all Muslims are troublemaker speech in Goa, I have lost all respect for him. It is understandable for Vajpayee to criticize an enemy Pakistan, but it is a completely different thing to make racist comments against a complete faith, and that too if 140 million of his own constituents practice that faith.}

Romair made similar remarks about Vajpayee`s controversial Panjim speech on another board as well. It just goes to show that one should be careful about one`s sources. For instance, Pakistani newspapers are notoriously unreliable reporters of events in India, what with the fantasies of Asghar Butt and such..The fact is that no Prime Minister of India - least of all, one heading government in coalition with several staunchly secular parties - could make remarks of the kind alleged by Romair and get away with it. Not yet, at least. And Vajpayee`s alleged bigoted remarks would be completely out of character with his behaviour during his half-century long political career.

I am providing a link to a translation of Vajpayee`s speech provided by Outlook India. [A glance at the other articles for which this online magazine provides links will indicate that it isn`t exactly a BJP or Sangh Parivar mouthpiece.]

The main link to the translation of Vajpayee`s speech by Sundeep Duggal is:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?sid=1&fodname=20020420&fname=atal

This actually covers three pages; the link to the second page, with the remarks on Islam, is:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020420&fname=atal&sid=1&pn=2

The text of the relevant remarks is reproduced below:

{{For us from Goa to Guwahati, it`s the same soil (maaTii ... the poet was rhyming it with Guwahati -- Ed). People living in this soil are one. We do not believe in religious fundamentalism. Today the nation is under threat from terrorism. Wherever I went, the rulers in power, elected rulers, complained that militant Islam is sowing thorns in their way.

Islam has two forms. One Islam is such that tolerates everyone, that preaches the path of truth, that teaches compassion and mercy (dayaa ... empathy?). But the Islam being taken for adopting militancy is such that does not have any space for tolerance. That goes on the slogans of jihad and dreams of casting the whole world in its mould.

You would be amazed to hear, and I too was amazed, that in Singapore some Al-qaida conspirators were caught. Singapore rulers could not even think that Al-qaida would be active in their country, that al-qaida would be conspiring in their country. 15-16 people were caught and the intelligence investigations are on so that the truth can be ascertained. This is happening in Indonesia. This is happening in Malaysia. Wherever there are such Muslims, they do not wish to live together, do not want to mix and mingle with others and instead of spreading their message peacefully, they want to spread their beliefs by terror, by fear, by threatening. The world has woken to this danger.

We have been fighting against terrorism for 20 years. The terrorists tried appropriating Jammu and Kashmir by violent means but we fought back. Jammu and Kashmir is a part of India and will remain a part of India. No other country`s dream shall be fulfilled. Now the nations of the world have realised what a big mistake they committed, how much they neglected and underplayed it. Now they are waking up, getting grouped together, forming an international coalition and agreement against terrorism.

We tell them by our example that we have a large number of non-Hindus in our country but there`s never been any religious repression in our country. We`ve never discriminated between our own and others. There may be different ways of worship, but there`s one God -- though there might be different paths to reach him. Therefore, India`s stature is getting enhanced, respect for India is growing.

I also had an opportunity to travel to other countries. Large numbers of Muslims live everywhere and the rulers of these countries are worried lest these Muslims might adopt the fundamentalist path. We`ve told them to impart proper knowledge of Islam. Teach sciences and other subjects in the madrassas. Teach Islam too. But teachings of co-existence, and non-propagation of faith by sword are very important.}}

So Vajpayee was clearly differentiating between Islam as a private path to serenity and right behaviour, and Islam as a militant political program that mandates violent jihad. India can clearly accomodate the first, tolerant Islam, with no trouble at all; whereas the second, political/jihadi Islam, is a mortal enemy of India to which no quarter should be given. Vajpayee`s remarks about Islam, in themselves, are IMO completely unobjectionable. So much for Romair`s disinformatsia.

What was objectionable was what Vajpayee left unsaid - namely, that violence against innocent Muslims citizens of India unleashed by alleged proponents of Hinduism is every bit as unacceptable as the jihadi Islam it claims to oppose but in fact grotesquely parodies. Had he said this - which he was quite capable of doing - he would have done India no disservice. His actual speech, unsatisfactory though it may have been, is not quite the masterpiece of bigotry that those of the Romair persuasion allege.

One other point: I must remind Romair that the `corrupt` Fernandes - whose alleged malfeasance has not been established - is not a member of the BJP. That, plus the fact that the Indian armed forces seem to like him, and that he is of Christian background, a perennial reminder of India`s secularism and a slap in the face of Pakistani sectarianism, and that he appears to be a hawk on Pakistan, is what seems to stick in the craw of Pakistani ideologues. If Fernandes annoys the Romairs, he has to be doing something right.

TO SOUTHERN BELE PYAR KIYE JA ....

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jun/10bihar1.htm

Gujarat Muslims want to settle down in Bihar: Laloo



Anand Mohan Sahay in Patna

The Rashtriya Janata Dal chief and former chief minister of Bihar Laloo Prasad Yadav claimed on Sunday that `fear stricken` Muslims of Gujarat have started arriving in Bihar to settle down permanently.

Yadav said that Gujarat Muslims preferred to settle down in Bihar for the security and communal harmony prevailing in the state.

Bihar has remained free of communal clashes for more than a decade under the rule of Yadav`s party, Rashtriya Janata Dal.

He said that the Muslims are not feeling secure in Gujarat under the rule of Narendra Modi, the Bharatiya Janata Party Chief Minister of Gujarat.

Laloo, now a Rajya Sabha Member of Parliament, said that a case should be started against Modi for his `role` in killing of Muslims.

He said a case should also be filed against Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee for `protecting` Modi and for his `failure` to save the lives of Muslims.

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Tell u

TO SOUTHERN BELE PYAR KIYE JA ....

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jun/10bihar1.htm

Gujarat Muslims want to settle down in Bihar: Laloo



Anand Mohan Sahay in Patna

The Rashtriya Janata Dal chief and former chief minister of Bihar Laloo Prasad Yadav claimed on Sunday that `fear stricken` Muslims of Gujarat have started arriving in Bihar to settle down permanently.

Yadav said that Gujarat Muslims preferred to settle down in Bihar for the security and communal harmony prevailing in the state.

Bihar has remained free of communal clashes for more than a decade under the rule of Yadav`s party, Rashtriya Janata Dal.

He said that the Muslims are not feeling secure in Gujarat under the rule of Narendra Modi, the Bharatiya Janata Party Chief Minister of Gujarat.

Laloo, now a Rajya Sabha Member of Parliament, said that a case should be started against Modi for his `role` in killing of Muslims.

He said a case should also be filed against Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee for `protecting` Modi and for his `failure` to save the lives of Muslims.

Back to top

Tell u

shailender #80 you write ``Religion stalls progress. Religion is bad. Think about it. ``

I`m thinking...I`m thinking...

OK I`m done thinking (took about 2 seconds of processing time). Here is what I thought: Take away religion from the subcontinent and imagine what happens...but why imagine...just consider what happened in Russia after religion was declared opium of the masses and officially taken away. And promptly replaced by an atheistic ideology that failed after 70 years of totalitarian rule, millions sent to siberia, millions killed. And now religion is back.

Draw your own conclusions from this. I have not drawn any since the entire issue is academic anyway.

may/june 2oo2

http://www.thesala.com/episode06/images/bottombanner06.gif



Kushanava Choudhury





Hindutva`s Foreign Hand





The killing fields of Gujarat seem a world away from the NRI utopias increasingly depicted by Bollywood films like Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham.

But the two are intimately linked. Gujarat is the trial lab of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad`s Hindutva experiment, and non-resident Indians, the largest number of whom have roots in Gujarat, are widely believed to be its primary funders.

?Ramjanmabhoomi has been an NRI-financed movement from the start,? says political psychologist Ashis Nandy, who has written extensively on the subject. The VHP has branches in 20 foreign countries, and affiliates in 50 nations across the world. In the USA, VHP America has been a registered tax-exempt, non-profit charitable organization since 1974, long before the birth of the BJP. Since then, it has raised $2.5 million (or roughly Rs 11.75 crore) for various social service activities in India, from Gujarat earthquake relief to support for families of Sikhs massacred in Kashmir. The organization claims to have 10,000 members. It`s youth wing, the Hindu Students Council - which runs Hindu summer camps, etc - claims a strength of 50,000. Given that life membership to VHP America costs $1,000 (or Rs 47,000), and the VHP neither has offices nor paid staff in the USA, the question is where does the money go? Not to India, assert VHP officials. ?We don`t take foreign funds,? says Balkrishna Naik, VHP`s international division joint-secretary in Delhi..

The VHP, along with the Bajrang Dal, are registered in India as charitable organizations. Since both conduct political activities, they must clear all foreign donations through the Home Ministry under the Foreign Contributions Regulation Act. Yet, MHA`s Foreigner Division director Sanjay Dutta states that neither VHP nor the Bajrang Dal has ever applied for FCRA clearance. According to the government, the VHP has not received one paisa of foreign aid. Instead, money raised abroad, says Naik, is sent to subsidiary Sangh Parivar NGOs such as Bharat Kalyan Pratisthan, Sewa Bharati, and others, which have FCRA clearance. There have been allegations that funds earmarked for charitable purposes are then diverted back to VHP for other activities.. In 1999, Congress leader, Kapil Sibal alleged that in 1997-98, of the Rs 2.70 crore raised by VHP, only Rs 10,101 was spent on charitable purposes. Sibal demanded a government investigation into VHP finances. No investigation took place.

As charitable organizations, both VHP and Bajrang Dal are required to provide an account of funds raised and total expenses to the Income Tax department. Independent sources reveal that in recent years, the Bajrang Dal has reported it has raised no funds at all. Some also believe that VHP also under-reports it`s annual total inflow of funds.

Yet, there appears to be no political will to investigate accounting irregularities.

VHP funding has not been investigated since the days of the VP Singh government. In 1989, the government discovered that VHP had received foreign funds for its Ramshila Puja. The funds had to be returned. Soon thereafter, the Income Tax department asked the VHP to furnish details of its accounts, and reveal the sources of its funds, including money transferred from other accounts, such as affiliated NGOs with FCRA clearance. VHP was ordered to freeze fund-raising temporarily.

The main investigator, deputy commissioner Vishwa Bandhu Gupta, found the VHP`s report had pages missing, and funds which were unaccounted.

Gupta wanted to know how and where funds raised abroad for building the Ram temple at Ayodhya where being channelled into the VHP without FCRA permission. ?He had circumstantial evidence that there were lots of irregularities,? says Anand Patwardhan, who interviewed Gupta for his documentary - In the Name of God - on the Ramjanmabhoomi movement.

Midway through, Gupta was transferred to Chennai and subsequently suspended. The investigation was dropped.

In the past few years, much has been made by the Hindu Right (including statements by now Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi) over the need to toughen the FCRA. The criminal act was initially introduced during the Emergency, mainly to curtail the pro-democracy Jayaprakash Narayan movement in Bihar.. Now, the BJP claims that lax FCRA regulations are enabling the ?foreign hand? to spread Christianity and abet ?anti-national? organizations. In reality, most groups that receive funding through FCRA are development agencies. Only six per cent of foreign funds are received by religious groups. The largest recipients are non-VHP affiliated Hindu groups such as groups devoted to the Maharishi and Sai Baba, not Christians. On the contrary, several women`s NGOs have been targeted by the MHA (during LK Advani`s term) under FCRA, for alleged political, and ?anti-national? activities.. The NGOs have criticised the government`s record on women`s issues.

In reality, none of the fundamentalist religious organizations - Hindu or Muslim - use the FCRA route to receive funds. Most funds come either through hawala channels, or as in the case of the VHP in Gujarat, through the internal finances of joint families with members both here and abroad. Because of a long tradition of sea-route contact with Africa, Gujarat has a millennia-old remittance channel. ?Money has come through unofficial channels for 2000 years. FEMA (the FCRA equivalent for the corporate sector) was always meaningless for Gujaratis,? says Achyut Yagnik, a social activist in Ahmedabad who has written about the rise of Hindutva.

Following the VHP money trail in Gujarat is quite difficult primarily because funds are transferred from NRIs to native Gujaratis within the extended business family structure, which is still common in Gujarat.

?Every upper caste Gujarati has NRI links,? says Yagnik, ?People are always coming and going.? Money is transferred across continents from brother to brother (on which the Indian government has no regulations) and then contributed - often in cash - to the VHP, Bajrang Dal or various affiliate organizations. Says Yagnik, ?It should never be thought of as just VHP. It`s a hydra. You cut off one head and another appears.? No one knows how much is really transferred through these channels. It is impossible to trace, and impossible to stop.

Hindutva holds an eerie appeal among the over one million Gujaratis in UK and USA. It`s not just the VHP, support for extremist groups like the LTTE in Sri Lanka or the IRA in Northern Ireland comes largely from expatriates in First World countries. ?Expatriates are always more aggressively and pathologically nationalistic,? says Nandy.

Part of it is that many go abroad and are treated as second-class citizens, and seek self-esteem within an imagined national identity. In traditional Gujarat, identity was largely constituted by caste. But abroad, one is forced to leave one`s limited caste community. No longer simply Kutchis or Baniyas or Gujaratis, religion and nation gel as one`s main identity as many embrace a strident nationalism in Hindutva.

In addition, NRIs often fear that they may be becoming too modern, too Western. ?They`re eating beef at McDonalds and then thinking they`re losing their Hindu roots,? says Nandy, ?Hindutva is a bogus ideology that takes advantage of their alienation, and feeds their desperate attempt to cling on to what they think is Hinduism.? Increasingly these alienations from traditional bonds and the anxieties about modern and Western influences are finding expression among Gujarat`s rising urban middle class as well. Following the example of their NRI brethren, Gujarat`s middle class, has increasingly embraced Hindutva.

Gujarat has traditionally been a state divided along caste lines. The state`s Hindus comprise Brahmins, Patidars (such as Patels, formerly Sudras who have used their upper class status as wealthy farmers and traders to negotiate a higher caste standing), Baniyas (the trader caste) and Dalits. Modern Hindu fundamentalism was initially a high caste movement. Now, aside from the Brahmin base, it draws from all sections of the middle class - from upper caste aspirants like the Patidars and the Vaishnavite Baniyas, as well as middle class Dalits, all seeking to transcend their caste stigma. For the middle class, caste identities have not dissolved, but rather are now supplemented by the broader religious identity.

?The middle class has one foot in caste and one in religion,? says Yagnik.

In fact, in 1985, the first major communal riot in recent decades started on caste lines as anti-reservation agitation and then took on a communal flavour. Since then, there have been riots in Ahmedabad in `86, `87, `89, `90 and `92. The subsequent transfer of a MM Mehta, who had built a reputation for controlling riots in Vadodara, as Commissioner of Police, and the BJP`s successful rise to state power, may have been contributing factors for the long peace. Apart from occasional communal flare-ups, the city witnessed no major violence for a decade.

But the conversion of the Hindu middle class was well underway. In the last decade, Muslim shops and homes have slowly been pushed into the old city`s Muslim ghettos. The police and bureaucracy, civil society as a whole, have become ideologically committed to Hindu fundamentalism.

?Since 1990, you can see the change in the middle class,? says Yagnik.

?People begin to even omit green from their clothing and their interior designs. A new mindset developed, especially in the new generation, raised (during the riots) in the 1980s.? The VHP claims it now has seven lakh members in the state, and lakhs more sympathisers.

With 30 cities that have a 100,000 plus population, barring Delhi, Gujarat is India`s most urbanised state. Urbanisation and industrialisation everywhere have given rise to a large, affluent middle class, but also anxiety and hatred. Since 1947, over 96 per cent of deaths in communal riots have taken place in cities, where less than one third of Indians live. The Hindutva campaign has always been more successful in urban India, severed from the traditional bonds of village life, where a vast majority of Hindus and Muslims still lead inter-dependent lives. Now in Gujarat as extensive family and business ties link cities to villages, rural areas too are increasingly embracing modern affluence and Hindu-nationalist violence in equal measure. ?The key factor in Gujarat is not the money,? says Yagnik, ?its that the middle class has found an identity in Hindutva.?

Kushanava Choudhury is a regular contributor to the SALA. This piece also appeared in The Statesman, a Kolkata-based newspap

Re: Zafar Al Talib on BJP`s voter segmentation

Zafar, your second voter segment (People who were disgusted with the years of Congress Raj)has swung to the BJP in the `90s principally as a result of the failed center-left coalitions (VP Singh, Chandrashekhar, Gowda, Gujral, etc). This is the small, yet opinion-setting and influential urban intelligentsia which would have been completely comfortable voting for Nehru`s fabian socialism in the `60s when it was in vogue, but no longer buys the Congress party line on a socialist, command/control economy, Non-Alignment, abuses of States` rights, and will vote for any party that means business for the middle class. This set of voters is largely non-ideological and is not swayed by Hindutva. These voters are the least faithful of the BJP base (I am reminded of the Reagan Democrats), and can switch sides quite easily. What is keeping them from defecting to the Congress is Sonya Gandhi. Perpetuating dynastic rule is anathema to them, as is the role of any government that is reckless and foolish enough to threaten their life style through Gujarat-style pogroms.

There is one factor that I believe you missed to mention -- and that is the role of the press (which largely echoed the sentiments of this voter segment). I recall that in the `80s, the press (in the absence of private electronic media) was absolutely merciless in berating the Rajiv govt. over Bofors, Shah Bano case and Mandalization. The BJP had a miniscule representation in Parliament. It would be fair to say that the BJP rode to power as much due to the utter inability of the Congress/Left govts. to defend themselves against charges of corruption, and `pseudo` secularism as it did due to the Mandir issue. The fact that all these trend-setting events took place within a short 3

Zafar Post 61

A very astute analysis on the BJP`s support base. I am surprised, becuase I had never really thought of it myself, and yet, when I read your post, it all just made perfect sense.

By thw way, are you familiar with the Swaraj party? If that party had been allowed to exist, instead of being demonized by the leftists, we would have had a secular AND rightist alternative to the Congress.

What was your major BTW? U went to school in DC right?

#: 80

shailender

Re: Impostor aka Rdesikan

You are not atheist as you claim because you could not bear the thought God Ram as an imperfect human being like rest of us. You just love God Krishna`s childhood adventures ..don`t you. As far as your modification to my original text is concerned, I do not agree to that. Problem is not with God or thought of it. If someone needs to strengthen his/her will by believing in God he/she can do it. They can picture it as Ram or Christ or does not picture it at all. The problem lies with billions of stupid muslim people who need to refer a 7th century text to distinguish between right and wrong. Unfortunately formal education of years cannot do it for these people. Strange it is but it it`s true. You see it everywhere. Same goes for moron Hindus who cannot free themselves from the burnt-in thoughts of their minds that all the characters in the great storybooks existed. Fools, these texts were written by some human like you and me. God does not write stories or pick one human and tell him to go and tell everyone else what he thinks. If there is God, he has lot more to think about then lives of humans.

I sincerely believe that if you take out religion from Indo-Pak politics (forget the bases of creation of Pak etc. and move on), South asia would be lot more progressive and peaceful place to live in.

Religion stalls progress. Religion is bad. Think about it.

..............................

Rdesikan

Shailender is not my alter Ego.

To me it quirt possiblr be YLH fertile imagination sitting dping nothing in hot humid Lahorie heat wave commonly known as `loooh`

temporal #72
``LAW AND ORDER must prevail…justice should be seen `alive`…should be meted out to the perpetrators…"

Most definitely. This is one of the things for which KPS Gill has gone to Gujarat, amazing.
This would give you a picture of how things are :( :
http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=2750
In Gujarat, keep vigil

``the modus operandi vis a vis the police chain of command does not matter``
It does matter. In addition to ensuring punitive justice is served for past acts, there are weaknesses in the law enforcement structure which need to be urgently corrected to guard against future events. Almost everyone who has reported on Gujarat is asking for implementation of the National Police Commission report recommendations for police reform.

dost-mittar #76
I agree with what you say.

``I am afraid local control of police would make matters worse. The local political thugs in affected areas (whether Gujarat `02 or Delhi `84) are usually the worst culprits and are bound to have greater influence over locally controlled police.``

The local police in Delhi and Gujarat were reporting to their seniors (in the state capital in the case of Gujarat and perhaps to the police chief reporting to the LtG in the case of Delhi), not to the citizens in the locality they were policing, nor to the local representatives in that locality. The neighbourhood thugs who influenced them could do so because they (the thugs) had protectors in the state capital as well, and hence both the police and the thugs got away with their biased criminal activities. It happens all the time in Kerala, when the CPM cadres commit many more murders when the LDF is in power. My point was merely that the linkages to bosses elsewhere might have been weaker and local compulsions might have been stronger if it was not the state government but the city government who paid their salaries through their local taxes.

But the National Police Commission reports have apparently gone the other way and recommended even more autonomy and freedom from interference for the state police.
http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF53.htm

``.. On 15 November 1977, the Government of India’s Ministry of Home Affairs appointed a National Police Commission (NPC) to examine all aspects of the Indian Police Service and to “re-define the role, duties, powers and responsibilities of the police”. From 1979 to 1981, the NPC made numerous far-reaching and promising recommendations concerning the functions, procedures and perceptions of the police force in India and the Indian system of justice in general. The NPC produced a total of eight reports; the eighth and concluding report proposed a new Police Act to replace the Police Act of 1861. Now almost 20 years after the publication of the NPC’s concluding report, the state of the Indian police remains as before. India’s state and union governments show no signs of implementing any of the recommendations.

One of the most notable efforts to promote police reform was made by former Uttar Pradesh police chief Prakash Singh. In the case of Prakash Singh vs Union of India (writ petition 310 of 1996), Singh called on the government to implement the recommendations of the NPC and the National Human Rights Commission. Four specific issues were raised in the petition: (1) creation of a State Security Commission; (2) adoption of a fixed tenure for the police chief; (3) separation of the law and order and investigative branches of the police force; and (4) introduction of a new Police Bill.

In the Prakash Singh case, the Supreme Court ordered the Government of India to establish a Sub-Committee, headed by Julio Ribeiro, to examine the main themes of NPC’s recommendations. The terms of the Sub-Committee were detailed in MHA Memo No. 11018/1/98-PMA dated 25 May 1998. Some NGOs worked with the committee to review and perfect the NPC recommendations. Four years after the formation of the Ribeiro Committee, however, no tangible results are in sight. The Supreme Court, having completed its hearings on the petition over a year-and-a-half ago, has reserved its judgement.

Hard questions need to be asked in the wake of the Gujarat tragedy: hard questions about the character – and future – of a democracy that permits the blatant and consistent disregard of the rule of law by its own law enforcement agencies. Serious consideration must be given to the NPC reports and recommendations – this is a seemingly obvious point of departure, but one that has surprisingly found no mention either in government circles or in the media. It would constitute the first step toward the reconceptualisation of the Indian police as a protective force that can be relied on and expected to provide safety to persons under threat, regardless of their religious status or political preferences. To have a citizen plead with the police to come and save his life is a disgrace to the democratic culture that Indians lay claim to...``

re: hamidm

{...... have imaginary muslim ``friends`` ....... }

...if you can have imaginary friends named sunil, why can`t i have imaginary friends named kasar and nadim?...