I am Ashamed and I Apologize

Shammi #68 to hamidm: ``Precisely how do you tell a Hindu from a Muslim in a gathering of 1500 without specifically asking them? Curious``

Ever wonder why hamidm attacks the fridge after coming back from a party? He spends his time collecting such data from these people in parties when he should be eating and drinking.

Re: Impostor aka Rdesikan

You are not atheist as you claim because you could not bear the thought God Ram as an imperfect human being like rest of us. You just love God Krishna`s childhood adventures ..don`t you. As far as your modification to my original text is concerned, I do not agree to that. Problem is not with God or thought of it. If someone needs to strengthen his/her will by believing in God he/she can do it. They can picture it as Ram or Christ or does not picture it at all. The problem lies with billions of stupid muslim people who need to refer a 7th century text to distinguish between right and wrong. Unfortunately formal education of years cannot do it for these people. Strange it is but it it`s true. You see it everywhere. Same goes for moron Hindus who cannot free themselves from the burnt-in thoughts of their minds that all the characters in the great storybooks existed. Fools, these texts were written by some human like you and me. God does not write stories or pick one human and tell him to go and tell everyone else what he thinks. If there is God, he has lot more to think about then lives of humans.

I sincerely believe that if you take out religion from Indo-Pak politics (forget the bases of creation of Pak etc. and move on), South asia would be lot more progressive and peaceful place to live in.

Religion stalls progress. Religion is bad. Think about it.

Hamid man

Au contraire - I differ with you regarding eating habits. My observation says Pakis eat beef and beef and then some lamb and chicken. We in the south have Fish of various kinds, Beef , lamb, chicken ,game and sometimes salami and ham as well.

Regarding the Imam of the Delhi mosque he needs to be kicked to Bukhara and if the Central Asians or may be Suadi Arabia .

Tahmed,

When I say integrating our principles into actions, I mean take your brilliance to the road and start organizing (if you don`t, already)...I understand what you are saying. But I`m also trying to work this question out for myself. If you don`t mind, I`d like to use you as a sounding board, and run some questions by you?

Kissinger? I don`t dislike him because he`s a Western politician (where on earth did you get that idea? :))...I dislike him for Vietnam, etc. I find it difficult to engage with anything that man has to say...sorry..

Oof Hamid, You`re damned lucky you are so funny-which points to your having an actual soul. (Don`t deny it, yaar, accept your little lighthouse of a heart!)

shammi

``Precisely how do you tell a Hindu from a Muslim in a gathering of 1500 without specifically asking them``

... to be perfectly honest, it is not a perfect science .... of course the red dot and the sideways head wag is a dead giveaway ...... the anemic look, the wicked ``makaar`` smile, the sour demeanor, and the upside down swastikas on the forehead can also identify a horible hindoo ..... the knife in the armpit remains the litmus test ......... other than that, it can be difficult to tell an indian muslim from a regular indian ..... there are other good muslims who claim that they have no trouble identifying one of them -`` un kay cheharay per noor nahin hota`` ..... i am not sure exactly what noor is - some kind of a halo, i guess ........

...... but regardless, it does seem to me that just as most white folks who claim that `` many of my best friends are niggers, oops afro-americans``, most indian hindoos have imaginary muslim ``friends`` ....... at least i have never met any hindoos at the smaller gatherings of hyderabadis and gujratis that i find myself at .....and at work they will seek out pakis to torment them with inviatations to juma prayers and tales of carnage in ahmedabad - shoo! go away, i don`t care ...... i`d rather spend time with sunil .....

THOUGHTS ON JUSTICE

luenoon26 #65:

[…I think the one of the most important lessons is NOT being learnt from the communal killings that has been happening every once in a while in India. And that lesson is - we have got to have independent and efficient law enforcement agencies at various levels of administration…]

and

tahmed321 # 69:

[…But what can one do…]

:)….you are doing fine…just keep the burner warm and keep raising the issue everywhere and everytime you get a chance and read on…

and scout 62 and sadna 71 and samina dear:

_________________________________________________


...first a quote from an earlier post…

[...the concerned citizens should see to it that, unlike the past, this time legal justice is meted out to the perpetrators of both godhra and gujrat...only when peace and sensibility prevails confidence of the constituents will return...otherwise the fabric of the state and society as we know would be further strained...]

…the modus vivendi has to undergo a drastic change…

..the modus operandi vis a vis the police chain of command does not matter…and though am not comparing the killing-fields of gujrat with the ongoing sectarian and ethnic violence in sindh and punjab…but the same holds true in ALL situations…LAW AND ORDER must prevail…justice should be seen `alive`…should be meted out to the perpetrators…

…unless that happens all of us would bleed humanity…we would continue to be a little less human…a little less insaan…

lve & rgds,

t


ps: rsridhar #67:

…well said…agree…

bluenoon26 #65
One essential difference between Indian and US police forces is their chain of command. In the US, the police force is an arm of the local government, they are hired by and their salaries paid for by local government and local taxpayers. In India, its the state government to which all police is accountable. Even if the police force is efficient, political interference undermines their effectiveness, this complaint has been made even by Mumbai police in pursuing gangsters and smugglers.

In situation like say Ahmedabad, a politician at a safe distance would be issuing orders to `look the other way` due to looking for supposed political mileage at a macro level. But if the police had been under command of the local government, the microlevel pressures on the local government like local businessmen losing business or property to riots and violence as well as their accountability to the local public for law and order in the next local elections; these factors would influence the police to clamp down decisively on violence. Right now municipality officials representing local interests are out of the law and order loop if I am right.

There may be times and situations when centralized command of police forces makes sense. But I think in designated urban areas, we should make the police force accountable to local/city government.

saminashah #52 you write about ``our responsibilties as witnesses in remembering and honoring the people in these kinds of inhumane situations ``. I think that talk about honoring people who died in the terrible manner in Gujrat (as per pictures that Drumz provided a link to) belittles the suffering they had to endure. The faces of these people tell the story loud and clear - a middle aged woman, her mouth wide open as if locked in place as she died screaming in pain and terror; the numbed look of an 8 year old child who watched her parents and siblings burn to death, and who herself is covered with bandages; the middle aged man with burn marks from the acid thrown on his face before he was mercifully (!!) burnt to death; the young mother who was sexually assaulted and then burnt to death. OK - I lied. I cannot switch off these images from my mind. Just as I cannot switch off the stories I have heard of 1947, or even of the people who died in the ``conventional wars`` or 1965 and 1971.

But what can one do - do I go to Gujrat and do to the b!stards what they did to these people? Wont happen - I cant even get mad at the perpetrators, the skinny young men, jeering and laughing in their pictures on the web page Drumz posted, as they no doubt did while their victims screamed with pain and terror. These b!stards somehow dont seem worth getting mad at. Do I pray for the souls of the victims? I dont think they need my prayers, although I would probably feel better myself. And they are certainly going to be oblivious to any monuments that may be built in their memory - although even that is not about to happen.

The one thing I can do is to realize the type of thinking that makes it possible for someone to douse kerosene on an 8 year old and strike a match, or to tie a family together and then strike a match. That is the thinking of the self-righteous, the one who denies the humanity of other individuals, the ideologue, or the merely subhuman.

And yes I mentioned the article by Kissinger. Because the article was well balanced and objective, and it would not doubt cause offense to both the Indian and Pakistani chauvinists on chowk. Why do you seem disappointed that I should refer approvingly to something Kissinger wrote? I know it is politically incorrect to refer approvingly to a western establishment figure among many ``intellectuals`` in India and Pakistan.

````and why do we care?

.... i can`t even begin to understand the indian muslims - what makes them tick? .... i don`t have the foggiest idea how they fare in india - i don`t really care, never been there, and have no desire to either - but they seem to be a little confused and lost in america .....````(hamidm)

Exactly -- why should you care? -- did we ask you to -- when did we do that?

hamid miaN -- you don`t have to care a thing about the Indian Muslims.

If you CAN -- just take care of YOURSELF -- and the rest will take care of -- by itself.

True indeed -- you dont have the foggiest idea how they fare in India -- if you did -- you wouldn`t have made such a sorry mess of yourself and your relationships.

As a Pakistani Muslim -- I am sure you have met lots of veggieless Indian Muslims -- now for a change you need to meet some Muslim Indians -- too.

btw -- the Muslim Indians love to put some heeng in their daals:-)



Regarding getting confused and ``lost in America`` -- tell me -- who is not lost in this -- ``land of anxieties`` -- called Uuuunighted States?

The anxious south asian asking the anxious american -- how to get there?

Here is an urduish couplet of mine for your englishly enlightened mind:

iss ``dayare muuztarib`` meiN sub haiN ghabraye hooway/hum kareiN ubb kissey apne dil ke ghabraane kee baat

subha bukahir

oh my God it`s 2:30 am

hamidm

with respect, I think perhaps you cannot recognize a ``horrible heengi`` Hindoo (HHH) if you were hit on the head with one - which might explain why you can`t seem to discover any at these dos !!

The only wedding I have been to in the US was a Paki girl & Indian (muslim) boy do and I spent the whole evening at the mehendi denying I was from Lahore. Let me tell you I also spent the whole evening fighting tears (of homesickness) listening to the UP bana-bani songs (funny in Delhi my friends ladies sangeets are all kala-doria, charkha chandan da, pehlwaans from multan shawa shawa punjabi stuff that I only got 33% of).



At the wedding all the grooms friends were (gasp) only us HHHs - no pakis and no indian muslims even.

Re: Hamidm

``...but didn`t get a whiff of heeng...``

Precisely how do you tell a Hindu from a Muslim in a gathering of 1500 without specifically asking them? Curious

re: temples in India

If anyone has visited old temples in India, one thing is very striking. All these temples are badly in need of patrons. Most of them are in advanced stage of decay. The purohits are poor souls just eking out a living with few caring for their welfare.

I visited Kashi Vishwanath temple. There is something about most hindus that is baffling. They are so emotional when someone criticises their religion. But go to Kashi Vishwanath temple and you will realise how badly maintained this temple is. The same is true for Puri Jagannath, Badrinath etc. There is no effort to clean the premises. Lepers and beggars abound near Kashi temple (at least in the 80s when i visited that place). Pan-spitting people are not uncommon and add to the misery of the place. The place has a distinct smell of decay.

When such is the case with most temples of repute in India, why do VHP, RSS and other goons insist on building yet another temple in India? Why do they not take the responsibility of cleaning up some of these temples and donate money for their maintainence. It is all about vote bank politics. Ram was never the issue.

Sridhar

re: reply #: 44

shailender,

Even though muslims in India will strenghen the hands of secular elements by allowing construction of Ram temple at the Ayodhya site (thereby putting an end to the controversy), make no mistake, VHP and Shiv Sena and other militant outfits will invent another controversy. They may target a mosque in Mathura next. You need to understand the ideology of RSS and Sangh Parivar. For these people, muslims in India do not belong. They (the Sangh Parivar) live in a world of their own creation. Their`s is a dangerous world, not much different from the world that Nazis created for themselves in the 30s in Germany and in which Jews were completely excluded. The only thing that is stopping them is the huge number of secular elements (the majority of who are hindus)who do not subscribe to their ideology. BJP has just not managed to garner enough votes so far. In this, i am indebted to the age old caste system which seem to have at least one benefit viz in dividing the hindu votes along caste lines so that BJP will never romp home with a majority.

Ram is not a role model? I will not comment on that. But i can tell you onething. If you are truely spiritual (and not just religious), you will realise that you do not need a temple to worship. All you need is a quiet corner in your house to meditate on the form of Ram or any other God you care to worship. That is why all this talk about building a temple for Ram is so much humbug.

Sridhar

I think the one of the most important lessons is NOT being learnt from the communal killings that has been happening every once in a while in India. And that lesson is - we have got to have independent and efficient law enforcement agencies at various levels of administration.

Imagine a godhra-like incident happening in US and how it would have been tackled. Say, a bunch of african-american hoodlums set fire to a train full of white supremacists at a Misissipi train station. Immediately fire brigrades and police would be on the scene - the fire would have been put out immediately with very few casualties, if at all - the hoodlums would have been arrested on spot, cases would have been filed the next day and trials over within weeks and criminals put behind bar. This gives no excuse to white rednecks to go on rampage. Even if they do - they too would be arrested and put behind bars. No mass killings - no large scale loss of lives.

This is how it happened in 1992 Rodney King riots in LA. It was as ferocious as Godhra-Gujarat riots but the resulting loss of lives was less than 50.

Now replace black hoodlums with muslim hoodlums of godhra and VHP-RSS-BJP goons with White rednecks of Gujrat - you have a more or less perfect match. Yet, a huge difference in the outcome. Because - the only thing that is missing from the picture is super-efficient police forces that they have in US. Compare them to the lathi-wielding/pan chewing nincompoops who pass as law-enforcement perosnnel in India. These guys are not even fit for a janitors job but they have been entrusted with the most important job that any administration does have.

And this is because of the fact that the citizenry in India is totally missing what is glaringly obvious. There is no outcry for reform in police setup - not from the masses, not from the intelligentsia, not from the enlighted elements inside/outside the administration, not from the enlightened elements in the political setup. All that we see is - more and more holier-than-thou speeches, arm-chair theories about communal harmony, peace marches, high pitched condemnations etc. etc. Not that these things are not important but they don`t do much to change the situation on ground. The communal outbreaks keep happening. Everytime that happens - more of the same speeches are dished out. As if the thugs who do this really care about such speeches. No attempt was ever being made how to stop this once and forever.

There will always be fascist/criminal elements in any society , more so in a country like India. Even today in US - there is no dearth of white supremacists, rednecks, KKK members, jew-hating, black-hating thugs. At a higher level - Ashcroft is every bit as evil as Advani. Southern Baptist Church is every bit as fascist as VHP. But they are all kept in tight leash. How?? again - independent and efficient police forces. How did they get such a efficient system?? Because the citizens demand it.

Every once a while there is news about killings of jews/blacks, bombing of synagogues, jewish cemeteries. But something like

Godhra-Gujrat can never happen in US. The only thing that stands between the scum and the society is a super-efficient police force. Without that - no amount of do-gooder speeches, condemnations, arm-chair peace-mongering, placard-wielding rallies ( even though these are important in their own way ) is going to stop the criminals who have lost their humanity.

These people will always looks for ways to have a go at the society. We have got to get the system that would effectively keep the lid on these guys.

BJP is going to pay for its follies at the next ballot. If it keeps doing these mistakes -it might even cease to exist as a political force. But that wouldn`t stop such incidents happening again because you can never completely eliminate the scum from the society - but you can definitely keep them under check. The only way to do that is to build an independent, impartial, efficient police force. India has to do that - and do that now.

Ironically - the only party that had ``police reforms`` as one of its objectives in its election manifesto is ... BJP.

There are balanced voices in the media in the west making themselves heard after all. Reporters are beginning to write about the role of India in the crisis in the subcontinent.

An editorial from the Seattle Times has this to say:

``(Musharraf) wants to rid Pakistan of terrorists and many Muslim fundamentalists — a nearly impossible task — to get on with the job of building his country into a democratic and modern Islamic nation. He is having elections in October for the parliament, from which will be selected a prime minister to head the government.

He is very determined and very straight — unusually so for a politician, especially a Pakistani politician. Pakistan has been plagued with leaders that have not been so — I have known many of them over the past 30 years.``

He goes on to say:

``Why would India want to go to war? Probably the overwhelming reason is its Hindu nationalist government has never accepted Pakistan as a reality and always wanted to eliminate it.``

Complete article at:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/134467029_indiapakistan04.html

The LATimes has an editorial that points out:

``In fact, India has been playing the U.S. like a violin throughout this crisis. It is getting from Washington the carte blanche it seeks, which is to advance the agenda in regard to Kashmir that India has sought for years.``

Complete article at:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-000038690jun02.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Dopinions

And the Independent has this to say:

``...that it is Mr Vajpayee who is primarily responsible for having provoked this grave and dangerous confrontation. He has cynically exploited the rhetoric of George Bush`s war against terrorism to rouse nationalist indignation against Kashmiri separatists, and he was at it again yesterday.``

Complete article at: http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=301639

DRUMZ,

that website you posted was all fake....don`t you know India claims to be a large secular democracy and a land of new opportunity and growth. how could this self proclaimed secular democracy allow ethnic/religious cleansing to occur under the nose of the government?

in all fairness though, Muslims have killed off Hindus in India`s history too, there`s too much thirst for blood in the subcontinent`s history, South Asians have to learn to be more civilized and not kill each other off, or threaten to kill each other constantly as Pakistan and India do.

I just hope some idiot doesn`t push the nuclear button.

I wish we were more like Jews, which I consider a community consisting of many cultures... more than a religious group, constantly protecting and empowering one another.

Let`s learn our lessons and educate ourselves in the ways of civilized people.