I am Ashamed and I Apologize

re: reply #: 44

shailender,

Even though muslims in India will strenghen the hands of secular elements by allowing construction of Ram temple at the Ayodhya site (thereby putting an end to the controversy), make no mistake, VHP and Shiv Sena and other militant outfits will invent another controversy. They may target a mosque in Mathura next. You need to understand the ideology of RSS and Sangh Parivar. For these people, muslims in India do not belong. They (the Sangh Parivar) live in a world of their own creation. Their`s is a dangerous world, not much different from the world that Nazis created for themselves in the 30s in Germany and in which Jews were completely excluded. The only thing that is stopping them is the huge number of secular elements (the majority of who are hindus)who do not subscribe to their ideology. BJP has just not managed to garner enough votes so far. In this, i am indebted to the age old caste system which seem to have at least one benefit viz in dividing the hindu votes along caste lines so that BJP will never romp home with a majority.

Ram is not a role model? I will not comment on that. But i can tell you onething. If you are truely spiritual (and not just religious), you will realise that you do not need a temple to worship. All you need is a quiet corner in your house to meditate on the form of Ram or any other God you care to worship. That is why all this talk about building a temple for Ram is so much humbug.

Sridhar

re: temples in India

If anyone has visited old temples in India, one thing is very striking. All these temples are badly in need of patrons. Most of them are in advanced stage of decay. The purohits are poor souls just eking out a living with few caring for their welfare.

I visited Kashi Vishwanath temple. There is something about most hindus that is baffling. They are so emotional when someone criticises their religion. But go to Kashi Vishwanath temple and you will realise how badly maintained this temple is. The same is true for Puri Jagannath, Badrinath etc. There is no effort to clean the premises. Lepers and beggars abound near Kashi temple (at least in the 80s when i visited that place). Pan-spitting people are not uncommon and add to the misery of the place. The place has a distinct smell of decay.

When such is the case with most temples of repute in India, why do VHP, RSS and other goons insist on building yet another temple in India? Why do they not take the responsibility of cleaning up some of these temples and donate money for their maintainence. It is all about vote bank politics. Ram was never the issue.

Sridhar

Re: Hamidm

``...but didn`t get a whiff of heeng...``

Precisely how do you tell a Hindu from a Muslim in a gathering of 1500 without specifically asking them? Curious

hamidm

with respect, I think perhaps you cannot recognize a ``horrible heengi`` Hindoo (HHH) if you were hit on the head with one - which might explain why you can`t seem to discover any at these dos !!

The only wedding I have been to in the US was a Paki girl & Indian (muslim) boy do and I spent the whole evening at the mehendi denying I was from Lahore. Let me tell you I also spent the whole evening fighting tears (of homesickness) listening to the UP bana-bani songs (funny in Delhi my friends ladies sangeets are all kala-doria, charkha chandan da, pehlwaans from multan shawa shawa punjabi stuff that I only got 33% of).



At the wedding all the grooms friends were (gasp) only us HHHs - no pakis and no indian muslims even.

````and why do we care?

.... i can`t even begin to understand the indian muslims - what makes them tick? .... i don`t have the foggiest idea how they fare in india - i don`t really care, never been there, and have no desire to either - but they seem to be a little confused and lost in america .....````(hamidm)

Exactly -- why should you care? -- did we ask you to -- when did we do that?

hamid miaN -- you don`t have to care a thing about the Indian Muslims.

If you CAN -- just take care of YOURSELF -- and the rest will take care of -- by itself.

True indeed -- you dont have the foggiest idea how they fare in India -- if you did -- you wouldn`t have made such a sorry mess of yourself and your relationships.

As a Pakistani Muslim -- I am sure you have met lots of veggieless Indian Muslims -- now for a change you need to meet some Muslim Indians -- too.

btw -- the Muslim Indians love to put some heeng in their daals:-)



Regarding getting confused and ``lost in America`` -- tell me -- who is not lost in this -- ``land of anxieties`` -- called Uuuunighted States?

The anxious south asian asking the anxious american -- how to get there?

Here is an urduish couplet of mine for your englishly enlightened mind:

iss ``dayare muuztarib`` meiN sub haiN ghabraye hooway/hum kareiN ubb kissey apne dil ke ghabraane kee baat

subha bukahir

oh my God it`s 2:30 am

saminashah #52 you write about ``our responsibilties as witnesses in remembering and honoring the people in these kinds of inhumane situations ``. I think that talk about honoring people who died in the terrible manner in Gujrat (as per pictures that Drumz provided a link to) belittles the suffering they had to endure. The faces of these people tell the story loud and clear - a middle aged woman, her mouth wide open as if locked in place as she died screaming in pain and terror; the numbed look of an 8 year old child who watched her parents and siblings burn to death, and who herself is covered with bandages; the middle aged man with burn marks from the acid thrown on his face before he was mercifully (!!) burnt to death; the young mother who was sexually assaulted and then burnt to death. OK - I lied. I cannot switch off these images from my mind. Just as I cannot switch off the stories I have heard of 1947, or even of the people who died in the ``conventional wars`` or 1965 and 1971.

But what can one do - do I go to Gujrat and do to the b!stards what they did to these people? Wont happen - I cant even get mad at the perpetrators, the skinny young men, jeering and laughing in their pictures on the web page Drumz posted, as they no doubt did while their victims screamed with pain and terror. These b!stards somehow dont seem worth getting mad at. Do I pray for the souls of the victims? I dont think they need my prayers, although I would probably feel better myself. And they are certainly going to be oblivious to any monuments that may be built in their memory - although even that is not about to happen.

The one thing I can do is to realize the type of thinking that makes it possible for someone to douse kerosene on an 8 year old and strike a match, or to tie a family together and then strike a match. That is the thinking of the self-righteous, the one who denies the humanity of other individuals, the ideologue, or the merely subhuman.

And yes I mentioned the article by Kissinger. Because the article was well balanced and objective, and it would not doubt cause offense to both the Indian and Pakistani chauvinists on chowk. Why do you seem disappointed that I should refer approvingly to something Kissinger wrote? I know it is politically incorrect to refer approvingly to a western establishment figure among many ``intellectuals`` in India and Pakistan.

bluenoon26 #65
One essential difference between Indian and US police forces is their chain of command. In the US, the police force is an arm of the local government, they are hired by and their salaries paid for by local government and local taxpayers. In India, its the state government to which all police is accountable. Even if the police force is efficient, political interference undermines their effectiveness, this complaint has been made even by Mumbai police in pursuing gangsters and smugglers.

In situation like say Ahmedabad, a politician at a safe distance would be issuing orders to `look the other way` due to looking for supposed political mileage at a macro level. But if the police had been under command of the local government, the microlevel pressures on the local government like local businessmen losing business or property to riots and violence as well as their accountability to the local public for law and order in the next local elections; these factors would influence the police to clamp down decisively on violence. Right now municipality officials representing local interests are out of the law and order loop if I am right.

There may be times and situations when centralized command of police forces makes sense. But I think in designated urban areas, we should make the police force accountable to local/city government.

THOUGHTS ON JUSTICE

luenoon26 #65:

[…I think the one of the most important lessons is NOT being learnt from the communal killings that has been happening every once in a while in India. And that lesson is - we have got to have independent and efficient law enforcement agencies at various levels of administration…]

and

tahmed321 # 69:

[…But what can one do…]

:)….you are doing fine…just keep the burner warm and keep raising the issue everywhere and everytime you get a chance and read on…

and scout 62 and sadna 71 and samina dear:

_________________________________________________


...first a quote from an earlier post…

[...the concerned citizens should see to it that, unlike the past, this time legal justice is meted out to the perpetrators of both godhra and gujrat...only when peace and sensibility prevails confidence of the constituents will return...otherwise the fabric of the state and society as we know would be further strained...]

…the modus vivendi has to undergo a drastic change…

..the modus operandi vis a vis the police chain of command does not matter…and though am not comparing the killing-fields of gujrat with the ongoing sectarian and ethnic violence in sindh and punjab…but the same holds true in ALL situations…LAW AND ORDER must prevail…justice should be seen `alive`…should be meted out to the perpetrators…

…unless that happens all of us would bleed humanity…we would continue to be a little less human…a little less insaan…

lve & rgds,

t


ps: rsridhar #67:

…well said…agree…

shammi

``Precisely how do you tell a Hindu from a Muslim in a gathering of 1500 without specifically asking them``

... to be perfectly honest, it is not a perfect science .... of course the red dot and the sideways head wag is a dead giveaway ...... the anemic look, the wicked ``makaar`` smile, the sour demeanor, and the upside down swastikas on the forehead can also identify a horible hindoo ..... the knife in the armpit remains the litmus test ......... other than that, it can be difficult to tell an indian muslim from a regular indian ..... there are other good muslims who claim that they have no trouble identifying one of them -`` un kay cheharay per noor nahin hota`` ..... i am not sure exactly what noor is - some kind of a halo, i guess ........

...... but regardless, it does seem to me that just as most white folks who claim that `` many of my best friends are niggers, oops afro-americans``, most indian hindoos have imaginary muslim ``friends`` ....... at least i have never met any hindoos at the smaller gatherings of hyderabadis and gujratis that i find myself at .....and at work they will seek out pakis to torment them with inviatations to juma prayers and tales of carnage in ahmedabad - shoo! go away, i don`t care ...... i`d rather spend time with sunil .....

Tahmed,

When I say integrating our principles into actions, I mean take your brilliance to the road and start organizing (if you don`t, already)...I understand what you are saying. But I`m also trying to work this question out for myself. If you don`t mind, I`d like to use you as a sounding board, and run some questions by you?

Kissinger? I don`t dislike him because he`s a Western politician (where on earth did you get that idea? :))...I dislike him for Vietnam, etc. I find it difficult to engage with anything that man has to say...sorry..

Oof Hamid, You`re damned lucky you are so funny-which points to your having an actual soul. (Don`t deny it, yaar, accept your little lighthouse of a heart!)

Hamid man

Au contraire - I differ with you regarding eating habits. My observation says Pakis eat beef and beef and then some lamb and chicken. We in the south have Fish of various kinds, Beef , lamb, chicken ,game and sometimes salami and ham as well.

Regarding the Imam of the Delhi mosque he needs to be kicked to Bukhara and if the Central Asians or may be Suadi Arabia .

Re: Impostor aka Rdesikan

You are not atheist as you claim because you could not bear the thought God Ram as an imperfect human being like rest of us. You just love God Krishna`s childhood adventures ..don`t you. As far as your modification to my original text is concerned, I do not agree to that. Problem is not with God or thought of it. If someone needs to strengthen his/her will by believing in God he/she can do it. They can picture it as Ram or Christ or does not picture it at all. The problem lies with billions of stupid muslim people who need to refer a 7th century text to distinguish between right and wrong. Unfortunately formal education of years cannot do it for these people. Strange it is but it it`s true. You see it everywhere. Same goes for moron Hindus who cannot free themselves from the burnt-in thoughts of their minds that all the characters in the great storybooks existed. Fools, these texts were written by some human like you and me. God does not write stories or pick one human and tell him to go and tell everyone else what he thinks. If there is God, he has lot more to think about then lives of humans.

I sincerely believe that if you take out religion from Indo-Pak politics (forget the bases of creation of Pak etc. and move on), South asia would be lot more progressive and peaceful place to live in.

Religion stalls progress. Religion is bad. Think about it.

Shammi #68 to hamidm: ``Precisely how do you tell a Hindu from a Muslim in a gathering of 1500 without specifically asking them? Curious``

Ever wonder why hamidm attacks the fridge after coming back from a party? He spends his time collecting such data from these people in parties when he should be eating and drinking.

re: hamidm

{...... have imaginary muslim ``friends`` ....... }

...if you can have imaginary friends named sunil, why can`t i have imaginary friends named kasar and nadim?...

temporal #72
``LAW AND ORDER must prevail…justice should be seen `alive`…should be meted out to the perpetrators…"

Most definitely. This is one of the things for which KPS Gill has gone to Gujarat, amazing.
This would give you a picture of how things are :( :
http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=2750
In Gujarat, keep vigil

``the modus operandi vis a vis the police chain of command does not matter``
It does matter. In addition to ensuring punitive justice is served for past acts, there are weaknesses in the law enforcement structure which need to be urgently corrected to guard against future events. Almost everyone who has reported on Gujarat is asking for implementation of the National Police Commission report recommendations for police reform.

dost-mittar #76
I agree with what you say.

``I am afraid local control of police would make matters worse. The local political thugs in affected areas (whether Gujarat `02 or Delhi `84) are usually the worst culprits and are bound to have greater influence over locally controlled police.``

The local police in Delhi and Gujarat were reporting to their seniors (in the state capital in the case of Gujarat and perhaps to the police chief reporting to the LtG in the case of Delhi), not to the citizens in the locality they were policing, nor to the local representatives in that locality. The neighbourhood thugs who influenced them could do so because they (the thugs) had protectors in the state capital as well, and hence both the police and the thugs got away with their biased criminal activities. It happens all the time in Kerala, when the CPM cadres commit many more murders when the LDF is in power. My point was merely that the linkages to bosses elsewhere might have been weaker and local compulsions might have been stronger if it was not the state government but the city government who paid their salaries through their local taxes.

But the National Police Commission reports have apparently gone the other way and recommended even more autonomy and freedom from interference for the state police.
http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF53.htm

``.. On 15 November 1977, the Government of India’s Ministry of Home Affairs appointed a National Police Commission (NPC) to examine all aspects of the Indian Police Service and to “re-define the role, duties, powers and responsibilities of the police”. From 1979 to 1981, the NPC made numerous far-reaching and promising recommendations concerning the functions, procedures and perceptions of the police force in India and the Indian system of justice in general. The NPC produced a total of eight reports; the eighth and concluding report proposed a new Police Act to replace the Police Act of 1861. Now almost 20 years after the publication of the NPC’s concluding report, the state of the Indian police remains as before. India’s state and union governments show no signs of implementing any of the recommendations.

One of the most notable efforts to promote police reform was made by former Uttar Pradesh police chief Prakash Singh. In the case of Prakash Singh vs Union of India (writ petition 310 of 1996), Singh called on the government to implement the recommendations of the NPC and the National Human Rights Commission. Four specific issues were raised in the petition: (1) creation of a State Security Commission; (2) adoption of a fixed tenure for the police chief; (3) separation of the law and order and investigative branches of the police force; and (4) introduction of a new Police Bill.

In the Prakash Singh case, the Supreme Court ordered the Government of India to establish a Sub-Committee, headed by Julio Ribeiro, to examine the main themes of NPC’s recommendations. The terms of the Sub-Committee were detailed in MHA Memo No. 11018/1/98-PMA dated 25 May 1998. Some NGOs worked with the committee to review and perfect the NPC recommendations. Four years after the formation of the Ribeiro Committee, however, no tangible results are in sight. The Supreme Court, having completed its hearings on the petition over a year-and-a-half ago, has reserved its judgement.

Hard questions need to be asked in the wake of the Gujarat tragedy: hard questions about the character – and future – of a democracy that permits the blatant and consistent disregard of the rule of law by its own law enforcement agencies. Serious consideration must be given to the NPC reports and recommendations – this is a seemingly obvious point of departure, but one that has surprisingly found no mention either in government circles or in the media. It would constitute the first step toward the reconceptualisation of the Indian police as a protective force that can be relied on and expected to provide safety to persons under threat, regardless of their religious status or political preferences. To have a citizen plead with the police to come and save his life is a disgrace to the democratic culture that Indians lay claim to...``

#: 80

shailender

Re: Impostor aka Rdesikan

You are not atheist as you claim because you could not bear the thought God Ram as an imperfect human being like rest of us. You just love God Krishna`s childhood adventures ..don`t you. As far as your modification to my original text is concerned, I do not agree to that. Problem is not with God or thought of it. If someone needs to strengthen his/her will by believing in God he/she can do it. They can picture it as Ram or Christ or does not picture it at all. The problem lies with billions of stupid muslim people who need to refer a 7th century text to distinguish between right and wrong. Unfortunately formal education of years cannot do it for these people. Strange it is but it it`s true. You see it everywhere. Same goes for moron Hindus who cannot free themselves from the burnt-in thoughts of their minds that all the characters in the great storybooks existed. Fools, these texts were written by some human like you and me. God does not write stories or pick one human and tell him to go and tell everyone else what he thinks. If there is God, he has lot more to think about then lives of humans.

I sincerely believe that if you take out religion from Indo-Pak politics (forget the bases of creation of Pak etc. and move on), South asia would be lot more progressive and peaceful place to live in.

Religion stalls progress. Religion is bad. Think about it.

..............................

Rdesikan

Shailender is not my alter Ego.

To me it quirt possiblr be YLH fertile imagination sitting dping nothing in hot humid Lahorie heat wave commonly known as `loooh`