Does a Bachelor’s degree mean education in politics

Romair,

{{I hope I haven`t shattered your confidence :-)}}

Are you kidding me?! The great, one & only Romair starts out by telling me ``my argument makes sense & I dont disagree with it!!``. My confidence is soaring to great heights! Hey, maybe I should join you in your haj trip. But watch out! by the time we reach Mecca, you might just turn into a brahmin!

Musharraf feels free to amend the Constitution to change the fundamental PM-National Assembly-President power equation.

But he didnot choose to amend a simple police station procedure for filing blasphemy cases which call for mandatory death sentences?

Did his Bachelor`s degree help him decide what to change and what not to change?

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Shankar #138: Your argument is correct and makes sense. I do not disagree with it.

It is good to question experts. In fact, they must be questioned. At the same time, one has to question them with counter-facts. I don`t think one can just question them by calling them spin doctors. That can be said about anyone.

Also, one has to keep in mind that spinning usually has some specific motivations behind it, i.e. convincing a jury etc. What if a person is just commenting, with nothing to gain? This is the primary quality I look for, when I read or quote someone.

For example, if someone asked me on my opinion on whether Indian computer scientists were better than Pakistani`s, one could make an argument that I would have an interest in spinning. However, if someone asked me whether the Indian soldiers in India`s armour brigade were better than Indian soldiers in India`s infantry brigade, my view could not be taken as spinning. It could be wrong, but not a spin. Since I have nothing personal to gain, one way or the other.

Similarly, if I quote Burki, how can he be spinning? He could be wrong, but what does he, an impartial expert observor, have to gain by spinning? If I quoted Shaukut Aziz, one could argue he is spinning, since he is the current finance minister.

The point being, that if one is going to participate in an argument, one has to present facts and counterfacts. Or at least prove what the motivations of the other person is in spinning an issue. Otherwise one has to take the argument as an honest, ``unspun`` opinion.

Also, I do believe that one has to realize one`s expertise, and its limitations. For example, I would never get in an argument with you over psychiatry. I would express an opinion, but would have to give into your expertise. Not because you are right or wrong, but because I have no way of proving you wrong (even if you are wrong). In that sense, my argument would have to be more inquisitive than authoratative. If I were to start presenting my own psychiatric theories, wouldn`t it seem a bit odd to you, specially if they contradicted long held theories of reknowned experts? Would that highlight my excess of knowledge on psychiatry, or my lack of knowledge of the subject?

In any case, in a debate or argument, one uses many techniques to disprove the other person`s thesis. One of the basic one`s is to attempt to prove the other person`s lack of knowledge/qualification of the subject. This would be the first argument used by a lawyer, if the psychiatrist testifying and claiming to be an expert, in a trial, did not have a medical degree. I think most juries and judges would accept it.

What do you think?

``I`ve havent come to Chowk pretending I`m an expert in ANYTHING..``

I am going to say five extra prayers tonight, and sacrifice a lamb. I am also thinking of going for an extra Hajj. I never thought I would hear these words :-)

I hope I haven`t shattered your confidence :-)

nasah,

Faiz wrote in his poem `kutay` (Dogs- dogs being the pakistani people and their treatment by the elite of fauji-feudals),

`jo bigrrain tho aik duusaray say larra do,

`zara aik rooti ka tukrra tho dikha do`

the BA condition is a rooti ka tukrra.

I think we can now safely assume that Musharaf is a worthless leader who will remain on the scene as long as HE TOO LICKS THE FEET OF HIS MASTERS AMERICA AND THE WEST like a faithful dog that he is.

that the faujiz will fail is beyond argument. the ONLY worthwhile fauji initiative that would have or could have had any real degree of positive effect- ie the local bodies have only created another set of corrupt leaders.

From distributing zakat funds (which the local nazims were given to distribute to the poor) amongst their own relatives and friends to `rearranging` accounting entries of those and other development funds, the local nazims (especially the chamcha nazims of the Faujiz) are set to show that this present Fauji government is more corrupt than the rest.

and President General Parvez Musharaf is the King of the Corrupt!

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tariqchoudhary,

Your logic, on the surface, sounds very good. However, ``the road to hell is always paved with good intentions``.

Heres another cliche(?sp): ``where there is a law, there is a loophole!``.

1)Eg, somebody just posted an article that the Pak election commission has recognised that some of the madrassah graduates` ``bachelor degrees`` are valid & they are qualified to run for elections.

2) Another Pakistani poster has stated that it is very easy to ``buy`` a degree in Pakistan. So a feudal`s mother, sister or wife who, in reality, may not have completed high school, could concievably ``buy`` a degree from KU & qualify as a candidate. ``Money talks...bs walks!!``. I`m in the mood for American cliches today:)

She can then be a front for the feudal, who then actually wields a lot of power from the background. BB`s husband (I may be wrong) was`nt elected to power. However, he wielded ENORMOUS influence & made millions.

3)Hitler, Stalin, Bal Thackrey & Advani had/have met the requisite educational ``qualifications``. People like them are a thousand times more dangerous to the nation than a honest, illiterate peasant or a hijra, who gets elected to office. But then, who will ``fund`` their election campaign?!

Indians & Pakistanis (this may sound prejudiced) are EXPERTS in getting around the law. I remember, many yrs ago, I went to Queens, NY to buy a video camera to send to a friend in India. The desi store owner took me aside & stated that he could give me a nice discount on the camera, provided that I paid in CASH & not ask for a receipt!

Man! the ``deal`` was too tempting to refuse. Luckily, ``paranoid me`` did`nt want to risk it. The guy looked at me like I was a dope & shrugged his shoulders & said ``well, its YOUR money! I can make it ``kosher`` & give you a receipt, so you can pay the ``suggested retail price``, pay Uncle Sam the sales tax & charge it to your credit card!``.

In India, people who have TONS of black money, live VERY modestly. Judging by their ``outward`` lifestyles, one may think they they are just scraping a living. But, in reality, they can BUY both you & me!

I`ll bet you this store owner in Queens lives like that. His store looked like a ``hole-in-the-wall!``. But he`s ``smart`` enough to pay all his ``incidental`` expenses in CASH, buy TONS of jewelry for his wife & the rest of his black money is converted into diamonds, which he buries under the rose bush in his backyard. If the IRS ever raids his house, I`ll bet you, he`ll come out smelling like that rose!

Maybe, Pakistanis strive to be different from Indians. I`ll bet you, though, no matter how hard they try, their ``mentality`` is just like the ``chip of the ol` block``..

I realise critics & cynics like me are a dime a dozen. If you ask me, ``so then, whats the solution?``, I will be the first one to say, ``Gee, I wish I knew!``...

the ONLY ``bad`` solution is that, as a people, we have to put honesty & patriotism before our personal benefit..its easier said than done... Mushy CANNOT save Pakistan unless the elite WANT the status quo to change...

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Romair,

You mentioned that, historically, the Supreme Court of Pakistan has been manipulated by the powers that be in Pakistan & some of the Supreme Court justices are corrupt & spineless as well.

That is a terrible indictment as to the state of affairs in Pakistan. The Supreme Court (in my unexpert view, ofcourse) is the most politically sacred institution of a country. A President or Prime Minister or General CANNOT & SHOULD NOT manipulate it..

It judges Constitutional disputes & it is VITAL for a nation that the Supreme Court be honest & upright, because the Constitution of a country basically DEFINES a country`s ideology. Judges on the Supreme Court SHOULD take the HIGHEST ethical road in the nation, because they ultimately decide the path the nation ought to follow.

If the Supreme Court of a nation can be so easily manipulated & corrupted....ALL BETS ARE OFF!! It means there is something SERIOUSLY wrong with the national character! If thats true, Mushy cant do much to save Pakistan. If the Supreme Court can be corrupted, who is to say that the NSC cant be similarly corrupted or manipulated?!

You can argue that Mushy is honest, incorruptible, sincere, patriotic & he wont let that happen to the NSC. Even if thats true; remember Mushy is NOT Pakistan. The way he is manipulating the Pakistani Constitution & the political structure, to suit his own agenda, he is literally making himself the FOUNDING FATHER of the ``new, improved Pakistan``!

Move over, Jinnah....the country founded by the one & only Qaid-e-Azam has a new QAID!! Mushy has given his office TREMENDOUS powers & he wants it INSTITUTIONALISED!

What if, God forbid, Mushy gets assassinated after this is institutionalised? What if the ``new Mushy`` is NOT as honest & upright as the ``old Mushy``?! He inherits tremendous power! Surely you do admit that the proud Pakistani military has scoundrels too. Judging the character of some of the Generals who ruled Pakistan throughout her short history, I WONT be surprised if some of them would manipulate & corrupt the NSC...now youre back to square one!

You said that Pakistanis have become very introspective..Great for Pakistan.!.Please introspect on this..(.ofcourse an opinion from lil ol` modest unexpert like me, is inconsequential). Nevertheless, humor me & introspect on this, for what its worth:

When Pakistan was formed, it was on the shoulders of 2 great human beings...each, in their own way, were TOWERING personalities..larger than life...:

First & foremost...the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)...it is the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan, after all..Islam plays a CENTRAL role in the ideology & character of Pakistan..

Second, perhaps not as great, but a towering personality nonetheless...Mohammed Ali Jinnah..whose dreams as aspirations was that Pakistan would be founded on laws based on the highest ethical & humanistic principles...

Hence Pakistan means ...LAND OF THE PURE..am I off the mark?

In 50+ years Pakistan, as a state, has corrupted and destroyed the greatest institution of a nation--the Supreme court. Surely, corruption & deviation from ones ethical values are an insult to Islam. If Jinnah knew what Pakistan has done to his dream, his soul will grieve..

Pakistan has failed BOTH her fathers...the Prophet & Jinnah..thus..dont you think Pakistan, so far, is a FAILED state?!

Do I make a point, or am I just a spin doctor?!:)

Romair,

I havent had time to write a long post to you until today. I dont remember if it was this thread or some other, where you were saracstically telling me that since I`m not an expert in anything, to stick to psychiatry..or some crap like that. I think you got your nose out of joint because of all the arguments you`ve lost to me:))

I`ve havent come to Chowk pretending I`m an expert in ANYTHING..least of all Pakistani politics. In fact, even my expertise in psychiatry has been referred to as ``janitorial`` by some of my admirers on Chowk. So I dont come to this forum with the attitude, ``I know best cos I`m an expert``.

When a person makes a point by highlighting & emphasising facts that support his point & demphasises facts that dont support his point; its called ``spin doctoring``. You react to my comment that you are an excellent ``spin doctor``, like it is a criticism. Its not. ``Spin doctoring`` is neither unethical or illegal. In fact, the ability to ``spin`` is an asset. The best trial lawyers, lobbyists, politicians, salesmen, stockbrokers, political & military analysts are excellent spin doctors.

When a good spin doctor makes a point, he sounds very convincing & his argument looks sounds extremely valid. Yes, we SHOULD listen to ``experts`` very intently. However, it BEHOVES us to take their ``expertise`` with a pinch of salt. Its because ``experts``, like all humans, have their own biases & vested interests. So if youre really an intelligent guy, you should listen to many ``experts`` who give opposing views of the same topic & come to an INDEPENDANT conclusion. Otherwise, you are a fool.

For eg; to a kid in a madrassah, his mullah is an EXPERT on the Koran. It gives the mullah carte blanche to instill any idea in the head of the student & he will believe it as if it were gospel truth. Thats VERY dangerous. EVERY argument has a YING & a YANG. The topics we debate on Chowk are NOT exact sciences like math or physics.

When I was doing my psych residency, we used to rotate in a sub speciality called forensic psychiatry. It requires psychiatrists to give expert testimonials in the courtroom about the ``mental state`` of a plaintiff or defendant. Now both the plaintiff & defendant`s attorneys bring in their own ``expert`` psychiatrists, who examine the identical facts of a case & give diametrically opposite conclusions!:) So who the HELL is the jury going to believe?..usually the expert who is the best ``spin doctor``! BUT a really smart juror will examine BOTH points of view, use his common sense & come to his own conclusion.

So, my friend, I`ve always looked at experts with a lot of healthy skepticism..& I hope you do too..

Cleaning the Tresurery by the so-called Clean Government.

BB-Zardari and NS total corruption according to NAB equals 4-5 billion rupees. Musharraf government, 80 billions from privaization disppeared. From The News.

Where has Rs 80bn of privatization money gone?

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: The Public Accounts Committee despite its repeated attempts and requests badly failed here on Friday in its eventful meeting to find an answer to its troubling question that where had a massive sum of Rs80 billion collected from the sale of state run institutions had gone when it was disclosed hat this money was not used for the debt retirement purpose as propagated by the military government from time to time.

In addition to it, indiscriminate use of billions of rupees collected from the privatization money on consultant salaries and legal experts also raised many troubling questions that who was actually benefiting from the whole privatization process after laying off thousands of people as this heavy amount was not being used for the purpose of debt retirement. The Rs5billion have been spent on these consultants, advisors etc.

The mysterious and confusing replies aimed at hiding the actual ``use`` of this money both from the Privatization Commission and Finance Ministry officials made the things cast serious doubts on the actual use of such a big money that was collected after rendering thousands of people jobless on the excuse that that money would be used for debt retirement.

But, now all of sudden, no body is telling the helpless and bewildered members of the PAC that where have this money has gone if not spent on the debt retirement. No government official is ready to disclose the unknown areas where this money has been spent by the finance ministry wizards.``

Earlier, the PAC took the audit reports pertaining to PC where irregularities to the tune of Rs4 billion were detected. The meeting was presided over by the HU Beg, and attended by its members Shaukat Kazmi, Lieut Gen (retd) Talat Masoud, Ahdul Akmal, Hassan Bhutto, Mujahid Shahi. The Auditor General of Pakistan† Yunis Khan participated for the first time after taking the oath of new AGP on July 20. Deputy Auditor General (Senior) Ch. Mohammad Ilyas was also there to grill the PC.

The whole trouble with regard to sorry state of affairs in the governance of the present government started when some of the PAC members wanted to know from the secretary Privatization Commission Waqar Ahmad that where had the entire amount collected form the state run institutions gone.

The charged and aggressive Secretary PC Waqar Ahmad clearly refused to divulge the information about the use of this money saying the Privatization Commission had nothing to do with the use of this money as they had transferred that money to the Finance Ministry after keeping Rs10 billion for their own expenditures.

An arrogant Waqar Ahmad frankly asked the PAC to put that very question to the finance ministry as his job was to transfer that fund to the Finance and they might know its use. But, a day earlier, the finance secretary Nawaid Ahsan had also refused to disclose that where had the full money of privatization gone.

The PAC members were really at a loss to understand that why the government official were not ready to give reply to a simple question that where the government had spent the Rs80 bilion if not on the debt retirement. But, it was clear that the government officials had vowed not to disclose that million-dollar question as to whom and where had the funds gone.

Earlier, the Secretary Waqar Ahmad told the house that a total of Rs79.858 billion were collected from the sale proceeds of privatization of state run institutions. Only Rs3 billion were pending against different parties on accounts of commitments, otherwise, the government had received the entire amount. According to Waqar, a total of Rs 56.99billion was transferred to the finance ministry from this total of collection of Rs79.8billion. Rs5.5bilion were spent on the golden handshake schemes, due of lawyers and voluntary retirement schemes. While Rs4.8 billion were spent on the salaries, and cost of the financial advisors, legal expenditures and advertisements. Thus, a total of Rs69.988 billion were spent on all these activities.

While, Dr Waqar still had some bomb shell to drop in the PAC meeting when he pointed out that Rs9.87 billion were still lying with the privatization commission from the total collection. And Rs7.62bilion are in addition to it were also lying with the commission in the form of foreign exchange reserves received on account of oil well proceeds. And, he said that the PC had already asked the ministry of finance to tell it what to do with that very amount.

A very unpleasant situation developed in the PAC proceedings when the Secretary PC Waqar Ahmad started to give very sarcastic remarks against the auditors and other officials who `` unlike PAC traditions and decorum used very authoritarian language with both the PAC members and Auditor officials.``

The deputy auditor general (senior) Ch. Mohammad Ilyas however, took Waqar Ahmad to the task saying it was unfair to use such language in the PAC as nothing was personal in such meetings and only officials matters were discussed in the meeting for the best national interests and that very spirit must be maintained.

But, Waqar Ahmad did not give any heed and continued to attack the auditors The PAC also note that sarcastic and arrogant style of Waqar Ahmad and on certain occasions, asked him to lower his voice. But a charged and over confident Waqar Ahmad did not listen and had another direct clash with the PAC and auditor general when it was pointed out that why the PC was utilising the huge money collected from the sale of state run institutions. He was immediately challenged by Finance Ministry representative Muhammad Nasrul Aziz who said under the law the PC is provided funds from the secretariat budget, in addition to commission grants.

But, Mr Warqar who was not ready to listen to anyone in the PAC, said he was authorised to use funds from the money collected from the sale of state owned institutions mostly sold at the throw away prices to the buyers.

what is this I am hearing?

According to Dawn, July 26th edition, the Pakistan election commission is going to recognize diplomas from ``madaris`` as valid graduate completion requirement.

So, what you would have in the not so near future, would be a lot of hard-nosed maulanas/maulvis or taliban type graduates dictating public policy in Pakitani parliament.

At the expense of PML, PPP and so forth.

This is going to cost Pakistan big time, in the long run. I hope Mush understands what he is doing to Pakistan? He might end up like ex-shah of iran or something and you would have an equivalent of ``ayotollah`` ruling your country.

Here is the link:

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/26/top3.htm

Thanks

what is this I am hearing?

According to Dawn, July 26th edition, the Pakistan election commission is going to recognize diplomas from ``madaris`` as valid graduate completion requirement.

So, what you would have in the not so near future, would be a lot of hard-nosed maulanas/maulvis or taliban type graduates dictating public policy in Pakitani parliament.

At the expense of PML, PPP and so forth.

This is going to cost Pakistan big time, in the long run. I hope Mush understands what he is doing to Pakistan? He might end up like ex-shah of iran or something and you would have an equivalent of ``ayotollah`` ruling your country.

The political system in this country has to CHANGE. Musharaf has set the ball rolling: ``If u ain`t a minimum BA, you are out``. Its plain and simple, we need educated people in, who can run the affairs of this country and take this country forward to a more progressive, modern and educated society. An edicated society with tolerance to others, regardless of colour, creed, religion.

Attached article on gang-rape. It also mentions towards the end of the fate of the four who were going to be saved from the gallows by marrying off girls and paying money. Doesn`t seem the court allowed it.

Gang - Rape Case That Stunned Pakistan Due in Court

By REUTERS

Filed at 3:52 a.m. ET

MULTAN, Pakistan (Reuters) - In a case of shocking brutality that sparked outrage in Pakistan, four men go on trial on Friday charged with a gang rape authorized as punishment by a traditional village jury.

The defendants could face the death penalty if convicted of a crime similar to frequent abuses in southern Punjab, a region little touched by central authority and where centuries-old concepts of honor and revenge are paramount.

Mukhtaran Mai, a 30-year-old divorcee, says she was repeatedly raped last month after approaching the tribal council in Meerwala to settle a dispute between two families at the opposite ends of the village`s social scale.

The juries, called panchayats, are often convened in rural areas to settle local disputes.

Mai, from the poorer Gujar family, pleaded with the men of the more powerful Mastoi clan to free her brother, kidnapped after allegedly having an illicit affair with a Mastoi woman. Abdul Shakur, said to be in his early teens, denied the charge, but that did not prevent three Mastoi men, none of them involved in the current trial, allegedly sodomizing him.

To save the honor of the Mastoi clan, Shakur was expected to wed the Mastoi woman with whom he was linked while Mai was to be given away in marriage to a Mastoi man.

Mai begged the council for mercy, but instead ended up meeting the full force of Mastoi revenge -- four men raped her and made her walk home semi-naked in front of hundreds of people, according to the prosecution.

``This incident was shocking for people in general,`` said the government`s prosecutor in the case, Ramzan Khalid Joiya, in his offices in the Punjab town of Multan. The trial is being held in Dera Ghazi Khan two hours` drive to the west.

``This kind of violation of women is very common, but every time it is highlighted, the practice stops at least for a while, which is better than nothing,`` he told Reuters.

CASE PARTICULARLY SHOCKING

Dozens of rapes and ``honor`` killings of women have been registered in Punjab this year, with women slain by fathers, brothers and husbands for ``crimes`` including failing to conceive a child and refusing to become a prostitute.

But Naeem Mirza of the Aurat Foundation, a women`s rights group, said the Meerwala case was particularly shocking.

``The most distinctive feature of this case is that this was sanctioned by the panchayat, and the public outrage also makes it different.``

One surprising aspect of the case is that it came to light at all. People in the region are often afraid to reveal such abuses, because perpetrators wield influence or because of the social stigma attached to victims.

In Mai`s case the local imam, Abdul Razzaq, spoke about the alleged crime in a mosque during Friday prayers.

Police were accused of dragging their feet in the investigation until the case attracted international media attention. Once that happened, work accelerated, said Joiya.

The trial will be held in an anti-terrorism court behind closed doors and could take as little as four days.

International human rights groups have criticized the special courts for rushing trials and being vulnerable to political pressure from local and central government.

In a separate case in Punjab this week, Pakistan`s Supreme Court ordered a probe into a panchayat-sanctioned deal under which four murderers sought to escape hanging by selling young daughters into marriage to elderly relatives of their victims.

A district mayor in the city of Mianwali said the bridegrooms -- one 77 and the other 55 -- married the 15 and 14-year-old daughters of two of the murderers on Wednesday morning, but divorced them later the same day on the advice of local elders.

The Supreme Court said the marriage deal violated the law and the norms of a civilized society. The men are due to hang on Saturday.

Re: Shankar

Yes, I am harsh on the situation in Pakistan. I am not willing to tolerate any more Bravo Sierra in Pakistan.

My harshness, or what ever you may opt to define it as, is grounded in the past 55 years of Pakistani history. The empirical evidence of those years is what I use as a guiding post for my observations and it is those years` collective experience, which I use as means of judging the future.

Let me give you a very minor example. For the last three years, since the Musharraf government came to power, the nation as has been hearing that new police reforms would be implemented soon. Periodically, the newspapers carry the news that the Interior Minister or the Governor or the Law Minister that the reforms would soon be implemented. Where are the police reforms? The nation is still waiting for it! The answer is that it will in two weeks or four weeks or a month or soon, the all time favorite lie of the Pakistani establishment. Where are the reforms?

The curse of Pakistan, in the last 55 years, has been that everything is discussed, plans are made, discussions are held and all schemes are approved, but nothing gets implemented, because of corruption, disorganization and inefficiency on the part of the bureaucrats and those who are supposed to put the theoretical development of Pakistan into reality.

What happened to all those plans approved in the last 55 years? Why is there nothing to show, on the ground, for those plans?

No!

I will judge progess in Pakistan by verifiable deeds and not promises made! I will not believe a word the government says, because my past experince teaches me that it will be a lie. I will base my judgement on the reality of the past and not on the tailored lies of a bright future. If the future of Pakistan is bright, only when it happens will I believe it!

No! No, more free lunches and benefits of doubts, because enough time has been wasted and no more time can be wasted.

As to your asseration of what I said a year ago, remember a retreat does not make a rout. A battle does not win a war.

Ciao