What it means to be me in Corporate America?

Dear Humsab,

If indeed that is your view of Sadna, I most regretfully inform you that not only are you blindfolded, but I think you haven`t seen what she has written in the past...

Sadna`s `not-so-strong` words contain a vitriolic diatribe against Pakistan full of lies and abuse. Even on this board she is the one who started the barrage of abuse by calling Pakistan a `sick country`. When I responded by reminding her that by the standards she is applying, her country ie India is even sicker since it puts on a hypocritical facade, she claimed that I am `compulsively abusive` and unable to handle disagreement. She is neither very intelligent nor very well read... all she is well versed in is the Indian Government propaganda unleashed against Pakistan.. And please Rsaxena can hardly be an example for anyone. He is a typical obstructionist.

-YLH

Ylh # 254

Dear Yasser

I don`t have any option except to disagree with you in general. Sadna is not the kind of person who uses abusive language or even very strong words. You must also appreciate that if you want to put forward your point passionately without giving an inch to the rival then other interactors also have the same right. Sadna is an intelligent, well read person who GENERALLY interacts in a controlled manner but NEVER GIVE UP. Since, I am your opponents compatriot, so my view can be biased:) but on the whole, I don`t think Indians are particularly prone to throw themselves in any soup.

As for you, not only you but everybody around here on Chowk knows that you are an intelligent well read person but problem is correctly diagonised by another person of Indian origin that you tend to become a WILLING BAKRA. My sincere advice to you is,` learn to control your reactions as this will result in better articulation on your part.` But I know it is easier said then done because at your age, most of us will be reacting in a manner that you do. So, learn from another Indian RSaxena and enjoy this site because Saxena is very clear about Chowk and its impact on people`s life.

You don`t have to take each and every word to heart.

Have a good day!

Not only has Sadna failed to answer very specific and pertinent questions I raised to which she responded in her typical `i will not play because you are unfair` whining... but she has also failed to show me how I am `compulsively abusive` when she is the one who started with the `sick country` business, and how am I intolerant of disagreement, when I am having a perfectly fine and civilized disagreement with three other Indians ie Dost Mittar, Layman and Hum Sab....

Is this all she has to show? Other than accusations, strawman fallacies and lies coupled with perverse logic (like my support of the right of self determination according to the UN resolutions is some how analogous to Imran Khan`s alleged support for the Taliban or that I somehow support militancy in Kashmir) On the other hand we have people like Roohi who keep saying that Aisha has an imbalanced view and that Aisha propagates hate when Aisha speaks of being `tolerant of other peoples` beliefs` while people like Sadna who are utterly intolerant and bigoted in their approach to Pakistan and India matters are left alone to do as they please.

-YLH

dost mittar #251:

``As for Pakistan`s national language, I think Panjabis made an implicit pact with the Mohajirs to forego their language (just like the Hindu Panjabis in India) in lieu of political dominance in the new country.``

I too have heard that Hindu Punjabis used to mention Hindi as their language during census. But I dont understand what benefits it would give them - I am not sure it would have helped them win elections, as politics is a numbers game - if they had the numbers, they would win anyway. Regarding the Punjab-Haryana partition, would Hindu Punjabis have preferred to live in Haryana over Punjab?

ylh #

Just as a reminder.

Apart from illegal immigrants.

There is a bustling trade of Rajhastani women to Bahawalpur.

But that is a black spot on our face.

(Faces of people like Sadhna cannot be blackened further, for it a new idiom needs to be invented)

Dear Dost Mittar,

Just on that last post... you certainly have the right to view history your own way, but simply saying that the Jallianwallah massacre happened will not prove that the Congress made head way in Punjab...

Both League and the Congress could pull sizeable crowds even in the 1930s (and remember jallianwallah crowd was only a 1000 or so people who butchered by that remorseless man)... but Congress didn`t win any major victories in Punjab... nor did the League... Both of them were all India parties with an Independence agenda on their manifestoes ... so they were inimical to the interests of Unionists... the Cry of socialism nor that of Indo-Muslim Nationalism didn`t go down well with the Punjabi Landlord who was a loyalist through and through and was opposed to any mass movement... but it was the cry of Pakistan which permanently disrupted their constituency...

You speak of Jinnah making the pact with the feudal... I don`t think that is true... when Sikandar Hayat refused to take the party line, he was thrown out of the League... even Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz was made an example of... it might be true that Muslims, especially the Punjabis, till then and even now are essentially a feudal society... but like I said before Jinnah informed very well the all the Maulanas, Sirdars, and the Feudals who the daddy was... it was his death which brought about the feudals back where they didn`t belong ....

-YLH

Hum Sab,

``Good post. Now, give yourself a pat on your back from my side. Are you preparing to fight election this time or next time?Best of luck. Do well in life and make your parents and your country proud of you.``

I thankyou for your wishes and compliments... I am only 22 so i don`t know about contesting elections right now though... but I do plan to one day.

Perhaps you can also explain the first part to Ms Sadna as well, who loves calling other countries `sick` but when some responds she claims that I am `compulsively abusive` and `can`t handle disagreement`... Ladies and gentlemen is there no sense of fairness left? If Sadna or anyone will curse at Pakistan I will respond in full force... then don`t scream `compulsive abusive` nonsense. Really this is what you get for being civilized with scum like Sadna. Don`t I have the right to respond in kind when some pathetic Pakistan-obsessed loser like Sadna calls Pakistan a `Sick country` ??? Simply because she can`t argue on logic??

Dost Mittar,

That also a point of view and there are many things you hold are true... however history has a rich blend... and it gets richer with diverse points of view...

Thanks for that excellent post.

-YLH

INDIAN IRONY...

Isay Kehtay hain, chori aur phir seena Zori... I was having a civilized discussion when Ms.Sadna started with her garbage about `Sick` country.. and now she is accusing me of being `Compulsively Abusive`. If you can`t handle being called a `Pakistan-Obsessed loser` than cease and desist with derogatory comments like `Sick` country or else don`t whine about Compulsive abuse...

Indian Theory: When you can`t talk logically, start lying. Well done Sadna.

ylh #248
You are compulsively abusive and cannot handle disagreement. You have the freedom of the thread.

YLH 243 and Sadna 245

Mr YLH if you read your history well , you will realise areas such as Tharparkar in Sind were Hindu majority areas before partition and just after. What happened in the aftermath was that the Sodha Rajputs as well as the Menghwars were increasingly discriminated and many have migrated to Rajasthan, Haryana and Delhi.

Anyways that part as much any other border area has people who speak the same language across the border.People tend to live where their forefathers have lived unless they are forced out via economic, social methods.

There were reports in Indian mags about Sodhas being forced into Islam and hence choosing their way to India , where by the way they are not yet Indian citizens .

It will indeed be difficult for an average person to suffer the pomposity of the Mastoi or Marwat or any other feudal buffoon in the ``local America``.

YLH # 231

Good post. Now, give yourself a pat on your back from my side. Are you preparing to fight election this time or next time?

Best of luck. Do well in life and make your parents and your country proud of you.

(I am not sure if this went through last time, please post it up thankyou)

Sadna and her aliases,

¡§Who is Emma Duncan? Another Joe Smush South Asia expert I guess.¡¨

Yes ¡K anyone who says anything remotely nice about Pakistan is a Joe Smush¡K while anyone who recognizes Pakistan for the evil it is, is a Gospel of truth¡K that¡¦s Indian objectivity for you!

¡§I am not an illegal immigrant in your sick country¡¨

Ah back to name calling are we now? And I am glad¡K we don¡¦t want hate mongers like you anyway.. ƒº ¡K by the way have you considered what is a really and truly sick country? A country in which thousands of innocents are burnt alive for their faith¡K a country which elects a Hindu fundamentalist party to government, a country which makes nuclear weapons and ICBMs while hundreds of millions of its citizens live in deplorable conditions, a country which starts a nuclear arms race to the detriment of 1.5 billion people of South Asia¡K ? Which occupies a foreign land and denies the people their basic human right .. the right to determine their own collective destiny¡K that my dear is the truly sick country. So lets not go into the question of sickness¡K ok?

And all those Indians who will now emerge to condemn me¡K Please recognize that I am not the one who used the word ¡¥sick¡¦ first. Obviously I don¡¦t expect any sense of objectivity from any of you.

¡§Get your friends to publish one authoritative report on Indian immigrants in Pakistan, because all this crapping on your part is totally unconvincing.¡¨

Dear Sadna ¡K It is a fact¡K and your accepting not accepting won¡¦t change it. Please take it out of your head that we need to convince some life-less Pakistan-obsessed loser sitting in Southern New Jersey on her computer 24/7 dishing out BJP garbage. We just don¡¦t have time to waste on you.

¡§why they were so stupid as to leave the `local America`.¡¨

Again: I didn¡¦t call Pakistan the Local America nor do I consider it one¡K Emma Duncan did. Take this issue up with her and not me. However what might be local America for the poor and destitute people of India might not be so for the people of Pakistan ¡K have you considered that everyone seeks a better lifestyle than he/she has? Why did you leave that heaven on earth for America¡¦s armpit New Jersey?

¡§And if Pakistan continues to foment violence in Kashmir or elsewhere in India, India is sure to retaliate with RAW-inspired violence in Pakistan to show Pakistani leaders that the same sponsored-violence card can be played the other way too.¡¨

That is a matter of opinion isn¡¦t it¡K Historically speaking India set out as early as 1947 to destabilize Pakistan ¡K by all means financially, morally, socially and through violent means¡K your deputy Prime Minister was one of the plotters in the attempted Murder of the first Governor General of Pakistan¡K India actively supplied dissidents in Bengal, and then in Baluchistan with weapons when both of these places weren¡¦t even disputed.. and India was behind ethnic and sectarian violence all over Pakistan even before it started pointing fingers at Pakistan for Kashmir.. Secondly Kashmir is disputed by all parties and there are UN resolutions on it. Are there any UN resolutions on Say Karachi? Besides only a fool motivated by ultra-nationalistic BS put out by the Indian media would suggest that all violence in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored and none of it is indigenous¡K even though none of the Kashmiris want anything to do with you?

Its amazing how the Pakistani leadership speaking of peace and dialogue is ¡¥Sir Phira¡¦ while the war mongering Indian leadership is giving ¡¥peace a chance¡¦. How delusional can one be? Reminds me of that fascinatingly true article by Farzana Versey¡K ¡¥Gandhi¡¦s Progeny¡¦. It is amazing that now the will of the Kashmiri people is to be ascertained through ¡¥Mori.com¡¦ wonderful¡K Your logic never ceases to amaze me. Also it is amazing that the ¡¥Indian Embassy¡¦ website is being quoted as the objective source on the Azad Kashmir Government ¡K which is an elected government of the people, no matter how you would like to twist the facts¡K

As for your own selective interpretation of the UN Security council resolutions¡K allow me to inform you that your argument is childish to say the least. The Resolutions have a few fundamental premises: 1) Kashmir is a disputed territory 2) Plebiscite to ascertain whether the Kashmiris will go to Pakistan or India will happen. India doesn¡¦t accept Premise 1¡K hence there is no point of Pakistan allowing AJK to be brought under Indian occupation.

¡§You seem blissfully unaware that the present head of government in PoK is a Musharraf appointee from the Army (according to Pakistani newspapers) and the powers of govt in any case are held by a bureacrat in Islamabad.¡¨

You have a very fertile imagination. I know of Bangladeshi newspapers who say Sheikh Hasina Wajid was a stooge of Indian government¡K does that make it true?

This following statement made my day¡K it shows me that you are mentally unbalanced and completely incapable of making a worthwhile argument¡K

¡§Your statements also remind me of Pakistanis who kept saying pre Sept 11 that Afghans `deserve` a government like the Taliban, in order to justify Pakistan sending jihadis and helping Taliban militarily until US forced Pakistan to pull out in Oct 2001. Afghans have died through Pakistani hands due to these `insights`. Doesn`t Imran Khan still say that Afghans will yet welcome the Taliban back? Kashmiris are similarly dying through Pakistani jihadi hands.¡¨

1)How is my asking for the right of self determination for the kashmiri people in anyway similar to the statement that afghans deserve a government like taliban? This shows how far Indian bigots are willing to go to misuse and abuse the legitimate war on terrorism for their own petty and stupid little ends¡K have you no shame at all?

2) Are you assuming that I am pro-Militancy in Kashmir? Then you are wrong¡K I believe in a constitutional struggle for independence personally where the Hurriyet Conference should contest the elections, win them, and then not take oath on the Indian constitution and declare their independence as the elected representatives of Kashmir. Ofcourse to do this, the elections will have to be monitored by International observers which India is opposed to precisely because it plans to rig those elections¡K since the Kashmiri people have decided to boycott the elections I respect their decision.

3) How is Imran Khan related to all of this?

4) Are you assuming that a) all militants in Kashmir are Pakistanis? b) No Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood by the great and humanistic army of India?

If the answer to 4(a) and 4(b) is yes¡K then one can safely assume that you are no impartial and objective observer¡K but rather someone who is taking a blatantly ultra-nationalistic BJP/Advani line¡K hence you are an in the closet BJP supporter. Furthermore you don¡¦t even have a kernel of objectivity ¡K ofcourse (and this one is for Roohi) I have been more than critical of the Jehadi tanzeems who have hijacked the legitimate struggle of the Kashmir people for independence¡K which proves that atleast I, an evil Pakistani, am ready to talk peace on realistic terms admitting the horrible mistakes made by my own side, while not surrendering the legitimate issue of Kashmir¡K People like you Sadna are the curse that has come to haunt Pakistan and India¡K I hate Sallahuddin the Kashmiri leader as much as I hate people like you¡K because you are the exact Indian equivalent of Sallahudin in my opinion¡K and debating with you is as fruitless as debating with the local mullah¡K

-YLH

PS: You still haven¡¦t shown me where Emma Duncan says that she has a soft corner for Pakistan as you alleged?

And on the issue of the ¡¥White skin¡¦¡K none of it was an insult¡K but the way you sanctimoniously try to change the topic is amazing¡K the fact my dear is that you can¡¦t answer logically¡K

Sadna and her aliases,

¡§Who is Emma Duncan? Another Joe Smush South Asia expert I guess.¡¨

Yes ¡K anyone who says anything remotely nice about Pakistan is a Joe Smush¡K while anyone who recognizes Pakistan for the evil it is, is a Gospel of truth¡K that¡¦s Indian objectivity for you!

¡§I am not an illegal immigrant in your sick country¡¨

Ah back to name calling are we now? And I am glad¡K we don¡¦t want hate mongers like you anyway.. ƒº ¡K by the way have you considered what is a really and truly sick country? A country in which thousands of innocents are burnt alive for their faith¡K a country which elects a Hindu fundamentalist party to government, a country which makes nuclear weapons and ICBMs while hundreds of millions of its citizens live in deplorable conditions, a country which starts a nuclear arms race to the detriment of 1.5 billion people of South Asia¡K ? Which occupies a foreign land and denies the people their basic human right .. the right to determine their own collective destiny¡K that my dear is the truly sick country. So lets not go into the question of sickness¡K ok?

And all those Indians who will now emerge to condemn me¡K Please recognize that I am not the one who used the word ¡¥sick¡¦ first. Obviously I don¡¦t expect any sense of objectivity from any of you.

¡§Get your friends to publish one authoritative report on Indian immigrants in Pakistan, because all this crapping on your part is totally unconvincing.¡¨

Dear Sadna ¡K It is a fact¡K and your accepting not accepting won¡¦t change it. Please take it out of your head that we need to convince some life-less Pakistan-obsessed loser sitting in Southern New Jersey on her computer 24/7 dishing out BJP garbage. We just don¡¦t have time to waste on you.

¡§why they were so stupid as to leave the `local America`.¡¨

Again: I didn¡¦t call Pakistan the Local America nor do I consider it one¡K Emma Duncan did. Take this issue up with her and not me. However what might be local America for the poor and destitute people of India might not be so for the people of Pakistan ¡K have you considered that everyone seeks a better lifestyle than he/she has? Why did you leave that heaven on earth for America¡¦s armpit New Jersey?

¡§And if Pakistan continues to foment violence in Kashmir or elsewhere in India, India is sure to retaliate with RAW-inspired violence in Pakistan to show Pakistani leaders that the same sponsored-violence card can be played the other way too.¡¨

That is a matter of opinion isn¡¦t it¡K Historically speaking India set out as early as 1947 to destabilize Pakistan ¡K by all means financially, morally, socially and through violent means¡K your deputy Prime Minister was one of the plotters in the attempted Murder of the first Governor General of Pakistan¡K India actively supplied dissidents in Bengal, and then in Baluchistan with weapons when both of these places weren¡¦t even disputed.. and India was behind ethnic and sectarian violence all over Pakistan even before it started pointing fingers at Pakistan for Kashmir.. Secondly Kashmir is disputed by all parties and there are UN resolutions on it. Are there any UN resolutions on Say Karachi? Besides only a fool motivated by ultra-nationalistic BS put out by the Indian media would suggest that all violence in Kashmir is Pakistan sponsored and none of it is indigenous¡K even though none of the Kashmiris want anything to do with you?

Its amazing how the Pakistani leadership speaking of peace and dialogue is ¡¥Sir Phira¡¦ while the war mongering Indian leadership is giving ¡¥peace a chance¡¦. How delusional can one be? Reminds me of that fascinatingly true article by Farzana Versey¡K ¡¥Gandhi¡¦s Progeny¡¦. It is amazing that now the will of the Kashmiri people is to be ascertained through ¡¥Mori.com¡¦ wonderful¡K Your logic never ceases to amaze me. Also it is amazing that the ¡¥Indian Embassy¡¦ website is being quoted as the objective source on the Azad Kashmir Government ¡K which is an elected government of the people, no matter how you would like to twist the facts¡K

As for your own selective interpretation of the UN Security council resolutions¡K allow me to inform you that your argument is childish to say the least. The Resolutions have a few fundamental premises: 1) Kashmir is a disputed territory 2) Plebiscite to ascertain whether the Kashmiris will go to Pakistan or India will happen. India doesn¡¦t accept Premise 1¡K hence there is no point of Pakistan allowing AJK to be brought under Indian occupation.

¡§You seem blissfully unaware that the present head of government in PoK is a Musharraf appointee from the Army (according to Pakistani newspapers) and the powers of govt in any case are held by a bureacrat in Islamabad.¡¨

You have a very fertile imagination. I know of Bangladeshi newspapers who say Sheikh Hasina Wajid was a stooge of Indian government¡K does that make it true?

This following statement made my day¡K it shows me that you are mentally unbalanced and completely incapable of making a worthwhile argument¡K

¡§Your statements also remind me of Pakistanis who kept saying pre Sept 11 that Afghans `deserve` a government like the Taliban, in order to justify Pakistan sending jihadis and helping Taliban militarily until US forced Pakistan to pull out in Oct 2001. Afghans have died through Pakistani hands due to these `insights`. Doesn`t Imran Khan still say that Afghans will yet welcome the Taliban back? Kashmiris are similarly dying through Pakistani jihadi hands.¡¨

1)How is my asking for the right of self determination for the kashmiri people in anyway similar to the statement that afghans deserve a government like taliban? This shows how far Indian bigots are willing to go to misuse and abuse the legitimate war on terrorism for their own petty and stupid little ends¡K have you no shame at all?

2) Are you assuming that I am pro-Militancy in Kashmir? Then you are wrong¡K I believe in a constitutional struggle for independence personally where the Hurriyet Conference should contest the elections, win them, and then not take oath on the Indian constitution and declare their independence as the elected representatives of Kashmir. Ofcourse to do this, the elections will have to be monitored by International observers which India is opposed to precisely because it plans to rig those elections¡K since the Kashmiri people have decided to boycott the elections I respect their decision.

3) How is Imran Khan related to all of this?

4) Are you assuming that a) all militants in Kashmir are Pakistanis? b) No Kashmiris have been murdered in cold blood by the great and humanistic army of India?

If the answer to 4(a) and 4(b) is yes¡K then one can safely assume that you are no impartial and objective observer¡K but rather someone who is taking a blatantly ultra-nationalistic BJP/Advani line¡K hence you are an in the closet BJP supporter. Furthermore you don¡¦t even have a kernel of objectivity ¡K ofcourse (and this one is for Roohi) I have been more than critical of the Jehadi tanzeems who have hijacked the legitimate struggle of the Kashmir people for independence¡K which proves that atleast I, an evil Pakistani, am ready to talk peace on realistic terms admitting the horrible mistakes made by my own side, while not surrendering the legitimate issue of Kashmir¡K People like you Sadna are the curse that has come to haunt Pakistan and India¡K I hate Sallahuddin the Kashmiri leader as much as I hate people like you¡K because you are the exact Indian equivalent of Sallahudin in my opinion¡K and debating with you is as fruitless as debating with the local mullah¡K

-YLH

PS: You still haven¡¦t shown me where Emma Duncan says that she has a soft corner for Pakistan as you alleged?And on the issue of the ¡¥White skin¡¦¡K none of it was an insult¡K but the way you sanctimoniously try to change the topic (and attribute utter nonsense to me) is amazing¡K the fact my dear is that you can¡¦t answer logically¡K so you decide to make up lies about me.

ylh #243

Nation and religion are two different things.

As a nation state of Pakistan, constitution should not differentiate between on the basis of race, religion, color or creed.

In current history, there are two sects who have been rejected as Muslims, by the unanimous consensus of Muslims.

Bahai in Iran and Qadianis in Pakistan.

The reason is not why they believe in God and prophet.

The reason is they believe in new prophets after Mohammed PBUH.

As I said accepting this notion that there is a prophet. Simply means, you have to accept each and every word of Mirza as true. Because if he is a prophet, you cannot argue that his words are divine or not. They are divine.

So if you accept Qadiani as Muslims, tou have to believe that Mirza`s words were the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

So basically what we are denying is that Mirza Ahmed was a prophet of God.

So problem is this. Whatever good teachings he has preached, or otherwise. It is useless. Because the basic teaching on which Qadiani religion revolves is the Prophethood of Mirza.

Otherwise which sane person will believe that jesus migrated to Kashmir or Adam was created by God 6000 years back.

I try to take stand on the matter of principle.

As a citizen of Pakistan, they needs to enjoy every right which other citizens have.

As far as the core beliefs are concerned, they are not Muslims. Whatever they call themselves.

ylh #243
``but then don’t spit on our face. Jis thali mein khaten hain us mein ched nahin karte.``

I am not an illegal immigrant in your sick country and you will get as much spit in your face as you ask for. Get your friends to publish one authoritative report on Indian immigrants in Pakistan, because all this crapping on your part is totally unconvincing.

And ask the Pakistani immigrants who are periodically arrested of the shores of Europe or who suffocate to death in holds of ships(along with Indians) why they were so stupid as to leave the `local America`.

Re BJP, I am not a closet BJP supporter. Advani`s attitude may be suitable to deal with the sir-phira establishment of Pakistan, but to me its unacceptable for him to base domestic politics too on a similar attitude toward his fellow Indians.

Re RAW, I didnot `deny` anything. I asked which recent events are you ascribing to RAW ? Musharraf blamed even the Daniel Pearl murder on India.

And if Pakistan continues to foment violence in Kashmir or elsewhere in India, India is sure to retaliate with RAW-inspired violence in Pakistan to show Pakistani leaders that the same sponsored-violence card can be played the other way too. I am sure they are holding off only because they think its better to give peace a chance at this time.

Regarding the `independent autonomous government` in PoK, those standing for election had to sign an undertaking that they agree to Kashmir`s accession to Pakistan.
Also:
``in the clause 4 of their Constitution`` there is this stipulation:
``No person or political party shall be permitted to propagate against or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to the ideology of the State`s accession to Pakistan``. Freedom of speech may be restricted in the interest of ``friendly relations with Pakistan``.``

Also check out:
http://www.indianembassy.org/policy/Kashmir/Kashmir_MEA/POK.html

``..Power however still rested with the officials of Pakistan, and the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs in Islamabad with regard to all legislation and appointments, questions of general policy, budget, internal security, matters involving heavy financial commitment, public debts and loans, taxes and important matters relating to civil supplies..``

You seem blissfully unaware that the present head of government in PoK is a Musharraf appointee from the Army (according to Pakistani newspapers) and the powers of govt in any case are held by a bureacrat in Islamabad.

Re your statements on Kashmiris sentiments and `situation on the ground`, here are some alternate views for whatever they are worth:

http://www.mori.com/polls/2002/kashmir.shtml

One Kashmiri leader sitting in Islamabad called Salaahuddin says Kashmir is the first goal of jihad for Islamic rule and the conquest of India will follow. Pakistanis exercise great selection of which `will of Kashmiris` they will support for example, Pakistanis donot want Kashmiris to vote for their state government.

Your statements also remind me of Pakistanis who kept saying pre Sept 11 that Afghans `deserve` a government like the Taliban, in order to justify Pakistan sending jihadis and helping Taliban militarily until US forced Pakistan to pull out in Oct 2001. Afghans have died through Pakistani hands due to these `insights`. Doesn`t Imran Khan still say that Afghans will yet welcome the Taliban back? Kashmiris are similarly dying through Pakistani jihadi hands.

Regarding the ISI role in Kashmir, you need to understand denials no longer work. Post Sept 11 the ISI role in Kashmir is all over the world`s newspapers with foreign peacemaking emissaries debating even the finer points like whether Musharraf undertook to close the training camps or not. And since deniability is gone, as long as Pakistan continues to remain involved in violence in Kashmir, it is going to be blamed for the situation there. Not very clever, IMO.

Re plebiscite
You keep saying `will of the people` but don`t speak of changed demographics and Akshai Chin? Selective purism is no purism.

Which troops? Pakistani troops, even the UN reported Pakistani troops.
Secondly the UN resolutions called for Pakistani troop pullout UNCONDITIONALLY ie regardless of Pakistani apprehensions about India`s intentions. If Pakistan was asking for any `guarantees` as additional conditionalities for it to uphold the UN resolutions, that was a matter to be taken up between Pakistan and the UN.

Moreover if Pakistan itself chose not to uphold the UN resolutions because its own conditionalities were not met, on what basis does Pakistan complain about India doing the same? Look into your own gireban first.

``are not ready to grant Kashmiris their democratic right of self determination of their destiny and future, the right that the British granted our own founding fathers, the right to liberty and freedom``

To begin with, Kashmiris will be lucky if India and Pakistan allow them the right to life and mere existence in the future. They will luckier still if they get to exercise the right to liberty and freedoms granted by the Indian Constitution to begin with.
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/insights/insight981100d.html

krashid, tahmed, dostmittar,

Krashid and I might not agree on the Ahmadi issue, but I am sure Krashid also doesn’t believe that the Pakistani constitution has any right to define who is not a Muslim. I agree with tahmed on the Ahmadi issue, but I believe the definition of the Muslim given by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) is even simpler than the one tahmed is giving… which is the kalima.. ‘there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet’ which is also the Kalima of the Ahmadis… hence the Ahmadis are as good of Muslims as anyone. With regards to Dost Mittar, the great financial and political clout that Agha Khan enjoys in Pakistan seems to have more weight than the threats of Mullahs for those rulers of Pakistan who are moved by necessity of maintaining personal kursi at all costs. Besides I find Ismailis to be the best kind of Muslims. As for the Druze, they are doing very well in the multicultural Lebanon… won’t you say?

Dear Layman,

About the freedom struggle… In Punjab and Sindh and to some extent in Bengal, the struggle for Pakistan was also the struggle for freedom from the British. Here is the reason why. Punjab and Sindh atleast were ruled by the Unionist Party under the Sikandar and Khizer Hayat Tiwana. The Unionist Party was anti-all India parties, like the Congress and the League… whereas both League and Congress stood for the complete Independence of the Indian subcontinent in the 1930s and 1940s, the curious alliance between Muslim Landlords and Hindu industrialists that the Unionist Party was, it was loyalist. In Punjab both Congress and League couldn’t succeed for a very long time given the feudal structure which perpetuated the Unionist Rule. Many Historians have argued that the League took up the Pakistan demand to mobilize the masses behind it to wrest control from the Unionist Party which it did successfully in the 1940s. So when the Muslim League Workers were arrested en masse in 1946 and 1947 they were arrested by the British government for protesting against the British Backed Tiwana Ministry. As early as 1940, all land holders in Punjab who switched to the League from the Unionist Party lost their lands… this included my own great grandfather… who was till then an ‘honorary magistrate’ in his area. So the answer is that the struggle of Pakistan in Punjab and Sindh was greatly intertwined with the struggle for freedom in these areas as unlike the rest of the India where Congress came to represent the freedom movement, in these areas it was the League which represented the anti-British feeling. The sad part of course is that when Pakistan was created the Unionists joined the League in large numbers making the Punjab Muslim League a natural successor of the much hated Unionist Party. Whereas Khizer Hayat was the stalwart of the Unionist Party, his political successor Khuda Baksh Tiwana contests election from Bulwal on a Muslim League ticket. Here Jinnah and his followers failed.



You raise a very interesting point about Arabic’s case as the national language of Pakistan. The Bengalis asked for the same thing… I think it was FazlulHaq who said Arabic would be acceptable as a National language to all Bengalis, but to me it really doesn’t make sense. You see, even the classical Two Nation Theory spoke of South Asian Muslims as a nation distinct even from Arab Muslims as from South Asian Hindus. Dr.Iqbal, in his famous address that gave the idea of Pakistan at Allahabad in 1930, mentioned the ‘protection of South Asian Islam from Arab Imperialism’. Similarly Jinnah, being a Khoja Shiite gujurati by birth, wasn’t a big fan of the Arabs or the Arab straitjacket Islam. Many of the customs, as Jinnah pointed out to a Hindu friend, in his Islam were of Hindu origin which made it more colorful. The case for Arabic as the national language of Pakistan was perhaps only as strong as the case for English… since the former meant the continuation of Arab Imperialism, the latter meant the continuation of British Imperialism. Despite Jinnah’s repeated warnings against Pakistan being a theocracy, over time the mullahs still managed to sneak in the Federal Shariat court, the Blasphemy law, the Hudood ordinance (through Zia)… Can you imagine what they would have done to us, if Arabic was to become the National Language of Pakistan.

Urdu in my opinion was the only option… and it was accepted by the Non-Urdu speaking millions of West Pakistan… so the Bengalis were in my opinion wrong in not accepting Urdu as the national language though all their other grievances were justified… besides Bengali was given the Provincial Language status early on, and then Equal National Language status in the 1950s.

-YLH