The Hindu Right

Ref 12-headed-snake-Nagnatheshwar #: 127

[Thats totally uncalled for

Mix up occur by Pilots, Doctors & presidents too]

Yep. Like the Saudia pilot who landed his 747 at the Tambaram Air base in Chennai instead of at the International Airport. Or the OTHER Saudia pilot who managed to fly his plane into another near Palam Airport in Delhi.

Mix up by doctors? Do you want to wash your own dirty linen in public?

Reply Hobbes # 132

“Zafar, do you think the VHP spokesman might have a point? “

Togadia is clearly trying to intimidate the Prez into not making any sort of statement which the Central Govt might find uncomfortable. IMO it’s Kalam’s duty as the President for the whole country to make a clear statement about what the Govt’s Raj Dharm is wrt Gujarat, where it failed so tragically – and, importantly, what it must do now. Will he do his duty or not? Let’s see.

Reply Rsax # 108

“...you found italian cafes in australia?...whoa…”

Where else yaar? Italy meiN thodi hothe hain.

Compared to the US Australia got a much higher proportion of its population growth after WWII from Southern Europe – Melbourne, or should I say Melvourni, is still the third largest Greek speaking city in the world, and used to be the second largest till it was overtaken by Thessaloniki about a decade ago – so the cultural influence of Italy, Greece (and Malta, Turkey and Lebanon) is greater on pop culture, including coffee drinking habits. (At least in the metros, where abuout 80% of the pop lives. If you go to Woopwoop, on the other hand…)

Reply arjun_m # 105

“What makes you think i would use my real name on the internet? :)”

Who’s to say whether chowk is more or less real than mundane reality? In some ways it is certainly more honest, regardless of which name one uses, no?

hobbes #133, pmisra #135, hobbes #140

The spectacle of an avowedly non-secular Pakistani working himself up into a foaming lather while pretending to instruct an outspokenly secular-minded Indian in the subtler aspects of Indian secularism would always make for rip-roaring comedy. But - given that our savant has lately been observed repeatedly muttering imprecations against `apologists`, `tokens`, `token-collectors`, `good Muslims `. etc. etc. ad amusem - his choice of an article by B G Verghese of all people, as his instructional text, lends this rollicking farce an additional piquantly ironic subtext of which the learned professor is in all likelihood blithely unaware.

[Since `independence`, Hindus have enjoyed a clear superiority in decision-making.]

[I read and (intend to) write about the effects of communalism/casteism, globalization etc.]

Stick this up your tailpipe.

Under current rules, minority institutions in India can choose admission criteria to EXCLUDE anyone based on their status as a majority, even when that institution receives government funding. Thus, a Muslim-founded college could receive financial aid from the government yet choose not to admit anyone except Muslims. The same thing applies to other minorities such as Christians.

However, since the law specifically says ``minorities``, a college founded by or associated mainly with Hindus has to admit Muslims and Christians if it receives government aid. This provision is being challenged before the Supreme Court right now and Soli Sorabjee, the Attorney-General of India (one would guess Mr. Sorabjee is a Parsi from his name), is arguing that this law is perfectly valid. (He is arguing for the Hindutva-dominated, BJP-led government, in case a$$holes like you miss the point.)

(Arya Samaj and Ramakrishna Mission have had to disassociate themselves from mainstream Hinduism to get the benefits of the above law.)

So, a Hindu has to be real nice to Muslims but a Muslim can be nasty to Hindus, according to the law in India.

Compare this to the United States. When the students enrolled in a college apply for and get Federal aid for their studies, the Federal Government has claimed that ALL non-discriminatory provisions of law apply. Presumably, the basis for this is that the aid the student receives goes to the college in the form of tuition and thus the college is also a beneficiary. Grove College in Pennsylvania cut off all students applying for Federal aid rather than accept this stringent condition and spend multi-million dollars on a female basketball team.

Kok-scuker, I want you to write about this on Chowk. I want to see the contortions you go through to justify this kaka.

[Though highly misleading, I have persisted with the use of `independence`. This should be taken to mean, following Kaifi Azmi, the transition from `gora hakim raj` to `kaala hakim raj`.]

No, you mufukka, in Tamil Nadu you have attained the height of Tamil civilization.

Last week, a college girl went to a movie with her boyfriend in Chennai. A bunch of students from the New College for Arts and Sciences were also at the theater and called out to her, ``yeh, Nee romba azhaga irukkey``. (This happens to be the title of a recent movie and means ``Hey, you are very beautiful``.) The girl, being the daughter of an army man, did not take this kaka and objected to the vulgar familiarity. When the abusers continued, she slapped one of them. In return, they started hitting her and a passing policeman intervened. When he was overpowered, he called for reinforcements and a couple of the miscreants were arrested and thrown in jail while the girl was admitted to the hospital. This type of events certainly did not happen until Doctor Artist Leader, known for writing movie scripts, ascended to the Chief Ministership of Tamil Nadu. We now know exactly what kind of raj we have in Tamil Nadu where a good-looking girl cannot venture out of her home.

You, Kaka Dispenser, should find this story heartwarming for an entirely different reason. The leader of the gang who happens to be the Student Union President of New College is a Muslim; he was accompanied by his Hindu classmates. The girl who was attacked is named Grace so one would assume she is Christian. Finally, we have attained secularism under Dravidian leadership!

Pmishra2

Entirely too defensive; Critical reading is necessary for comprehension - ``Hindu fanatics Read`` - so that they may understand their psychosis - ``Tokens learn `` so that they may understand what ``secular-ism`` does and does not mean - As for you, close your mouth, it attracts flies and (wait, wait for it) pay attention! learn to think as you read:

``GUJARAT has rent the country asunder by questioning the very idea of India. The Muslim League tried to divide people but failed ...``

The fabric of the idea of India has been torn by the events in Gujjrat - Muslim league failed when it tried but who is it that is now tearing the fabric of India? What is the political and religious affilication of this group?

``That the forces of Hindutva should now seek regressively to validate the two-nation theory is both-tragedy and farce``

Hindutva forces, HINDUTVA - get it yet genious? Who is validating TNT?

``The immediate task at hand is to rehabilitate the victims of hate in Gujarat..``

Question: Someone has been victimized - who has been victimized? Who was the victimizer?

``Civil society must step in to fulfil this solemn duty from which the Central and Gujarat

governments have resiled.``

Who has failed to prevent the tearing of the fabric of the idea of India?

``The larger task is to mend India. This calls for introspection about what has gone wrong. Why should a section of Parivar Hindus feel oppressed and inferior when they are so obviously part of the dominant majority and ruling elite in every sense? Why this warped self-image, the lurking grudge and retreat into the dim past when it is the future that beckons?``

What went wrong? Parivar Hindus feel oppressed and inferior - are you a Parivar Hindu by any chance?

At one level, the ordinary mingling and jostling of everyday living in India has produced a remarkable inter-cultural penetration over generations in every field. Maybe at another level, there has been a relative absence of meaningful social discourse in recent times, with community leaders talking at rather than with one another. Where there is dialogue, the terms of discourse have been skewed.

``Yet the constantly reiterated concept of sarva dharma sambhava implies equal respect for all faiths, not atheism; for India is a highly religious society. “Equal respect” is, however, difficult to practice when so little has been done to teach even the rudiments of the great religious traditions that flourish in the country.``

Secularism does not mean that we do not teach ethics and morality of the great religions in our schools - As I have been trying to impress upon Eklavya. All the principles of Ethics and Morality that one needs and that have served for thousands of years are in the religions - they are the basis of the religions teachings.

``Sarva dharma sambhava has at best established a sense of “separate but equal”, quite the opposite of fraternity, the major social premise of the Constitution.``

``Seperate but equal`` has come into the the common consciousness based on supreme court decisions of which country? What did the decisions seek to do or undo?

``The term “secular” was not found in the Constitution (except in Article 25 where it is

used in its “wordly” meaning) until inserted into the Preamble by Indira Gandhi in 1976.``

In other words lets examine if we have not gone over board with this notion of separating the state from the ethics and morality, most derive from their religious teachings and which have been an anchor for india thruough the millenia.

``The Founding Fathers rightly preferred the broader and nobler term Fraternity

(togetherness, bonding, brotherhood) which encompasses much more than “secular” or sarva dharma sambhava. Unfortunately, the meaning and practice of secularism was soon distorted.``

``Togetherness`` not separtion - You getting this yet, genius?

``The adjustment of deep-seated mind-sets and primordial emotions to changing political, economic and technological circumstances takes time. India is going through such a period of transition. The process has been slow and halting because social reform and the concept of fraternity have not been given the importance they deserve in nation building witness the ham-handed manner in which matters of “official language” or cross-community and elite-to-people communications have been traced. The country has been all but bereft of social reforms after Gandhi and Ambedkar and, maybe, Vinoba Bhave and Jayaprakash Narayan. “Godmen” are no substitutes.``

``Godmen`` - which ``Godmen``? - You following?

``Another flaw in the country’s secular framework lies in the political investment made in the expression “minority”.``

What? you been talking about flaws? in The ``Secular`` framework? Do you think he means that there are structural problems that have lead to the present situation? Does that means tokens (you know who you are), when they say Muslims are percieved as X or Y or Z by the ``Majority`` community, do not acknowledge that the flaws is structural and has little to do with the actions or not of the ``minority`` ?????

``The Constitution recognises religious, linguistic and cultural minorities who are

accorded the right “to establish and administer educational institutions of their choice” and guaranteed protection of their customary laws and way of life (if Scheduled Tribes). These are valid safeguards that are not constitutionally extended to the majority community in terms only because they hold the reins of governance in their hands in any democratic calculus.``

Is this fair - are all citizens equal or not???? apparently not - how is that? It is built into the structure of the understanding of Democracy in India - and I hope never in Pakistan - for it will be betrayal for sure. No subsidies for particular groups, no privelages for particular groups or individuals.

``Recognition of a minority implies the existence of a majority. A person’s religion for the most part is an accident of birth and less of independent persuasion, except by adult choice or conversion.``

Back to religion and sectarian complexion??

``Faith essentially is and should be personal, though rituals are prescribed and

administered by religious establishments. Furthermore, individuals do take part in congregational worship and other observances and community festivals, many of which are, however, becoming secular occasions, market opportunities and, alas, even political manifestations.``

In other words, even if one has to repeat the meaningless notion, that faith is personal, as opposed to what? It does find public ``expression`` - Alas, it won`t stay bottled up and ``personal``.

``Unfortunately, faith has been politicised and, religious communities/denominations,

like caste, sought to be treated as vote banks. This has put a premium on numbers and electoral/political power, whereas being part of a “minority” or “majority” is in many ways more a matter of attitude than of numbers. A self-assured, well-educated, confident Parsee, Sikh, Christian or Muslim seldom sees himself as a “minority” as he can hold his own among the rest. The same can be said about the “son of the soil” (bhoomiputra) once he knows he can withstand economic and social competition on merit. It is the weak, uncertain and diffident who suffer a minority complex``

``faith politicised``? Why? What is the purpose of politicising in such a melieu? Is it true that politics in India and for some in Pakistan, is about ``demanding`` X, Y, or Z, basically a politics of confrontation and agitation? So to what bidder has faith been sold to ? Does this suggest a flawed understanding of ``secular-ism``? Does this point to a structural problem???

``Similarly, the Hindutva crowd constitutes a vociferous minority in India because of the strange inferiority complex it exhibits. This condition calls for correction through dialogic therapy. Both majoritarianism and minorityism should be eschewed.``

``In any event... “minority”... derogates from the principle of equality of citizenship and has by wrong usage come to imply a patron-client relationship.``

You gettin this?

[It hasn`t got any better since then, as is evident from the PUCL report on the 1997 riots in Coimbatore. The bomb blasts in January 1998 were triggered by a section of Muslims incensed with police brutality, in particular, with the murder of several Muslims by the police and the HR in November 1998.]

I suppose that the recent movie ``Minority Report`` made a strong impression on your infantile brain. That is the only way one could set off bombs as a consequence of an act that would follow 10 months LATER.

Ra Ravishankar? You should change your name to Kaka Dispenser. Let us see how wonderfully consistent your arguments are.

Premise 1:

[The Indian state is not answerable for the misdeeds of past rulers, who had no qualms about securing justice, liberty and equality to their citizens. In the absence of hard evidence, the most reasonable way to deal with claims of compensation (such as those made by the HR) seems to be to maintain the status quo, as of August 15, 1947.]

Fine, everything stays static from Aug 15, 1947.

Premise 2:

[The fact that the HR has to resort to events of the distant past to justify its pogrom against Muslims is a giveaway that successive governments have been anything but anti-Hindu. Feelings of having been wronged by the Muslims are therefore, entirely misplaced (2). In retaliating against Muslims to avenge the misdeeds of Mahmud of Gazni et al, the HR ends up emulating those it claims to despise. Whether this reflects its hypocrisy or moral and intellectual bankruptcy (or both) is open to debate.]

Great! The Govt of India and its constituent states have no business attempting to right past wrongs. On Aug 15, 1947, India starts off with a clean slate.

Conclusion:

The Mandal Commission had no business recommending 50% reservation of all educational and employment opportunies for backward classes. In fact the 25% reservation for 25 years guaranteed in the constitution was incorrect, its indefinite extension was in correct and increasing it to 50% was incorrect.

But Kaka Dispenser says [The implementation of the Mandal Commission Recommendations (advocating reservations in education and jobs for the socially underprivileged classes), and the backlash orchestrated by the media and the Hindu upper castes further strengthened the HR.] without criticizing the Mandal Commission or denouncing its recommendations.

Of course, if you are one of the OBCs and you get to benefit by a quota programme, then logic goes out the window. If now you profess sympathy with the Muslims as one of the downtrodden, you can hope to increase your supporters without having to share any of the reserved positions with the Muslims; the ultimate case of having one`s cake and eating it too.

Of course when you have 87% reservation for the OBCs, Kaka Dispenser gets into an engineering college and is granted a degree in electrical engineering whereas his real qualifications will entitle him to a job as a sanitary engineer with the local municipality.

But having come to the US, Kaka Dispenser finally has a chance to discover the true meaning of being blind to history. Just like blacks and Hispanics can GET INTO colleges on the basis of their ethnicity buy CANNOT GRADUATE on that basis alone, Kaka is going to find out that he will have to do his 4 year undergraduate degree FOR REAL if he is to earn a PhD even from the University of Southwestern Arkansas.

Ref rsaxena #: 129

[re: harimau

{Ref Sangilikkaruppan}

...who?...]

The guy who claims he loves Soysauce on everything even though he grew up on karuvattu-kuzhambu.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...India accomplished the accession of princely States into India BEFORE it developed a strong federal constitution...``

There has been a miscommunication somewhere. I intended to state that a strong centre (unlike the one proposed by the Cabinet Mission Plan of `46) was needed by Congress`s reckoning to manage the chaos of amalgamating 535 princely states. None of these had acceded in `46 (they didn`t have to until `47 anyway).

hobbes #133

Do you bother to read the articles you publish? Perhaps you skipped reading and were only taught to cut and paste in your educational institution?

In complete contrast to your sectarian preface, the article in question is a carefully reasoned exposition of the growth and strength of the ``secular`` or ``sarva dharmma sambhav`` model of the indian state. It is written with care and does not blame all of the problems in india on any one community.

Blood thirtsty Hindu fanatics - READ, apologists and toens - Learn

From ``The Tribune`` dtd today

``The Indian idea: towards fraternity-I

Secularism, religion, culture & minority syndrome

B. G. Verghese

GUJARAT has rent the country asunder by questioning the very idea of India. The Muslim League tried to divide people but failed and had to rest content with dividing territory. Though partitioned, India remained India, something more than just geography. It embraces the history, culture, values and aspirations of a richly plural society and combines many streams and traditions down the ages.

That the forces of Hindutva should now seek regressively to validate the two-nation theory is both-tragedy and farce. This will not succeed. Yet, it represents a challenge that needs to be confronted by dialogue and reconciliation. The immediate task at hand is to rehabilitate the victims of hate in Gujarat and ensure that their citizenship is made whole again through justice, the restoration of dignity and removal of fear.

The word “rehabilitate” in its original sense meant ‘to invest with dignity’, a noble intent far removed from the squalid official pretence in Gujarat. Civil society must step in to fulfil this solemn duty from which the Central and Gujarat governments have resiled.

The larger task is to mend India. This calls for introspection about what has gone wrong. Why should a section of Parivar Hindus feel oppressed and inferior when they are so obviously part of the dominant majority and ruling elite in every sense? Why this warped self-image, the lurking grudge and retreat into the dim past when it is the future that beckons?

At one level, the ordinary mingling and jostling of everyday living in India has produced a remarkable inter-cultural penetration over generations in every field. Maybe at another level, there has been a relative absence of meaningful social discourse in recent times, with community leaders talking at rather than with one another. Where there is dialogue, the terms of discourse have been skewed.

Secularism, for instance, is a basic feature of the Constitution, literally and Article of Faith. The dictionary meaning of “secular” is to be wordly and in the Indian context the term was perhaps meant to signify separation of the church from the state. Yet the constantly reiterated concept of sarva dharma sambhava implies equal respect for all faiths, not atheism; for India is a highly religious society. “Equal respect” is, however, difficult to practice when so little has been done to teach even the rudiments of the great religious traditions that flourish in the country.

Sarva dharma sambhava has at best established a sense of “separate but equal”, quite the opposite of fraternity, the major social premise of the Constitution. The term “secular” was not found in the Constitution (except in Article 25 where it is used in its “wordly” meaning) until inserted into the Preamble by Indira Gandhi in 1976. The Founding Fathers rightly preferred the broader and nobler term Fraternity (togetherness, bonding, brotherhood) which encompasses much more than “secular” or sarva dharma sambhava. Unfortunately, the meaning and practice of secularism was soon distorted.

The Muslim underclass was orphaned at Partition with the exodus of many among the community’s elite and professionals to Pakistan. Its residual leadership vested with “nationalist Muslims” and the clergy after the integration of princely states and zamindari abolition effectively removed the latter two categories from the political scene. To a traumatised community besieged by uncertainty, it appeared prudent to cling to orthodoxy. Modernising Muslim tendencies for years received short shift from the government in the name of a touch-me-not “secularism”.

Culture is far wider than religion. But failure to distinguish the one from the other further distorted the meaning and practice of “secularism”. Urdu, a rich and uniquely Indian language, was an early “Muslim” casualty because of its part-Persian legacy. Few who make such fatuous denominational distinctions realise that a good part of their English usage in ordinary conversation draws a great deal from the Bible. The Oxford English dictionary is said to contain over 3000 Indian words. This is enrichment, not aggression.

Everyday way-of-life customs such as bhoomi puja, saraswati puja or the celebration of Vishwakarma are correspondingly criticised as “Hindu” rituals violative of secularism if performed on public platforms. There is no such regressive thinking in Indonesia, the world’s largest Islamic state or Buddhist Thailand and Cambodia all of which celebrate their “Hindu” cultural roots. The great Muslim exponents of Hindustani music sing in praise of Ram and Krishna. The blending of “Hindu”, “Muslim” and other traditions in food, dress, architecture, rituals, festivals, sufi-rishi practices and much else is evident all over India.

The teaching of history has been distorted by an unreal categorisation into so-called Hindu/ancient and Muslim/medieval periods emphasising dynastic rule and mutually antagonistic heroes and villains. In truth, after the first Muslim conquest, later invaders were challenged by Hindu-Muslim coalitions and overthrew extant Muslim regimes in Delhi. Beyond the court circle, Hindus and Muslims shared the same joys and suffered similar oppression at different times. The people’s history of India was not denominationally segmented.

However, revivalists see things differently. For Some, history ended around 1000 AD with the Muslim conquest. Honour was only restored in 1947. In Hindutva’s new parlance, Porus’s battle against Alexander was the “first war of Independence” and the 1857 Revolt the second. Muslim revivalists on the other hand mourn the period after Plassey as a Dark Age of servitude. The rise and growth of Islam happened to coincide with the ascendancy of the Caliphate whose ending after World War I saw some in India seeking its restoration. It took a while after Independence for such elements to come to terms with the reality of nation-states and to reconcile themselves to the fact that secular India was not Dar-ul-Harb. On the other hand, the genius of Hindu India has been to make space for everybody and accommodate divergent tendencies within a greater oneness.

The adjustment of deep-seated mind-sets and primordial emotions to changing political, economic and technological circumstances takes time. India is going through such a period of transition. The process has been slow and halting because social reform and the concept of fraternity have not been given the importance they deserve in nation building witness the ham-handed manner in which matters of “official language” or cross-community and elite-to-people communications have been traced. The country has been all but bereft of social reforms after Gandhi and Ambedkar and, maybe, Vinoba Bhave and Jayaprakash Narayan. “Godmen” are no substitutes.

Another flaw in the country’s secular framework lies in the political investment made in the expression “minority”. The Constitution recognises religious, linguistic and cultural minorities who are accorded the right “to establish and administer educational institutions of their choice” and guaranteed protection of their customary laws and way of life (if Scheduled Tribes). These are valid safeguards that are not constitutionally extended to the majority community in terms only because they hold the reins of governance in their hands in any democratic calculus.

Recognition of a minority implies the existence of a majority. A person’s religion for the most part is an accident of birth and less of independent persuasion, except by adult choice or conversion. Faith essentially is and should be personal, though rituals are prescribed and administered by religious establishments. Furthermore, individuals do take part in congregational worship and other observances and community festivals, many of which are, however, becoming secular occasions, market opportunities and, alas, even political manifestations.

Every individual has multiple identities defined by sex, age (child/senior citizen), occupation, cultural attributes/preferences, interests and so forth. This may render him/her a majority under one category and a minority under another. Dr Karan Singh has often said that he is part of the majority community in India, but is a minority in J&K though again restored to majority status in Jammu.

Likewise, Sikhs are the majority community in Punjab and Christians in Mizoram and Nagaland. Often, however, people do not change as much as their appellations do. The label “minority/Muslim” or “majority/Hindu” is not necessarily what they themselves choose but what is pinned on them. It is the others’ perception that gives one his/her public persona. Ehsan Jafri died not because of what he was but for what he was perceived to be by a frenzied and misguided mob.

Unfortunately, faith has been politicised and, religious communities/denominations, like caste, sought to be treated as vote banks. This has put a premium on numbers and electoral/political power, whereas being part of a “minority” or “majority” is in many ways more a matter of attitude than of numbers. A self-assured, well-educated, confident Parsee, Sikh, Christian or Muslim seldom sees himself as a “minority” as he can hold his own among the rest. The same can be said about the “son of the soil” (bhoomiputra) once he knows he can withstand economic and social competition on merit. It is the weak, uncertain and diffident who suffer a minority complex

Thus Sinhalese often betray a minority psychosis vis-a-vis the minority Tamils in Sri Lanka. Similarly, the Hindutva crowd constitutes a vociferous minority in India because of the strange inferiority complex it exhibits. This condition calls for correction through dialogic therapy. Both majoritarianism and minorityism should be eschewed.

In any event, it is quaint to describe the 130 million and more Muslims in India as a minority. This is to drain words of meaning. At best Muslims are a “minority” in relation to Hindus, no more. The term in fact derogates from the principle of equality of citizenship and has by wrong usage come to imply a patron-client relationship.

Hence the RSS formulation that minorities must “earn” the goodwill of the majority community. The Canadians have dealt with this problem more creatively by formally labelling their tiny Inuit (Eskimo) community the country’s “second majority”.

Article 30 gives minorities the right to run their own educational institutions. These enable them to make senior appointments and “administer” these institutions and to reserve up to 50 per cent of admissions to members of their own community even though they are beneficiaries of government aid. The width and ambit of this Article is currently being argued before the Supreme Court.

The Arya Samaj and Ramakrishna Mission have in the past pleaded minority status to be able to establish and administer their own institutions. This is odd; but answers can be found to such conundrums. However, it is not obvious that minority educational rights discriminate against the majority in any real sense. Ultimately, what matters is conformity to prescribed standards and, more than that, excellence — whether the institutions be convents or madarsas or shishu mandirs and vidya bharatis run by the Sangh Parivar.

(To be concluded)

The writer is Visiting Professor, Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi``

Zafar

From Hindustan Times - dtd today:

``Kalam visit creating suspicion’

President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam arrives in Gujarat on Monday on a two-day visit amid controversy. His visit is being considered significant as the victims of the disturbances in Gujarat belong to the minority community.

``His action in selecting Gujarat as his first official destination has created suspicion in the minds of Hindus,`` VHP international secretary Pravin Togadiya said in Ahmedabad on Sunday.

``It is now up to the President to clear the suspicion that he is above religion, caste or creed,`` Togadiya said.``

Zafar, do you think the VHP spokesman might have a point?

re: harimau

{Ref Sangilikkaruppan}

...who?...