The Hindu Right

Welcome to Chowk! This was a very good article--however I am afraid that voices like yours are fast becoming the minority in India and I really feel that the Muslims of India are about to face a even more torrid time than they have already.

I appreciate your candour and honesty though in exposing the truth about the HR. Alas, I don`t think voices like yours will be heeded.

I am what you would probably call a member of the Muslim Right in my views. I prefer to call myself a Traditionalist. I am a British -Pakistani and I cannot see how the Muslims of India can protect themselves in the future from further state sponsored pogroms and discrimination.

The only solution I can think of is for them to unite politically (is their no major Muslim political arm in India?), and maintain a low profile. However I fear that they will have to arm themselves and fight fire with fire (since the HR understand no other language) and thus take a lesson from their Palestinian brothers who are resisting Israeli occupation. (To the credit of the Jews they have--as yet--to descend to the level of the barbarity of the HR; after all they ARE monotheists...)

The only other hope I can see is for the Muslim World to intervene on their behalf but that--given our leaders at present--seems only a pipe-dream. Still we can only hope insha Allah...that a united, Islamic, Muslim world will emerge soon and more to our topic a united, strong Islamic Pakistan which will see it as its duty to protect its fellow Muslims in India. Perhaps the Arabs will use their oil weapon to compel the HR to stop its pogroms...But these are long term goals...

Perhaps the ISI (and Mujahideen) can do something like they did in the riots of the early 90s in Bombay? (I have read that it was they who were responsible for the bomb blasts which finally put an end to the killing of Muslims. Perhaps they should start to target the leaders of the HR beginning with Advani. I am sure once their leaders are killed the ordinary people wont have much appetite for Ram Raj.)

I pray for a leader to arise in India from the Muslims who can unite them...



I fear for the future of Muslims in India...

May Allah hasten the arrival of The Mahdi alayhisalam.

amin.

Ay KhaaS e khaaSan e Rusul * waqt e dua hai

Ummat pe teri aaj ajab waqt aan paRa hai...

Jo qawm baRee dhoom se niklee thee watan se

Pardes mein aaj woh ghareeb ul ghuraba hai

*sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam

:-(

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Sometimes this is too much. I feel like crying at times when I read about how cruelty can blacken the hearts of men.

To my Indian friends, I must make an appeal here: Please do not take this as criticism of the Hindu traditions, India or Indian entity and Identity. It is a critique of the Indian Administration and Indian Government. There is no point starting a war here. Please think twice before you respond to this article.Indian Muslims are just as Indian as anyone else in that country. There are known issues and problems that need to be worked on. Citation of sources from either sides to refute or affirm charges is not going to do anyone any good. I would suggest that the Muslims of India need to do some reflection of their own. They need to set an agenda for the next generation of Indian Muslims and they need to make sure that the priorities and aspirations of India as a nation (not necessarily the governement) find a high place of mention in there. Unfortunately Muslims in India will have to do that without any hope of reciprocal show of goodwill from the Hindu Extremists.

I am reminded of an incident that occured in the early political life of Gandhi where he had a Catholic priest visit him from South Africa who admired Gandhi for his views. Gandhi had him admitting at the end of the meeting that he (the priest) would be more of an admirer if Gandhi was catholic.



That is the situation with the Hindu right. They are not going to be happy until all the Muslims convert to Hinduism. That is one thing that they have in common with the Muslim Extremists.

But I am sure that an initiative on the part of the Muslims in India will encourage the enlightened majority of Hindu community within India. I am placing the onus on the Muslims in this case because those are unfortunately the cards that they have been dealt. They are a minority. They are economically weak. They are the last of all communities in education. They have to face the realities with a stout heart. Unfortunately, I personally am not able to do much but I intend to do what I can when I find the ability to do so. Until then, I hope I can be joined by the like minded people among the Hindu community in helping to get us all together for the putting out of the communal fires that threaten to burn all of us.

re: asif

...some of your buddies got a free cruise to guantanamo bay...delicious food, new clothes, and lots of onboard activities...interested?...

Why am i not surprised that bigots like Asif Naqshbandi, who are the exact equivalent of the Singhal and Togadia types, are quick to jump in with their sectarian prayers ! I guess it takes a thief to catch a thief.

This is a good article. It would be better if it did not brush off the Shah Bano decision as a minor issue. As M. J. Akbar has correctly pointed out, this deeply foolish intervention by muslim politicians helped convince a large number of middle-of-the road indians that the muslim leadership had only the narrowest and most sectarian interest in india. Basically, these foolish leaders ultimately helped to trap their own community.

Ra Ravishankar

Mr./Ms. Ravishankar:

What are the general principles at work here? This piece has many specifics, many particulars, yet I must say, that I am not sure I have become aware of the general intellectual foundations for such ideas as, blaming present Muslim Indians for event of the distant past, of for the feeling of inferiority by Hindus? What impications does the rise of this facism have for notions that in the past 10-15 years india has ``progressed``? What implications for the nature of education imparted to indians? What is it in the Hindu Indians that finds a comfort in such ideas, especially as it relates to hatred and violence against the Muslim? Are be not bound by conscience, to understand these and to apply an appropriate ``marham`` on these instead of all these particulars?

What are intellectual foundations of ideas of Gora and kaala? How is it that such objectionable notions have gained legitimacy among seemingly educated Indian persons? On the basis of which intellectual foundations is it OK to posit propositions as racist when utter by some western or non-Hindu person, but entirely respected when uttered in reverse by Hindu persons? is this not related to notion of exclusivity and by extension to notions of caste?

While I share your concern and conscience, I am not entirely sure I understand why the constitution ought not be revisited? After all, does the constitution not bear any responsibility for the failures we are witness to? Shall indian persons continue to believe that HR has more valid more potent ideas than any other stake holders?

Modern day Hindu Indians, generally, hold Muslims responsible for the break up of india, even today, the threat of breaking up is deposited on the doorstep of the Muslim, yet clearly, facts do not support such a conclusion, exactly the opposite - why then do such ideas have such a strong appeal in India?

Please help me understand why more Hindu indians, who actually hold hinduism as a religion or expression of religiosity as opposed to a nationalist identity - why is it that they don`t fear what may be the effect on this religion? Where nationalism and religious identity are indistingushable?

An excellent, timely article. Today, there is no greater challenge to the soul of India than the recent rise of Hindu fascism. This misguided movement is a threat to every Indian, Hindu or Muslim. All Indians of conscience must oppose this and such movements in every possible way.

Arjun M, Asif

From the SriKrishna report:

http://www.altindia.net/Srikrishna%20Report/volume1/CHAPTER%20VI.html

i) One common link between the riots of December 1992 and January 1993 and Bomb Blasts of 12th March 1993 appear to be that the former appear to have been a causative factor for the latter. There does appear to be a cause and effect relationship between the two riots and the serial bomb blasts.

ii) Another common link is that some of the accused who were involved in substantive riot-related offences were also accused in the serial bomb blasts case, though their number is only three or four.

iii) Tiger Memon, the key figure in the serial bomb blasts case and his family had suffered extensively during the riots and therefore can be said to have had deep rooted motive for revenge. It would appear that one of his trusted accomplices, Javed Dawood Tailor @ Javed Chikna, had also suffered a bullet injury during the riots and therefore he also had a motive for revenge. Apart from these two specific cases, there was a large amorphous body of angry frustrated and desperate Muslims keen to seek revenge for the perceived injustice done to and atrocities perpetrated on them or to others of their community and it is this sense of revenge which spawned the conspiracy of the serial blasts. This body of angry frustrated and desperate Muslims provided the material upon which the anti-national and criminal elements succeeded in building up their conspiracy for the serial bomb blasts.

viii) whether the incidents referred to in term (i) and in term (vi) were part of a common design.

i) There is no material placed before the Commission indicating that the riots during December 1992 and January 1993 and the serial blasts were part of a common design. In fact, this situation has been accepted by Mahesh Narain Singh who was heading the team of investigators who investigated into the serial bomb blasts case. He also emphasizes that the serial bomb blasts were a reaction to the totality of events at Ayodhya and Bombay in December 1992 and January 1993 and the Commission is inclined to agree with him.

Asif

In democracies political parties grow up in response to needs. It is indeed notable that there is no India-wide political party which campaigns on “Muslim-focused” issues and which gets the Muslim vote. (There is no such party in the UK either, is there?) What you may not be familiar with is the fact that studies show (you can find them either on tehelka.com or outlookindia.com, I forget which) that there is no discernible difference between the way Muslims and Hindus vote in most parts of India – this seems to indicate that the issues Hindus and Muslims find important are largely the same ones. Just something to think about when discussing representation in a democracy.

(For example, are Muslims the only people in India who should be concerned that a State Government turns its head the other way when violence against Muslims takes place? Clearly not, right? The Government’s failure is of concern to everyone – first of all for the morality of the issue, secondly enlightened self interest. Muslims today, but who will it be tomorrow?)

Do you believe that the legal rights and freedoms you enjoy as a Muslim from the UK are the result of the Muslim World blackmailing the Brits into extending equal rights to you, or do they spring from a political system which is now indigenous to Britain?

“Perhaps the Arabs will use their oil weapon to compel the HR to stop its pogroms...But these are long term goals...”

I don’t think that this would be a particularly long-lived solution, but I must ask: why a long term goal? The world has already seen an Arab oil embargo, it is not a new thing, in fact it is the one thing that the Arab oil producing states can do easily. So far they have not done any such thing, in fact they haven’t even downgraded ties with India. I cannot help wondering if your hope for Islamic solidarity is based on an understanding of the world that most Muslims do not share.

“Perhaps the ISI (and Mujahideen) can do something like they did in the riots of the early 90s in Bombay? (I have read that it was they who were responsible for the bomb blasts which finally put an end to the killing of Muslims. Perhaps they should start to target the leaders of the HR beginning with Advani. I am sure once their leaders are killed the ordinary people wont have much appetite for Ram Raj.)”

Ram Rajya (note spelling) refers to the reign of the King Ram (whose story is told in the Ramayana). It is a enduring motif in Indian thought, with the belief that under Ram the land was governed justly, that there was no corruption, discrimination or oppression, that the weak were protected from the strong. Ram Rajya has entered the political vocabulary of India (as have terms like “agnipariksha”, or “Lakshman rekha”), but unfortunately some take it to mean the Hindutva vision for India. That is in fact incorrect – Ram Rajya means what it always has. The Hindutva vision for India is demonstrably NOT Ram Rajya, regardless of what they might claim.

That said, I think that the motif of Ram Rajya – and the people’s desire for just governance – is not going to go away. Nor do I find it an unreasonable, or bad, desire – rather, it is entirely understandable. It is in fact exactly what most Indian Muslims want, though we may call it by a different name.

I am not telling you that your point of view is right or wrong – merely requesting that you think these issues through and see how the answers affect your stance.

Regards

Reply pmishra2 # 5

“This is a good article. It would be better if it did not brush off the Shah Bano decision as a minor issue. As M. J. Akbar has correctly pointed out, this deeply foolish intervention by muslim politicians helped convince a large number of middle-of-the road indians that the muslim leadership had only the narrowest and most sectarian interest in india.”

A whole set of actions in this vein (most recent the AIMPLB saying that Muslims should not be subject to the prevention of child marriages act because sharia allows child marriages – I cld WEEP!) also resulted, IMO, in IMs who are not midieval in their outlook taking themselves to other forums and arenas - to some extent leaving speaking for the “community” in the hands of these clowns. In taking and using our own freedom from the ghetto, something which we could do in most parts of India without difficulty, did we fail those whom we left behind by failing to combat ignorance, but merely contenting ourselves with ignoring it?

Some queries:

1. Has anyone responsible for the earlier Ayodhya killings, and the recent Gujrat killings been prosecuted? Indian courts seem to be quite free. Why aren`t they prosecuting the guilty parties?

2. Are there any moderate religious parties in India? Or is the only counter to the BJP a secular Congress, or secular provincial parties? This is why I am opposed to forcing secularism (or religionism) down the throats of societies at a stage when they are not ready for it. It results in extreme backlashes. It makes it very easy for the extremist parties (either secularatics or religionatics), as opposed to the moderate parties, to get the public emotional.

3. If Indians can vote out the BJP completely, then Indian society will have progressed by leaps and bounds. If the BJP is not voted out of power and out of opposition, then Indian Muslims specifically, and India as a whole, are in big trouble. It will indicate that the BJP is not an extremist party, since it is not on the extremes. It is a mainstream party, and not a passing phenomenon.

In such a case, I think the only party that could counter the BJP would be a large moderate, but religious Hindu party. I don`t think secular parties will then be able to take on the BJP, since the BJP`s whole strategy is to point out that secular parties have catered too much to the Muslim community. What happens if the BJP forms the oppostion after the next election?

5. Also, why do Indians seem so surprised at what the BJP has done? The BJP itself stated its policies in its own manifesto, again and again. And the manifesto has been published on the Internet for years. If Congress would have done something like this, one could understand the surprise, but why the surprise at the BJP? It is only doing what it stated it would do. Infact, what it is doing is still a watered down version of what it wanted to do.

6. Finally, even more important than the BJP, is the social condition of the Indian Muslims. I had one Indian describe this to me as a ticking time bomb. I would appreciate an objective reply from any Indian explaining whether the Indian Muslims are so far behind the Indian Hindus, that they have completely missed the bus, or not. And if this economic and educational gap is going to continue to increase, with the Hindus making progress, and the Muslims remaining stagnant or going backwards, then how does India plan to handle this, ``ticking time bomb,`` in the next decades? Specially when a party like the BJP is in power, which probably doesn`t seem to mind a backwards Muslim population.

7. And final question: it seems like the BJP is being defeated in the provincial elections everywhere. Is this because Indians are fed up with BJP`s extremist policies, or is it because the BJP hasn`t been an economic success, i.e. if the BJP had been able to be corruption-free and had continued high economic growth, would the mostly Hindu population of the provinces ignored BJP`s anti-Muslim policies and voted for it?

Any replies will be appreciated.....

Asif Naqshbandi -- did you have to jump in and muddy this debate with your two bit stupid Pan Islamic crap.

British citizen -- big deal -- didn`t do you much good either -- like Saeed.

The fact that this column was written by a Hindu Indian about the wretched, pathetic, bloody thirsty criminals of the Hindu Right -- who prey upon the poor and the weak -- is a testimony that the secular health of India is fine and dandy -- despite the temporary ascendency of murderers and thugs like Advanis in Indian politics.

hasan

Ra Ra`s support of Art.370 is yet another moronic manifestation of his highness. Art.370 among other things prevents anyone but a ``son-of-soil`` of J&K from owning immovable property within the State. If a daughter of the State marries an ``outsider`` she loses the right to the aforesaid right. By no stretch of imagination can this wretched piece of legislation - actually a temporary device according to its Statement of Objects and Reasons - have anything to do with India`s ``secular character`` or whatever. That Ra Ra chooses to quote the mendacious provocateur AG Noorani shows up his diatribe for the drivel it is. On the question of Coimbatore Ra Ra should not speak for the residents of that fair town. The incident that sparked the violence in the first place was the murder of a constable in plain-clothes by two anti-socials (who can be nominally termed Muslim). When the police went to arrest the perps they were attacked. The subsequent bomb blasts were aimed at Advani on his visit to make an election-related address in the city. LKA had a narrow escape. As for the police in Calcutta - the less said the better. The police of West Bengal are virtually the uniformed branch of the CPI-M. Even senior officers take their orders from party hacks - like in the days of the Old USSR!

The Uniform Civil Code proposed in the Directive Principles of State Policy is yet another brilliant proposal from B.R. Ambedkar. Ambedkar was unequivocal about being Indian, and said, ``I do not want that our loyalty as Indians should be in slightest way affected by any competitive loyalty whether that loyalty arises out of our religion, out of our culture, out of our language. I want all people to be Indian first, Indian last and nothing else.``

Asif #1 So I see you have not changed one whit over the past several months. Still seeking mullah rule. Here is what happened since we last exchanged notes: The Pakistanis are getting ready to hang one of your fellow Pakistani-British scum. He will no doubt save a seat for you in hell and await your arrival.

Until then, enjoy your life as a British citizen, protected by the same society that you reject, but which you or your parents no doubt lined up once to be allowed to live in.

Asif #1 That fellow scumbag I mention in my post below incidentally is omar sheikh, in case you are wondering.

nasah forgive me im going to indulge in a crass poltical generalization : you indians muslims come in 2 types : apologists for the current order (such as you ) and self-hatining to boot like your buddy kalam ..........and fanatics................you prove my point with your every post

ps if you think india is secular then pakistan is free of terrorism and violence

ASIF there is nothing wrong in being pan-islamic despite what certain indiviuals who have the gall to call themselves muslim might say .......these west-toxicated people are best left to themselves,,,,,,,,, pan-islam is not political it is spiritual bro......... we have to move away from a political pan -islamic mentality to more of a social view.................how can that be done: by example...............people who care about the ummat such as you do should focus on educational , humantarian , and cultural assitance and something that is progressive ......dont fall into the trap that people like nasah want you too .......change your program refrain from extremist and inciteful language and practice...........violence accomplishes nothing neither does extremism moderation and restraint will increace islam ....

amen and peace

and dont let haters discourage you

fawad #16

I am not an indian muslim so I cannot reply to you in terms you asked but I would like to make a related point.

What is the path forward for all indians, including muslims? It is nothing but the indian state, the indian constitution, the indian federal system. It is only be deepening these institutions and improving the quality of governance that we get anywhere. And we can only do that by working together. I do not see in the responses you mention anything else but an awaremeness of this fact.

The genius of india`s founders was to ensure that the symbols and language of the state had an ``indian`` feeling but not a sectarian feeling. This is true whether you are referring to the indian flag or the national anthem or the national song. We now have to go forward and construct from within a state that truly matches these symbols.

My humble suggestion to those who are being oppressed and attacked by oppressors is to adopt the universal symbols of the indian state. Why not have a march through Ahmedabad with tri-color proudly held high! Why not have the entire procession sing ``Jana Gana Mana`` or ``Sare Jehan See Accha``!

We will see if these ``hindu`` thugs, bigots and hatemongers have the guts to attack those who respect and reverence our nation and its symbols. Let this be broadcast on national TV! Within days the entire nation will understand who is ``anti-national`` and who is a patriot!

Unfortunately, we do not yet have people who fully appreciate the power of this symbolism and its meaning. This is true on both sides. With very few exceptions the indian muslim leadership has not yet realized how powerful a symbolism the indian flag, constitution and national songs provide. It is by embracing this identity in contrast to the hindu extremists which will expose the true anti-national and separatist forces.

You will recall that four years ago when there was a protest by indian christians in New York (Vajpayee was visiting) every marcher carried the tri-color and it began with the national anthem and ended with the national song. This kind of action is one of the reasons that the christians have been able to meet and defeat the sanghis.

asif: bearing what i posted in mind islam isnt the be all and end all of existence i support all movements that unify different people with shared values

nasah/tahmed123--

First of all I do not support the violent methods of Omar Saeed and other extremists; I DO support the idea of a pan-Islamic state achieved via non violent means.

This does not mean that I don`t think * *oppressed * * Muslims have the right to defend themselves to quote brother Malcolm X ``by all means necessary`` (eh in Palestine and now in India)as all oppressed peoples have rthe right of self-defense.

In India Muslims are facing state sponsored genocide but if someone stands up for them it seesm to hurt your bleeding liberal heart. Except it doesn`t seem to bleed when Muslims are being burned, killed, ripped apart etc.

As for the UK I am not against everything in this society and nor do i support eveything in this society. There are positives and negatives like in every country and I am a law abiding citizen thank you very much. (And freedom of speech is something allowed in an Islamic state too before you start lying again.)

AS for wanting ``mullah rule`` you are wrong. I want Shari`ah rule in Pakistan and other countries with Muslim majorities and the ulama should only play a guiding role to ensure that no edicts are passed which are against the Shar`iah. THe ulamah should not have a direct role in politics. What I want is a country which will protect the lives and honour and property of the Muslims and not sell them out for whatever wordly gains like our sorry bunch of current rulers. Is wanting the Muslim nations to be truly independent, developed, united and powerful a crime? Only to the enemies of Islam like yourself it seems...

In the meanwhile I believe like Fawad said that we should occupy ourselves with prayer and worship and being good Muslims, practising the Sunnah until Allah in His Mercy decideds to appoint a leader from amongst us who WILL unite us.

In the meanwhile may Allah help the Muslims of India. Ameen.

* * * *

nasah

If you think being pro Islamic is ``crap`` you should seriously worry about the status of your iman cos at the end of the day that is all that is going to matter when you are in your grave all alone and Munkir and Nakir come to question you....

* * *

As for the writer of this article I already congratulated him for his principled stance. I never said all non Muslims in India were bad. But one good article from a HIndu writer doesn`t mean that MUslims are not facing genocide in the coming years from the HR as voices like his are being obviously not listened to and in a minority. It no more proves that the secular heart of India is well than a single act of violence by a deranged Muslim proves that Islam is bad.

In fact it is the middle class in India who are increasingly turning to the HR...

* * *

Oh well if your name is Hasan then I hope for your sake when the HR come looking for Muslims that you are not around...

* * *

Muslims like you are the sort who sell out their own kind for a few lousy dollars or a position of authority. You remind me of the Kufans who were treacherous against Imam Husayn alayhisalam...

* * *

Mir Jafar and Mir SAdiq were cut from a similar cloth as you and your ilk. Mr. AJP Kalam seems to be another Muslim who is acceptable to the HR. It makes one wonder why....?

* * * *

At the end of the day the fact is that Muslims are going to have to stand up for themselves. No one else is going to help them. And those who think they will are living in cloud cuckoo land...

Of course if you are willing to become-as a RSS ``sevak`` said on a TV programme recently-``a Hindu Muslim`` then they will have no problem with you....

That is a decision everyone has to make for him or herself...

* * *

Finally this excellent article should have made you realise the truth about Indian ``secularism``. * * *

* * *

005.057

PICKTHAL: O Ye who believe! Choose not for guardians such of those who received the Scripture before you, and of the disbelievers, as make a jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to Allah if ye are true believers.

* * *

And we pray that Allah send Imam Mahdi soon!

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The Hindu Mahasabha and intractable positions! Ra Ra you have outdone yourself. Most leaders of the HM (Savarkar included) rejected Nazism unequivocally and encouraged Indians to join the Army in great numbers. Savarkar reasoned that this would provide them invaluable experience in the handling of weaponry and military tactics. Britain would think twice about trying to lord over a militarily trained populace. The HM was intratactable about what then? It opposed the ``appeasement`` of the League by the Congress and saw it shamelessly pandering to every demand of the League. Ambedkar was even more critical than the HM about this. This does not mean that the HM was right and the Congress was wrong as many people often would like to imagine. The debate ran much deeper than such superficialities. The HM if anything was an inspiration to the firebrands such as Bhagat Singh - a great admirer of Savarkar - and Netaji. How many people know that Netaji and Savarkar shared a platform before the latter left the Congress? While the League had painted a scary scenario of a Hindustan where Muslims would live as second-class citizens under Hindu jackboots; much of these fear was allayed during the deliberations of the Constituent Assembly. So when Independence finally dawned in mid-August 1947 on the Indian sub--continent, India was well on its way to becoming a vibrant pluralistic, multicultural and inclusive democracy and republic. Pakistan on the other hand was well on its way on the road to instability, parochialism, sectarianism, thuggery and criminality. Jinnah as the archpriest of the new dispensation declared himself chairman of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly (a farcical body if there was one) He was busy ticking off Suhrawardy and Fazlul Haq and any leader of consequence within the League (being a usurper himself!). No wonder the marked contrast in the Indiependence celebrations in Pakistan vis-a-vis India. While in India it had been a mass-movement and an instrument of social change; in Pakistan it was the culmination of the efforts of the landed-gentry in alliance with shallow thrid-rate intellectuals like Jinnah to subvert popular will and install themselves in power. Karachi was mostly empty on August 14th, 1947; the crowds listless. India`s people were celebrating the occasion as Bharatiar had prophesised 50 years before, ``Aaduvome, pallupaaduvome, aananda sudandirattai adainduvittome!`` ``We will dance and sing together; for we are joyously free today!``

``when you are in your grave all alone and Munkir and Nakir come to question you....````(Asif Naqshbandi)

iss saadgi pe kaun nu mur jai ai khoda ... sorry to bother you -- Asif miaN -- forget it.

re asif n and India`s Muslims

Dude, there you go again with the nonsense of a pan-Islamic state. First there is the veiled hippocricy of asking for khilafa while enjoying the freedoms of a civilized state. Why don`t you go and suffer for the establishment of this ummah-state in some ummah-land?

Second, don`t act all cocky and worry about the state of our imaan; you take care of yours, nasah and the rest will take care of theirs. I assure you on my boyscout`s honor that you will not be punished by the Almighty for our shortcomings.

Third, it seems what makes you so mad about India`s Muslims is that they`re largely very patriotic, often successful despite discrimination, and rather dismissive about the ummah nonsense, and would rather be discriminated as Indians than treated as `miskeen` by the Arabs. India`s Muslims are Indians first and last as they ought to be. They have shed blood to free India, took arms for India in every one of her wars, provided bold leadership in all segments of India`s public life, represented India with pride in international fora(Just like Indians of other faiths). And if someday all of the so-called ummah ganged up on India, I sure hope that India`s Muslims, as their faith enjoins them to, will have no compunction standing up to the enemy. It is quite a display of ignorance (or arrogance) for you in England to patronizing Muslims in the land of Nizamuddin (R) and Chisti (R).

re: fawad

{you indians muslims come in 2 types : apologists for the current order (such as you ) and self-hatining to boot like your buddy kalam ..........}

...what makes kalam ``self-hating``?...because he doesn`t subscribe to the narrow-minded and bigotted views that asif naqshabandi types hold?...because he`s not obsessed with religion?...or because he`s made religion a private matter?...

Asif N. #20 As Shakespeare said ``O what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive``. Your post is that tangled web, and all the more so since I think you are trying to deceive yourself as well.

Specifically: You start by saying you want and Islamic state through non-violent means, and end by praying for a messiah who WILL (your emphasis) unite muslims. I realize you can bend and twist and try to reconcile these essentially contradictory statements, but that will make your web even more tangled.

The rest of your post also belies your claim that you are a peaceloving man. The solution to every problem that you present, is a violent one. Who do you think you are kidding?

Finally, I told you before to stop hiding from the Quran by presenting the Shariah (which is the mullah`s tool for replacing the peaceful message of the Quran with his violent, self-serving ways) as the basis for Islam. But I see you have the audacity to continue your mischievous ways.

Reply RSaxena # 26

“...what makes kalam ``self-hating``?...”

Nahin tho apne baal aise kyun rakhtha hai, haiN? Clearly masochistic.

Reply Sigalph235 # 25

As always, except when you go all soft eyed about the Republicans, I am in AWE.

Reply Asif # 20

“…freedom of speech is something allowed in an Islamic state too before you start lying again.”

Let me grab a pencil….WHICH ONE????? And would this freedom of speech extend beyond saying nice stuff about Apple Pie to...oh, let`s say writing Satanic Verses, insulting the Prophet and prosyletising for Christianity and the Reverend Moon? How free is free?

“AS for wanting ``mullah rule`` you are wrong. I want Shari`ah rule in Pakistan and other countries with Muslim majorities and the ulama should only play a guiding role to ensure that no edicts are passed which are against the Shar`iah. THe ulamah should not have a direct role in politics.”

Deciding which laws are passed and which are not is a VERY political role to play. And unless we get some supernatural beings to be the ulema, impossible for men (and women? probably not, no?) not to be political while in a position of such temporal power.

“Is wanting the Muslim nations to be truly independent, developed, united and powerful a crime?”

Of course not. But if you are sincere about your hope, then perhaps you should examine Muslim social and political history without your preconceptions so fully in force. Because attitudes like yours, though very well meaning, have NOT resulted in independent, developed, united and powerful Muslim nations – in fact quite the opposite. Why is that?

“Only to the enemies of Islam like yourself it seems...”

Yaar, not everybody who disagrees with you is an enemy of Islam.

“In the meanwhile I believe like Fawad said that we should occupy ourselves with prayer and worship and being good Muslims, practising the Sunnah until Allah in His Mercy decideds to appoint a leader from amongst us who WILL unite us.”

God gave each of us intellect and conscience and volition. And with them responsibility for what we do or don’t do.

Regards

if kalam is a proud muslim then michael jackson is a proud black man and please dont give me the standard he aint a fundo line

Reply fawad79 # 16

“nasah forgive me im going to indulge in a crass poltical generalization : you indians muslims come in 2 types : apologists for the current order (such as you ) and self-hatining to boot like your buddy kalam ..........and fanatics................you prove my point with your every post “

think outside the box yaar. Pmishra2’s post to you is worth rereading.

Reply Romair # 11

“1. Has anyone responsible for the earlier Ayodhya killings, and the recent Gujrat killings been prosecuted? Indian courts seem to be quite free. Why aren`t they prosecuting the guilty parties?”

Clearly the courts are not THAT free. Sad to say. Some people WERE taken to court re: Ayodhya – but the case was dismissed, I think. Some people HAVE been charged for the killings in Gujarat. We’ll see what happens.

“2. Are there any moderate religious parties in India?”

Moderation lies in the eye of the beholder, no? One of the fallouts of Partition is that moderate people in India have generally not been attracted to religious parties - for this reason religious parties have been formed in response to immoderate people.

“Or is the only counter to the BJP a secular Congress, or secular provincial parties?”

Also CPI and CPIM, but basically yes. And the Telegu Desam is not looking all that crash hot right now.

“If Indians can vote out the BJP completely, then Indian society will have progressed by leaps and bounds. If the BJP is not voted out of power and out of opposition, then Indian Muslims specifically, and India as a whole, are in big trouble. It will indicate that the BJP is not an extremist party, since it is not on the extremes. It is a mainstream party, and not a passing phenomenon.”

True, but I think it’s unlikely that this will happen in one election – more likely to see the party reduce, and then fizzle over some years. (I hope.)

“In such a case, I think the only party that could counter the BJP would be a large moderate, but religious Hindu party.”

That is a VERY interesting point of view, and one which I have not heard articulated before.

IMO to some extent Congress (and most “secular” parties) cater to religious sentiments (all the while repeating secularaami, secularasi, secularati....erhaps something more overt would be more effective.

“I don`t think secular parties will then be able to take on the BJP, since the BJP`s whole strategy is to point out that secular parties have catered too much to the Muslim community.”

You seem to assume that they indeed have.

“What happens if the BJP forms the oppostion after the next election?”

Depends how many seats they win. I suspect that they will be disruptive, and street politics will be taken up.

“5. Also, why do Indians seem so surprised at what the BJP has done?”

They didn’t do it for ten years. Also, they DIDN’T say that they would kill Muslims. Actually they have been quite careful to let that sort of thing be HINTED (not said) by other members of the Sangh Parivar.

“6. Finally, even more important than the BJP, is the social condition of the Indian Muslims. I had one Indian describe this to me as a ticking time bomb. I would appreciate an objective reply from any Indian explaining whether the Indian Muslims are so far behind the Indian Hindus, that they have completely missed the bus, or not.”

IMs are probably on par (on an average) with some other non-Muslim groups in India – there are marked differences in social condition among different Hindu groups in India as well. That said, the perception of continued injustice based on religion will be very damaging if it continues.

“And if this economic and educational gap is going to continue to increase, with the Hindus making progress, and the Muslims remaining stagnant or going backwards, then how does India plan to handle this, ``ticking time bomb,`` in the next decades? Specially when a party like the BJP is in power, which probably doesn`t seem to mind a backwards Muslim population.”

The country as a whole cannot progress without empowering more of its disadvantaged groups – which include many Muslim groups, but also others.

“7. And final question: it seems like the BJP is being defeated in the provincial elections everywhere. Is this because Indians are fed up with BJP`s extremist policies, or is it because the BJP hasn`t been an economic success, i.e. if the BJP had been able to be corruption-free and had continued high economic growth, would the mostly Hindu population of the provinces ignored BJP`s anti-Muslim policies and voted for it?”

As we have seen not so far from home, a polity cannot be antediluvian in one area and progressive in another. World views are not so easily compartmentalised, nor are most interest groups so one dimensional. The two aspects you mention are not unrelated.

fawad #17

{you indians muslims come in 2 types : apologists for the current order (such as you ) and self-hatining to boot like your buddy kalam..........and fanatics}

I have noticed that Pakistanis, especially of the Islamist persuasion, find the phenomenon of APJ Abdul Kalam extremely difficult to digest. Oddly, so do some of the Indian Muslim old guard, such as Rafiq Zakaria. I would have expected better of you based on what appeared to be a refreshingly open mind.

`Self-hating` is the last adjective that could be applied to Abdul Kalam. Kalam appears to be extremely well-adjusted, has moved easily and worked well with people from all over India, retains into his seventies the energy to put in eighteen-hour days. He shows all the signs of being an supremely happy man, utterly free of neurosis, with his personal dreams successfully pursued; quite apart from all the laurels and honours and external recognition he has garnered. No self-hating person could function over four decades as Kalam has without his inner conflicts extracting a severe and crippling toll.

I surmise that what really disturbs you about Kalam is his failure to conform to a specific stereotype of what the - mythical - normative Indian Muslim should be; and that you incorrectly diagnose this failure to conform as active rejection of Muslim identity and thus as `self-hatred`. Specifically, Kalam`s mother tongue is Tamil, and he doesn`t seem to know or care about Urdu. He is an aficionado of South Indian classical music. He does not pretend to `elevated` Arab or Persian or Turkoman ancestry. In short, he displays no vestige of a `Persianised` background. In this he is quite similar to the majority of South Indians, but diverges from most North Indian Muslims and many North Indian non-Muslims. And finally, he is not demonstrative about Islam, and does not appear to regard Islam as the primary marker of his identity. This last is likely to be particularly offensive to many Pakistanis.

Fawad, let me add that I may be quite wrong in your particular case, and if so I apologise. But I have good reason to believe that the attributes that I`ve listed above bother those Pakistanis who choose to refer at Kalam as a `Muslim`, in sneering inverted commas. As a necessary corrective for such people, and for your suggested dichotomous classificationI of Indian Muslims, I suggest the following superb article, by Saeed Naqvi - a distinguished Indian journalist, this time from a Persianised background:

``Islam`s many children``

A salam to Kalam for demolishing the stereotype.

http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=4677

i could care less whether kalam practices islam or nor that is hardly the point i dont practice how can i expect him too? second as for foreign middle eastern ancestry no problem there i am proud of my hindu -indian ancestry ............as for his whole bhagavid gita thing fine ive read it too great book this is what gets me: the guy is a memeber of the bjp with an obvious hinduvta ideology he stresses hindu identity not an INDIAN identity...............hes ascension to the position of president was too timely ........he didnt say a damn thing about the gujrat massacre ............hes a token muslim.........a house n---- if you get what i mean ,,,,,,,,,hes in a public position this is what the bjp wants : a hinduized muslim they are promoting and for all your side stepping the issue by calling me islamist and other bs does not change the fact that this guy believes in hinduvta .................

to all you who think my opposition to kalam is based on islamism please wake up

rsax

you stated that kalam is broad minded man ......ok fine i submit that so am in the sense that ......i am not opposed to hinduism and i admire it but so what does it make me a hindu ? NO ,,,,,,,kalam clearly espouses a hinduvta ideology and is the hatchet man for a right wing religuous party

zafar

why dont you re read my responses and please think outside the nonfundamentalist vs fundamentalist indian muslim divide that most of you have trapped urselfs into im not comparing a shabbani azmi to a imam of new delhi hardly the case

pm

the success of the muslim in india lies in chauvinism and patriotic jingoism huh? sad after countless years they have to PROVE themselves to you ? instead of having the pakistani-living in india -guilty until proven innocent mentality or basically you have to be a good hinduvta follower like kalam to be a good indian make it possible for the hindu right to understand that being a patriotic indian is not inconsistent with being a muslim the practicing or nonpracting kind and i challenge any of you to point out where i say kalam has to be a persianized north indian urdu wallah hardly let him be proud of hindu roots let him read the bhagavad gita but for u to exploit his muslim origin and yes i mean origin like the BJP does is disingenuous

and i dont know how you people justify a hatchetman for the BJP i dont care who he is muslim or not this guy is like doctor qadir both guys are too jingoistic and they promote hatred one indirectly the other directly i admit qadir is no role model...............

aleph null another thing i dont want to appear to be open minded , i know i am not close minded ...... i espouse my views based on my values i dont seek to be a cheer leader for south asianism or a pakistani humanist ...........one thing i find totally offensive are these posts accusing me of islamism it seems if you support muslims on this board in any way no matter who you are automatically labeled a biggot , narrow minded , fundamentalist , terrorist , or subscribing to an ideology that is essentiality that of asif naqshabadi ............like rsaxena implied i was a closet fundamentalist i thought you aleph null and rsaxena thought outside this fundamentalist vs fundamentalist box it appears you guys have to do some re-thinking about your views of pakistanis and islam .............i respectfully look forward to your responses

asif piece advice dont talk about islam on this board in the traditinal sense people will call you fanatic i learned that although i could care less about traditional islam sunnah and hadith i dont subscribe to your view of life but what i resent is the hypocracy of being liberal on this board .................keep in mind asif the knife cuts both ways ...........if being liberal and progressive is ok for some people it is not for others ...............i resent the fact that you cannot express your views without being labeled i resent the fact that a sort of monolithic cultural fascism is prevalent on this board :traditional islam bad modernist hindu -type muslim good....ummah( a concept i dont believe in the political sense at all) bad nationalism good .............essentially i am a civil libertarian i think people as diverse and seemingly socially incompatable as imams and flaming homosexuals should learn to live and respect one another liberals should respect traditional muslims who dont impose their beliefs and vice versa i can talk with a mullah on hadith and i chill some gay people so what u know i respect them as humans? but then again i sense a certain condenscension and disrespect of islam on this board and i want to show it for what is : left wing BS ......................

last post :

i have to admit asif zafar has very valid points ............although i originally sensed from his anti-pakistani posts otherwise his opposition to traditianl islam was a typical indian muslim over reaction i am wrong ............zafar is right an islamic state in your understanding is divisive and cannot ensure civil liberties it cannot ensure progress u need a secular state... life is about competition u cant legislate islam .......the majority arent interested in islamic states maybe one day when they are you and the other traditionalists will succeed but in the current world order islam and politics is a rx for failure admit it ..............trust me i am no enemy of islam i give mad props to truly kind peaceful religuous brothers u have something i dont iman but u cant fault my lack of iman or be concerned about it ............trust me u r angry i am angry too when i get jokes like ``hey are you al-qaida `` it makes want to punch the person who said it .......or hey ``where is ur beard and 4 wives and your turban`` and then from people on this board who all to rush to denigrate islam while the arjuns and jay write hateful hindu fundamentalist propaganda without ANY visible criticism shankar being the exception .............

Mr./Ms. Ravishankar,

Thank you for an excellent article. Very concise and analytical. I appreciated the historical contextualisation.

Would you comment on the recent emergence of a middle class Hindu right in the US which also seems to support extremist ideologies? The South Asian American community is organizing against various venues in which extremist speakers are being invited to lecture. In addition, this rightwing community are often involved in vocal opposition to artists who present and critique the role of the BJP and communalism in India, so much so, that progressive South Asian groups in the US have become vigilant in observing and responding to them.

Hope to read more from you soon!

alephnull i read the article nothing brilliant or sriking the muslim is a creature of his locale and upbringing ok so u stated the obvious what does that have to do with his right wing

sigalph,

I am happy when my Muslim brothers in India are doing well. It pleases me.

My concern--and the raison d`etre of my posts is that in light of the recent massacres of Muslims in India by the Hindus, what should they do to protect themselves? It is my contention that only uniting under the Islamic banner can protect them.

you don`t seem to be too bothered about the recent massacres in Gujarat. Well at least that is what your posts indicate.

* * * *

As for Mr. Kalam I am happy for him but I think you have to become a ``Hindu-ized Muslim`` like him for the Hindus to like you; if he is willing to do so that is his affair but dont expect all Muslims or even the majority to agree to do so.

* *

I think if this continues the HR will be the cause of India splitting at the seams.

* * *

Zafar al Talib

where did you get all this monumental patience to suffer fools so cheerfully.

for me -- if all that famous British education -- comes to produce a line like this --

``when you are in your grave all alone and Munkir and Nakir come to question you....````

it`s time to say -- I give up.

Sigalph -- my friend -- you`re a RR (Rolls Royce)of a man -- despite being a RR (Republicam Right):-

fawad #38

You write:

[quote]

the success of the muslim in india lies in chauvinism and patriotic jingoism huh? sad after countless years they have to PROVE themselves to you ?

[end-quote]

Hmmmm... Maybe I missed something here. Is identifying with the indian state and its ideals ``chauvinism``?? In that case, I am afraid I am a complete chauvinist of the highest order!

Respect of and identification with indian constitution and its symbols is ``patriotic jingoism``?? Sorry, I have to disagree with you completely.

I agree nationalism is misused in many ways but your language suggests that nationalism itself is a flawed concept for you. If so, please say so without implying that I am suggesting a special ``loyalty test`` for indian muslims.

August 7, 2002

Lessons From Sri Lanka

Differences of Palestenian with TAMIL TIGERS

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

COLOMBO, Sri Lanka - It`s often forgotten that while suicide bombing started

in the Middle East, the people who perfected suicide as a weapon of war were

the Tamil Tigers militia here in Sri Lanka, the island-state off the southern

tip of India. In the last decade, Tamil suicide bombers, many of them women,

killed some 1,500 people, including an Indian prime minister and a Sri Lankan

president. And in a bizarre twist, the Tigers filmed many of their suicide

bombings to show and motivate their troops.

But since last December a cease-fire between the Tigers - who have been

militating for a separate state for Sri Lanka`s Tamil Hindu minority in the

northeast - and the government, which is dominated by the Buddhist Sinhalese

majority, has halted all suicide bombings. No one can be sure it will last,

after 18 years of civil war. But it`s still worth examining how suicide was

defused here, and whether any of this might apply to Palestinians and

Israelis.

To begin with, one of the key factors in halting Tamil suicide bombings was

the Tamil diaspora, living in North America, Europe and India. This Tamil

diaspora had been the main source of funding for the Tamil Tigers. But the

Tamil diaspora is made up largely of middle-class merchants and

professionals, and when in the late 1990`s the U.S., Britain and India all

declared the Tigers a ``terrorist`` group, not freedom fighters, the Tamil

diaspora became embarrassed by them and started choking off their funds.

``The Tamil diaspora started out as a force encouraging Tamil radicalism, but

eventually it evolved into a source for moderation,`` said Suresh

Premachandran, head of a Tamil rights party in Sri Lanka. ``Sept. 11 changed

that even more. People here knew after that there would never be any sympathy

for any suicide bombers.``

Unfortunately, in the Middle East Arabs and Muslims continue to indulge,

justify, praise or provide religious legitimation for Palestinian suicide

bombers, even after 9/11. The Palestinians have convinced themselves, with

the help of many Arabs and Europeans, that their grievance is so special, so

enormous that it isn`t bound by any limits of civilized behavior, and

therefore they are entitled to do whatever they want to Israelis. And

Israelis have convinced themselves that they are entitled to do virtually

anything to stop it.

Second, Sri Lankans had to pay retail for their extremism. They had no oil or

foreign powers to finance their war. And because so much domestic savings was

diverted to the war, Sri Lanka`s roads and infrastructure today are decrepit.

It is not surprising, therefore, that the peace movement, which blossomed in

the last two years, was led by the business community - particularly after

the Tamil Tigers blew up Colombo`s airport in July 2001 and sent the country

into an economic tailspin.

``The business community finally said, `Enough is enough,` `` said Mahesh

Amalean, chairman of MAS Holdings, Sri Lanka`s leading apparel maker. ``That

turned the tide. Our motto became `Sri Lanka first.` ``

Israelis and Palestinians, by contrast, got to buy their extremism wholesale.

Palestinians could engage in suicide bombings without becoming destitute

because the Arab states are always ready to pass the hat for them. Israelis

have been able to build insane settlements in the heart of the West Bank,

because the U.S. was ready to provide aid with no limits attached.

Third, in Sri Lanka the government realized it had no military solution for

suicide bombers - that the only way they could be stopped was if the Tigers

themselves could be induced to turn them off. The Tigers, meanwhile, realized

that while they could terrify the government with suicides, they couldn`t

even hold their own ethnic capital, Jaffna. So they both finally opted for

negotiations. Unfortunately, the Palestinians abandoned a peace offer and

opted instead for the delusion that suicide bombing will get them more, and

Ariel Sharon has opted for a purely military response.

Finally, while Jews and Arabs have carried out their war with all the world

watching - and often meddling in ways that prolonged the conflict - Sri

Lankans have conducted their war, in which 64,000 people have died, with

almost no coverage.

``Ours has been a forgotten war, and we`ve had to live with our mistakes and

to find our own way out,`` said Milinda Moragoda, one of the government`s

peace negotiators. ``It had its disadvantages, but also its advantages.``

-

Poor Nehru -- Father of Indian Democracy -- fathered scums like Advanis as well?

The article is about the Hindu Right and the rise of facism in India - yet Indian interlocutors, the chauvanists, the statists and the tokens collectors want to discuss only Muslims and Islam in India.

Why does this idology find such appeal among the Hindu Indians? If we could that Indians have seen a a decline in their living stadards or repated failure and that BJP types have exploited these sentiments - we may have cause for hope - that at the very least we may at least understand why this ideology appeals.

Yet, the exact opposite is the same, India has gone from success to success - so why does this ideology appeal to the Hindu?

What components speak to, resonate with, the Hindu?

I would suggest that it is exactly ``success after success``, that is a component of this appeal. Another engine driving this appeal, is the sense of inferiority, Indians and in particular Hindu Indians, value. To the warning that officers of the the ship are playing with fire, these hindus respond with ``it`s the fault of the Muslim``, the tokens rush to concur.

A review of posts by Indians, suggests, that in relation to blaming Islam and Muslims for the ills of India, introspection and the danger of facism, will have to wait. In any case, this is the choice for Indians, but not without implications for constituent groups in India and it`s neighbors; some entirely welcome, even tragic.

is kalam a Muslim? Does anyone give a rat`s behind if that escapee from ``planet of the Apes`` set, is or is not a Muslim? Oh yes, they do, above all, fanatic Hindus and their tokens. he is the good Muslim, he is a hindu-muslim. A role model for those who mouth ``pluralism``, even as they homogenize, by force of fire, if necessary.

What was article about, oh yeah, India`s Muslim problem and how the hindu may solve it.

nasah and zafar

Thank you for the kind words. You gentlemen will be pleased to know that I`ll be supporting a Democrat for governor and another for Congress this Novemeber! (The GOP governor nominee looks like Hitler and talks like an abject fool; the Democratic House nominee is good friend). Hope this admission redeems me further!

Asif # 46

I noticed you avoided all the points I made earlier and came up with a new attack about Gujarat. Everyone knows that I find India`s atrocities in Kashmir (which you`ll bring up next) and elsewhere (including Gujarat and Bombay and Punjab) heinous. But I also put it in context realizing that in India there are native mechanisms to address these issues. I`d rather live in Hindutva India ruled by a BJP, as long as there is a Constitution, Courts, and Parliament there, than in some bigoted pan-Islamic violent polity ruled by a group of self-selected selectmen of imaginary Divine lieutenantancy.

India`s `splitting`? You guys have been dreaming of India`s implosion and Israel`s explosion for two generations now. None of it is going to happen. Internally both the countries are constitutional republics with firm civil control of the military-such countries don`t disappear so easily. Externally, specially now, both those countries are considered outposts of civilization and allies in the fight against global Islamist terror. Not to mention that both are not only armed to the teeth but, far more importantly, inspired to the hilt.

Your dislike of India will garner far more respect if you can tell us how an ummah state can craft a durable pluralist society based on participation, equal rights, rule of law, and peaceful co-existence.

I find India to be quite a Big Brotherly kind of a hegemon in the region, always ready to exploit smaller neighbors and pick fights. Yet, I also realize that were India to disappear today, between Pakistan`s Islamism and China`s Communism, the smaller countries will be reduced to moral and physical wastelands.

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fawad #37

{the guy is a memeber of the bjp}

It helps to get your facts straight, and not let your preconceptions run wild. No, Kalam isn`t a member of any political party. He rose through the system, through a succession of Congress and other non-BJP governments, receiving his first national honour, a Padma Bhushan, in 1981, and the Bharat Ratna in 1997. His first substantial interaction with a BJP-led government was probably when Vajpayee offered him the cabinet post of Minister of Science and Technology in 1998.

{with an obvious hinduvta ideology}

Indeed? Care to explain how you came to this risible conclusion? Kalam has written and spoken a great deal about his personal vision. His opinions are on record in two books: his autobiography `Wings of Fire` and in `India 2020: A Vision for the Millenium`.If his ideology has a dominant current, it is self-reliance and a can-do attitude. His vision is technocratic rather than religion-obsessed and culture-fixated.You can arguably fault him for naivete or over-optimism, but the `hindutva` label is plainly ridiculous.

{he stresses hindu identity not an INDIAN identity}

This remark probably reveals more about your ideological blinkers than it does about Kalam.

{he didnt say a damn thing about the gujrat massacre}

That is his prerogative.For that matter, he probably didn`t say a damn thing about the Babri Masjid demolition, or about the dozens of Pakistan-sponsored massacres in J & K. That has never been his style.

What`s your point? That someone of Muslim background should be in the forefront in issuing public comments about all events involving Muslims? Have you considered the alternative viewpoint, that an Indian citizen, whatever his origins, should be upset, disturbed, etc. whenever a government anywhere in India fails in its obligation to any of its citizens, irrespective of their ethnic, religious, etc. background? And that, beyond that, whether and how one gives voice to ones unhappiness is a personal call? And can you conceive of the possibility that Kalam has incidentally done the most good for Indian Muslims by just being who he is?

{hes a token muslim.........a house n---- if you get what i mean}

{a hinduized muslim }

This is now evolving on sadly predictable lines.

{for all your side stepping the issue by calling me islamist and other bs}

Try to read more carefully. I didn`t call you an Islamist

{does not change the fact that this guy believes in hinduvta}

Totally unsubstantiated assertion on your part. And BTW, it is `hindutva` - the ending is `tva`, not `vta`.

fawad #40

{one thing i find totally offensive are these posts accusing me of islamism }

Do try to read more attentively. I didn`t call YOU an Islamist ... I had some other worthies - in the Pakistani press, and a few on Chowk, in mind. I don`t in fact think you`re an Islamist - but I surmise that you may have occasional problems with logic - or with English grammar - or with reading comprehension.

re: fawad

...i don`t think you know much about kalam other than what you`ve read the fanatics writing...

Ra Ravishankar,

Thanks for writing this. Good to know that with people like yourself, India has hope.

Ras

sigalph # something

uncle tom, if its ok for Indian parlimentarians to worry about the welfare of Hindu victims of cleansing in Bangaldesh, why is it wrong for Naqsbandi to worry about the Muslim rioting victims in Gujurat? or about the welfare of Indian muslims in general?? So Pan-Islamism is bad but Pan-Hinduism in the grab of secularism is fine? hypocrite!

What Hindus are doing to Indian muslims is sad and barbaric, but was forseen and predicted by the wise Muslim leadership of United India in the 30s and 40s. Part of the blame goes to Indian muslims themselves who made a bad choice when they decided to stay back in India and not migrate to Pakistan while the window was open i.e. 1947 to 1951.

The choice for them now... either continue being slaughtered, raped and economically strangulated by the Hindus or stand up and fight the fire with fire. They made a very bad choice in `47 for which they are suffering today; I hope Gujurat has opened their eyes and they`ll make a better choice today so that their children don`t have to go through the same again.

alephnull

i know one thing ....you didnt call me an islamist you certainly implied it....... now you called me a moron ....ooops i have occasional lapses of reading comp and judgement.... since i am not worthy of your intellectual calibre i will refrain from responding to your posts since you clearly have evinced a supercilious attitude id rather not respond to you id ask you to do the same

Reply Nasah # 35

“where did you get all this monumental patience”

Missionary school.

Reply Asif # 46

“My concern--and the raison d`etre of my posts is that in light of the recent massacres of Muslims in India by the Hindus, what should they do to protect themselves? It is my contention that only uniting under the Islamic banner can protect them.”

I appreciate your motivation – your concern for Indian Muslims is commendable. Going beyond the broadly theoretical, however:

What do you mean, however, by “uniting under the Islamic banner”?

How is this going to safeguard Indian Muslim lives?

Last time this happened politically was before Partition, and that resulted in the second largest loss of Muslim life on the subcontinent EVER, and we aren’t even looking at the deprivation and suffering of those who survived.

What about building bridges with decent non-Muslim Indians who also want a peaceful and prosperous country?

What about all those areas where different Muslim groups in India have different interests? If we are going to settle these issues democratically, aren’t we just reproducing a smaller version of the Indian Parliament, and to little good because in the end all the people of India have to be involved in solutions, not just Muslims, right?

Reply Dost-Mittar # 47

“The main reason for disowning Kalam is that he has refused to disown his pre-Islamic heritage.”

I would have thought that the main reason to question Kalam’s appointment is his (hypothetical?) willingness to be used as whitewash by the BJP to paint their antiminority position a more inclusive colour. That’s far more important than whether he reads the Gita or Joan Collins, no?

Reply Alephnull

“…I surmise that you may have occasional problems with logic - or with English grammar - or with reading comprehension.“

Remind me not to irritate you.

Reply arjun_m # 53

“Um..would you blame jinnah for the paki armies crimes in bangladesh?”

Why not? I blame him for the caste system, dowry deaths, UTI going down and, of course, Kalam’s haircut. (Except on Tuesdays and Thursdays when I blame Gandhi for the Taliban, honour killings in Pakistan and Lodhi’s beehive – cr RSax.)

Reply Sigalph235 # 52

“You gentlemen will be pleased to know that I`ll be supporting a Democrat for governor and another for Congress this Novemeber! (The GOP governor nominee looks like Hitler and talks like an abject fool; the Democratic House nominee is good friend). Hope this admission redeems me further!”

…speechless…all my christamases have come at once…

Reply Hobbes # 51

“The article is about the Hindu Right and the rise of facism in India - yet Indian interlocutors, the chauvanists, the statists and the tokens collectors want to discuss only Muslims and Islam in India.”

Perhaps because THE driver for the Hindu Right’s rise is how they perceive and define the role Indian Muslims play and have historically played in India, and how they market this pov.

``I`ll be supporting a Democrat for governor and another for Congress this Novemeber!.... Hope this admission redeems me further!

You`ve redeemd yourself -- sigalph miaN -- bravo!

arjun miaN:

That was a question -- for my mitter saheb -- but you may have raised a pertinent point-- should Jinnah be blamed for what happened in Bangladesh?

attention -- dost-mitter ji please -- now this should be an easy one for you.....

Zafar Al-Talib

Quite right Zafar! - The problem of India are Muslims. It Is Muslims who are the ``Driver`` - It`s all a conspiracy, the Mahabasa has no problem but this. They breed like rats, they are foreigners, invaders, not indian, loyalty tests for them, special privelages for them. After all, they are the ones who are really in power in India. Music, sweet music. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Music, baaby.

How do you think this might be resolved, what are, to your thinking, workable solutions? What ought Muslims do to not be victimized but still maintain their rights as equal citizens?

All Pakistani spies and tokens! - read carefully, let every word, every bit of imagery, envelope and transport you - you know, really FEEL it:

Business Recorder - dtd today

``RSS planned Gujarat riots well ahead

ISLAMABAD (August 09 2002) : ``People of villages and cities get ready and celebrate next Holi with the corpses of Muslims,`` says a chilly message of the Hindu extremist Party RSS in a pamphlet distributed in Indian state of Gujarat.

``There is still time for you to go to Pakistan if you want to. We do not want to leave a single Muslim alive in Gujarat.``

The timing of the pamphlets in the city was eerie. They were just in time before the occurrence of Godhra incident, wherein a train carrying Hindu pilgrims was set alight. A forensic report later disclosed that the fire started from within.

The incident led to the most gruesome incidents of mass murders and killings of more than 5000 Muslims, rape of around 1000 girls and women, destruction of 26,200 houses and loot and plunder of 21,100 shops.

Each passing day adds to the evidence that the Gujarat riots were planned months in advance.

Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi, justified the slaughter of innocent Muslim by repeatedly referring to the riots as a ``reaction`` to the Godhra incident.

However, Human Rights groups, Western Diplomats and media points out that these riots were in no way spontaneous but a pre-planned massacre.

British officials in India say the recent widespread violence in the Indian state of Gujarat was pre-planned and carried out with the support of the state government. In an internal report obtained by the BBC, British official say the violence had all the hallmarks of ethnic cleansing.

``The aim was to purge Muslims from Hindu areas,`` said a report prepared by the British official, which was leaked out to the press on April 25. 2002.

The National Human Rights Commission Interim Report mentioned that here were ``widespread reports and allegations that groups of well-organised persons, armed with mobile telephone and addresses, were singling out certain homes and properties for death and destruction in certain districts.``

Many Muslim industrialists gave non-Muslim names to their establishments so that they were not readily identified as Muslim properties but yet these establishments were targeted.

The role of the Gujarat State Government (the BJP) is more sinister than it seems, as members of Anti-Muslim Hate Organisations like, the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal and associated organisations have penetrated state institutions and organisations.

According to reports ``Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendara Modi is a pracharak (preacher) in RSS. Minister of State for Home, Zadaphia is a VHP activist. The Governor of Gujarat who could not send a report to the Centre on the happenings in Gujarat, S.S. Bhandari, is also a PBS leader.``

Police postings and transfers up to the rank of Deputy Superintendent of Police are decided upon by the local PBS leaders. PBS activists are favoured and officers who are neutral and secular are punished and transferred. Over the last 5 years as many as 12,000 VHP workers have been inducted in the state Home Guards.

These police officers have actively aided the mobs. Video footage seen by the fact-finding team showed slogan`s like, `Yeh andar ki baat hai, police hamare saath hai` (The inside story is that the police is on our side) written boldly on the walls of gutted Muslim homes.

A pattern that was often repeated was that the police would open fire at the Muslims rather than at the attacking mob. On February 26, out of the 40 persons shot dead by the police in Ahmadabad city, 36 were Muslims.

The police simply refused to lodge FIRs. Almost after two months of pressure, the Government began to register FIRs related to murder and arson at the refugee camps but refused to acknowledge -rape and sexual assault.

Not a singe FIR in Ahmadabad has been recorded by the police. No special women`s cell has been set up to register the complaints of the women traumatised by mass-rape, and narrow escape from death.

The former Congress MP, Iqbal Ehsan Jafri was burnt alive along with his family members (barring his brave wife who managed to escape the wrath of the marauders).

Police officials confirmed that Jafri had made frantic telephone calls to the Director General of police, the Police Commissioner, the Chief Secretary, the Additional Chief Secretary (Home) and others. But the city police did not intervene, The rioters broke into his house, stripped and raped his daughters and then burnt them alive along with their father.

The list of similar gruesome incidents seems unending. According to Farzana Bano in Ahmadabad she and her family were asked to leave for safety. ``People from the Hindu Housing Society told us to take shelter in their houses. There were only men in there and the women and children had been sent away for safety. They started beating us with sticks, hockey sticks and pipes. Than a big mob armed with sharp weapons, kerosene and petrol cans attacked us.

All adult males were then beaten, thrown on the ground and burnt.

The residents of the Gopinath Society segregated Muslim girls and made them stand on one side. ``They were raped as we watched, The girls screamed so loud that even now when I remember my blood boils.. The girls were then burnt.``

According to another witness, ``a mob of 5,000 came and we started running. We were cornered from all the sides. SRP (State Reserve Police) personnel were also chasing us. The mob caught hold of my husband and hit him on his head twice with the sword. They threw petrol in his eyes and then burned him. My sister-in-law was stripped and raped. She had three-month baby in her lap. They threw petrol on her and the child from her lap was thrown in the fire.

These ghastly incidents were the brainchild of the Anti-Muslim Hate Organisation RSS. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, established in 1925 based upon an ideology that closely resembles Fascism. It promotes the racial supremacy of the Aryan race and considers all other races and religions, except that of the Brahmins and upper-caste Hindus, as the enemies.

To fulfil its evil motives, the RSS beguiles th