India’s Potential Lose-Lose-Lose Scenario

Fawad #209,

There`s nobody called chandrasekhar bose. There was S. N. Bose, a Bengali who made an important discovery with Einstein. It is called Bose-Einstein statistics. Chandrasekhar was another guy, a Tamil who won the Nobel Prize in 1983 for Astrophysics (Study of the stars and heavenly bodies). Incidentally, Chandra`s uncle also won Nobel Prize in 1931. His name was C V Raman and he is the only Indian scientist to win the prize by working within India. A very smart family indeed!

krashid #204

I get angry and frustrated when people try to say things like Our Man got Nobel, because a Nobel-winning scientist is Nobody`s man, he is a Gift of Nature. It is disgusting to see somebody use the Nobel Prize for national/ religious oneupmanship. Unfortunately you started it all by mentioning Salam`s name (``We have Salam...``). So I had to reply.

Also, before we claim credit on somebody`s Nobel, we should ask ourselves how much we had helped him to get it. My point is none of Murad/ Salam/Zewail were supported by their Muslim homelands. Same is true for Chandra and Khorana; I doubt they could win Nobel Prize if they had stayed back in India. So why should we become jingoistic over their Nobel prizes?

Re: Fawad

On Ramanujam:

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/

Re: Urstruly #205

How have I been reinforcing steretypes? That is a serious charge. I expect you to provide some evidence.

SHANKAR ID LIKE A RESPONSE please:

shankar unlike romair who has ethnic connections to kashmir most pakistanis i think dont have a masada complex over kashmir indians seem more attached im saying u guys should keep kashmir .............hopefully people like romair understand that no one is gonna risk the future of their nation for kashmir anymore ..........i think even ylh has written kashmir (im not sure ) off................if most pakistanis dont care anymore what are the obstacles to negotitations ?????????

shammi

can you tell me more about the life of chandrashekar bose and the Ranjuman guy u know the number theory interesting ...............i mean this mushy is a jehadi bjp is bad is getting to be boring

Ref Romair #: 174

[No one invited you to make Kashmir an, ``atut-ang.``]

Yes. Someone named Hari Singh. He happened to be the ruler of the state and had the right to sign over the state to India. Which he did. After Pakistan violated the Standstill Agreement it had signed with Kashmir. And sent in tribesmen under the leadership of Pak Army officers who were conveniently granted ``leave``.

But then, historical accuracy is not your forte, is it?

[``Live Free or Die,`` isn`t the motto only of the State of New Hampshire. It is a Universal emotion.]

So, when will you be burning the Koran?

krashid,

{{Without going into detail, why would he. (He may not bend down on Kashmir, does not necessarily mean he will start a war)}}

Maybe youre right (I hope you dont go ballistic when I use the word ``maybe``:))

When a war starts, & millions die, the question ``who started it?`` is going to be moot.

I guess a better way of putting it is that I feel Mushy is making a big mistake when he`s taken a rigid stance ``before India-Pakistan can even consider friendly relations, the Kashmir issue has to be dealt with first!``.

I recall, (off the top of my head), when he talked to Indian editors in Agra, he said something like, ``what confidence building measures? unless the Kashmir issue is tackled FIRST, there can be NO confidence building measures``. Maybe his stand impressed Pakistanis when he left India in a huff. However, whether Indians are pro-BJP or anti-BJP, it made Indians all the more stubborn. He absolutely refused to budge on the issue of ``cross border terrorism``. To him, its NOT terrorism, its a ``freedom fight``.

Basically, that stance is ``blackmail``. In effect, what he told Indians was: ``If you dont tackle Kashmir; we will continue to wage a war of a 1000 cuts & there isnt a DAMN thing you can do about it!; if you DARE to go to a ``limited war``, Pakistan will teach you a lesson, because we know the weaknesses in Indian military tactics after Kargil...dont even DARE to go into a full scale war, because we will use nuclear weapons!``. He didnt have to say that outright; but thats the message he gave!

A year later, he was forced to swallow his pride & do EXACTLY what he refused to do in Agra..just because the US twisted his arm...at least in ``name only``. I say ``in name only`` because, after his recent independance day speech, he`s made it very clear that though his tactics have been changed, he refuses to change his goals.

My feeling is that Mushy thinks he can wear India down & force it to leave Kashmir, like the US left Vietnam & the Soviets left Afghanistan. Both the US & the Soviet Union didnt have the same psychological ``attatchment`` to Vietnam or Afghanistan, that India has to Kashmir. If any Indian PM (regardless of what party) gives in to that kind of blackmail, that party`s govt will fall.

Unless & until there is very strong international pressure (I dont mean sterile comments like India should talk to Kashmiris)...more like an oil or economic embargo, like Saddam is facing, Indians WILL NOT BUDGE. Even if they agree for ``talks``; they will tie up the talks in a stalemate & blame Pakistan...Right, wrong or indifferent, in the international diplomacy, Indian diplomats have outclassed Pakistani diplomats.

In the eyes of countries that have clout; (the US, West & even to some extent, the oil rich Arab states) the concept of ``freedom fight`` with guerella tactics is the same as ``terrorism``. ESP the US! Whether people care to admit it or not, a new world order is already in effect. The US is the defacto power that carries the most clout. The UN & AI are TOOTHLESS! Islamic countries can whine all they want about how the US is a hypocritical bully...it doesnt make a difference. After 9/11, there is a FUNDAMENTAL change in the American psyche.

Indian diplomats have capitalised on that psyche. The Indian lobby in the US is getting more & more powerful. Its nowhere near the Israeli lobby; but it is allying itself with the Israeli lobby, to bolster their clout. Pakistan shouldnt underestimate them. America may ``tilt`` a bit here & there; but America will NOT outrightly back India or Pakistan. Thats a win-win scenario for India...because then, MIGHT BECOMES RIGHT..

Which brings me back to a point I`ve been making all these months. Indo-Pak ``war`` on a battlefield will lead to a destruction of both countries. So why is India escalating?! Its ``hool``; pure & simple. A DANGEROUS hool, perhaps, but India feels it has no other alternative. Besides, look at it this way; it was that ``hool`` that made the US give Pakistan a scolding.

Whether Pakistanis believe that the terrorist attacks on the Indian Parliament & in Kashmir were staged managed Indian treachery, is immaterial. Indians believe Pakistan is behind it; either directly or indirectly.

Future Indo-Pak wars (if these two countries want to survive) is NOT going to be fought on a military battlefield. Its going to be fought on a psychological, economic & diplomatic battlefield. The main reason India is buying weapons like never before is because it doesnt want to take any crap from any Pakistani hawk.

Unfortunately, Pakistani military only thinks ``one-dimensionally``...its cause they are trained to think that way. A militaries` job is to fight wars on a battlefield NOT run a country. A soldier`s code is that he would rather die fighting...even if he`s poor & destitute, than give up his ``honor``. Mushy has said that in an interview...he`s taking Pakistan down that road. Maybe, domestically, he`s the best leader Pakistan has. But as long as he has this kind of hawkish attitude vis a vis India, Pakistan will take one step forward & two steps backward.

Romair #174:

Why oh why do Pakis like you insist on asking the same questions, despite so many interactions earlier. Anyway, let me try again. We dont care for a plebiscite in J&K. We dont care if some or many people in the valley do not want to be a part of India. If they want out, they can personally move out. It is hardly fifty-five years since India has been a political union, after centuries of foreign rule. We are not going to have the fate of a billion and more Indians spoilt by a few million in the valley or a few million anywhere else. As I said earlier, if they want out, they can get out. But we surely are not parcelling out bits and pieces of land every time a couple of million people decide to secede. Love for our nation demands that we resist all attempts at secession, even if force is required.

If you care so much for Kashmiris, tell your Paki govt to get out of Pak occupied Kashmir and stop sending jihadis across to our side.

Shammi # 200

``I am no expert on nor apologist for Naipaul.``

However, you have no problem perpetuating and reinforcing Naipauls` venomous stereotypes about Muslims among your own people, hunh?

cpothik @179

You agree and I agree that Nobel Prize is no criteria for scientific achievement.

The institutions west has created are created over centuries. In fact most the research work in USA is done by foreigners (when get green card and Nationality to be called USA citizen).

I fail to understand the point you are trying to make and why are you so angry.

MT #

If I have time I will definitely find more names.

Murad, was Iranian descent, who shared it with Fergchott (Fergchott was from the University I trained). Three people shared Nobel Priza in Medicine. I think it was 1998.

I am talking about middle Eastern descent who may be living in Europe or America.

Shankar #192

I disagree with the point that Musharraf will start a war.

Without going into detail, why would he. (He may not bend down on Kashmir, does not necessarily mean he will start a war)

The war may become a necessity for BJP, if there is chance for them losing election. 1/3 rd of Indian forces are in kashmir and rest are on Pakistan border.

Facts speak for themselves.

Shammi #194

Why don`t you present the other picture.

On India`s independence day.

Vajpayi and Abul Kalam both reiterated that Kashmir is integral part of India.

With an active struggle going on, with more than 70,000 people killed, with 700,000 strong Indian forces to keep calm in the region.

These kind of jugglery can only increase vote bank in Gujrat and Rajhastan, at the expense of alienatiing Kashmiris.

But which Indian gives a damn about Kashmiris.

India is interested in Kashmir and not Kashmiris.

Urstruly:

I am no expert on nor apologist for Naipaul. So, asking me to explain/interpret his writing is barking the wrong tree.

In so far as `explaining the ongoing genocide in India`, there can be no `explanation` only condemnation.

{{PS: I have raised my admiration-notch for you a few more pegs.}}

When someone like 786786 says this, I think Romair will be actively courted by the mullahs. Oh well, seems like Pakistani soldier boys, as they get older, generally become jehadis. He`d make one hell of a spokesman for a this-e-that though!:)