India’s Potential Lose-Lose-Lose Scenario

Rsaxena:

you are right. Let us talk number theory again. Alephnull? Pankaj? anyone there?

Shammi & Sigalph235

Thanks for your lists - which were expected as a response. But please also tell me how those lists are supposed to prove Naipaul`s thesis right or wrong. Also how do you explain the on going genocides in India and how it is differnt from the lists that you have provided.

re: shammi, shankar, concerned, et al

...after more than a year at chowk, i thought you all would`ve known better than to try reasoning with this romair fellow on kashmir...his typical dreamy, selective, hypocritical bull$hit couched in religion-based poison is soooo old...

...you are better off trying to teach your dogs quantum mechanics...

Dost-mittar # 189

Regd. Kerala Christians etc.

I must add the irony here - it is a fact that the Christians in Kerala for the most part trace the origin of their religion to the Areas of Middle East that used to be called Assyria , parts of Persia, Turkey and Iraq - Antioch, Mosul , Diyarbakir etc to be precise. But they have localised to such an extent that when a Patriarch of the Syrian Christians was asked by the Australians about the status of his community in India - he said we are sons of the soil , We are more Hindu than the Hindus themselves. There are people who trace their ancestors to Canaan and call themselves Kanayas but every single one is proud of his Malayali heritage.

The patron saint of one such community is Saint Abdul Jaleel mar Grigorios. Rituals are sometimes conducted in Syriac or Greek laced Latin , but inevitably the language of expresssion is Malayalam.

Kerala is a curious mix indeed of liberal Hindu kings who welcomed immigrants with tax free lands to build settlements , churches, synagogues and mosques and the localisation of foreign philosophies and ideals.

Re: Shankar

``...Thats one of the reasons I feel Mushy is, sooner or later, going to start an Indo-Pak war...``

Read this -- from the Washington Post:

Musharraf brought the threat of war in South Asia back into focus last week by delivering a saber-rattling speech on Pakistan`s Aug. 14 celebration of its 55th year of independence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28823-2002Aug16.html

Much as I admire several Pakistani Chowk posters, I feel that the man who has annointed himself as their President will ignite a war. Indian politicians will be only too happy to oblige.

Re: sigalph235 to Urstruly

Sigalph, you could have also added the following:

7. Sudanese civil war

8. Algerian civil war

9. Iraqi occupation of Kuwait

concerned,

When a person is provoked enough to spout off; all his base feelings of anger come out. When one gets angry, quite often, the true feelings of a human being come out...without being couched by niceties.

You see, though a generally very civil interactor, Romair has a very deep seated animosity towards Indians re Kashmir. I respect his right to his views. I also personally feel India`s behavior in Kashmir has been reprehensible. But that doesnt mean I agree with the way he is fighting that ``oppression``. Two wrongs dont make a right.

The fact he is a Kashmiri muslim AND a Pakistani citizen is no secret. I vaguely recall, in previous years, he has stated he actively participates in some form in the Kashmir liberation movement. That is perhaps a more important & emotional issue for him than any other issue in Indo-Pakistani politics.

If the AHPC wants to wrest independance by guerella tactics, they wont succeed, like the PLO is NOT succeeding in Israel. Sigalph is right. Comparing what happened in Bangladesh to Kashmir is like comparing apples to oranges. Shaheeds & martyrs may give out a divine sweet smell as their souls wafts away to Heaven. But the rest of the non-Islamic world, their corpses stink to high heaven.

If AHPC has the attitude :``why the hell should we participate in an Indian election, cos we are not Indians in the first place?!``, they are just shooting themselves in the foot. Even if the election is rigged & they lose...they can continue to agitate & demonstrate peacefully...as long as they dont resort to violence. Only then do they have a chance to prevail.

Regardless of what guys like Romair or even Musharraf thinks of Indians; doesnt matter ONE BIT to Indians. Whether they like it or not, whether they think they are right or not, Indians have a very strong emotional, cultural & religious attatchment to Kashmir. As long as they fight with violence,India will REFUSE to budge. They & their Pakistani mentors can take a hike.

Thats one of the reasons I feel Mushy is, sooner or later, going to start an Indo-Pak war & THIS time; millions will die. Indians maybe evil personified to him; he`s got to realise Indians dont CARE what he & his cohorts think of them. He should have taken stock of the collective psyche of how LIVID Indians got after Kargil. Unfortunately, he thinks ``one-dimensionally`` because he`s trained as a soldier. The lessons he took from Kargil were ``what kind of tactical flaws does the Indian army have?; how should Pakistan change her tactics, the NEXT time?``.

Who are we kidding? Of all the dictators in Pakistan, Mushy has been the most hawkish..

What he doesnt realise is that Indians have the same Masada complex when it comes to Kashmir...over their dead bodies. Now who is the final moral arbitrator? I guess only God is..

Re: shankar on Romair

You are correct in diagnosing Romair`s prejudices that now stand exposed like never before. The achilles heel of his argument are the numerous careless attributions to groups of any excesses. (e.g. ` `Indians killed the Muslims in Gujrat` -- our man does not even realize the obvious unstated and unsavory presumption: that Muslims are not Indians according to this worldview, and that the wounds of Gujarat have pained many Indians, not all who are Muslim). He also fails to register that `self-determination` is being sold over the ethnic cleansing of the Valley`s minorities. Yes, self-determination is vital, but so it the need to take care of others who are too weak to fend for themselves. Even the Muslim League, Indian National Congress, Awami League proved their majority in the most trying of circumstances (and the elections were always organized by an `occupier`).

Another thing to think about: The Awami League (and the PLO) made a conscious effort to bring the minorities in their country along with them. The unelected APHC does not even have a token presence of a Sikh, Pandit or a Ladakhi Buddhist. That pretty much speaks about their Kashmiriyat or representative nature.

Re: MT on Naghuib Mahfouz`s Nobel Prize

You would be heartbroken to hear that Mahfouz (at the ripe old age of 80) was stabbed in the neck by a member of the Egyptian Islamic Brotherhood, and was paralyzed in one side of his body. I think that he fled from Egypt to Europe shortly thereafter.

Shankar on Romair #174 outburst:

Good luck!

``...The occupied are now fighting back militantly and by denouncing all elections...``

They? I wonder why Colin Powell, GW Bush, Kofi Annan, Jack Straw, EU insist on the fact `infiltration must stop`, and why Musharraf (no special talent for organizing fair elections himself) has to give a speech on national TV to his own captive audience by stating that `nothing is going on the LoC`? May I remind you of the Mori poll, and the recent India-Today MARG poll that shows that 74% of the Valley Kashmiris want the APHC to contest?

Shankar, good luck!

re cpothik 184

``We knew that Charity begins at home. For the Pakistanis it begins st Kashmir!!``

Apprently it ends there too.

Romair:

``Haath hai Allah kaa, bunda e momin kaa haath

Ghalib O kaar aafreen, kaar gaha o kaar saaz``

Allama Iqbal

Kyaa baat hai, kyaa baat hai,kyaa baat hai vallah.

Ju r`aat

Abhee zanjeer chhanaktee hai pas e pardaa e saaz

mutlaqul hukm hai, sheeraaza e asbaab abhee

saghar e naab mein aansoo bhee dhalak jaatey hain

laghzish e paa mein hai paa bandi e aadab abhee

upnay deevanon ko deevaanaa tO bunn lainay dO

upnay mustaanon ko mustaanaa tO bunn lainay dO

juld yeh sutvat e usbaab bhee mitt jaegee

khaah zanjeer khanaktee hee, khanaktee hee rahay.

Faiz

Aljazair sey jo ikk shola e javvala uthha

hotay hotay vohee Kashmir tuk aa ponchaa hai

hindio mard e mujahid sey naa uljhho, dekho

tumm mein eeman kee taquat hai,naa lurr mrnay kee

Haath mazloom kaa Shamsheer tuk aa ponchaa hai.

__________________________________________________

On your Ghalib post I just wanted to point out if you meant /duurd where your wrote /dard . The latter meaning pain does not make sense with /tahay jaam . For Duurd please call!

PS: I have raised my admiration-notch for you a few more pegs.

romair`s #174

spoken like a true mujahid...

conspicuous by its absence is any reference to the findings of the MORI (Market & Opinion Research International) poll...not surprising since that doesn`t gel with the great mujahid`s theories.

`since the poll favours the indian position, it must have been manipulated` says brig rashid quereshi according to wall street journal. surely lord avebury was bribed by the indians to switch his loyalties.

#145

Sadna:

``Hamid Haroon said how can you talk of your own rights in Pakistan if you donot support the Kashmir stance of Musharraf and the Pakistani government which represents not only Pakistanis but also Kashmiris.``

HAHAHAHAHAHAWHAWHAWHAW!!!!!!!!.......

We knew that Charity begins at home. For the Pakistanis it begins st Kashmir!!

krashid #175

Here is the link to Nobel laureates by nationality , you can figure this out.

http://www.nobel.se/search/nationalities.html

The only Middle Easterner who won a prize for Science was the Egyptian who won it for chemistry in 1999.

The following is a list of female Nobel laureates

http://www.nobel.se/search/women.html

krashid #175

You may be hardpressed to find more Middle-Eastern Nobel price winners than the ones you found out.

There has been just one in literature and that was Naghuib Mahfouz .

Sigalph`s point is that Middle Eastern universities do not shine as beacons of higher learning or research into ideas that might seek the betterment of human life and understanding of our environment , (unless we count the countless schools the Saudis have conveniently spawned in other countries that are exclusively religious in nature).

Admittedly the prizes are given away to what is perceived in the collective estimation of the Royal academy as the best effort towards understanding or solving problems.

The academy and the intelligentsia may even have got the problem wrong.

Regarding the Peace prize it is anybody`s guess it is used as a political tool. And it has become a political choice only because we have megalomanicas who seem to be willing to tailor their actions to meet the Prize guidelines.

Romair,

#174

I was very tempted to argue with your post, but youre right; its going to be a waste of time. I sense hurt, anger & worst of all, prejudice in your post.

Yes yes, Indians have heard a zillion times,by Pakistanis how brutal, hypocritical & unfeeling we are when it comes to the plight of Kashmiri muslims. It doesnt matter...I wont even try & tell you the extent of antipathy Indians have towards the GoP`s policy. So its a moral deadlock, only God will decide.

So when someone like you wants to throw stones at India, you will get stones thrown back. If you get your feelings hurt; dont live in a glasshouse. Live in that cocoon of Polyannish optimism, inside that glasshouse, & build it on a very high moral pedestal.

Just remember this, maybe I`m cynical...Allah refuses to intervene in the Holy Land or Kashmir. You see, when Palestinian or Kashmiri muslims comit senseless acts of violence, they insult Allah JUST as much as the evil Israelis & Hindians. Without Divine intervention; if 2 parties are deadlocked MIGHT BECOMES RIGHT.

When people kill innocent people, whatever moral ascendancy their cause has comes crumbling down into dust. Its too bad these ``oppressed`` people dont listen to Gandhi, or emulate his tactics. When a weaker party renounces violence & continues its FIGHT with non violent satyagraha RIGHT BECOMES MIGHT. Y`see, ``oppressors`` DONT ever listen to Gandhi...thats why they oppress.

Guys like MLKing, Sakharov,Tutu, Solzenitsyn...even were GREAT fighters against oppression. They ALL prevailed in the end because they never fought with violence. So let the PLO, Hamas, AHPC & Al-Qeeda fight oppression with violence. No matter how noble they think their cause is; it makes their oppressors BELIEVE that they are right to fight terrorism. All these fanatical groups also believe that the Israelis & Americans & the West are the world`s biggest terrorists.