Piece of What?

GANG RAPE AND RULE OF LAW,

The day 4 men were convicted and sentenced to death was the darkest day in pak legal history. The hoodood ordinance was thrown to the winds, the man were taken to the terrorism court. It is well known that in all islamic countries it is the women who get punished for rape. In thsi specific case, even the men who allegedly sat in the village court have been sentenced to deathe. The self styled objective reporters of omar quraishis ilk have nothing to say about this darkest day of pak legal syste. I do hope that as it is the case in pakistan, these sentences are never executed.
The last deaths entence in pakistan was of the man senteced for killi9ng the iranian diplomats, that was after ten years and several p[rotests from iran.

Every thinking person of pakistan should condemn the deathsentence on the rape convicted.

re:#10 by ferozk
AR criticised India when she sided with America post Sept-11 with an urgency that baffled even Unlce Sam. She described India as ``furiously gyating her hips to draw the attention of United States!``.
Such imagery is the hallmark of a good writer, i think. It immediately conjures up a picture in our mind that we can all relate to. Like, when Churchill talked about an Iron Curtain falling between the 2 big powers.
AR seems to have lived her life to the fullest extent, made friends and enemies and sees politicians for what they are, a class of self-serving bigots. Most people in India realise this but we have not find ways of conducting official business without them. It remains to be seen if AR`s visit has any effect on Paki youth. Will they be more inclined to a peaceful existence with India? Will they be able to see thr` the games that their army brass plays to keep itself in power? If not, AR`s visit is a waste.

layman -- whose trying to defend a military dictator??

omar_r_quraishi #145:
Dude, even under dictatorship, one can have `rule of law`. What matters is who is framing these laws? Is it a dictator, who has imposed himself on the country, or is it a set of elected representatives. The latter being a democracy.
It is true that Babri demolishers, Gujarat rioters etc have not been punished. The law has failed here, the sytem has failed badly here, I agree. But that does not mean democracy is rule of law. Pakistan is currently a military dictatorship. Does this mean there is no rule of law there?

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omar_r_quraishi

Welcome back ! Well, lets see now. The last time you fled this list was when we asked you why Dawn was replacing ``extremist`` by ``freedom fighter`` in wire service stories. Your explanation was that these things are normal and only ``sophisticated`` people could understand this.

I have bad news for you. We unsophisticated people are still lurking here. We still don`t understand why headlines like ``Freedom Fighters kill 7 in wedding Party`` don`t make all reasonable people want to throw up. Any new insights? Or the usual hypocritical double talk?

nasah -- thanks for your feedback -- well i come on the website usually when im at work so lets see how long this interaction lasts -- thanks for the suggestion for writing for chowk but i think a fulltime job that involves writingevery day is more than enuff -- and yea i suppose one must respond to all remarks here, even if some of them are silly or personal -- veeresh: sorry dont know much about indian newspapers being published in urdu -- but im sure dawn would be interested in an article on them --

Omar # 124 . . . just btw . . . what did you think of our Indian Urdu media?

dear omar_r_quraishi

welcome to the hornet nest called Chowk -- I enjoy reading your columns in Dawn.

so r u having a good time? -- looks like u love to tangle -- then don`t go away -- stay.

if u really want to do something crazy -- poke the hornet nest -- write a column for Chowk:-)

hasan

well brat the main reason there wasnt a comparison to pakistani papers was coz it was published in dawn and hence the prime audience was pakistani readers -- and in any case, frankly speaking, it was probably getting a bit long -

well arjunm its interesting to say that coz i was in india recently and even a hindustan times reporter in delhi was complaining that his paper was giving too much preference to stories that were glamourous and all as opposed to hard news and that the editor veer sanghvi (who comes a lot on star plus) was much to blame for this -- other senior indian journalists were saying that mr sanghvi was a bit of a self-promoter -- but then again, apparently, the HT sells the most in northern india

rsaxena -- and listen u ``u goddamn idiot`` (haha) the indian papers change the text of stories from AFP or Reuter or PTI or UNI also, just like Pakistani papers do -- now do u get it u ``u goddamn idiot`` --- hahahah -- what a sorry ass loser we have on chowk ! hahaha

rsaxena -- yawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

dost mittar --- wow im impressed u read karachian -- thats by the way me too ! hahahah -- actually its open to contributions to people as long as it relates to life in karachi or has some relevance to the city --

actually dost mittar -- the editing standard in pakistani papers is much worse and besides indian papers are not easily accessible in pakistan, not at least in hard copy form for me to follow them that closely, but by and large pakistani newspapers are probably edited worse than indian papers

jay -- your posts are getting a bit predictable -- as u said yourself bilal ahmed was one of the few people who u failed to annoy -- u should perhaps ask yourself: is there more to life than annoying others? hahah

OMAR, NOT KHAYYAM,

So, omar the journalist has compared tha pak and indian news papers. You should have compared the reports of events in the other country in the two papers, the preoccupation with kashmir, the killings, the deaths. Well, no doubt in your scale these are hard news and obviously dawn is superior. Again, this is another example of focussing on the irrelevant. Indian papers have so much of column inch on fashion, great, give one reason why it is so low in pakistan. You should start a regular feature on burkha fashion in dawn.

REMEMBERING BILAl AHMED,

Bilal was one of the most noble souls to grace chowk, one of the very few I intercactd several times, and probably the only one I failed to annoy. His sense of objectivity bordered on the saintly, his belief in reasoned discourse bordered on convictions. He was a shooting star that illuminated the chowk. Good bye Bilal.

Jayaprakash

re: fuzair

{I just received some sad news from Ali, Prof. Bilal Ahmad`s son. Prof. Bilal passed away on Sept. 1. His cancer had made him extremely weak and was no longer treatable.}

...oh dear...i didn`t even know him personally, and i feel like crying :(...he was so far above our bickering on chowk...

Dear Chowkwallahs:

I just received some sad news from Ali, Prof. Bilal Ahmad`s son. Prof. Bilal passed away on Sept. 1. His cancer had made him extremely weak and was no longer treatable.

Those of us who have been on Chowk for some time will remember Prof. Bilal as a very kind and gentle soul whose wise counsel will be missed by all who had the good fortune to have known him. Even those who disagreed with his reasoning, as on occasion I did, could not fault where his heart lay. He was a humanist in the best sense of the term.

I am sure we will all miss him greatly.

omar_qureshi:

Are you Pakistani newspaper guys going to stop referring to wily Banias and cunning Brahmins, when you mean Indians, anytime soon?

Once that happens, we can compare the quality and independence of newspapers in Indian and Pakistan.

re: omar_quraishi

{how come indian papers then continue to call them ``ultras`` or ``terrorists`` -- is that journalism? and dont answer that since i suspect you would again degenerate to a personal level -- yes that probably is their editorial policy -- obviously a concept u seem unfamiliar with --}

...umm, goddman idiot, read my post again...your newspaper takes articles written by OTHER news agencies and replaces words, and tries to pass them off as originials...there is a big difference between that, and choosing your own words for your own articles...the former case is plain and simple LYING...

...do you get it now?...or do you need to return to your madrassah for english 101 classes again?...

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Omar

Thank you for the article. I`ve heard something similar from a good friend of mine. That Indian newspapers do not produce quality news. At the end of the article, I (being an Indian) was still looking for comparison to Pakistani newspapers. But it`s understandable since it was published in Dawn.

The pricing itself provides some clues, because Indian newspapers seem closer to magazine style than newspaper style?

Would it be possible to go a little more in depth and compare the establishments that produce these papers in both India and Pakistan?


Thanks!
Brat

WHO SAYS THERE IS NO FEUDALISM IN INDIA .THE WADHERA,THE ZAMINDARS OF PAKISTAN ARE THE CORRUPT INFLUENTIAL HARSHAD MEHTA,KETAN PAREKH,& BHARAT SHAH OF INDIA .IS THERE HONEST WAY TO ACCUMULATE EVEN ONE CRORE IN ONES LIFE TIME IN 3RD WORLD COUNTRY WHERE 90% PPL. GO WITHOUT BASIC AMENITIES EVERY DAY ???????

http://headlines.sify.com/popwin.html



Rs 70-crore Indian wedding dazzles Europe

Sep 2

A 10-million-pound Indian wedding in Belgium has hit headlines in Europe for setting a new benchmark for ``opulence and innovation``.

For a few days, Antwerp became a Bollywood fantasy for the double wedding of Vishal and Priya Shah, son and daughter of Vijay Shah, one of the biggest diamond dealers in the world, and brother of Bollywood producer Bharat Shah.

re Bina

Wow, this is a small world indeed! Ms Mustafa is a very good friend of my aunt(who wrote for Dawn herself for a long time and then edited HERALD). I myself have in the past done reviews for her. In fact, the first piece of writing I ever did for the public was in the DAWN children`s page two decades ago!

at the risk of being labelled self-promotional, but this is in reference to alephnull, here`s one of my `media review` columns -- from the dawn website of aug 17 -- im sure its bound to get some response from the indian readers here, as it did when it was printed -- hhahah

Cross-border journalism

By Omar R. Quraishi

The most common comparison that one often makes between Pakistani and Indian newspapers is that the one there are much much cheaper, in fact, a single newspaper here usually costs as much as a week`s supply in India. One complaint that some people in Pakistan have is that Indian newspapers and magazine are not easily available here. Perhaps many would say for good reason. You can access them on the Internet but then to read any paper in real is probably a different kind of experience.

A recent visit to India gave me a good chance of doing just that. For the price of one newspaper in Karachi. I could get six of New Delhi`s broadsheets: The Times of India, The Indian Express, The Tribune, The Statesman, The Hindustan Times and The Hindu. According to local journalists there, Delhi`s best-selling newspaper is The Hindustan Times with a circulation of around half a million. Compare this with the circulation of a few hundred thousand - nationwide - of Pakistan`s largest-selling Urdu newspaper.

The most obvious difference between Pakistani and Indian newspapers has to do with what`s on the front page. Page 1 of The Times of India on Aug 3 had six stories out of which only two could be termed as carrying `hard news` - as in informing readers that something had happened in the past 24 hours - in this case, an announcement by the chief election commissioner of India on the schedule for elections in Jammu and Kashmir.

The other four news items were more `featurish` in content: one was about the hitherto unresolved murder of a female Indian Express journalist. It had the New Delhi police saying that a government official was behind the murder. The other was how a price war between Air Tel and Hutch, two of Delhi`s leading mobile phone providers, was reducing prices for consumers.

A story on the year 2002 being on course to become the warmest year ever, and one which - quite surprisingly - quoted a single medical professor to say that laser eye surgery should be monitored, made up the rest of the front page. There was also a quarter page ad which said that it was introducing a new brand of atta, `Ashirwad.`

Unlike newspapers in Pakistan, the back pages of most Indian broadsheets have sports-related stories, and usually more than half the page is made of ads. Interestingly, enough, one of these back page adverts offered readers purchase of Abida Perveen`s cassettes.

The other major difference with our papers was the content of the metropolitan pages. Most of the metro pages of the Delhi papers had stories related to fashion and glamour on the front page, certainly not the case here. This also might have to do with the fact that the city was in the midst of holding India Fashion Week but local reporters said that their editors often preferred stories on entertainment, fashion and gossip instead of hard news, apparently because that increased circulation.

BC Verghese, a former editor of The Hindustan Times, a moderator of the workshop I had gone to India to attend, noted this trend saying that there was a distressing tendency in many newspapers there to mix comment and reporting. It would be perfectly fine to do both, but separately of course, he said. Some of the local journalists complained that this tendency was just another, perhaps more perverse, example of the market dictating terms to the media.

The front page of the Times of India`s metro section (called Delhi Times) had a report on Rohit Bal, a well-known designer who would be having a show that day. The other `news` items included a report on M Shyamalam`s new movie Signs (he made the Hollywood hit Sixth Sense), a short comment on the significance or otherwise of the mangoes President Musharraf sent to the Indian prime minister, and director Mahesh Bhatt`s comments on the tapes allegedly linking underworld boss Chota Shakeel with actor Sanjay Dutt.

The inside pages hardly had any proper news stories as such. Around two-thirds of the space was taken up by ads (it was a Saturday) and the rest were reports on ongoing exhibitions, dinners and lunches (including one hosted by local Indian channel SABe where LK Advani was the chief guest), plays or the fashion week. That day`s issue also had a separate property section with not just real estate ads but also articles by newspaper staff on the various options available for readers interested in purchasing, say, a new house.

The editorial page content of The Times of India included: Earth`s Dearth, an article on combating pollution within the context of various international treaties and agreements; Hit Ka Raaz, an interview in question and answer format of Vikram Bhatt, maker of Raaz and Awara Pagal Deewana. One of the three editorials of the day was called `Kashmir Rethink` and criticized India`s approach to the area, arguing for a new approach but within the confines of the Indian constitution.

Moving on to the Indian Express, it had a follow-up of its scoop of the day before on how BJP leaders and their friends and families had benefited from LPG and petrol pump allocations by the union petroleum ministry. The front page lead on August 3, ``Pure for sure? From a CM`s son to state BJP chief`s wife`` was on how various members of the party had gotten out-of-turn allocations in Haryana and Punjab.

The five reporters who wrote the story talked individually to most of the 34 people who were mentioned in the report. A few days later, an announcement from the Indian prime minister`s office retrospectively cancelled all allocations made by the ministry.

The Express was significantly more investigative than its rivals, with major chunks of its national and metro section devoted to hard news reporting and political coverage. The last page, though, had fashion and art-related reports including a column by presumably a staffer badmouthing fashion week calling it the `Lakme Fracas Week.` The editorial page had a column from the editor-in-chief Shekhar Gupta and a `Reporters` Notebook.` One of its two editorials was related to Pakistan and commented on Musharraf`s ``apology`` to Bangladesh.

Pakistani readers will probably recall that ``regrets`` were expressed but the Express opted to use the word `apology.` It appreciated the gesture of the Pakistani president saying that it was significant that an army ruler had actually done so but then said that this was done ``after the severe indictment by the previous regime in Dhaka, which literally demanded such a gesture.``

It then tried to employ sociological reasoning to write, rather sarcastically: ``Pakistanis have been suffering under the great delusion that India was responsible for the break-up of their country, and hence a deep sense of anger and desire for revenge against India had been fostered in the minds of a whole generation by the elite. Getting this bile out of their system should have a salutary effect on the general health of Pakistan.``

(email: omarq@cyber.net.pk)

harpreet # 87

check this, excerpts from kartography...

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books3.htm

this is getting a bit funny -- and so it is necessary to clear the confusion -- for bina, alephnull and i think some others -- yes i am not omar kureishi, who comments on cricket and is around thrice my age -- and never really claimed to be him -- and for the record, since there was a bit of confusion, am in my eighth year of dawn -- as for alephnull since u said u didnt recall reading any of my articles perhaps u didnt and so u couldnt recall -- what u wish to read is your business -- perhaps this has more to do with the nature of my work since the past two years -- bina is right as in i think i met her some time back when i was a reporter -- in 2000 i was promoted to assistant editor and now write editorials -- of course all comments on chowk are in personal capacity (lest some of the more fringe elements use this introduction of mine against me) -- and in editorials the writer`s name doesnt come -- i also write a weekly column every saturday called `media review` and write and compile `karachi notebook` -- a column that appears every monday -- i suppose that should be enough -- and alephnulll i have no idea really what you seem to be referring to when u commented on rsaxena`s rather disingenuous remark that i work for a newspaper that lies -- hahah -- i suppose the name issue is sorted out -- in any case rsaxena dawn probably lies as much as the times of india or the indian express -- and as for layman`s remarks about what dawn writes and how good the indian media is , well thats his opinion -- why is that most of the indians on this website get downright personal and emotional -- and no layman the reason the indian media is so supportive of the establishment line over J and K isnt necessarily because its right but because they are being Indian, just like the Pakistani press is being Pakistani -- and in any case why dont u guys get over it -- i mean if u hate dawn or other pakistani papers so much dont read them -- surely no one forces you to do that -- i think the confusion over the name issue is quite laughable as is the suggestion by some people to suggest that ``omar r quraishi`` was somehow trying to use his name`s resemblance to omar kureishi to chat here on chowk --

no rsaxena -- u sound like a bigger ``goddamn idiot`` -- hahah

err no jay -- u didnt really upset me -- just made me laugh --

ok rsaxena -- all indian papers call the maoist guerilla fighters in assam and the northeast ``ultras`` -- the guerillas say time and again that they are fighting for autonomy and the abuse of power by the centre in new delhi -- how come indian papers then continue to call them ``ultras`` or ``terrorists`` -- is that journalism? and dont answer that since i suspect you would again degenerate to a personal level -- yes that probably is their editorial policy -- obviously a concept u seem unfamiliar with --

omair_r_quraishi #84:

``romair -- your spot on about your observation on the english press in pakistan and that in india -- without trying to sound jingoistic the indian press usually follows the line of the establishment in india, esp when it comes to matters related to national security and/or kashmir, something that the english press here in pakistan doesnt do so much at all``

This is a bit rich, considering that the Pak press, including Dawn, is of the ``Freedom fighters kill seven of wedding party`` variety. The Indian media, OTOH, is known for opposing the govt stand on almost every issue that one can think of. Newspapers have exposed countless scams (Bofors by The Hindu to recent petrol pump scandal by Indian Express), and led crusades against corrupt leaders. The only time when the Indian media went majorly wrong was during the Emergency, when in Advani`s famous words, ``when they were asked to bend, they crawled``, with the honourable exception of the Indian Express.

If the Indian media, by and large, takes the establishment line on national security and J&K, could you consider the possibility that it is because the establishment line is RIGHT? Even when it comes to national security, you are wrong - the Indian media has criticised the govt for intelligence failures in Kargil, and for the extended deployment of the army at the LoC and IB.

You just seem to be frustrated that the Indian media is not saying, lets hand over J&K to the Pakis.

Sigalph -

I do write for Mrs. Mustafa who is the editor of Books and Authors. Lovely lady. The Books and Authors section has been the best idea Dawn has had all year long, and I am sure she was the one who thought of it! But I am not with Dawn on a peromanent basis, I merely freelance for them.

Reply #: 109

jay

``Wrong information amounts to insulting the intelligence of PTV viewers. More than anything else, PTV has a duty towards its viewing public.``

This guy who wrote the letter does not know how PTV works. It is a govt media, designed to propogate a certain viewpoint. I am not shocked at the misinformation about the number of jews in India. What if many Pakis truely believe that to be the case? I am reminded of my good Pakistani friend in New York who innocently asked me once if Chinese had not come all the way to Bombay during the 1962 war! Needless to say i had a good laugh.

Sridhar

re Bina 113

On a tangent, are you still with DAWN? Do you know an editor (with Books Review) by the name of Zubeida Mustafa?

Bina #113

Fair enough. Here are Dawn articles by Omar Kureishi:

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/31/spt8.htm

http://www.dawn.com/2000/08/09/spt8.htm

http://www.mnet.fr/aiindex/Kargil/warclouds.html

And here is Omar R Quraishi:

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/27/fea.htm#1

I`d read any number of Dawn articles by the first - and presumably more famous - gentleman, (occasionally on current events but mostly on cricket) but none by the second; I couldn`t make out a clear difference in opinions based on the Chowk posts.

Omar is a journalist for the Dawn; I`ve met him many times covering Karachi events and while working for the Dawn myself. The Omar Kureishi that you refer to is some famous fellow, I believe uncle of Hanif Kureishi. Omar R. Qureshi calls himself such to make sure there is no confusion between the two names.

rsaxena #110

{...dude, you work for a newspaper that LIES...it takes articles from other news agencies and replaces individiual words (i.e. ``terrorists`` become ``freedom fighters``) and does not even acknowledge that it did that...}

What you say about Dawn`s alteration of articles is very true. However, I could not help noticing that the Dawn columnist and sports commentator transcribes his name as Kureishi, quite unlike his doppelganger omar_r_quraishi on Chowk. There may be nothing to it of course ... just thought I`d mention it.

Omar 108,

Sorry to have upset you. You are far better than the experts of PTV, and you are only a journalist, interpretation and knowledge cannot be your speciality. From dawn of today

PTV panelist`s wrong claim

I was quite shaken to my foundations upon seeing a programme on PTV aired in the Middle East about India`s `Jewish connection`. The programme in Urdu (Aug 27) was a discussion by four panelists on India`s `sham democracy` and `sham secularism` etc.

No complaints about that as any government can further its agenda. However, I was shocked out of my wits when a lady panelist said that ``more than 350 million people in India are of Jewish origin.``

At first I thought I was hearing things, but the figure of 350 million was repeated ad nauseum. There had been a few thousand Jews in India in the past but, I think, only a few dozen may have left now and that, too, only in the southern Indian state of Kerala.

Wrong information amounts to insulting the intelligence of PTV viewers. More than anything else, PTV has a duty towards its viewing public.

A.C. JOHN

Doha, Qatar

re: omar_quraishi

...dude, you work for a newspaper that LIES...it takes articles from other news agencies and replaces individiual words (i.e. ``terrorists`` become ``freedom fighters``) and does not even acknowledge that it did that...that is journalism???....hahaha....you must be a goddamn idiot to believe that...kinda like your dictator deluding himself and his country that he is holding ``elections``...

Tidbit;

[Harpeet: is her new novel any good?? *bias creeping in * =p]

- I dont know, thats why I was asking whether it was worth reading :)

She wrote an article about a recent festival of India that was held in London and she just relayed lazy leftist platitudes about white Britains attitude to multi-culturalism mixed with a Pakistanis eye view of Englands Indian community. So I wondered if her fiction was any better than her journalism.

-h-

hahah jay - it seems u have an alleged mind -- better to have a dictator who is up front about his intentions than to have someone like l k advani who as deputy prime minister and interior minister is probably the worst despot going around -- in any case mr jay (afraid to give your real name now? tsk tsk) -- if your ever in karachi, and i suspect your probably not resident in pakistan, plz do drop in by my alleged office in the alleged newspaper Dawn -- hahahah your use of alleged by the way is quite faulty --

and oh yes, mr jay (or K or whatever), i suppose there is legislation in india against killings of dalits and tribals by upper castes -- stop making such a fool of yourself ! hahah

QUALITY OF JOURNALISM, POST 84

fOLLOWING IS A QUOTE BY AN ALLEGED TOP JOURNALIST OF PAKISTAN, OF COURSE IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE, ONE OF THE EDUCATED ELITES OF PAKISTAN.

``romair -- your spot on about your observation on the english press in pakistan and that in india -- without trying to sound jingoistic the indian press usually follows the line of the establishment in india, esp when it comes to matters related to national security and/or kashmir, something that the english press here in pakistan doesnt do so much at all -- i might be a bit biased perhaps since i am a journalist myself in an english newspaper in pakistan but it seems a pretty fair assessment``

///Where the alleged journalist has missed the point is that the india is not ruled by a dictator, nor a system when nawaz was signing the lahore declaration, the military was organising invasion at kargil. The military and the nawaz govt stated that kargill invasion was by the jihadists and thousands of pak troops died in disgrace. In india, the govt being an elected one, there is a lot of convergence between the views of the govt and that of the elite.

Again take the example, honour killing, every chowk paki says he/she/it is against it, but the mighty ,ushy who can make so much changes to the constitution cannot dare to declare honour killing as illegal. Take the case of dowry killing in india, there have been specific legislations against it.

The post by the alleged journalist is the lowest point of pak education and journalism.

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re: romair`s book club picks

1) imran khan-- i dont know romair ...........

hey do you speak kashmiri?

Saudi Censorship of Web Ranges Far Beyond Tenets of Islam, Study Finds

By JENNIFER 8. LEE

THE Saudi government is censoring public Internet access to a degree that goes significantly but haphazardly beyond its stated central goal of blocking sexually explicit content that violates the values of Islam, according to a recent study by Harvard Law School researchers.

The study`s detailed list of blocked sites offers a glimpse into the areas that the Saudi government has deemed most troubling. Among them are sites related to pornography, women`s rights, gays and lesbians, non-Islamic religions and criticism of political restrictions. Many humor and entertainment sites have also been blocked.

The report, by the law school`s Berkman Center for Internet and Society, was completed with the cooperation of the Saudi government. It is the first in a series by the center on Internet filtering by governments around the world.

``When the cost of the censoring is just flipping a switch, it`s a lot easier to enforce,`` said Jonathan Zittrain, a director of the Berkman Center and an author of the report. ``That makes it more appealing to a number of regimes.``

Saudi Arabia, with China, is widely considered to have one of the most restrictive Internet-access policies. Before granting the public access to the Internet in 1999, the Saudi government spent two years building a controlled infrastructure so that all Internet traffic would pass through government-controlled servers.

The Internet Service Unit, which controls Saudi Arabia`s Web access, says that blocking pornography is its main focus, accounting for 95 percent of the pages it blocks. But its Web site says Web pages subject to blocking include those ``related to drugs, bombs, alcohol, gambling and pages insulting the Islamic religion or the Saudi laws`` — a policy that is largely an extension of the country`s censorship regulations for the news media and entertainment.

The government does not provide a public list of offending sites. But the Internet Service Unit gave Harvard researchers access to the computer servers for several days in May. They requested 64,557 distinct Web pages and found 2,038 blocked.

Saudi citizens with a bit of knowledge about the Internet have found some ways to get around the government firewall. Some dial up to Internet service providers in other countries. Others get around the firewall at no extra cost by using intermediary computers on the Internet, known as proxies, to disguise the source of the traffic.

The Harvard report tries to piece together the criteria under which Web sites are censored. ``Ordinarily, when censors declare something to be bad, they have to file it,`` said Benjamin Edelman, the other author of the report. ``Here the software allows blacklists to be secret.``

The Saudi government uses software called SmartFilter, created by Secure Computing in San Jose, Calif., to block most of the pornographic, gambling and drug-related sites. But the SmartFilter software is also customized with blacklists provided by Saudi security agencies, the Saudi Internet administrators said. Among the pages selected by security agencies are some that are critical of Saudi Arabia`s political situation, like the Web sites of Amnesty International and the Saudi Institute, another human rights watchdog group.

The Saudi government, which does not allow women to drive, has also restricted access to information about women`s advances elsewhere. The ``Women in American History`` section of Encyclopaedia Britannica Online (www.women.eb.com), which summarizes the women`s rights movement from 1600 to the present, is blocked. IVillage (ivillage.com), a popular American advice and support site for women, is also blacklisted.

``Clearly there are sensitivities about women`s rights,`` Professor Zittrain said.

The report also ticks off a broad range of blocked religion-oriented sites, from Christian to Jewish to Buddhist to Hindu ones. Yet even sites that are not overtly political or sexual in nature are filtered, like the magazine site rollingstone.com; Warner Brothers Records, at wbr.com; and www .ifrance.com, a French-language entertainment and information site.

The Harvard report is available at cyber .law.harvard.edu/filtering/saudiarabia

aicha: u betcha! =o)

Harpeet: is her new novel any good?? *bias creeping in * =p

tc,

Samina

excuse me tahmed -- but what i was also trying to imply was that since im a journalist myself i might have a more informed opinion than an outsider --

re: stuka

{You seem to be agreeing with Ali#1 on this. What`s going on??? The hilarious part was watching Hamid Gul getting AR`s book signed...lol}

...don`t get me started on AR again...anyway, are you still at that desi party?....

omar qureshi #84 you write ``-- i might be a bit biased perhaps since i am a journalist myself in an english newspaper in pakistan ``

you got that right. Now please sit quietly while I do my tragic act, viz.

Scene 1

Stage design: rocky coastal area, with flashes of lightening and occasional thunder. tahmed321 enters the stage.

tahmed (raising arms to the heavens): Oh Father of All that Is, that Was, that Will Be. Why do these chowk posters speak in generalities??

Lord (to accompaniment of a particularly loud thunder): Silence, thou ignorant knave! Dost thou not know better than to ask such obvious questions!

tahmed: But Lord! Here is the journalist qureshi, of great respectability from the reknowned newspaper Dawn. And he just said ``Indian journalists toe the government line. Pakistani journalists, at least of English newspapers (or which, ahem!, I am one), do not``. What manner of talk is this, Oh Lord?

Lord (in gentler tone): I see what you mean. Here is a secret: I gave up on all you damn South Asians a long time ago. You guys just cant talk straight!

Shandana, it`s been a long time...where have you been?

Well written as always. Of late, Arundhati Roy seems to be the one sane person (at least the one heard sane person) in a world gone mad. I am jealous. I need some crazed inspiration myself.

24 head

Dude, what are you talking about?

THERE ARE 4 MILLION CLINICALLY EVIDENT PATIENTS & 10 MILLION UNDIAGNOSED SUCH FUTURE PATENTS.

Imagine 4 million people human being after whom democracy human rights & bill of Rights were made suffering alone neglected,uncared for rotting penniless .....& now imagine the country having Nuclear bomb belonging to super Class of Super Power Wannabe .....Isnt the word inconsistency come to mind when you put them to gether

Wait till i tell you anpther 10 million exposed patients cant afford few Rupees from this `` RICH``I.T.T. revolutionary luminous from 7 beacons of I.I.T. towers showering economic boom & $$ raining cats & dogs according to Arjun_M

http://www.deccan.com/headlines/lead5.shtml

HIV patient kills daughter



Eluru, Aug 28: In a tragic incident, a terminally ill HIV positive patient, worried over the uncertain future of her only daughter, slit her throat with a knife and attempted suicide at Prakasaraopalem in Nallajerla mandal in West Godavari district on Wednesday.

According to police, the victim Sravani Sandhya (13) is the daughter of Krishnakumari. Her father died three years ago after contracting Aids. Later, her mother also started showing symptoms of the dreaded AIDS disease.

On Tuesday, Krishnakumari slashed the throat of her sleeping daughter and then overcome with grief, tried to stab herself to death. However, Krishnakumari was prevented from taking her own life by her father, R Koteswara Rao. The body of the girl was sent to hospital for post-mortem. Tadepalligudem police is investigating the case.

re: saminashah

{Have you read the book? No? Then take a big swig of SHADDUP JUICE and SIT DOWN!}

..hahahaha...that`s right, lay the smack down the on that monkey...

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heyy Tidbit - tge bk I was talking about was - Transfer something - sorry : ) I def will try to get hold of On Air. Traffic was an eye opener for me too. Loved the endign - good justice!! Any others pls keep us posted.

fawad99 - yes I did catch the tail ending of the show. One of my friends calle dup and said `I am feeling very disturbed - can you pls come`. I ran down thinkign this is it - the shoe s on the other foot - my chance to do some major comforting, dole out advice, good cheer etc etc - the nut was watching this on TV. Some people take things to heart - what can I say. As for the show - couldnt tell how much was sensationalism and how much was reality!! Oflate I have noticed parents really do know what is best for their children and it is best to listen to them !!

24 Buttinsky Sahib,

re: ``...The Muslim Protestent wannabe...``

I beg your pardon? Would you care to explain that comment if it doesnt mean that you are ASSUMING (remember: ``ass of you when you assume?``) that Mr. S is a Prot and not Catholic or even Muslim, for that matter? Some assumptions even bigger than progressive`s behind, dont you think?

But yes, I like lots of people would want to be Muslim if only half wits like yourself would stop giving it the odor of jahiliya....

re: ``...AND YOU BELIEVED IT ...``

Have you read the book? No? Then take a big swig of SHADDUP JUICE and SIT DOWN!

:)

re:``...I chalenge you to rear a child to make him opposite sex just by treating your ways & be able to lactate & parturate from the male ...``

Actually 24 head Buttinsky Sahib, according to the last decree of Jawaharism, YOU were supposed to conceive and birth a child....we are WAITING.....so until you do, you`d better step lightly-any more stupid comments to semi precious will get you in a world of kaka. So, lets have that baby....

ok after i came home from work ....i saw this thing on nbc dateline about that sikh girl in canada did anyone see that ????

it was about honor killings .........

poor girl ........

Some good and/or famous authors of Pakistani origin (after doing research for TKG):

Mohsin Hamid (Moth Smoke is the best South Asian book I have read so far), Kamila Shamsie (Indians may not like her, once they get to know her. She is a speaker/writer on human rights violations in Kashmir. My kind of girl....), Hanif Qureshi (My Beautiful Laundrette fame), Tariq Ali (A self-proclaimed athiest. Reading his Islamic quintet, at the moment. Not a great writer, but he is a reservoir of information. And he is the best debator I have ever heard anywhere). Bapsi Sidhwa (of 1947 movie fame). Muneeza Shamsie (Kamila`s mother). Imran Khan (Odd choice for this group. But I think his autobiography is the only book by a Pakistani to be a no. 1 Best Seller in England. He actually writes reasonably well).

romair -- your spot on about your observation on the english press in pakistan and that in india -- without trying to sound jingoistic the indian press usually follows the line of the establishment in india, esp when it comes to matters related to national security and/or kashmir, something that the english press here in pakistan doesnt do so much at all -- i might be a bit biased perhaps since i am a journalist myself in an english newspaper in pakistan but it seems a pretty fair assessment

v nice piece.

tft is brilliant.

aakar

Tidbit;

Thanks for that. Kamila Shamshie is making a name for herself as a journalist in the British press as a commentator on Pakistani/Indian/Islamic issues. But she has this new novel out called ``Kartography`` which she tail-ends her articles with a mention of.

-h-

hello everyone - Maniza Naqvi - has anyone read her? She is the one who wrtoe Traffic which was made into a British TV movie precursor to the rehashed American one. I read another one of hers which was allright but to each his/her own.

``fawad;

Yeah I have read ``Moth Smoke``. I really liked it alot. I also realised that it is the only Pakistani book/novel I have read in my life.

What is Kamila Shamshie like? Is she a good writer? Is it worth reading one of her books?

-h-``

Harpeet:

KAmila Shamsie is a bohat hi fazool author...if yer thinking of reading `Salt and Saffron` forget it!!...full-time family saga with no real purposes...some places i thought she was a bit too inspired by Salman Rushdie`s `Midnight Children` (or Children of Midnight...cant remember the exact name...)

waisay `Moth Smoke` is one of my favs too...=o)

tc,

Samina

fawad;

Yeah I have read ``Moth Smoke``. I really liked it alot. I also realised that it is the only Pakistani book/novel I have read in my life.

What is Kamila Shamshie like? Is she a good writer? Is it worth reading one of her books?

-h-

Dost Mittar,

I was not aware of the Woolf/Blooms` personal lives.

The Woolf/Blooms also created their own printing press, a revolutionary idea at the time.

It might be edifying for you to read some of Woolf`s work. Orlando is a good read-an excellent argument that gender is constructed through action and not biology.

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Romair,

Regarding Daily Times-PPP connection, is The Friday Times published by this Salman Taseer as well?

TFT seemed to be bullish about BB and it will be quite disappointing to know that there was such a blatant conflict of interest.

My dear prince -- welcome to the Tower of the Babel/Babble called Chowk -- you surely have an interesting and a very fair way of comparing ideologies.

You write:

``The leftists and peacniks are good at noisily (sometimes violently) highlighting the obviuos problems and their solution usually involves a `lecture circuit`. (off-course, the rightist`s solutions usually involves killing somebody). In my opinion, both are dangerous and I don`t want to chose between them.``

U r EXACTLY right -- the lunatic leftists and the peaceniks who go on the rampage of ``lecture circuits`` are -- ``equally dangerous`` -- as the rightist who KILL -- EVEN innocent human beings --(humans who are not innocent certainly deserve to die).

you are RIGHT to avoid -- a lecture circuit noisy leftist who kills our ear drums -- and a cold blooded rightist who kills men women and children -- they `all look the same`-- and it is impossible for any discerning person to distinguish between the two.

dost-mittar #70: ``Ban such enemies of democracy!``

Sarcasm requires a certain amount of talent, which everyone does not possess. I would suggest you not give up your day job.

The past three years have seen more newspapers and more open television current affairs programs flourish in Pakistan, than I have seen in my whole life. I never thought I would see the day when opposition politicians would be able to come on PTV and openly criticize sitting govts. Specially since these same opposition politicians never allowed this when they were ruling Pakistan. The journalists themselves have stated that the Pakistan press is more free than it has ever been. Please see Madeeha Gohar`s interview on BBC. I also think that the Pakistan English press is quite a bit more balanced, and far more critical of its own govt., than the Indian English press. Just my opinion.

At the same time, I think any newspaper which is owned by a political party, or a prominent candidate of a political party, will be biased. And I think it is unethical for journalists to push the agenda of a particular party, while simultaneously trying to portray themselves as being impartial, by working for such newspapers. The journalists` views are bound to become biased, which actually leads to a more strangled press, than a free press. This is just my personal opinion.

This does not mean the newspaper should be banned. It just means that one should take the views of the journalists writing for such newspapers, with a grain of salt. As opposed to the views of people like Ayaz Amir, who have kept their political careers completely separated from their journalist careers.

I think this will reduce Sethi`s credibility. And other newspapers will start taking pot shots at him, as the spokesperson of PPP:

``Salman Taseer`s politics in doldrums

By Our Staff Reporter

LAHORE-Fear of being knocked down for lacking qualification required to contest parliamentary poll restrained Salman Taseer from filing his nomination papers for a National Assembly seat.

Salman was PPP Parliamentarians` candidate for NA-122 who decided against filing papers at the last moment after being told that under University Grants Commission rules his degree in chartered accountancy does not hold equivalence with graduation......

Perhaps to avoid the hat trick of defeats Salman chose to stay out of electoral politics in 1997. But according to his close friends it was only because he was too pre-occupied with his business project in the UAE from where he later returned to buy PACE.

Last year this heavily insured store was gutted in mysterious circumstances.

Now that Salman has just got into a publication business he was reportedly advised by his partner not to contest from the PPP platform to avoid the newspaper from being labelled a party paper. ``Partner, I agree; but I have no choice as Benazir wanted me to contest the election at every cost,`` he is quoted as having replied.`` (Nation, Pakistan http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/national/lhr2.htm)

The above maybe false, and Salman Taseer maybe the greatest guy in the world. But I think his political affiliations will always put a question mark over the credibility of his newspaper.

romair - u r right about salman taseer -- well the one main reason why najam sethi would have agreed to have salman taseer as publisher would be because it costs a lot of money to take out a daily newspaper -- and in any case its not as if najam sethi and jugnoo mohsin never had their own political agendas -- after all mr sethi served in a caretaker regime as accountability adviser when meraj khalid was caretaker prime minister

princejoy: you should change your nick to princebitter ! hahah -- pothik -- the dawn headline ``a roy criticizes indian govt`` was that because that`s what she did in her speech -- its called spot reporting....

prince_joy #57, `` I love to watch the interesting interactions between indians and pakistanis here without too much name calling and abuse. ``

you ain`t seen nothing yet.

semipreciousme #68: Daily Times is available at www.dailytimes.com.pk

``Chowk`s Inspector General, this TAhmed guy who irons his socks, will officially welcome you and monitor your behavior on Chowk.``

TAhmed however is politeness personified even when he ticks you off unlike .........

re: romair # 64

...interesting point...since i don`t get the dalilytimes, i really can`t say...but as is with newspapers everywhere, the views of the publisher/s usually get more of an airing...

semipreciousme : ``…he’s just the editor…the publisher’s salman taseer…"

This is interesting. Salman Taseer is a PPPliya. He is going to be a PPP(P) candidate from Lahore this time around.

Do you think this makes The Daily Times a PPP newspaper? At the very least, one would have to agree, that the newspaper would have some bias, if not a strong one, towards the party which its owner represents. I always wondered why the Daily Times lacks in open criticism of feudals and the PPP. Infact, even Sethi, in his editorials, has started requesting the govt. to go easy on Benazir etc.

Major newspapers, being owned directly by politicians who are candidates of any particularly party, is something I cannot support. It makes them uncredible. I am surprised Sethi agreed to such an idea. It reduces Sethi`s credibility.

Ayaz Amir did not write any articles when he was an MPA from PML. He gave up his Assembly seat, and only then returned to Dawn, to write articles.

What do you think?

Shandana: Would you happen to have any information about my previous comment about Salman Taseer, Sethi, The Daily Times and the fact that Taseer is a PPP candidate.

fawad..

yes..i have read Moth Smoke..just found my copy buried in the recesses of one of my unpacked boxes..will dust it off, and revisit it again..have you read it?

prince_joy # 58:

``But I also believe people like N. Ram and A. Roy would have a lot more credibility atleast in my eyes by changing the establishment from within by standing in elections rather than by throwing stones from outside -``

I was also a ``The Hindu`` addict till I came to US. The leftists and peacniks are good at noisily (sometimes violently) highlighting the obviuos problems and their solution usually involves a `lecture circuit`. (off-course, the rightist`s solutions usually involves killing somebody). In my opinion, both are dangerous and I don`t want to chose between them.

You raised an important point ... why can`t ARoys of India become part of a political party (Green party .. may be). In this era of coalition politics, they may be able to change the philosophy of governace. If they can manage 10-12 seats in the parliment, the entire central govt will be dancing to their tunes. They won`t do it ... you know why? They are IRRESPONSIBLE.

ana; harpreet

have you read mothsmoke?

Ref. Prince_JOy`s Post

``I am new to chowk. was referred by a friend.``

Chowk`s Inspector General, this TAhmed guy who irons his socks, will officially welcome you and monitor your behavior on Chowk.

Cheers

Lucy

dost-mittar,#56

we share a frighteningly similar view of Bloomsbury as we do our taste in Hindi filims :)

hi folks,

I am new to chowk. was referred by a friend. I have been following discussions here for a few days now and I am really impressed by the length and breadth of topics taken here. It is a refreshing change from India-specific discussion forums on the web some of which I left in disgust. I love to watch the interesting interactions between indians and pakistanis here without too much name calling and abuse. I confess I have learnt more about south asian issues in the last few days here than in the past many years. I hope to contribute and learn in this august forum.

The Joyful Prince.

Looks like A. Roy,N Ram and co has made quite an impact on the chatterring classes of pakistan. There is widespread coverage on pakistani newspapers esp. friday times. Unfortunately it was merely a blip in the Indian ones.

I am very familiar with N. Ram having been raised on a staple diet of rice, sambar, idli, morning coffee and ``The Hindu``. In my younger days when I just started reading newspapers, i used to hate this guy for being anti-everything. Many days I have spent fuming at his editorials and opinion pieces which smash everything but conveniently offer few solutions. Looks like A. Roy is from the same mould only more young and glamorous. The common mould of the anti-establishment leftists. I guess the pakistani elite just lap it up, primarily beacuse she takes on the Indian establishment. As far as her credibility goes, here is my two cents. I believe people like her are necessary and should be appreciated in this age when the elite, the establishment and the buisiness interests collude to ignore and suppress inconvenient social issues like the narmada dam. And I do appreciate the fact the she hasn`t retired as a celebrity or as a social butterfly. But I also believe people like N. Ram and A. Roy would have a lot more credibility atleast in my eyes by changing the establishment from within by standing in elections rather than by throwing stones from outside - worse still from the soil of a hostile country.

The Joyful Prince.

Reply Ana # 46

``I am somewhat intrigued by your mentioning Virginia Woolf and the Bloomsbury group, how it was in some sense the precursor to the modern women`s liberation movement, and that it had more men than women..men like Lytton Strachey for example, and E.M Forster...``

But behain, they w ere big girls only, na?

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Ras Siddiq #48

But tell me honestly:

Will it make the Pakistanis sit up and see their own face in the mirror?

Unfortunately, it seems that a number of Pakistanis were overjoyed by Roy`s criticism of the Indian govt, conveniently ignoring the fact that she was raging against the entire South Asian political establishment and sparing none. Even a paper like Dawn ran a headline like ``AR criticises Indian gov``. Today I read the editorial in TFT where even Najam Sethi blamed Indians for the failure of each and every peace effort before Lahore. He would have clinched the credit for the Lahore effort for Pakistan too but for Kargil.

With this type of selective appreciation and blind self-adulation, I am not sure AR is going to make any lasting impression on the Pakistani mindset.

re:

aamir/deepika/fatimah/bijligle/godknowshowmanymoreheads

“Make up your fickle mind or is it feeble or unpredictable??”

…gee, so this is what you call it when you’re having trouble choosing your nick-of-the-day?…

“On YLH board you raved about her & sensing the flow of the wind against AR,you chime like an echoliliac addh kid ``..roast chicken``?????”

…i’ll rave about ms.roy whenever/wherever/however i feel like…suffice to say you’re not fit to lick her boots…and to reiterate, the roast chicken was damn good….

ai1

“Also, where the hell has Sethi gotten the $$$ to launch an english newspaper from Karachi and Lahore simultaneously???”

…he’s just the editor…the publisher’s salman taseer…

ana & dost-mittar;

Here is an essay, an explication of ``The Three Guineas``, which both of you may find interesting and provocative, especially ana;

[ Blame it on Bloomsbury

She is one of the most influential writers of the modern age. But, argues Theodore Dalrymple, with her fatal mix of privilege and self-pity, Virginia Woolf inflicted lasting damage on western culture ]

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,775670,00.html

-h-

...here`s the great arundhati roy whining about american efforts to rid afghanistan of the taliban and al qaeda...yeah, a whole lot of credibility this $hit is going to have with anyone other than loonies who think inviting the taliban and al qaeda to tea and biscuits would`ve solved the problem!...

{As darkness deepened over Afghanistan on Sunday October 7 2001, the US government, backed by the International Coalition Against Terror (the new, amenable surrogate for the United Nations), launched air strikes against Afghanistan. TV channels lingered on computer-animated images of cruise missiles, stealth bombers, tomahawks, ``bunker-busting`` missiles and Mark 82 high drag bombs. All over the world, little boys watched goggle-eyed and stopped clamoring for new video games.

The UN, reduced now to an ineffective acronym, wasn`t even asked to mandate the air strikes. (As Madeleine Albright once said, ``We will behave multilaterally when we can, and unilaterally when we must.``) The ``evidence`` against the terrorists was shared amongst friends in the ``coalition``. }

AR has developed quite a following amongst the educated elite within the worldwide Pakistani community. She writes well and is an outspoken
critic of all kinds of fascism.
More power to her.

Ras

dost-mittar,

I am somewhat intrigued by your mentioning Virginia Woolf and the Bloomsbury group, how it was in some sense the precursor to the modern women`s liberation movement, and that it had more men than women..men like Lytton Strachey for example, and E.M Forster, and other names my memory struggles to recall. But my understanding of Woolf`s position within that movement was that although she had wonderful friendships with these men, that she still felt like an outsider in regards to her gender and her politics, and many if not all of the men within this group did not much care for her `Three Guineas` which says so much about gender disparity. You seem to have a different understanding, no? I`m not entirely convinced that the Bloomsbury group is a good example of `enlightened` men being supportive in fighting women`s oppression, but I`d like to know what you think.

Mittar ji, and Sammi..you`ve mentioned SAKHI, which prompts me to ask this question. Is domestic violence in a separate milieu from women`s oppression? Is it not incredibly political as well? Why then, are there South Asian anti-domestic violence organizations that eschew all things political???

...for the unmindful and the mindless....those

who think appearing cool is more important

than having it (protesting dams?! how uncool,

anti-modern, anti-national).....if you cannot

understand, or even think, dont try to belong to

a herd:

excerpts from a writeup by amitava kumar on

a roy:

......The successful enter into the Faustian

contract: they sell their souls to fame and

become its servitors. Roy didn`t. On the

Narmada issue, as after the nuclear tests,

Roy has chosen to go against the popular

grain. Her words have contested the pious

dogmas of the business-as-usual, safari

suited, bureaucracy-cum-political

establishment as well as its supporters.

In the mind of at least this reader of Roy, her

efforts in alliance with the Narmada Bachao