Road Blocks in Normalising Relations

Reply Stuka #27

“…but when an Islamist Pakistani talks of fascist Hindus etc, I don`t know whether to laugh at their faces or to punch my fist in their skull.”

Might I suggest that laughing is the better option? Nahin tho cyberfist, cyberskull…get my point, no?

“Urstruly or a Hobbyty, openly Islamist, telling us to be secular ...that is a joke and a half.”

At least on Chowk, bhai, Urstruly is more than made up for on uss paar ka team by such luminaries as Hamidm, Ferozk, Semipreciousme, anNy, Tahmed, SameerJB, Binifer and many many others (including the good Field Marshal, yes). If it’s any comfort I’m sure “Islamists” irritate them more than they irritate you (though of course I myself enjoy these posts enormously. Urstruly bhai, please write more.)

Reply Hari #28

Dear Hari,

“As regarding the previous posting of muslims not being allowed to hindu temples”

I do have a name, yaar. Did you miss it somehow?

“How I wish Muslims actually enter the temples on a devotional trip? Think about it. When CM Farouq Abdullah visited Venkataeshwara temple in Tirupathi/Andhra Pradesh, a lot of muslims from the muslim ummah were aghast and equated him to committing blasphemy by visiting a non-muslim place of worship!”

Look Maulana Hari, I actually think that visits to houses of worship are good for anybody who goes with the right attitude, and visiting places outside of your “own” tradition is as good for you – and also broadening.

Your response was clearly heartfelt, but you (I’m sure by mistake) neglected to address my point: you can enter ANY mosque or dargah in India. (How many times have you done this, btw?) Non-Hindus CANNOT enter some of the temples in India. If all Hindus are automatically so inclusive and tolerant, while all Muslims are so intolerant and exclusivist, what is that all about?

“Post 9/11,the world is getting smarter! They are telling Islamists and islamic countries, Sc#ew You!”

If you were getting smarter you logic would be better. (Just kidding. Aap ka logic agle janam mein hi sudharega...shayad...joke, yaar, joke…don’t be cross)

Best Regards
(yeh hua politeness, yeh hue manners...)

Zafar

Stuka, # 27

Precisely my point. If Sweden, Norway talk about self-determination in a broader sense, even in the case of Kashmir or say, Tamil Nadu, it is palatable. I have no problem if Kashmir were to join, Sweden, Norway as those countries` constitution guarantees EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, not EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MUSLIMS only.

The problem with Islamic Pakistan talking about self-determination for Kashmiris or for that matter any islamic country talking about self-determination for Chechens, Kashmir, Kosovo etc wants me to throw up.

Self-determination, from an islamic perspective always ends up, as ``islamic rule`` in any given country at the expense of, get this, NATIVE non-muslim population. Take Pakistan for instance, the islamic derived constitution is inherently wrong. The islamic constitution only allows EQUAL rights to muslims. Non-Muslims are excluded BY DESIGN, which is inherently non-democratic.

So, a Kashmiri ``Ahemedia`` for instance would be hauled away to jail just for reciting Islamic ``kalima``; similarly, a non-muslim kashmiri can NEVER aspire to become Pakistan`s president, prime-minister, etc.

I have heard a lot of vocalization from pakistani population that there is
only ``puppet`` Muslim Indian President. So, what? For starters, let me ask,
can Pakistan have ``puppet`` namke-vaste non-muslim Pakistan President?

If President Musharaff is President to ALL of Pakistan`s people, then
Why does Musharraf or for that matter former Prime Ministers greet
non-muslim Pakistanis for their religious holidays, say, Guru Nanak Birthday, Krishna Jayanthi? After all, these people are citizens of Pakistan, too? Right? even though they are a miniscule 3%.

As regarding the previous posting of muslims not being allowed to hindu temples; How I wish Muslims actually enter the temples on a devotional trip? Think about it. When CM Farouq Abdullah visited Venkataeshwara temple in Tirupathi/Andhra Pradesh, a lot of muslims from the muslim ummah were aghast and equated him to committing blasphemy by visiting a non-muslim place of worship!

Somehow, it has been ingrained in the Muslim Psyche that it is unbecoming of a muslim to visit a non-muslim temple, be it, sikh temple, jewish temple, hindu temple or greet non-muslims for their important religious holidays. It is only one-sided so far.

Prior to 9-11, the world community cared if muslims had problems and did what they could. Post 9-11, the world community has seen the shallowness of Islamists. Islamists seek justice for Chechens, Kashmiris, Bosnians, Palestinians but somehow they are silent on ``southern christian sudanese, Algerians(who are getting slaughtered), Tibetians, Taiwanese, Burmese?? Why? Pres Hosni Mubarak is vehemently opposed to splitting Sudan on ``Religious lines`` So, how come TNT doesn`t work there?

Post 9/11,the world is getting smarter! They are telling Islamists and islamic countries, Sc#ew You!

Zafar:

``So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.``

Sometimes your tone strikes me as small hearted, but I agree with this point. Islamist thought and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin - if we support freedom of conscience and equality we should support it consistently. Neither of these ideologies do. ``

Agreed with your point. Which is why I think an Indian Muslim has the right to criticize Hindutva, but when an Islamist Pakistani talks of fascist Hindus etc, I don`t know whether to laugh at their faces or to punch my fist in their skull. Again, I say ``Islamist Pakistani`` and not Pakistani alone, because I think there are more of the latter than the former. I could take criticism of the BJP from someone like Samina or Semipreciousme or even Field Marshal Romair (who I think is often unjustly maligned just because he is slightly right of center), a Urstruly or a Hobbyty, openly Islamist, telling us to be secular ...that is a joke and a half.

Reply Hari #22

``So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.``

Sometimes your tone strikes me as small hearted, but I agree with this point. Islamist thought and Hindutva are two sides of the same coin - if we support freedom of conscience and equality we should support it consistently. Neither of these ideologies do.

Buuuuuuuuut, Hari Mian, keep in mind that we`re from the subcontinent, we have a stake (and perhaps a say) in how things are and should be. Kya fayedah if we spend time chatting about places which we don`t know about or truly understand (like Saudi) instead of about our own countries?

``After all, a muslim can enter Ayodhya, but a non-muslim cannot enter Mecca. Am I correct?``

Correct, but as an Indian Muslim I can tell you there is not a SINGLE mosque or dargah in India where non-Muslims are not allowed. Cover your head and arms and you`re in. (I`ve even seen gori tourists wandering around the Heart Of Darkness, aka that clown Bukhari`s stomping ground, Delhi`s Jama Masjid.) On the other hand there are temples in India where non-Hindus are not allowed (and I`m not talking about ``non-Indians not allowed``, which is more common though equally unpleasant).

Regards

re:#22 by hari
Hari,
Hindutva, as espoused by BJP and Sangh Parivar, is a vague concept. There was a time i used to support this concept (i thought i understood the concept then). That was when i thought hindutva was being talked about in a civilisational way. All belong to a broader ``hindu`` civilisation (hindu here being referred in a civilisational and not religious tone) and hence are hindus. I thought BJP was saying all are same regardless of their religion.
Then came Gujarat riots and my eyes opened to what BJP was really doing. If all were ``hindus``, as BJP said initially, why was there a pogrom in Gujarat? Why were innocent muslims killed? If BJP and Sangh parivar had treated all as equal, i would have bought their hindutva argument. Not any more.
As things stand, hindutva is just a ``vote catching gimmick`` used by BJP. It is an ideology to polorise the Indian society, to unite all hindus (who are other wise divided along caste lines) under one banner viz hatred against muslims. Sooner Indians see thr` this bigotry, better it is for India.
The real leaders of India are the ones who are creating jobs, enhancing our prestige abroad. People like Narayana Murthy of Infosys.
Read what he has to say about secularism (url below). It is funny that the guest of honor on the occasion of his speech was Mr Joshi, one of the Trimurthys of this Hindutva ideology. He was seen fidgeting, doodling and biting his fingers while Mr Murthy strongly defended secularism right in front of him! Secularism is here to stay. People like Joshi can`t do a thing about it.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=240539
Sridhar

Hobby:

A lot of people are against ``Hindutva``.

My question:

1. Is it wrong to be a Hindu?

2. If ``Hindutva`` with its self-proclaimed goal of turning India into a Hindu Rashtra is bad(which I agree), then on the same token, then,

Is Islamization bad? Why support ``islamic countries`` then? After all these 61+ odd ``islamic`` countries have made their countries into ``islamic`` bastions at the expense of native non-muslims. Am I correct?

So, if Hindutva is a fascist ideology, then, please, all those championing secular ideals for India, also proclaim, Islamiat in Islamic countries as ``fascist`` ideology as well. Please champion for secularism for those 61 odd countries as well away from their islamic theology states.

After all, a muslim can enter Ayodhya, but a non-muslim cannot enter Mecca. Am I correct?

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I expected some originality in the nick from The Secretary,Govt. of India.As for the article, it is exactly what is expected from a Govt. servant.

pmishra2 # 17

``Fortunately, prejudice and a closed mind cannot be disguised by a display of five dollar words.``

Wise words. I hope you remember that in future.
Regards.

ugh, this hobbes is back with his polysyllabic inanities, now we are lost.

He will find some news item describing how some poor muslim indian was beaten by a policeman and favour us with a 1000-line proof of hindu perfidy.

Fortunately, prejudice and a closed mind cannot be disguised by a display of five dollar words. But I guess that isn`t going to stop him from trying....

Hindutva Speaks!

``At the heart of the Two Nation Theory laid religious communalism and after the creation of Pakistan it took a new shape in the form of the Islamic ideology of the State. Islamic ideology of Pakistan is thus the post partition face of the earlier religious communalism which had contributed to the creation of Pakistan. The conceptual antagonism against secularism now stands revealed as the consistent enmity against India. The Pakistani animus against India is not a post 1947 creation. Its roots run deep into the cultural history of the subcontinent.``

Religious communalism - such a wonderous, vague picture. Indians had no part in the creation of TNT - why butter won`t melt in their mouths. Them Mooselum had the gall to have a sense of nationalism and horror of horrors, they weren`t ready to tolerate what we just did in Gujjrat, to happen to them. See the victim is to blame, the victim did not wish to suffer us any further.
The animus of Pakistan? Again, no context - And the animus of the Indian? Kile I said butter doesn`t melt in their mouths - everyone else is responsibile for what happened to the Indian, except the Indian. And for the coup d`grace we have Pakistani animus has deep cultural roots - Duh! and the ``enslaved, debauched Indian``, his pride kicked out of his behind for a 1000 years - what of his animus?
Every kind of revision, obfuscation, abdication of responsibility is on the shoulders of the intellectuals of India. Cross border terrorism did not create the problems in captive kashmir - After 71 - the Indians have only themselves to blame for their failure. But it is easier to balme the ``Other`` - I understand - But not for much longer, the time for maturity and for difficult decisions is the burden of those who want a place in the sun.

I have wondered often, why the Pakistani establishment or even the populace, not condemned ``the mughal rule`` over India, beginning from Aurangazeb and going back to the muslim invasion of India.
In fact, the Pakistani establishment is keen on naming some of the imported North Korean missiles with names like ``ghauri``, etc who not only invaded India but plundered/pillaged India as well.

Why I am saying this; Pakistani establishment keeps lamenting about Muslim majority Kashmir. The arguement from the Pakistan has always been India being a non-muslim country cannot have any say over Muslim Kashmiris.

Then, proceeding with this arguement, then one would expect the same establishment to teach Pakistani population and children that the mughal period was indeed bad, since it was minority muslim establishment controlling an overall majority hindu/sikh population?

See my point? Why silence? Is it ok for minority muslim control over majority non-muslims, but not vice-versa?

A strong dose of Confucianism laced with Buddhism is the need of the hour for both Pakistan and India. The fatalism needs to be banished.

Too broad a brush there, bro.

I personally think we Indians do not develop a sufficiently fine-grained analysis of Pakistani populace. We often tend to lump all Pakistanis along with Pakistani generals and supporters, and reduce all Pakistani intellectual deliberations to militant and miltaristic ideologies. This is patently unfair, particularly to younger Pakistanis who decide to think for themselves. Such an approcah also overlooks the mirror images of all Pakistani evils that we have in developing our own country.

Individuals CAN make a difference. No matter what the context be, they CAN make a fresh start. And by change I don`t mean turning into a religious fundamentalist of any hue - green or orange, but change for the better, promoting a more humane and peaceful world.

That change is taking place, even as we bemoan the violent times we live in. When that change occurs in enough number of people - not a very distant prospect - peace will come to India-Pakistan.

``. Afterall what happened in Golden Temple, Babri Masjid and Gujrat does not really signal a start of dividend payment season. For dividends, society has to change, look at issues differently and think rationally. ``

This statement by Sameer says more than the entire article. I agree with PMishra. The article is very one-sided and paints two sides as Black and White.

The much reviled Baniya mentality will actually be helpful in putting Indo-Pak relations on an even keel.